20 Responses

1. Barak is 100% correct. Maybe the right wing doesn’t want to hear it, but Israel must make some territorial concessions in order to preserve itself as a Jewish and democratic state. The current situation is dangerous and unsustainable in the long-term. If the Palestinians give up on the idea of an independent state in the West Bank and Gaza, they’ll start demanding full citizenship rights in an Arab-majority unitary state from the river to the sea. This demand will win them a lot of sympathy in the West. Israel will become politically toxic and its largest trade partners will eventually start imposing sanctions and boycotts, with devastating consequences. Israel has a very trade-dependent economy and cannot afford to ignore the opinion of the “international community.”

   This is the long-term situation that Israel faces on its present course. Ariel Sharon realized it, so why can’t more people on the Zionist right?

2. #1 – You could NOT be MORE wrong!!!
   The answer is NOT to get rid of ANY part of our G-d given Eretz Yisrael!!!
   It IS to get rid of the arabs living there!!!
   Rav Kahane Ztzvk”l explained the demographic problem DECADES ago, and in a debate with Olmert (which can be seen on Youtube) Olmert tells him he’s a racist and that this problem does not exist and is not worth thinking about!
   Ironically, it was the same Olmert who claimed that the need for the expulsion of the Jews from Gush Katif was because of the very demographic problem he denied in the debate with R’ Kahane.
   “Sharon realized it”??? Sharon has been punished by HaSh-m for it!!!
   Olmert realized it? He is out of office with many criminal investigations pending against him!!!
   Dan Chalutz (the army Chief-of-Staff who took over to do the expulsion when Bugie Yaalon refused to do it)realized it? He was subsequently removed from his post when he did such an embarrassingly horrible job in the war in Lebanon.
   Israel is “am l’vadad yishkon” a nation that dwells ALONE, but alone with HaSh-m!
   The derech to bitachon for the Land is Bitachon in HaSh-m!
   Anybody or any government that thinks the way to success, or to peace, is to give away any part of Artzeinu HaKedosha needs to have their individual (or collective) head/s (and souls) examined!!!
   No frum Jew should ever speak the words “but you have to be realistic!” Yiddishkeit, from the time of Avraham Avinu (the Ivri, the UNrealistic tzadik who stood apart from the whole rest of the world!) right up to this very moment is the exact opposite of “being realistic”, because the only REAL “realism” is doing the will of HaSh-m!

3. #2 – You could NOT be MORE wrong!!!

   Eretz Yisroel is not the State of Israel. The State of Israel is a political government and national entity. Eretz Yisroel is a section of land. “Supporting Eretz Yisroel” is not the same as supporting the State of Israel. Eretz Yisroel was there before the State of Israel and will be there after the State of Israel is gone. I don’t even know what the phrase “support Eretz Yisroel” means – how do you “support” land? Does it need your “support”? Governments need people’s support, but thats not Eretz Yisroel youre talking about.

   Eretz Yisroel exists outside the State of Israel – southern Lebanon is Eretz Yisroel too, as holy as any of the streets in the State of Israel. Don’t forget to “support” southern Lebanon when you’re “supporting” Eretz Yisroel!

   And not all of the State of Israel is Eretz Yisroel – Elat is chutz la’aretz. It is not more holy than New York City. A lot less holy, probably, considering the amount of Torah in New York City and that in Elat.

   So if you have two Jews, one vacationing in Elat and the other in Lebanon, the one in Lebanon (parts of it anyway) has to take off Terumah and Maaser, while he basks in the holiness of Eretz Yisroel, while the Jews vacationing in Elat is in the State of Israel, but is basking in nothing at all.

   It is important to understand this.

   Living in Eretz Yisroel has nothing to do with Zionism. Having a Government, a State of Israel does. And while living in Eretz Yisroel is a wonderful thing (for some people; for others it is a bad thing – depends on how you behave. After all, you are in the King’s Back Yard), it is equally wonderful whether the land is governed by the Turks or the Arabs or the English or the Lebanese or the Chinese.

