There is an avreich in Yerushalayim who remains in beis medrash until 11:30pm, every day. He explains that he is not such a masmid, but his wife has instructed him to remain outside the home until their daughter, 12 is asleep as part of his wife’s new modesty standards, a member in good standing of the chareidi cult that has broken away from traditional standards of tznius.
According to a Kikar Shabbat report, a stormy protest was held on motzei Shabbos in Geula attended by about 200 outside the beis medrash of HaGaon Rav Aaron Rumfler, who the protestors state is the spiritual mentor for the father who recently delivered a baby from a family member, distancing himself from the hospital for modesty reasons. Protestors included persons whose family members have joined this new cult.
There are children from these families who don’t attend talmid torah, ages 3-to-10, as well as not receiving medical care, dental care; simply living in an isolated world in the name of tznius. The Eida Chareidis has recently announced its opposition (http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=108968) to this new trend, stating it is not in line with Torah, Halacha and the ruling of Gedolei Yisrael Shlita, but it appears the proclamation has done little or nothing to stop the trend.
Protestors announced they are opposed to the fanaticism of this group, which no longer represents chareidi Torah life, as well as being opposed to the rabbonim who mentor and foster this.
Kikar adds that regarding Rav Rumfler, a person close to him stated when the rav heard of the protest taking place outside, the rav stated “The shame and humiliation is a kapora for the aveiros”.
The person close to the rav added “the rav is not connected to the stories attributed to him. Many seeking chizuk visit the rav, and he does not instruct anyone to wear a shawl in this fashion nor does he tell them not to. The women in our community are not dressed with shawls and the rav is simply not connected to the shawl community. The Eida Chareidis did not come out against the rav, but it came out against the women who do not adhere to daas torah”.
“There was a woman who was totally covered. In the beginning, the husband dealt with it but in time, due to pressure from his family, he requested his wife stop dressing in that fashion. She refused. The couple took it to beis din, and were instructed to compromise for one another. She would wear a shawl under the condition she did not cover her face. The husband refused such a compromise.
“There are tales about us regarding immodesty but our women are dressed entirely covered up and no man can see her or look at her – and regarding these women there are tales of immodesty? Whoever comes to consult with the rav regarding tznius, he advises a stringent approach not to chas v’sholom transgress in this area which would impact the home and the children.”
The anonymous person is quoted as adding “A representative of the rav came to the Eida beis din to take part in a hearing, permitting him to present his side. Not only did they block him, thereby preventing him from entering, they also threatened him that if he did not turn around and leave they would beat him”.
(YWN – Israel Desk, Jerusalem)
Isn’t this the sick reek em cult??
Too bad these men don’t have their own sense to divorce their abusive wives. obviously cuz they are happy with their new way of life.
good luck to them.
Perhaps its a form of OCD
Guess this the other extreme when people are “snapping”.
Aaron Rumfler. At least we finally have the name of the person that is encouraging this meshugas. Leave all the superfluous titles out. He is not a gaon and he is not a Rav.
Let the Taliban go back to Afganisthan! Don’t bring your Shtick to our Pure Country of Israel!
Happy are those who dont read this. What a garbage article. Hearsay, allegations, unsubstantiated blah blah.
People need to stop seeing ghosts, and believing such grand nonsense. And if there really are 17 families doing x and y, do you have to use the same suggestive and leading writing styles as the goyishe news to bolster and project, beef up or give more umph to a story? You realise some people will hide in their closets, get ulsers, have bad days, and fret about ficticious thousands of taliban haredim, and rail against anyone who keeps more than just less than the minimum etc.
This what happens when people take the law into their own hands, unfortunately. Leave fanaticism to the Arabs, it’s what they’re best at. I hope this ‘trend’ blows over quickly and Rabbinical authorities put an end to this.
The world is going mad…
Asoi vie es goyisht sich, asoi yiddisht sich. The moslims have their fundamentalist extremism, including burkas, so it spills over to the Jews.
I also heard that there needs to be a balance in the world of tuma and kedusha. The tuma has gone to an extreme (same-gender marriages) so the kedusha goes to an extreme, which is not al pi Torah. Hashem wants people to be people, not angels. Hashamyim lashem veha’arets livnei adam.
You would think that the most tznius among the other nations of the world are the muslim women yet Chazal tell us 9/10 kavim of z’nus in this world is attributed to b’nei yishmoel. obviously covering the face is not a sign of a tznua. These misguided women are no different than the misguided orthodox women who start prayer groups, daven mincha/maariv with a minyin daily & learn gemoro. If they’re not following the g’dolim of the generation but rather what they’re hearts tell them they’re just misguided period.
Does YWN check their sources before they post a story?
