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Kuvult, what is going on in your community – men having such big problems with inappropriate material on the phones, but seemingly same men getting great middos from their learning, no problems with shabbos and geneiva, etc. How is the phone such a big nisayon while they conquered all others? This is very confusing as I usually see people succeeding or failing in multiple related categories. Please clarify.
No, the Rav didn’t make such claims and he was addressing a question from presumably a survivor looking for a serious answer. I agree with what he said, the question what caused the downfall of the European Jewish community is not yet answered. We usually associate both success and failure to a combination of leadership and mass Jewish response. See, for example, Shmuel v community on the issue of a melech. So, blaming erev rav is not a full answer. And I don’t think anyone gave an accounting of what went wrong with leadership and community. Currently, we have both mo and nonmo developed new institutions that we didn’t have at a time, but it is under cover of restoring old order (that failed)
R Steinzaltz answered the question about shoah with “it is too early to make the conclusions ” and pointed out that statements about causes of destruction are often made hundreds years after the event. This was in the context of his generic description that Judaism is an old religion and is not in a hurry to answer complicated questions definitely like electricity.. this was 30 years ago, so maybe we are closer to history now.
Ps there were faster assessments in later history though like Kozak pogroms due to talking in shulsHillul Shabbat of 100+ years ago was different – it was a rejection. Nowadays, it is ignorance or at least, maintaining a status quo. R Salanter in his time said that he prefers to deal with Western European Jews who were low but stationary and could be talked to, rather than Litvishe (where haskala came later) who were on the downslope and nothing could be done about it.
I would also add to R Miller’s shita that it is not just those who fell away who were the cause of a problem, but whole communities that failed. R Hirsh was able to save a part of his community and there were other successful cases, but often leaders were not able to offer attractive alternatives. Not saying that it was an easy task, haskala changed human condition faster than anything before that,
common, not that I consider people who did not read Amelia Shmodelia uneducated, but your comparison is not fully fair: you are probably somewhat an outlier in your community.
Rather than comparing two communities – blac v stam hats – by an average person, let me compare by the higher ones. A typical gemora class in a black hat community starts with tannaim and ends with R Feinstein. In a modernishe class, discussion also goes into Roman civil law, Rambam’s reference to Plato, supreme court cases in 1970s, 19th century Germany, and a latest book or paper by one of the class participants.. Does not mean that the black hat class does not anyone to discuss Plato, but not enough to have a joint discussion.
Menachem, you convinced mew that L Rebbe used the word”kiruv”. As to “rehokim”, your observation is similar to mine – while L Rebbe himself generally objected to it, the expression pops up in indices and descriptions provided by editors, who assimilated in part into general community and lost sensitivity.
Avira, general theory is fine, but does Ramchal claim to direct kiruv of those rehokim? As Qwerty says, many Yidden who are visibly non-observant have a lot of mailos. That Russian family you visited and were surprised they care about Israel (dah, in my town, half of Yidden coming to pro-
Israel events are Rusim, not sure where they are coming from ..) – you are talking about people probably 5 (five) generations after Soviets wiped out all religious environment, then last 1-2 being further lost in American freedom – and seemingly married Jews through all of that, and probably more, despite the risks and opportunities… Similarly, with, say, Persian Jews who often travelled through remote areas to get out of there … compare their mailos with an American Yid who was surrounded by supportive environment and had limited interaction with outside world. I am not saying that everyone should go out there and experience interactions with KGB, but to consider that you are closer to Hashem than such a person is not a sure thing.common, you caught me so many times quoting seforim.Next time you are in my area, Peoria IL, stop by to see whether I actually have seforim or maybe just making up the quotes.
I looked up what R Soloveichik writes about goyishe speakers. He forbids any discussions related to theology, religion, but absolutely advises cooperation between religious people of different faiths on social and world issues, not just on issues relevant to Jews.
On relating to other Jewish groups, he rejects an invitation to a dinner in 1960s honoring a Rav/Rebetzin that he knew well personally combined with an opening of a new synagogue. He explains that people who build the synagogue should be proud of their achievement, and that he would come to the dinner in honor of the Rav, but he can’t attend because the synagogue will most likely have mixed seating (during prayers, not during the dinner). So, this would be a red line – approving halachically wrong practice.
This also does not mean, of course, that he will favor Jewish students listening to a pastor. In abother letter in 1950s, he disapproves an interfaith chapel at Cornell explaining that students will learn to see such an arrangement as normal and take this notion to their communities.
a couple of weeks passed – any updates on any public events being organized the right way by those who objected to the arrangements at the rally?