   In fact, all of the above nations are allowed to govern Eretz Yiroel in Golus. The only ones that aren’t allowed to are Jews. In fact, the Torah says that if Jews govern Eretz Yisroel, or even TRY to govern it, as a punishment, Hashem will allow Jews to “be hunted down like animals in the field.”

   That happens to be the worst punishment described anywhere in the Torah. Killed and hunted like animals. Those are the words. “ani matir es basarchem k;tzvios uk’ailos hasadeh” – “I will permit your flesh [to the goyim] like game in the fields”.

   Jews hunted and killed like animals – the punishment described in the Torah for a movement to create a Jewish State of Israel during golus. And certainly for actually creating one.

   Thats the problem with Zionism. (One of the many problems, actually). It has nothing to do with the holiness of Eretz Yisroel of living in it. On the contrary, it pollutes Eretz Yisroel and strips it of holiness.

4. To #3;

   The flaw in your argument is that once the modern state was established, to now dismantle it would cause the Arabs to flow in enmass and start slaughtering Jews left and right, men women children.

   It would be another holocaust.
   Further with a now dismantled “extinct” Jewish state, nazilibs all over the world would declare open season on Jews on a scale reminiscent of Nazi Germany during Crystal Nacht because they would know that Jews now have absolutely nowhere to go.

   I’m sure you understand that pikuach nefish comes before just about all other mitzvohs including the commend not to have a Jewish state,in Galus.

   Now someone might argue that this massacre would not happen, but there are plenty of arguments to say it would.

   Unless it could be proven otherwise beyond a shadow of a doubt, I (in my laymens non halachic opinion) ‘think’ a rav would probably pasken that halacha says we are under strict obligation not to take the chance with even one life let alone, potentially millions of lives.

   I think that if everyone who is so adamant that Israel should not exist would focus on Ahavas Yisroael such as not participating in and actively going against Loshon Hara (including when it is about “the dummy” or “the nebbish” or whoever it is ‘popular’ to talk against in any particular group; and if children were taught not to bully others even when it makes them unpopular with the “cool crowd”, that woudl go far more toward serving H-sh-m and following Torah then agitating for something that could G-d forbid bring massive destruction on Klal Yisroael.

5. #3 – I would be the first one to agree that the so-called “government” in Israel is a disgrace and not at all what HaSh-m wants of us.
   Nevertheless…
   A) The Gemara tells us that when the nations of the world declare that we have a right to return to our land, that is the time that we DO have that right! That came to pass with the Balfour Declaration and the 1947 UN partition plan.
   B) After 2,000 years of living in chutz la’Aretz, and immediately following the Shoah, where one third of all of world Jewry was murdered, and our major Torah centers destroyed, at that low, low, low point, we suddenly find ourselves with a State of Israel (no, not a Torah State, but a state). If you can’t see the hand of HaSh-m in that, you are blind!
   C) In 1967, less than 20 years after the State comes into being, and after 2,000 of not having a united Jerusalem in our hands, due to a miraculous war (even according to the goyim) in which FIVE arab armies who outmanned the Jewish army more than 30 to 1 and outgunned the Jewish army by a similar margin, promised to annihilate us, the IDF was victorious in a history-making SIX day war which returned all of Jerusalem to Jewish control. If you do not see the hand of HaSh-m in this, you must be blind!!!
   D) Does the “state” of Israel have numerous SERIOUS problems with the way things are done there? Absolutely, without any doubt! Do we need to see MAJOR, dramatic changes to make Israel the country HaSh-m wants it to be? Yes, yes, and yes!!! You are obviously equating Zionism with secular Zionism, which for all purposes is dead or dying. But TRUE Zionism has its basis in our Torah and is very much alive and growing. If you don’t realize HaSh-m’s role in the return of our people to our Land, if you don’t see the important role of yishuv Eretz Yisrael for the Jewish people, you are missing out on a CRUCIALLY important dimension of Yiddishkeit that one can never experience in chutz la’Aretz, (not even in Brooklyn or Monsey!)

