CBS2 reports that a passenger who left his seat to Daven in the back of a plane before it took off, ignoring flight attendants’ orders to return, was removed by an airport security guard.
The report states: “The Orthodox Jewish man, who wore a full beard, a black hat and a long black coat, stood near the lavatories and began saying his prayers while the United Airlines jet was being boarded at JFK Airport on Wednesday night, fellow passenger Ori Brafman said.
When flight attendants urged the man, who was carrying a religious book, to take his seat, he ignored them, Brafman said. Two friends, who were seated, tried to tell the attendants that the man couldn’t stop until his prayers were over in about 2 minutes, he said.
“He doesn’t respond to them, but his friends explain that once you start praying you can’t stop,” said Brafman, who was seated three rows away.
When the man finally stopped praying, he explained that he couldn’t interrupt his religious ritual and wasn’t trying to be rude. But the attendants summoned a guard to remove him, said Brafman, a writer who had been visiting New York to talk to publishers.
The plane, Flight 9 to San Francisco, took off without the man.
A spokeswoman for United Airlines confirmed the man was taken off the plane and put on another flight Thursday morning.
Urbanksi said flights cannot depart if all passengers are not in their seats, which risks a delay, and it is important that passengers listen to the instructions of the flight crew.
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56 Responses
its like pringles. “once you pop, you can’t stop!”
Now that’s what I call Tircha D’tzibura … I could see in shul how UAL security could come in handy …
what a chilul hashem…its all over the news. I don’t believe for a minute that this man couldn’t wait the extra few minutes to daven…
I love when frum people make a kidush Hashem such as this incident. After all, bishvil li nivra haolam. Sit down and daven! Don’t make a chillul hashem! If it is so important for you to daven, daven before the flight! Schedule your flight accordingly! There are enough reasons for anti-semitism, lets not add to them!
What a chillul Hashem! Knowing that the plane was to take off shortly, the man should have davened sitting down, which is halachically permissible. Furthermore, how does anyone think he can daven standing up with feet together with kavannah when the plane is taking off and the aisle is in an inclined position? This man was plane-ly wrong.
Nebech a frum well meaning am haarets w/o sechel.Chillul H yes ,and not a brekel of consideration and derech erets.A chiluul becauase he is not smart.
poskim are against making minyanim & disturbing
crew members & and other passengers.
ask ur rav ull see.
[with due respect to frum amecans] this is part of the all too comfortable galus america!…
vihameivin yavin!
I cant stand it when they have a minyin on the el-al plane they blok the wat to the kitchen the bathrooms and when the they get upset at them they say see they hate the frum I fly el-al all the time never hade a problom DAVEN IN YOUR SEAT u can have a minyin like that!
why would
some one would do something like
Our Chazal tell us, a chosid shoteh is one who sees a woman drowning and refuses to assist her, wearing the cloth of religion. If our chazal would’ve heard of this case they would have classified this as chosid shoteh GOMER!! In the future people like this should ask a shaila in hilchus Chilul Hashem before introducing their own hilchus tifla (oh I mean tefilla)!!!!!
This may sound funny but, maybe the man had a “Yetzer Hara” to daven to HKB”H.
Also I think its a bigger Chillul Hashem and Chilul Sheim Shomayim to go to shul and daven quickly or talk during davening.
Gedolim have paskened that you are supposed to daven in your seat. If this individual were so frum, he would have asked his Rav before making a chilul Hashem. Don’t be frumer than the Torah!
does he think hes better than klal yisroel that thell be a chillel hashem but wait this man got his teffila in
Rav Breuer zt”l, used to advise davining in your seat to avoid annoying others and blocking the aisles.
My Rosh Hayeshiva davens while sitting on the plane and thinks its a chillul hashem to do otherwise without the express permission of the flight crew.
When wil people realize that AN AIRPLANE IS NOT A PUBLIC PLACE. You CANNNOT do whatever you want on an airplane. If you need to daven, do it in your seat or ask a flight attendant when and where it may be done. I don’t understand why this person couldn’t daven before getting on the plane.
If the guy wasn’t wearing “a full beard, a black hat and a long black coat” would they have said “no beard, a blue hat, and a short jacket??”
