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If we all started honking at these people would that help?
realize that people are human and can make mistakes or do bad things
call me frum – If that is what the boy wants he should have made it clear before meeting the girl once let alone 10 times. So there seems to be something amiss over here. Also there are many fatherinlaws who would be honored to have a son in law who is willing to learn full time and be thankful to Hashem for giving them the means to support such a situation.
You seemed to have answered your own question. You said you don’t have emuna that Hashem will provide you with parnassa if you were to get married now and you asked a rav and did not follow his guidance. Maybe you could learn more about the subject of emuna and hishtadlus as your views seem to contradict das Torah. Also it’s very important to have a rav who knows you well. More importantly you must trust him otherwise he is not your rav.
rational frummie – virtually every gadol wears some kind of black hat or strimel.
LeebaW,
There are other threads on here with pretty heretical stuff that have not been censored. This first of the asseres hadibros is anochi Hashem, belief in Hashem. So I think its pretty appropriate to discuss the topic on a frum board. You may not get the highest quality conversation though.
I don’t normally like getting unsolicited advice and try to avoid giving it but I’d like to provide a suggestion if you would be open to it. There are a lot of arguments on both sides of the issue and it may be worth while to speak to a rav who is familiar with these topics like some kiruv rabbis or rebetzins. They just may have other ideas that you haven’t considered. I’m just suggesting it because I assume you have already read books like beyond a reasonable doubt and listen to R’ Dovid Gottlieb’s shiurim and aish etc. But then once you have a question there is no one to ask.
The other part is that when examining a topic especially one has emotionally charged as this it helps to really be willing to live with what you will find whether that is that Torah is true or not.
rebdoniel –
The guy with tatoos wearing a prison uniform may be a wonderful guy too. The guy running in your direction with a knife in the middle of the night may also be a nice guy (maybe he is chasing after someone else who is about to kill someone)
The point is we judge things based on our knowledge and experience. We do it in every area of life. It is logical and the right thing to do. If we have both a theory as to why something is probable and experience and evidence to back it up its best to use that information or you might just get stabbed.
LeebaW –
1. Thanks for starting this thread its an important topic. We should treat people how we want to be treated. If I am struggling in something I don’t think it would be helpful if someone tried to make me do it. I think the main way is to be a good role model.
2. LeebaW “the truth is that I just don’t believe”. This is exactly what I said in my previous post. The reason someone would stay off is either a. they don’t believe b. teivos.
If there are specific things you don’t believe in or have specific problems would you like to share them here?
mocheli – Maybe you could take over some of the responsibilities like doing the grocery shopping. Or you could ask your wife if she would be interested in talking to you about ways to save money and you could show her how ie which stores are cheaper etc.
“hats and listening to non Jewish music” superficial things?
If everyone in your community dresses one way and you decide to do something different there is a significant reason. It is well known even amongst goyim that how you dress affects you. Hence the saying “dress for success” and the like.
It is also widely accepted that music has an impact on our thoughts, feelings, behaviors, performance, moods etc.
btw- there are halachos regarding tochacha if doing so will not be effective then you probably shouldn’t be doing it. So I am not arguing with that. I am just pointing out that maybe the approach is wrong but the message is true.
Leeba- Do you believe in Hashem and the Torah? If yes, you aught to keep the Torah regardless of what other people have done. Maybe it is harder for you but logic would dictate you should try. If you don’t believe then perhaps that’s the reason you remain off?
secular Frummy:
believer may break it out of desire and a non believer to fit in both are understandable
As explained to me by someone who is familiar with this subject Orthopraxy means a person who practices orthodox Judaism (that includes both in public and private). However they do not believe in it.