6. #5 — The Balfour Declaration was no heter to violate what I referenced in my previous commnet regarding “ani matir es basarchem k;tzvios uk’ailos hasadeh”.

   Additionally, ten years following the Balfour Declaration, when asked to clarify his opinion, Hagoen HaRav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld ZTVK”L explained:

   Back in Pressburg (under the Chasam Sofer ZTVK”L and then under the Ksav Sofer ZTVK”L), every year a “Purim Rav” was selected. It is forbidden to pasken halacha even after a little drink. On Purim, everyone drinks so who will pasken an urgent sheilah? This is where the Purim Rav steps in. The Purim Rav, someone who was familiar with every-day halachos and who would remain sober on Purim, was “on call” in the event that an urgent question came up. R’ Yosef Chaim ZTL then said that this is how he views his purpose in the current times. After the Balfour Declaration came out and the Zionists began gaining control over Jewish matters in E”Y, many Jews, rabbanim included, became inebriated by the sheker-dik joy that arose. The yearning for Geulah was warped into viewing Zionism as the beginnning of Geulah. But HKB”H, explained R’ Yosef Chaim, has granted him the wisdom to remain sober and to not get swept up in the toxic winds of Zionism. He stated that in our history, there has never subsisted such a horrible threat to the existence of Klal Yisroel as Zionism, a movement that wishes to destroy our mesorah from Sinai. R’ Yosef Chaim continued: someone once asked him why he felt no happiness over the Balfour Declaration. He replied: “The drunk also wonders why everyone else isn’t joining him in his revelry. I am not drunk, and therefore I cannot rejoice”. (Five Great Leaders; page 83; by Rav Shimon Finkelman shlita).

7. Volvie – Since, apparently you DO deny the hand of HaSh-m in all the multitude of miracles on a daily basis, that have come along with the return of millions of Jews to Eretz Yisrael, I trust you would never visit Israel since without the “Zionist” IDF there to protect you, the yishmaelim would undoubtedly cut you up into little pieces.
   You have to choose. Either HaSh-m IS actively involved in the beginnings of the rebirth of our nation in our land (for example, kibutz galuyot, the miraculous victories in wars, the miraculous protection from the Iraqi Scud missiles, etc., etc., etc.) OR He is NOT – in which case, as I said, you will, chas v’chalila, have to depend on the “Zionist” IDF to protect you.

8. #7 — Your accusation is against Hagoen HaRav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld ZTVK”L, as all I have done in my previous comment is quote him.

   Additionally, do you deny the hand of Hashem in the holocaust? Hashem’s hand is in everything in this world, good or bad. The fact something occurred does not mean it was “good” (i.e. the holocaust and the medinah.)

9. #8 – I have not made an “accusation” against anyone.
   I DO believe the millions of Jews coming home from all over the world is an act of HaSh-m and is GOOD.
   I DO believe not getting annihilated, as everyone predicted, in the wars in 1948, 1967, 1973, the Gulf War, and over the last 62 years in general, are acts of HaSh-m, and are GOOD.
   I DO believe that when HaSh-m gives us a VERY GOOD gift like Eretz Yisrael, and a world situation that allows us to be able to go and live there, it is a “slap” in HaSh-m’s “face” to say, “no thanks, I’d rather live in America”, (or England, or wherever, for whatever reason).
   And… though I, as mere basar v’dam, am not able to say that the Holocaust was good, we know that ultimately, in the grand plan of HKB”H, who is only MAITEEV, EVERYTHING is good, whether we can see and understand it or not.
   As far as the way the “medina” is run, it COULD be VERY GOOD if VERY GOOD Yidden would stop making excuses, and would get up, go there and MAKE things VERY GOOD.