If the story is true the guy forgot other halochos that go along with davening “on the road,” including SITTING IN YOUR SEAT WHILE DAVENING EVEN IF ITS SH’MONEH ESRAY!
What a YUKEL-Where did he daven Thursday morning?
the two guys should have told him that he is making a chillul hashem. Maybe its time for Klal Yisroel to be Mikarav other yiden to Yidishkeit and that means explaining what a chillul hashem is and how to behave in public. Many have not learned this in Yeshiva or at home unfortunatley,
All you people are applying the term Chillul Hashem to a person who is totally innocent! Maybe the flight was delayed and the person had no choice but to daven at that time. He could have been waiting in his seat for an hour.
According to all you people a person who wears tztzzis in the street is also making a chillul Hashem, and what about all those wierd people who look like a grizzly bear for the next few weeks.
Are you falsely going to apply the term “Chillul Hashem” to them as well.
Shame on all of you for condenming a religious jew!!!
P.S. The real Chillul Hashem are all of the people who said nothing when an innocent person was thrown off the plane in such an embrassing way!!!
P.P.S. They delay flights for all kins of safety
reasons; can’t they delay a flight for swomeone praying for their very own safety?!!!
Many gedolim daven in their seats while on an aircraft. There are many problems with davening by the bathrooms. One should consult his local orthodox rabbi for advice on how to daven on an airplane.
ymk123 – that was you on the plane, right?
While I probably would’ve acted differently I still find it troubling that so many fellow Yidden rush to judge and condemn this guy.
I -and all of you- don’t know exactly what transpired on that flight. Why not be a little softer on a fellow Yid?
It probably could’ve been avoided. That doesn’t mean he should be hanged in public!!
Don’t forget; ALL WHO JUDGE OTHERS HARSHLY WILL BE JUDGED HARSHLY THEMSELVES WHEN THE TIME COMES.
To: Mark Levin 3:13pm
You raise a very valid point! Unfortunately, after reading some of the above comments written by Yidden, what do you expect from a goy?
The article clearly says WHILE EVERYONE WAS BOARDING that means he wasn’t delaying the flight, assuming he wasn’t blocking an aisle which is probably a valid assumption the flight attendent was being overly aggresive especially after his freinds told her he would be finished in 2 minutes. Honestly I don’t think your allowed to be mafsek to accommodate a flight attendant on a power trip, she is no better than a melech whom you can not b mafsek for either. the proof is they let him board a subsequent flight if he was out of bounds they wouldn’t have let him board again at all and they would of had him arrested.
Hi! This story is now headline news on the largest Norwegian paper’s web site! I think it just make Jews seem ridiculous, and people all around the world will hear this story now…I also hate the heading “Jewish man thrown out of plane as praying by the toilets”…Greetings from Norwegian Jew.
#24
business as usual for the comments section of Yeshivaworld.
its funny how if one jew does something, were all effected.
anyway last night i heard a story by R’ Pesach Krohn, with the guy who came back to give the quater to the toll booth on the way home from the hospital after his wife had a baby. and the toll booth guy said “your type comes back and pays for the toll”.
all different ways to look at klal yisrael.
rabuma-
you couldn’t have said that better. I think this is the first time I’ve seen you comment. We should be hearing from you more often!!
I think this guy should of waited a few min. instead of makeing a chillul hashem
That isnt the point.. though I fail to see why he did not just daven shemona esrei in the terminal before boarding?
I think he boarded, was davening.. must have been a delay or whatever.. figured “hey i’ll daven shemona esrey now so i dont disturb the flight when we are in the air”
Please note that they took him off the plane after he finished praying. Which means a) he was not delaying them anymore or creating further nuisance b) Interesting how the time factor of delaying the plane dissipated in order to remove him
reb shlomo zalmen zt”l paskens that if you are davening on a plane and just the seatbelt sine turns on you must sit down altz chilul hashem.
davening is derabanan where as chilul hashem is dioraysa
People using halocho or frumkeit as an excuse to be ‘matriach es horabim’are complete shotim.