Yes, many learning initiatives were implemented, B”H
whitecar, right, this is a more reasonable claim. But, then, you should not be upset so much at her – a black hat seems to be a self-imposed symbol of rejecting any changes to the society that happened after Jews and non-Jews were wearing similar (often cheaper) hats & clothes 300 years ago.
That would exclude Amelia/Bedelia. You are free to disprove this assumption, but she is just responding to the message. Of course, it is easy to avid being sterotyped by going to an even older tradition of Rambam – I do not mean a turban or a kefiya, but nice and clean clothes, not too rich, not too poor, not attracting attention (Deot 5:9)
sechel > there is nothing wrong with the term kiruv, the problem is rechukim
I agree, I brought quotes from L Rebbe about that. But, to clarify the issue, maybe someone can find L Rebbe’s quotes where he used the word kiruv?
White car (in a black hat?), I think she has certain presumptions about certain communities, not about any ffbs. You are, probably unconsciously, denying that other traditions are also organically observant.
True, libraries do not have or hide those books, but you can buy them either ata library book sale or at a estate sale in any educated neighborhood. The tick is more to make kids read them. I read London to the kids when they were little, but further progress stalled when they got socialized into “math is hard” and “classics is boring”. With Twain, I esigned to just quote his witticisms, starting with the most appropriate “when I came back home, I found out that my father became much smarter”.
As to “hiding”, I don’t think this is a deciding factor in yiddishkeit level – Sephardim, for example, dressed like Spaniards or Arabs for centuries, often keeping their Yehadut at home, and survived with more or less same success/failure as Ashkenazim.
I was not accuracte, I meant baraitas “early” comparing with amoraim. I don’t think they are treated the same. When gemora considers a need to amend, amending baraita is preferable to amending a mishna. Not sure whether the baraitos you mention have same status as mishna.
PS relevance to the OP: you see, we can have a scholarly conversation on a yom rishon without NYPL.
A good phrase, but more generally, part of the value of “old” things is – we know they survived time and were found out to be useful . Recent stuff – we don’t know how long it will last. Gemora pages were reviewed and amended over centuries. Many early baraitas are reviewed and rejected in Gemora, so the one hat survived the editing process are of higher quality.
Looking thru mishna berura for shalosh shevuos … found so far that shalosh seudos is a mitzva, that making shevuos is not advisable. Found that Chofetz Chaim wanted to go to EY during zionist enterprise .. please advise what perek.
Z,
I agree that we need to define who is a legit rav.
Maybe like that: if rav x is legit, and he respects rav y, then rav y is legit. Maybe exclude some outliers of rabbis who love humanity so much that they’ll respect anyone, and cases when someone changed dramatically over time.You can easily get a chain from Satmar rebbe to r Schachter: thru Moshe and r Soloveitchik. There might be hard cases but this is not one of them.
Ctl, you got to admit that things outside of your knowledge made your impressions at the time partially untrue. So, yes, you were inspired but also mislead by the leaders you were looking up to.
common, your thought experiment is incomplete: you compare how R Schechter’s possible message against his own views with R Feldman’s message that caters to the community.
Better compare it with the actual (original) R Feldman’s view that it is worth attending. And it is easy to track given his reversal on the day of the rally: count how many people were driving to DC and then turned around. How many people did that?
R Avigdor Miller says that if you prefer reading English books – to read classics that teach proper middos, like working ethics. AAQ: if yo can still find them in the libraries. You are better off finding good old books at library book sales, where they sell old books donated by patrons. Next challenge: interest kids in reading them.
> However, outrageous for a guy earning 4 mil to be left with only $400,000?!
it is outrageous for anyone who worked in his life and natural for a commie. Would be interested in halachik sources for such expropriation, given that standard sources recommend upper limit of 20% in normal circumstances (excluding emergencies).
I can appreciate R Feldman’s position as a Rosh Yeshiva: he is responsible for bochurim and it is not his place to send them somewhere where the parents did not expect them to go. It is safer to keep them learning. And his letter clearly described his views on importance of a rally and what were the negatives. Given this information, it should be a logical next step – organize an event that fits guidelines of a substantial part of the religious community and invite others to join. Hope this happens.
I stand, partially, corrected. I found, in the depths of internets, some chabadniks using the terms “a shaliach and a mekarev” and the like in articles and in section headers. I did not, though, see these words in direct quotes from Rebbeim and Rabbonim. In many cases, mekarev means a less loaded term, as in a close talmid or friend, as in “R X was a mekarev of Gadol Y”. So, the question is whether “kiruv” is a shortcut for “kiruv rechokim” or has a separate meaning. I would err to the side of caution and not offend Yidden.