10. #9 — Based upon the quote of Hagoen HaRav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld ZTVK”L you commented “you DO deny the hand of HaSh-m in all the multitude of miracles”. That is defined as an accusation by you against Hagoen HaRav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld ZTVK”L.

    More Jewish blood has been spilled in the name of the medina, than all anti-semitic acts across the world combined during the same time period.

    See my comment # 3 regarding the very big difference between living in Eretz Yisroel and ruling the land.

    “And… though I, as mere basar v’dam, am not able to say that the Holocaust was good, we know that ultimately, in the grand plan of HKB”H, who is only MAITEEV, EVERYTHING is good, whether we can see and understand it or not.”

    I agree with you there. You can apply that same principle to the medina.

    “HaRav MiBrisk”, vol. 3 page 322:

    “Chazal teach,” said the Brisker Rav, that after Matan Torah, the act of the Yetzer Horah was successful, to make the Jews sin with the Egel.

    “Success such as this,” he continued and said, “like this, that they were able to create the Medinah, such success he [the Satan] did not have throught all the generations sicne the Egel.

    “The Brisker Rav held the poition that this Gezeirah of the establishment of the Medinah, is not merely another suffering among the sufferings that befall Klal Yisroel during Golus. But rather, it is a specific suffering that was that was awakened from Heaven specifically in our time, specifically on the people in this generation, because of their sins.”

    Consider what the Brisker Rav once said.

    It was in ‘48 when the state of Israel was established. The Brisker Rav got so ill from the fact that they created Israel that he had to stay in bed.

    The Chazon Ish heard about this and he sent a message to the Brisker Rav:

    “Dont worry Brisker Rav, gezeirah avidah libatlei” (Hashem can nullify the and decree – Hashem will make sure Israel is dismantled).

    The Brisker Rav sent back to the Chazon Ish: “When is it true that gezeirha avidah debatlei – that bad decrees are annulled- that is only when the people realize it is a bad descree. But I am afraid,” he said, “that this bad decree, the people think is a good decree, and so I am afraid that it will be here for a very long time.”

    In other words, the solution to the State of Israel tragedy is to realize that the State of Israel is a tragedy, and then hashem will help us out of it.

    Hashem doenst take away problems unless you want Him to. And you cant want Him to unless you realize it’s a problem.

    So understanding why Zionism is bad is itself the solution to Zionism.
    _____

    The Chazon Ish on The State of Israel

    Here is an excerpt from the Sefer Maaseh Ish, a very reliable biography of the Chazon Ish, which was gone over by many students of his, as well as people like Rav Chaim Kanievsky shlita (who actually commented on some portions. His comments are included in the sefer):

    “His Position on the Medinah:

    “This is not the aschalta d’geulah but rather the sof golus!” was what he said to the confused upon the establishment of the Medinah . . .

    Here’s more:

    “A certain rabbi suggested to him that they should permit making marriages on 5 Iyar [which comes out on sefirah]. . . the rabbi admitted that in honor of Yom Haatzmaut he wanted to suspend the aveilus of sefirah. Our Rebbi [teh Chazon Ish] answered him aggresively: “Perhaps we should instead make it into a fast day!”

    “On 5 Iyar, 1953, when he was honored to be a sandek [at a bris]. he commanded the congregation to say Tachanun in his Bais Hamedrash, to specifically do the opposite of them (”kidei lehotzi melibam”), and also so that they should not say that they did not say Tachanun on 5 Iyar. Rav Chaim [Kanievsky] shlita added: He said that he had 3 Brisim in Shul that day and he commanded them to say tachanun .