One is un-tzniusdig if he shows off his tzidkus in public. How did all the other frum men manage? They knew the rules and followed them One can daven before getting on the plane. If it’s the last moment that tefillo is permitted and they ask people to be seated,you sit! Hashem can listen to your shmoneh esray while you say it from your seat if need be.People who show how frum they are should at least know basic halocho. Maybe it’s time to study orach chaim,or kitzur shulchan oruch and know it well and then try to conquer shas. Just because he was wearing a big black hat,and a big beard ( maybe payos) and shuckled,doesn’t make him a great talmid chochom. The person in the baseball cap with a sports jacket and no beard may know and observe the halochos much better. Who knows?(Perhaps studying Pirkei Avos and mussar seforim could give this gentleman an education.
The Misalas Yesharim talks about the midda of chassidus and has a perek called “Mishkal HaChasidus” which basically says be careful not to be too frum. It is important to be extra midakdek in mitzvos etc but if it is going to cause a Chilul Hashem and/or if it will be lacking in bein adom lichavairo then only do what is an actual chiyuv and no more. This is an example of someone trying to be too frum, he thinks to himself that he has to daven and he has to do it standing no matter what. Most poskim will tell you that it is better to daven sitting then to disturb others and cause a Chilul Hashem. In this guys defense though, he probably thought that he would be done before takeoff and that he wouldn’t be in anyone’s way. I’m not sure what the Halacha is once you are in the middle of Shmoneh Esrei and something like this comes up if you are allowed to be mafsik.
The flight attendants should have been nicer especially since other passengers explained the situation to them they should have been more understanding unless he was actually holding up the plane from taking off in which case it is their job to make sure that everyone is seated. Everyone is michuyav to listen to them and they have every right to call security for someone who doesn’t. When someone is in charge of a group of people they have to make sure that everyone listens and cannot even allow a small noncompliance as it would undermine their authority. It is important for people to realize that the flight crew is in charge of everyone’s safety and cannot tolerate disobedience. If this was a muslim praying we would all say to throw him off, no questions asked even if it was the exact same situation and he wasn’t actually stopping the plane from taking off.
If your child is disturbing the prayers you may move in mid-Amida and take care of the disturbance.
I have been in the same situation of taking an early morning flight. I went to the flight attendants and told them I had to pray and that because of my TALLIS and TEFILLIN I would prefer not to pray at my seat. They said once the flight is in the air I can come back to the stewardess area and pray there.
Hey everyone take it easy, why are we all judging? He may have been mentally challenged.
Hey ‘CHEVRA’ aren’t you all saying that acting Jewish among ‘Gentiles’ is a CHILUL HASHEM!!!!!! SO maybe Lets not keep Shabbos among Gentiles etc. Chas Veshalom I think that maybe Avrohom Avinu according to this distorded interpertation also mase a chilul Hashem buy not Bowing down to the idol and maybe Moshe Rabeinu too buy speaking to Pharow In the name of Hashem and maybe Mordchai…!!!!!!!!! Why is davening to Hashem A Disgrace?! Every being Should know that they have a direct Connection to Hashem and this shouldn’t be disturbed as stated in the Halacha even for a king…
The man did the wrong thing according to mant poskim by not Davening in his seat, because his Concentration was probably disturbed, and there were probably women who had parts of there supposed to be covered organs etc. exposed, and many other things but that does not make it a chilul hashem in my eyes!!!!!!!!
Ayloo V’Ayloo. There are at least two sides to every story. Reading all the comments, and the story itself, I agree BOTH that 1. The guy was wrong to daven the way he did and 2. The air crew reaction was way over the top.
1. He was wrong. The proof is in the pudding: if he had asked the air crew first, “do I have 5 minutes to daven in this area?” they would have said no. If he had asked, they would not have been reacting as they did unless they told him no. He was wrong not to ask and that led to the problem.
2. They way overreacted. As others have noted, it was during boarding, not while taxiing or taking off, so, even if it was 2 minute’s annoyance or slight disruption, they could have exercised a little discretion, a little respect for the man’s religious dedication and it would never have made the news and there never would have been a Chillul Hashem.