“kiruv rechokim” deserved an article on the chabad site, with this quote from L Rebbe ZT’L:
You call them “distant”?! What gives you the right to say that you are close and they are far? You must approach each one of them as though you are the King’s servant sent with a message to His most precious child!Similarly:
One Chabad supporter told the Rebbe about a Shabbaton he had sponsored for over forty couples who “had no Jewish background.”
“No what?” the Rebbe responded, as though in shock.
“No Jewish background,” was the hesitant response.
“Tell them that they have a background! Their background is that they are children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob!” the Rebbe replied.It has to with Z, that Chabad is now not a small group of dedicated shluchim, but a large movement that includes some people who use yeshivish language and others who appreciate binyan EY and this is not surprising.
Who needs the library on Sunday?
Those who work whole week, should spend yom rishon learning & with the family
Those who do not, can visit the library on Fridays.
Are you looking for a place to send your kids away on the day they might not have school, so that you can sleep on the weekend and not deal with them?Z_Not,
first, you are a follower of “no true scotsman” fallacy – you admit as gedolim only those who agree with _you_. So, you are a gadol and so are those who agree with you. Not too humble.2nd, not all arguments of 100 years ago are still applicable. People are the same and arguments are not the same. Majority of current Israelis are not even descendants of Zionists 100-70 years ago (Sephardim, Rusim, Charedim, Americans …)
Chabad assimilation warning ⚠️: they are not usually using a loaded term kiruv in regards to their heilike work, but I just saw in an internal shlichus journal a photo title; shaliach X and a mekurav at a yechidus. I perused the whole magazine, nobody else used such loshen. Maybe the junior editor is a misnagishe spy.
Kuvult, yes on other Rabbis, as I mentioned – Lita & Germany. I do not mean mixed dancing, I mean mixed eating on shabbos and simchas.
> . Nor did they have mixed seating in Lita.
Very appropriate statement per parsha – why was Yaakov wearng a hat. Sources would be welcome. I heard various stories, but did not study in depth. quick search finds, for example, mentions that R Feinstein had wedding for his children: 2 separate and 2 separate for Feinsteins and mixed for mechutonim. (R Tendler senior was on the same beis din w/ R Moshe); apocryphal story that Chofetz Chaim disinvited R Meir Shapiro from a shabbos meal when the latter requested separate seating at the table.
But here was a mention of “events”, like school dinners, I presume, sheva brochos not being a problem.
To clarify, I am not advocating for one v. the other, just for not considering this as one of the simanei kashrus along the split hooves.
> on the record supporting attendance at this secular rally.
R Feldman explicitly told you that such attendance is allowed when there is pikuach nefesh and that the rally satisfies this criterion. Your disregard of his words is unexplainable.
His decision to rescind his approval is based on 2 additional factors that he clearly states.
Not to sidetrack from the beautiful description of Baltimore, but is mixed seating at events something to be conscious about? I understand the history of nonobservant America and the slippery slope argument, but in terms of minhagim, I believe litvishe had mixed seating, and yakkish had mixed shiurim. Baltimore is r Schwab …
Yeshivish, I was referring to r Feldman saying that he is afraid that young people will be attracted by the pastor speech.
a user comment on an article by R Adlerstein:
As a Mom with several sons /sons-in-law called up to the army, I would like to make a practical suggestion. Some of my kids live on Yishuvim, in which due to their fairly homogeneous nature (age group and the fact that almost all the men serve in the army), the vast majority of men were called to miluim, leaving mainly women and children on the Yishuv. There are a few Chayyalim who guard each Yishuv, but the women are concerned that they are insufficiently protected in case of an emergency or attack, G-d forbid .
Maybe each yeshiva could move to a Yishuv and continue learning in the Yishuv Beit Knesset. These men could learn 16 hours a day, as like Chayyalim they would be away from the distractions of home, providing metaphysical protection..and..simply by their presence (and if some have security training and guns, even better) they can provide physical security, as well. Most Yishuvim have extra caravans where they could sleep, and they would stay on a 12 days learning / 2 days home schedule, like many Chayyalim.
It would seem to me that if the Yeshiva world is truly dedicated to providing protection through Torah study, this could be a win-win solution.from R Hauer:
Many thousands participated in both Monday’s Yom Kippur Katan and Tuesday’s DC March. Many thousands more participated in one and not the other, as some would not feel comfortable in the intensely Orthodox environment of the selichos minyan while others would not relate to a gathering with so many Jews and so little Torah. No matter.