    And also note the other positions of the Chazon Ish ZTV”L ZY”A that I quoted above (i.e. Re: 5 Iyur and the bris; tachanun; marriages; fasting.) The Chazon Ish (found in Maaseh Ish Vol. 1 on the section about the holocaust) said, “There are indeed religious apikorsim nowadays — these apikorsum are those who say that the Gedolim were responsible for the Jews dying in Europe (i.e. WWII), and those who celebrate Yom HaAtzmaut.”
    ________

    Rav Hutner ZT’L (transcribed in an article in the Jewish Observer of Oct ’77 by Rav Yaakov Feitman based on talks by Rav Hutner) placed a lot of blame for the Holocaust very directly on the Zionist movement.

    R’ Elchonon Wasserman ZT’L writes in print (Kovetz Maamarim) that the leadership of the Zionist movement were Amalekim no less than the Yevsektsia in Stalinist Russia and that the Land will inevitably vomit them out. His son R’ Simcha, zatzal, refused to join calls to participate in elections in spite of great pressure that was put on him to do so (and himself always made a point of being abroad during elections).

    Reb Elchonon Wasserman, zt’l:

    “We must emphasize and declare the position of our holy Torah in order to banish any confusion of ideas. Inasmuch as there are Jews who are Torah-observant who say that a Jewish State would be the “beginning of the Redemption,” we must inform them of the position of our Torah that this is nothing less than the beginning of a new Exile! What do I mean? After all, Jews have been living in Exile for some two thousand years, so how can this be a “beginning” of a new Exile? My intention is to expose the so-called Jewish Communists. An Exile such as this has never existed until today. None of us can even describe such an exile, an Exile under Jews! Only Jews from Russia have a slight sense of this situation, even though the regime there is not a “Jewish” one. One of the great rabbis of this generation recently told me that the term “beginning of the Redemption” in reference to the Zionist movement makes his hair stand on end!

    “However, it could be said that it does bring the Redemption closer. The great Rabbi Eliyahu of Vilna (who lived in the 18th century) stated (see Kol Yerushalayim, 22 Elul 1937) that effect of Jewish suffering is that it brings the Redemption closer, and because the misfortune of a “Jewish State” would bring greater suffering upon us, it could be said that this brings the Redemption closer, as was the case in Egypt, that the oppression of bondage hastened the Redemption.”
    _______

    Rav Shach ZT”L:

    “We see clearly how idea has gone bankrupt. Where they thought that through this [State] Jewish respect will be increased among the nations, eliminating anti-Semitism, the opposite it true. The hate has grown even greater, and all the rallies and protests are purposeless and totally useless. For at whom are they directing their protests? At those who hate us! For the rule is “Esav soneh es Yaakov”.” (Rav Shach, Letters, I:1)
    ___
    A letter from Rav Chaim Ozer ZT’L to Chief Rabbi Dr. Guedemann of Vienna:

    “Your honour knows that in the matter of the Zionists and the Mizrachi, I am in correspondence with the Gaonim of this generation, and all of them, have decided that Zionism is the work of the Sitro Achro with all its seductions and incitements, for the purpose of turning Israel from the good path and, that a great danger arises from it for all the Congregation of the Exile—Heaven forbid—and that all those who venture to defend the Zionists, are no better than they.”

    “To our shame, some rabbis in our country have joined the Zionists and have founded an organization under the name of Mizrachi, and they have rejected all the rebukes of the Gedoilei Hatorah, and they pretend to be men with respect for the Word of the L-rd.”

    “They have founded committees and it is likely that they will turn to your honour. I am therefore informing your honour that all the Gedoilim in our land are perplexed at the matter. In the books of the Poskim there is no suggestion that it is our duty to found a kingdom. On the contrary, our sages, the Tenoim and the Amoiroim, have expressly forbidden this. These rabbis of the Mizrachi have no faith, and do not trust in the salvation of the L-rd and their minds have become deranged into believing that in a state founded by the hands of man there will be peace for us.”

    “Chaim Ozer Grodzinski”

    Of course there were rabbis, especially in those days, who held otherwise, but the Gedolei HaDor – the greatest of the generation who Klal Yiroel collectively relies on for guidance – were on one side. The Brisker Rav, the Chazon Ish, Rav Ahron Kotler, Rav Elchonon Wasserman and Rav Chaim Ozer and those in that category were all unanimous. They did not consider the other side even a legitimate shitah – so why should we?