Rav Rumpler’s family does not wear shawls. So I’m wondering how he becomes the “leader” of the shawl sect. Is it because he has a nutcase in his shul?
a disgrace that you make conclusions, when you know nothing more then a stupid article with some baseless assumptions. maybe have a better look at chofetz chaim, then call him and ask for mechila.
This represents the next logical step in overdoing tznius adherence. When you outlaw women’s faces in the frum media, the next step is outlawing women’s faces in public altogether.
I think we do not know the whole story. This is probably grossly exaggerated and blown out of proportion. I know people who dress more covered up than the norm (shawls, extra head covering etc.) yet they are otherwise very nice normal people, they just want to be very tsniudik.
Jakyweb beat me to it. When pictures of women, girls and even female toddlers are banned from publications – the message is being sent that female faces are untzniyus. When many frum articles don’t even name the women – always the daughter or wife of somebody – the same message is sent. It is logical to proceed from there to covering up this ‘untzniyus’ part of the body. The schools are ramming tzniyus down our girls throats. True – there are many women and girls in our community who dress less than what is preferable – but obviously the screaming and yelling and blaming all of Klal Yisroel’s tzaros on tzniyus is not working. I was brought up out of town and attended a Bais Yaakov where there were girls from many different backgrounds. As you can imagine there was a wide variance is the levels of tzniys observed. Our Hanhala was very smart in not imposing strict chumras on us. I don’t even really remember our teachers talking too much about tzniyus – it was just something we absorbed. We were never made to feel like sinners if we dressed a little less tzniyus than other girls. Our principal understood that girls have to feel pretty. We were not banned from wearing makeup in high school – it was never even mentioned. Some did and some didn’t. We were never told to cut our hair – a new mishegas We were showered with kind words and praise. And you know what – I would say that the positive message worked and most of the girls walked out of there dressing 100% tzniyus and creating Torahdik families.
This not what is happening in today’s Bais Yaakovs. Girls are rebelling against all the mussar and chumras. If girls are made to feel like non-entities – they will rebel even further.
live and let live. if you dont want to cover up like a cocoon then dont but who cares what the wacko next door does? when i see these crazy women who shave their heads after they get married it is JUST as crazy as these Taliban women but if that is what people choose to do who am i to tell them otherwise?
Aposhitermaidel, you are my hero
! Well put and very insightful. Frum media please stop erasing us!
re: “I don’t even really remember our teachers talking too much about tzniyus – it was just something we absorbed….Our principal understood that girls have to feel pretty.”
You can’t compare society x years and decades ago to society today, and, consequently, there has to be a different approach, though of course still with seichel.
Society did not resemble Sedom to the extent it does now. Since we live in that society, we are susceptible to its influences. There is a difference between dressing elegantly to “feel pretty” versus wanting to dress provocatively to feel pretty, and society has made the latter much more acceptable and its influence should not be under-estimated.
“This represents the next logical step in overdoing tznius adherence. When you outlaw women’s faces in the frum media, the next step is outlawing women’s faces in public altogether.”
This is a ridiculous assertion. By the same logic, since there are no pictures of women in tznius clothes it would then follow that women could no longer wear just tznius clothes but would have to wear a full-body shapeless bag. This is obviously not the case for the virtual entirety of Klal Yisrael.
I can think of no reason why a mainstream publication might be missing any editorial or news value by respecting a woman’s kavod of kal kivuda bas melech pinima and not showing pictures of women. Women still go shopping, run errands, etc. and that is not a contradiction to refraining from showing their pictures.
Like anything, there is a proper balance, and it is up to each individual to have a Rav who can wisely answer questions when there is a question of how best to maintain that balance. But the policy makes perfect sense. There are also women’s publications which do show women in them; but in a general-circulation medium, men have no need to be shown pictures of other women, as a simple matter of sensitivity.
These women wish to reach a higher degree of tznius than that of the standard women in meah sharim. I have in the past suggested that instead of wearing revealing clothing like shawls and taliban style cloaks, that they cover themselves with a refrigerator box with two holes punched out for the eyes and two for the hands, but few have taken my suggestion seriously. But I predict that this will be the wave to come.
To aposhitermaidel: First of all, let me say there is no such thing as a poshiter maidel or bachur. No such thing as a poshiter Yid. No such thing! We were chosen from all the other nations. We are created b’tzelem E-lokim. We are the collective Adam for which the entire creation was made. Everything in the word depends on our thoughts, words, and deeds. There is nothing poshut about that.
Secondly, hilchos tzniyus is not focused at turning our girls into non-entities. Quite the contrary. Diamonds are kept in a safe and/or are insured. Does that devalue them or make them into non-entities?
Thirdly, please let us know to which “chumros” you refer? That the shoke, (the thigh according to the Chofetz Chaim and the calf according to all the other poskim, needs be covered is certainly not a chumra. It is in fact a din min ha’Torah. Short hair is nothing new either. The Magain Avrohom already clearly brings that girls’ hair must be tied back – in a pony tail/braid or cut short. That the collar bone must be covered is also not a chumra. Tight-fitting clothes outlining the separation of the eivarim is not a chumra. Pants, short skirts, are those chumros?