…
That is what we must focus on, not the controversies surrounding the statements or decisions of specific rabbanim or organizations. We must learn from the bitter experience of the past year that when we focus on fighting with each other, we lower our guard and become dangerously vulnerable to the threats of our real enemies
,,,,
We can be at those tables courtesy of something known as the Schindler Doctrine, formulated by Rabbi Alexander Schindler of the Reform movement but critical to our Orthodox sensitivities, committing the Conference to focus entirely on issues that impact the material well-being of Jews and Jewish communities and avoiding religious issues where we cannot expect agreement. That mature understanding allowed us to come together to plan a historic rally that would not and could not be a religious event, but that would prove to be an important political effort to demonstrate support for Israel, the Jewish people, and the hostages across political parties, communities of faith, and individuals of influence and celebrity.
…
Painful as it was to leave Torah off the program, we all did so consistent with the principle that allowed us to be at that table to begin with, steering clear of areas where there are for now irreconcilable theological differences. But we shared an enthusiasm to make sure that this political event would prove to be an uplifting religious experience for the Jewish community that would make us all feel our connection to each other and to G-d. The moments of tehillim, the singing together of Esa Einei, Acheinu, Vehi She’amda, and the recitation of Shema were some of the precious moments that uplifted and unified one and all.GadolHadofi, thanks for referring to Cross Currents. Here is an interesting view from R Adlerstein who watched from Israel:
Why was it exhilarating? Because you could feel the achdus of a people that had come together. Every different religious and secular sub-community was represented. (Well, almost. I don’t want to write about the “almost” just now, in the middle of the war.) It was a brilliant move to have the cameras trained on the young people there, to see their enthusiasm and commitment.
…
Those of us old enough to remember previous rallies were bowled over by how Jewish (rather than Jew-ish) it was. The organizers are to be commended for leaving out all rabbis, avoiding a source of internecine conflict and discomfort. That worked out well – particularly for the Torah-abiding community. Ishai Ribo did a better job of giving the event a “yiddishe taam” than virtually any rabbi we could have tapped as a speaker. At previous events (which the yeshiva world, contrary to the revisionists, participated in), the frum community felt like outsiders, as they had to listen to the words of people who seldom, if ever, invoked Hashem. On Tuesday, Ishai somehow engineered that the event pretty much began with a recitation of Tehillim, line by line. (A guitar strumming in the background turned that into the “musical” performance he had been billed to give in that slot.)Besides his other songs, all full of yearning for Hashem, he managed to end with both a Shema Yisrael (Did we hear correctly? Shema by 290,000. Such a shout did not need the Shaarei Shomayim to open for it. The pressure surely must have knocked down the doors!) and more devekus. Who could have imagined that this would be part of a mass rally?
Even the secular organizers found ways to mention G-d! Who would have imagined?
Who would have thought that the kol isha that was standard fare in the past would give way to a monopoly on musical performance by Ishai and the Maccabeats?
…
The imprint of Orthodoxy was all over the event. The points mentioned above. The fact that Ishai did not have to translate his words, because so much of the crowd understood them. The fact that the organizers knew that music by Ishai Ribo and by the Maccabeats would be recognized by the non-Orthodox, and appreciated by them. All this speaks of the Orthodox having taken over Jewish culture in America! Gone are the days when we had to beg for some scraps of recognition.Zeff, thanks for your post. R Feldman summarized the dilemma pretty well:
>> I was extremely pained to have to say that we should not participate in the rally and not be able to influence Congress to help protect my brothers: civilians, soldiers and hostages. But, on the other hand, I could not contribute to undermining, even in the slightest way, the beliefs of Torah Jews. There would have to be another way to help the Jews of Israel.
Therefore, with a heavy heart I retracted my support of the rally.So, Rav is very frank in discussing trade-offs: yes, rally was important for pikuach nefesh (contrary to those who claim it was not) and it would also endanger beliefs of his community (contrary to those of us, like me, who feel it was possible to handle). He also calls, as I did, for charedi community to find what they can do.
What I do not fully understand is the “heavy heart” decision to resolve this trade-off: not to risk his community “even in slightest way” to pursue “pikuach nefesh”. Maybe, he sees that his community is indeed unprepared to listen to a pastor or, l’havdil, a President of Israel, in the ways people more exposed to the world are not.
Also, I am surprised that he is surprised that Israeli officials were highlighted at a political rally … to support Israel… To expect American Congressmen to split hairs between eretz and medinah seems unrealistic.