I personally don’t know of any such people. (unless it is just a temporary step to going off the derech and they are still scared to break halacha. But after slowly doing more aveiros that sense of wrongdoing can go away.) So I don’t see why someone who really doesn’t believe wont even break halacha in practice (ie not orthopraxy)
“Orthopraxy is a term derived from modern Greek ?????????? (orthopraxia) meaning “correct action/activity” or an emphasis on conduct, both ethical and liturgical, as opposed to faith or grace etc.[1][2][3] This contrasts with orthodoxy, which emphasizes correct belief, and ritualism, the use of rituals.[“
-wikipedia
now if by orthopraxy you mean someone who keeps halacha in public but really doesn’t keep shabbos for example then he isn’t even practicing orthodoxy (ie orthopraxy)
writersoul: it wasn’t meant as a response to you. If I understand correctly orthopraxy is people who keep mitzvos but don’t believe in it. I don’t think that makes sense because the people I know who don’t believe, at least in private will not keep mitzvos. But yes there are people with questions if you want answers one good place could be rabbis or rebitzens who are involved in kiruv because they deal with this things all the time. Rabbi Dovid Gottlieb has many good shiurm about belief
can someone give a summary of the mishpacha article?
Also unless there is positive reason to believe something is true there is no need waste your time on it. If you or your kids are in a school where you have doubts about the faculty switch schools. If you have this problem with everyone then maybe you are the one with the problem.
E-O-M
2- In order to provide us with the most good Hashem set up a system where we would be able to choose it. For this to work He gave us the ability to choose evil. Hashem wants us to choose good and He knows we wont always do that. However in His infinite wisdom He determined that creating the world as it is, is for the ultimate good even if bad things happen. Basically, one approach is that Hashem lets bad things happen for the sake of the ultimate good.
In kabala there is a concept of Hashem retracting Himself somehow in order to create the world (whatever that means).
All of 4 ladies wear burkas wow big news. How many do you see on a regular basis? How many do you have anything to do with? How about instead of wasting time thinking about some other communities problems we focus on our own. In the community I live if there is any tznius problem it is not burkas.
Maybe people believe sheitels down to the waist is Torah misinai after all sarah emainu must of had at least 3.
I remember learning that you could switch from sfard to ashkenaz but not the other way around. However perhaps this question is best for your rav.
Don’t have sources on this but I also remember learning that 6000 doesn’t have to mean exactly 6000 and could be around there. Also I believe there is a gemora that talks about history being divided up to 2000 year periods and the last 2000 is the time of Mashiach
There have been many people who have predicted when mashiach will come and apparently often bad things have happened in those times.
Perhaps some sects (maybe just Lubavitch) have a strong emphasis on Mashiach. Yes it is an important concept but it is not our lifes purpose. Our job is to learn Torah and keep the Mitzvos. If 6000 comes and goes without mashiach then so be it. We want Mashiach to come so we could keep the Torah butter it is a means to an end.
The burden is not to disprove supernatural. All I meant to do was point out that just because every time you do “a” b happens that doesn’t mean a causes b to happen. Now if you have no positive reason to believe there is some other cause you will likely stick with a causes b. but I’m just noting that if somehow you were to find out that really there is some other cause that isn’t a contradiction to your observations. Now you are right you still need proof beyond a reasonable doubt that there is some other cause. I say it’s Hashem and I know I have not provided proof for G-d’s existence but thats not my point here.
lakewood and maybe for real,
Here is my point:
Premise: I observe something and it happens every time without fail. This same test (e.g. dropping an apple) works for any one who tries it.
conclusion: It must be that gravity is causing this to happen.
However this is a fallacy. To break the connection between the premise and conclusion all one has to do is prove that the premise does not necessitate the conclusion. In which case the burden of proof is placed back on the one who presented the argument.
Now it could be that there is some other factor causing the apple to fall that is always there when gravity is there. Now you may say I have to prove that. But really all I had to do was show that your premise does not necessitate the conclusion and the burden of proof is back on you.
It happens to be that there is evidence of Hashem and the Torah but again I will not get into that in this thread.
lakewood,
I wrote my post for the OP to read. I think he already believes his statement and also in krias yam suf. I was not trying to prove either point. All I was doing was saying how I also came to his same conclusion and think it fits into the Torah well. If you want proofs for the Torah perhaps you can start another thread on the topic. Also OP explained his reasoning but maybe I can write in more detail why I think it too.