    This issue is not an easy one even for Talmidei Chachamim. It took the greatest of the generation – thank G-d Hashem sent us such great leaders – to point out the terrible mistake in Zionism, religious or otherwise. Its not like you can look it up in the Mishna Brura – it invovles a deep and broad understanding of Halachah and Agada. Boruch Hashem the Gedolei HaDor were on the same page with this.

    Rav Elchonon Wasserman ZT’L, in Ikvesa D’Meshichah says that “Zionism is avodah zorah; religious Zionism is just avodah zorah together with religion.”

11. Without being at all disrespectful to any of the Gedolim you quoted, I could respond to all of them but don’t have the time now to write a book as you did.
    Suffice it to say that at least part of our disagreement is over the understanding of terminology.
    I totally agree that the “state” such as it is, i.e the government, and the way things are run, IS a disaster. Nevertheless, if you try to imagine the low spiritual and physical and emotional ebb the Jewish people were at, after the Holocaust, it is impossible for any thinking, seeing Jew to not realize that it was HaSh-m’s hand that brought about a renewal of the Jewish people in Eretz Yisrael, and miraculously saved them in war after war after war.
    Needless to say, I am not talking at all about modern “secular Zionism” which of course has no basis in anything.
    You wrote of there being a difference between living in Eretz Yisrael and recognizing the State of Israel. That is very nice, – in theory. But the fact is that if one is living in, or even visiting, Eretz Yisrael, that is only possible because there is a state (as bad as it may be) and an IDF that makes that possible. Without it, it would not be possible. And if you will tell me that it is BECAUSE of the state that relations are so bad with the yishmaelim, I will remind you of massacres of Jews by the arabs that took place long before there was a state. You might want to look up an organization called NILI whose purpose was actually to BRING IN the British (before the british mandate started) because living under the moslem Ottoman Turks was so bad for Yidden.
    STOP and really think of what would happen not only to the Jews IN Israel, but to Jews all over the world, if, chalila, Israel was destroyed! If you can imagine a nightmare scenario like that, do you think that THAT is what HaSh-m wants? – OR the alternatives, to keep things the terrible way they are now, OR- just maybe he wants Torah Jews from all over the world to go home to the land he promised us and make it Eretz Yisrael al pi Torat Yisrael to prepare for the coming of Mashiach.

12. Wow, you could knock over all the Gedolim zt”l — from The Chazon Ish, The Brisker Rov, HaRav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld ZTVK”L, Rav Hutner zt”l, Rav Elchonon Wasserman zt’l, Rav Shach zt”l, The Satmar Rebbe ztvlk”l, Rav Chaim Ozer Grodzinski zt”l, etc. I’m really impressed!! Are you a lamed vuv’nik that no one knows of, and knows all the secrets that all these Gedolim never were zoicha to reach your madreiga in understanding!? WOW!!

    There were pograms and killings by all goyim always, in both Christian and Arab lands. Yet the Arabs relative to the Christians were relatively benign, despite various incidents throughout our history of living in Arab lands. Zionism, beginning in the late 1800’s, radicalized the Arab world against Judaism to the wanton murderous state they are now in. Prior to that they treated us far better than the Christian lands. We are in golus no matter where we lived, so it was never “good” for us anywhere.