Maven,
correction: these are not “tunnels”, but “tunnels according to information provided by IDF that was not independently verified”. I am amazed by the sheer laziness of the journalists standing on the precipice of a peaceful hospital tunnel and do not bother to simply slide down and report independently from the inside.They actually could be pathways to/from gehenom that swallowed all the terrorists
How about contacting an Yid dressed differently from oneself and saying something nice to him
Some people in Israel reported being busy making green tzitzis to match IDF uniform that were reportedly requested by multiple soldiers (who presumably did not wear them previously).
Menachem,
are you also as strict regarding movement members who sign another “infamous nigunim” of maschihistim or you are more understanding about that?I don’t think kutim mamash worshipped the mountain, it s where their temple was. This would not be AZ, but their other beliefs at different times might have been. As we see even from gemora, we classify them according to the facts of the day. Anyway, I agree here that participants needed halachik guidance to deal with this, not sure whether they had it on hand. The response you heard could have been coming from the non-religious participants
Weird, what did pope do for jews lately!?
My voice, I think you misunderstood, maybe because you are focused on the rally and not the reason behind it. When whole am Israel is in pain, it is double painful to see a group that doesn’t join. If you hold that you have access to the only correct hashkofa, then you should be the first to organize the way you think is correct and then urge others to join. And don’t tell me you are doing learning instead. Whn yeshivos need government funding, they go to politicians, not to Yom iyun as far as I know. Chofetz Chaim met with polish politicians and many gedolim went to Petersburg on 19th century
I don’t think kutim were suspected of shituf, rather of straight Avoda Zora. You may get such impression because kutim may be used as euphemism for christians
Avira, yes, OC 215 seems to have Rema saying the opposite, and more of a discussion later on. Also, an argument whnether kuti here is a substitute for a non-Jew or a min in general. Sh’A harav has a discussion of a min, probably a code word for a christian. Bottom line, attendees of such rallies should have halachik guidance in advance on when and how to respond. In my humble experience dealing with friendly and helpful people from other religions, they do not engage in sneaking their brochos into conversation. Those who do are obnoxious l’hathila.
But all Sh’A discussions are about literally blessings. What about answering amen or other types of agreement with reasonable statement (I presume that is what it was as you are not taking an issue with his statement).
Someone comes to you and says “Am Yisroel Hai”, can you answer Amen? Yes? Sure? Does amen carry any implication of religious unity between parties? If yes, is it because we give significance in this word, or because preachers use this language?
As to a bigger issue – I understand R Soloveichik paskened that cooperation on religious issues is osur, but ok and desired on social issues. It appears from the above that more guidance is required when actually implemnting such policy. Can someone ask these questions from the poskim that supported the rally?
common, I am not sure why you are pursuing me repeatedly. I’m interested in your advice. My DT told me 30 years that there is no DT in gemora. And confirmed last week when I quoted this discussion to him. What do I do within the DT methodology? This is a human version of the question “can the Omnipotent create a stone that he cannot move”.
To be pedantic, OP didn’t specify yeshiva’s name. He probably meant bmg given signatures on the letter edited, for your benefit.
Hope he was not the driver.
mod > about frivolous comments about great people
My run of being unmodded ended so soon after the rosh hodesh! I absolutely meant the esteemed posters who insist that a letter signed by hamesha rabonim is halocha l’Moshe misinai, not the rabbonim who have the right, and even obligation, to make their opinion known to their followers.
As to the posters, they testified that they had great people sleeping in their car, but does it make them also a great people?! Anyway, it is an anonymous eid ehad testifying about themselves.
Avira > “gave an amen” to an evangelical pastor
interesting, you join ” ‘Jews’ for ‘Peace’ ” in this attitude.
I recall R Soloveichik paskened that we should avoid any “ecumenical” discussions with other religions – even when Vatican was “doing teshuva” and fixing their attitudes towards Jews. Good that they do it – but we don’t have to be there and be grateful for them to doing the right thing. At the same time, it is OK to join them to resolve world social and political problems, not necessarily Jewish. Kal vahomer, when it is in defense of Jews. So, bringing an influential speaker with tens of millions followers was certainly a win, despite liberal and purist annoyance.
I did not hear what exactly he wanted to be omeined to. I think halacha is that we don’t answer a partial brocha from a non-Jew as we do not know who and for what he is thanking. It seems to follow that you do answer if the bracha is appropriate. What did he actually say?
user > you think that you and your piers make up “klal Yisrael”
I think this summarizes well why most of us here are responding to this. At the moment when everyone is striving for unity, it is very annoying to see people with a pretense of being “the klal” and exclude everyone else.