For real,
Which statement needs evidence? As far as krias yam suf goes I assumed OP believes that it did happen, so did not feel a need to bring proof. If others don’t believe in it perhaps there is a more appropriate thread for discussing such matters.
“1) We see it work out and we assume it will continue to work in the future.”
I’ve thought about this before. Just because an apple falls from the tree a million times whose to say it should do the same the millionth and one? I don’t know but we call it gravity and it works.
But the reality is, that there is no gravity, there is no nature. There is just Hashem. Every time that apple falls it is because Hashem made it happen. And that why once in a while gravity doesn’t work and you have crias yam suf. Because Hashem is the one doing it. Now Hashem keeps things going in a natural way so we could be tested in either believing in nature or Him.
I forget the source but I believe it’s been said that the difference between nature and a miracle is repetition.
rabbiofberlin for the sake of this discussion I will assume you are right. However I would add that doing what a rav says doesn’t have to mean leaving your brain at the door. For example someone could have an opinion on a matter but do what a rav does because he trusts his opinion more than his own. Other examples, if I think I should do one thing about my health but the worlds top doctor(s) believe I should do something else it would be best for me to follow their advice.
You must follow what the gedolim say even if they tell you right is left and left is right. I think the question here is, is this letter a forgery or not. Call your rav and ask him if you have to do it.
I also am not the biggest fan of the use of the term “ultra orthodox”. However the terms ultra orthodox and yeshivish are often used to describe the same people. In general the vast majority of such people where black and white etc. some don’t but the vast majority do. Now the same with Modern orthodox the vast majority don’t only wear that but some do. And there are shades of grey in between (or maybe shades of blue shirts) but anyways thats not the point.
From my experience its common for people who consider themselves to be modern orthodox/ YU/ left wing yeshivish/ whatever else you want to call it to show a lot of hostility towards the frum community. And although there are many in those more “modern” communities who are very makpid on halacha there are also plenty who are not, some perhaps only out of ignorance. It is not uncommon to hear the young people in such communities ask things like are you shomer? (referring to shomer nagia) Where as I haven’t heard that in other communities. So yes its possible im wrong but I’ve just heard enough similar stories from many people in person and these people like to bash on a regular basis. For example one person spits on someone and then all of a sudden its all the “ultra” orthodox who are horrible people.
I’m sorry if I offended you I did not mean to. Just as I was right about you not being “yeshivish” and you could probably guess with a good chance of being right more about me than I have writen, I think there is a good chance the person telling the story does not like “yeshivish/ultra/chareidi” very much. Again I am sorry if I have offended you.
jewishfeminist02
1. If they were identified as yeshiva bachurim its probably not because they were wearing jeans and tshirts. More likely they were dressed in black and white ie like yeshivish/ ultra orthodox do. Also if they weren’t then someone would have helped. But lets see what the OP has to say.
2.”I was discussing travel tips with one of my close friends whose daughter had already spent a year in israel” The story was said in the context of tips. What tip would you take away from a story trying to bash yeshiva bachurim?
3. Because someone yeshivish would have positive things to say about learning not just attempting to put down yeshiva bachurim
4.”I was discussing travel tips with one of my close friends whose daughter had already spent a year in israel.” So what tip would you take from the story? Don’t fall under your suit cases? pack lighter?
5. Someone who was a yeshiva bochur or part of thier “social group” ie “ultra orthodox probably would not have told the story in that context. havings said that they are the only group who as a general rule keeps shomer nagia.
btw- you didn’t tell me if you were yeshivish or ultra orthodox but I can with a high degree of certainty guess you are not. Am I wrong?
OP- You can draw 2 conclusions from the story
1. Your friends conclusion, that the “ultra orthodox” are horrible people and you should not send your daughter to Israel or
2. your friend is prejudice to the “ultra orthodox” b.c. on some level she realizes her group doesn’t keep shomer negia (some do but many dont) and that she has to speak lashan hora about torah observant Jews to justify her life style. In Psychology its called cognitive dissonance its easier to change your view of reality than change.