13. I NEVER said anything about “knocking over” ANY (never mind “ALL”) of the Gedolim.
    To the contrary I have the utmost respect for all of them, and I would never disrespect ANY of them.
    What we are doing here is playing with semantics.
    The only reason you can get away with saying that moslem violence was “benign” compared to that of the xtians is because most Jews had much less exposure to moslems than we had to xtians. Jews living in arab countries or in Eretz Yisrael (even way before the advent of modern Zionism) experienced plenty of blood curdling murders and massacres by our dear “cousins”.
    Zionism did not have to “radicalize the arab world”. Perhaps you forget that the Torah called Yishmael a “pereh adam” at the time when HE lived, – some 4,000 years ago. Was that because Avraham Avinu was a Zionist living in Eretz Yisrael and he radicalized him?
    I don’t know how old you are, and I don’t know if you have ever personally experienced any serious anti-semitism in your life, but let me tell you that it is not for no reason that Jews from ALL OVER THE WORLD are waking up and going home to Eretz Yisrael. It does not make me happy to tell you that things are going to get a lot worse here in THIS goldena medina and we are already on that track.
    I have already said numerous times that Israel is VERY far from what it should be, but with all its MANY faults, and whether you want to call it the state of Israel, or Eretz Yisrael, it is still OUR country, our ONLY country where we will always be AT HOME.
    Furthermore – It IS where YOU will run to (despite all the quotes from our Gedolim) when things “hit the fan” here in the goldena medina.

14. You said “I could respond to all of them” (The Chazon Ish, The Brisker Rov, HaRav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld ZTVK”L, Rav Hutner zt”l, Rav Elchonon Wasserman zt’l, Rav Shach zt”l, The Satmar Rebbe ztvlk”l, Rav Chaim Ozer Grodzinski zt”l, etc.) As if YOU could refute the Gedolei Yisroel ZTVK”L.

    I said that we are in golus, and in golus it was never a pretty picture ANYWHERE. Nevertheless, the advent of Zionism (in the late 1800’s onwards) radicalized the Arab world into a bloodthirsty crusade against all Jews. Prior to that relations overall between Jews and Arabs were relatively peaceful the vast majority of the time.

    And who made you into a prophet that you can predict that it will be more dangerous in the future outside the State for Jews than inside the State? The fact is that Jews are currently far more likely to be subject to terrorism, murderer, and war injuries and deaths INSIDE the State of Israel than outside. AND the fact is it is the Israelis who are emigrating out of the medina (take a look around NYC and see with your eyes how many Israelis moved just there.)

15. My final comment.
    I do not need to be a prophet to know that galus was intended by HaSh-m as a PUNISHMENT and NOT as a better or safer alternative to living in Eretz Yisrael.
    By the way, did you forget the some 3,000 people killed here in New York in ONE day (9/11/01) which included many Jews, as well as shooting incidents in Jewish centers and synagogues in several other locations around the U.S. over the last few years?
    “The fact is that Jews are currently” experiencing more anti-semitic acts in Europe AND the U.S. than they have in DECADES (you can check the statistics).
    “The fact is that” far more Jews are making aliyah than there are Israelis making yerida (you can check the statistics).
    -Hatzlacha.

16. I’m surprised you need to be advised that the Yidden living in E. Yisroel are living in the same galus as the Yidden living in Chutz L’Aretz.

    You still skirted the fact there is greater anti-Jewish terrorism currently in the State than the Jews experience outside of the State.

    As far as the statistics…

    The Ministry of Immigration and Absorption released in April 2008 its estimate that 700,000 Israelis were living abroad, of those, 450,000 were estimated to be living in the US and Canada – about 12 percent of the general Jewish population of Israel!

    Only 19,264 people immigrated to Israel in 2006, down nine percent from 2005. It is the lowest number of immigrants recorded since 1988.

    According to the Central Bureau of Statistics, since 2002 – the year in which the major wave of immigration from the former Soviet Union came to an end – there has been a consistent downward trend in immigration. In 2006, immigration was down to 1980s levels, during which time 9,000-24,000 people immigrated annually.

    In 2006, only 2.7 people immigrated for every 1,000 veteran residents. In 1990-91, at the height of immigration from the former Soviet Union, that figure stood at an average of 35 per 1,000, and from 1990-2001, it averaged 17 per 1,000. Starting in 2003, that figure fell to below 3.8 per 1,000 – also the rate during 1980-89, the period of lowest immigration in Israel’s history.