In the end, I wouldn’t criticize him so sharply as others, but they are still right that he made a mistake. I tend to agree also with that remark: Bishvil Li Nivra Ha’olam: one of the most misunderstood concepts in Yiddishkeit among frum people. L’fi rov aniyas daati, it means that the value of our potential and actual performance of mitzvos is so spectacular, it’s as if it would have been worth it for Hashem to create the world just for you. The mangled meaning is to think “I’m so wonderful, the world WAS ACTUALLY created for ME ME ME. Therefore, I can ignore everyone else, act like a big frummak, trample people’s feelings, possessions, convenience all to get what I want, including showing everyone what a tremendous Adam Gadol I am.”
why couldnt he just make a hoicha shmoneh esreh??
“[with due respect to frum amecans] this is part of the all too comfortable galus america!…
vihameivin yavin!”
What is the connection to Galus, it is just plain deretz eretz?
my rav rabbi rosenblatt shilta said if you will disturb anyone its better to remain seated while davening!
Can we get statements from the airline and from the passenger posted on YWN?
TO ALL THOSE THAT SAID THAT I WAS A CHILUL HASHEM WE WEREN’T THERE AND WE DON’T KNOW WHAT THE STORY WAS SO LETS NOT START JUDGING.
Has anyone even contemplated the thought that maybe he thought there was enough time and once he started he was correct halachically in not stopping. Why is everyone so quick to condem a story we hardly know details of.
Although this guy was 100% wrong and should have davened in his seat, I’m just curious to know what would have happened if it were a Muslim doing his prayers, would the stewardess have made such a fuss OR would they have waited till he finished and then kindly ask him to sit down.
Whatever happened to looking at the positive in orhters? R’ Levi Yitzchak Miberditchev always looked for the good in all Yidden and in all situations. Hopefully, Hashem will look at what we point out in this situation – how beautiful it is that someone cared enough about serving Hashem that he stood up for what he believed in, and didn’t succumb to external pressures. Kol Hakavod.
you people are cruel. yes this man may have made a chilul hashem but you are making an even worse one. you dont know all the details of what could have transipired. perhaps however many minutes/seconds he prevented the plane from lift off how that could have affected the rest of their flight lets say for example not crashing into another plane in air or something. the fact that you automaticly assume he is in the wrong is sick and sad. maybe he is and maybe he isnt but it is not your place.
Perhaps HIS poisek holds that he must stand for Shemone Esre.
# 50, you’re right on the money about posters adding to the Chilul Hashem that transpired.
Not only is everyone commenting on this without having actually been there to know the actual details (Aidei Sheker anyone?) posting Loshon Harah about a Yid on a public Message board where any Nochri has access to reading is adding Chilul Hashem upon Chilul Hashem upon Chilul Hashem.
I know that sometimes, the COMMENTS written on the YWN creates MORE Chilul Hashem than the article one is commenting about. You can be anonymous behind screen names, but you are far from being anonymous where it actually Counts.
-A wise man speaks because he has something to say. A fool speaks because he wants to say something.
#51
You missed my point.
Leveled and Sane,
Dont know what yur point was, but I get a feeling if ti were a muslim practicing his religion in a way that was disturbing, the stewardess would have been much HARSHER than she was in this incicdent unless ofcourse she was afraid of him, which IS apossibility..
I think in America JEWS are much more tolerated than
Muslims.
Ever notice that we always daven by the lavatories? What must the GOYIM think? Hopefully they dont suspect us of some kind of Avodah Zora ( baal Peor)
I actually once saw a guy go into the lavatory – with his tefillin – to say Tachanun! To his credit he quickly left when I pointed it out to him.
this reminds me of a guy who made aza tumult before mincha cause he had no hat so instead we walked home and came back in middle of kedusha just to daven with a hat.
the wholw point he davened in back is so he can concentrate and l`halacha if a child disturbes you you can move so how much concentraion did he have with flight attendints all around him
to #55 …jews dont go around all over the globe slaughtering, slicing humans, calling other religions decendants of pigs & apes, trying to subjegate the world under their religion…we dont have to be “tolerated” any more than any other religion…any way that person was a complete jerk.. no siechel..such cicumstanceses one sits in seat and davens..see shulchen urach ohr hachaim 94