No girl or boy should be allowed to feel second class, unloved, a yotzei dofen, etc. Not providing them with a sense of value is inexcusable. Not providing them a clear set of moral guidelines and limitations for HaShem’s royal family likewise inexcusable and. is the surest way to devalue the Jewish soul.
I dont understand what is the big deal here, and all the protests and psaks against these women, and the latest articles and rabbis speaking against it. who cares? let them dress and look however they want, why does it bother you? if they want to look like a black garbage bag from head to toe and look like fools then just ignore them and let them look however they want weather its right or wrong weather you like it or not, why is it bothering everyone and becoming such a big issue?
I have no doubt in my mind that if all these women that are practicing this new trend of tznius, were doing the exact oposite, becoming more parutz by dressing immodestly, no one whould have said or done a darn thing! there are so many young girls and women who are getting off the derech all the time in our midst and all over our “frum” communities, girls hang out with boys and men, and do things and go places that is assur to do, and the way they dress too, has any body said anything or done anything about it? any protests organized against it? any rabbis came out to condemn these people publicly like they did in this case? any articles the yeshiva world posted about them? of course not, we try to either believe that they dont exist or just burry them under the covers. lets just forget about the burka thing, let them do whatever they want, and stop making a big deal out of it, there are greater issuring that people are oiver on, and we have better things to deal with.
#13 jakyweb – I think you are taking your statement to an extreme. I have never heard of any issur of showing a woman’s face in the media. Rather it is just an excepted practice among the Jewish media.
These women, however, are not acting in accordance to excepted practice. The levush that they are trying to wear in public is not what’s treif about this, but rather the fact that it is doing the exact opposite that it is intended for. Instead of removing eyes from them it is attracting them towards them. Thus they are actually acting as immodest as the women they are trying to counter balance. It is not, however, the next step from banning women’s pictures in the media.
#15 aposhitermaidel – you raise some good points. However, in our days we were not battling priztus to the extend that it is today. Thus a more subtle approach was in order. Today, we must confront this issue head on. We need to discuss this issue with our daughters and not just hope that they will follow our examples.
I do agree with you on two points though.
1) The teachers of today are not building the relationship with their Talmidot that existed in our times. They are grossly lacking as true loving role models and thus their words are going in one ear and out the other.
2) The approach on tznius is grossly incorrect. Instead of teaching the penimius of tznius they are focusing on the chitzonius. It is important to teach the guidelines of levush, however, it is more important on explaining the reasoning and beauty of being a tzinua. That is not being taught properly in my opinion.
“Hearsay, allegations, unsubstantiated blah blah.” Take a walk through Meah Shearim and you will see these crazies all over the place. Why do we have to give a hechsher to every mishagus around? The Rabbonim of Yerushalayim have said this is nonsense. It is not just those who “keep more than just less than the minimum etc.” BTW there is nothing wrong with the minimum either. The halacha makes certain specific demands of us. If we want to go beyond what is required, the norm, that is up to each individual but making chumras into the norm is not needed, wanted or warranted.
you have some very valid points of what i call the “nisht syndrome”,something alot of our children are being educated about these days. Instead of presenting something in an indirect way, it is always with the “no, your are not allowed to or something like it’s ossur”. For example in one very frum school, the children at a young age will get a lecture, in Yiddish that you are not allowed to look at magazines or T.V. Of course this makes the children curious and they do go to find out what is in some magazines. If you doubt me, try dropping by a library and see who is roaming there and looking at indecent material.
We went to B.Y. and had such as Rabbi Godlewskly Z”L and if a girl perhaps was wearing sleeves a drop short he would comment
(sorry, my screen jumped)
“oy it’s too hot here i see, let’s open a window” and the weather may have been freezing winter that day!
The bottom line is that we have to present things in and objective way and not use negative words so freely, only in emergency cases as when a child runs into the street or wants to play with the burning stove.
To number 23. You wrote. “I have never heard of any issur of showing a woman’s face in the media. Rather it is just an excepted practice among the Jewish media.”
I want to point out that there are those who do in fact believe (I dont know why, what their sources are who who issued such a ruling) it is forbidden. When Rebbetzin Pam was nifteres a frum publication in Brooklyn, NY ran several articles on the Rebbetzin with an accompanying photo (a head shot). The outcry against this publication (they printed several in their letters section) for its breech against tznius was rather loud. Perhaps people think it is assur because the publications have taken on such a practice. A lie repeated often enough, becomes the truth.
How come no one gets up in arms about Jewish people who dress immodestly on supposedly frum people?(very tight maternity clothes for example)