17. I really don’t have the patience to pursue this further.
    My final comments to you are…
    -Your figure of the number of Israelis living abroad is a total number that have emigrated over the last sixty years!
    -Your figure for olim is only up to 2006. The numbers in 2007, 2008 and 2009 are substantially higher!
    -And finally, if you really think that Berlin, – I mean New York, is Jerusalem, you stay here.
    There is definitely a precedent for doing just that. Just remember what the result of that kind of thinking was.
    You know, during the Holocaust it was understandable that people didn’t believe it would happen or was happening, since there was no historical precedent for it. Nothing like it on such a scale had ever happened before. It amazes me that NOW that there IS a precedent for it, people STILL prefer to hide their heads in the sand.
    And lastly… read the awesome sefer – Eaim Habanim S’maicha by R’ Teichtal (I may have spelled the English incorrectly, though the book IS available in English – with that name). You will NOT regret it.

18. Incorrect once again.

    They aren’t my figures. I simply provided Israeli government statistics, which ironically enough were reported as I presented them in Haaretz — a Zionist publication. And that stat in particular, is of the total number of Israelis currently living outside Israel to the total number of Israelis currently living inside Israel.

    The statistics were released in mid-2008 by the Israeli government. There is zero evidence that it changed directions in more recent months. Indeed, the immigration trend has been downwards now for a decade. So there is reason to believe the numbers are continuing downwards.

    As far as Rabbi Teichtal, he was declared by the Lubavitcher Rebbe, and quoted in the family’s introduction to the sefer, to have actually been “very far from Zionism”. And he NEVER advocated in his sefer (or anywhere else for that matter) for a Jewish State or sovereignty. He argued in favor of building up the land, but you have to understand that part of the Zionist propaganda is that they like to confuse the issue of living in Eretz Yisroel with Zionism, even though the two have nothing to do with each other. Zionism – the Zionism that was opposed – means having a sovereign state there during golus. That issue has nothing to do with “ahavas eretz yisroel” or “eretz yisroel” at all. So they took Rabbi Teichtel’s book and somehow decided, despite clear pronouncements – that it somehow justifies their position.

    You ought to read the magnificent Sefer by Hagoen Harav Chaim Michel Dov Weissmandel ztvk”l “Min Hameitzar” (The Unheeded Cry), which also has a translation from the original Loshon Kodesh to English by Artscroll. You should also read the holy writings on this subject in the (English) Seforim by Hagoen HaRav Avigdor Miller ztvk”l.

19. Do NOT visit Israel, because like it or not, you WILL be supporting and making use of the dreaded Zionists from the moment you land at the airport, to the hotel you stay at, the restaurants you eat at, the taxis you travel in, the electricity you use, the cell phone you speak on, even the holy sites you visit (like the Kotel, Kever Rachel, Maarat HaMachpela which are all heavily guarded by the Zionist IDF) etc. etc. etc.
    Stay here in the USA, and when you hear or read of
    all the troubling things going on in Eretz Yisrael, know that if YOU and those who think like you would get up and go there (instead of making such heilige excuses for why they don’t) you could have helped change things there for the better, but didn’t. You could have made a huge Kidush HaSh-m, but didn’t. I’m sure when you go upstairs at 120, HaSh-m will understand you preferred to raise your family in New York Ir HaKodesh, rather than being in Eretz Yisrael with all those Zionists like Rav Elyashiv, Rav Kanievsky, Rav Scheinberg, etc.

    Hatzlacha Rabah. noa noa sof.

20. Incorrect once again.

    Rav Elyashiv, Rav Kanievsky, Rav Scheinberg, the Chazon Ish, the Brisker Rov, HaRav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld, etc. all live and lived in Eretz Yisroel and are anti-Zionists.

    Now if you desire, you can make your “final comment” far der firte mul. 🙂