CS

Rso:
Gutte voch all.
“But if “even the buttons have been polished”, i.e. absolutely everything has been done, then “the Am” caring about it is included and has already been fulfilled. On the other hand, if it’s necessary that “every regular man woman and child care about” Mashiach coming, and that is not yet the case, then the buttons haven’t been polished.”

Did you not see my post to laskern several above yours? (My post to Sam and to laskern were posted in the wrong order so it could be confusing.)

I’m any case one has nothing to do with the other. I can elaborate if you didn’t see the post. But it’s on p 32. If you can read it and get back to me if it’s still unclear that would save time.

YR
“My point was that Hashem didn’t give over his every power to the Rebbe. In my mind that’s still kefira. I have met lubavitchers who believe that the Hashem gave over all his powers to the Rebbe, and some say, even placed himself in the Rebbe’s guf, and THEY TELL ME it’s kefira, because I believe that Hashem has limits! It’s not that Hashem has limits, it’s that there are certain things Hashem doesn’t do, such as give over all his powers to a ben-adam.

This is why “The Rebbe runs the world” is kefira, plain and simple.”

Hashem does give over some powers to tzaddikim but not all. (As we learn by navi with Eliyahu Hanavi who was allowed one key out of three.) this is the idea of tzadik gozer

As far as putting Himself in the Rebbe you’re misunderstanding. The point is we ALL have Atzmus umehus inside of us. As the Alter Rebbe says in Tanya perek beis that our neshama is a chelek Eloka mimaal mamash. And the essence of our neshama is one with Hashem.

Btw this provides further explanation on the Zohar that Hashem Torah and yidden are all one (@laskern):

The Torah is one with Hashem because it is His Chochma and He and His chochma are one as the Rambam explains, that He is the knowledge, knower and known unlike people where they’re three separate things.

The problem is most of us have this reality covered up by other likes, goals and pleasures, and we only see this truth when a yid has mesirus nefesh. The Rebbe lives this reality where all he wants is what Hashem wants, for the reasons Hashem wants it (for example wanting moshiach because shechina and yidden are in golus, not because of side factors such as wanting an end to sickness and parnassa worries).

But this is the way we really all are deep down inside and seeing the Rebbe living our reality of being one with Hashem helps us tap into it.

Ie the Rebbe expresses atzmus umehus, not replaces or usurps it cvs.

YR:
“Of course not, because if a Chabadnik says outright the Rebbe is not Moshiach anywhere but on the internet he gets run out of Chabad.”

Na like I said we are not into ousting people except in severe cases with no alternative, and that certainly wouldn’t qualify. Ironically I meant it the opposite way that teachers are afraid to talk about it in many cases because parents will get upset that were discussing something controversial that they’d rather avoid especially with the painful gimmel tammuz memories.

“But the Rebbe is not, cannot be, and will not be Moshiach. There’s a good reason why no nonlubavichers believe it. It doesn’t fit according to any halachos at all.”

Funny you say that because there definitely is place to say that in either case. Sdei chemed and Abarbanel say the preferable option is from the dead. Rashi and medrash say moshiach will be revealed and then concealed before he is finally revealed. We were discussing SPECIFICALLY the Rambam which i doubt you have studied much in depth yourself if you write so dismissively.

“I’ve seen Chabadniks twist the Rambam more than the Christians twist the Torah to get their Moshiach to fit.”

Ignoring the d is respectful comparison, yeah there are many lubavitchers who haven’t studied the Rambam in depth and have only surface level understanding. I’ll admit I wrote some nonsense up myself when questioned on the Rambam the first time this came up on the 19 p thread, so I realized when I was shown why what I was saying didn’t hold up very well that I had better get better educated on the topic before I comment further on it. Which I have now. There is still more to look into (mm etc.) but I think I have an understanding that has satisfied me (I have challenged 5 people on the topic) and am happy to look further if something doesn’t hold up.

Sam
“Halevay we should hear BEKAROV!! Shofro Shel Moshiach.”

I think we are already on a spiritual level but yes we should finally see all these spiritual things physically as well!! I learned that the shofar represents an awakening by Hashem, an inspiration towards teshuva, and as it will be very powerful it is referred to as a shofar gadol. People are searching for meaning and stronger connection to Hashem both not yet frum and frum alike nowadays. I even see this by the non Jews in levels never before seen in history.
As the navi foretold that in those days there will not be a hunger for bread, nor a thirst for water, rather (a thirst) for the word of Hashem.

Ca
“Cs

I read it again and this was the jist of it

You can want moshiach to come but if you want him to come now you better be completely ready spiritually”

Thanks for sharing. Although I don’t think I’ll ever be perfect but yes awaiting the Geula encourages us to do the best we can (especially knowing that once moshiach comes, everything we ever did will be known to everyone, and also that only now we have the opportunity to change the world, so we should take advantage while we still can)

Laskern
“CS, The Klei Yokor says that Yaakov Avinu could not reveal the time of redemption because if people know that it will not be in their time, they stop hoping, be meyaesh, give up and forget that they are in galus and will not do anything to bring it and thereby they are postponing it more.”

Yes that is brought in the sicha. But the Rebbe asks why would Yaakov Avinu want to tell them to begin with? He couldve figured that out himself.

So the Rebbe explains that the ketz then was yetzias Mitzrayim, which could have been the final one if they were zoche (not the Geula were still awaiting) and he wanted to encourage them to put in special effort to ensure that no chataim would prevent it from being the final one.

However Hashem wanted it to be completely by their own efforts so by him not telling them, they would have a more complete Geula.

Rso
“True. But that’s only when judging the person who said it. When a statement is clear apikorsus, as that “Hu Elokeinu means the rebbe” statement is, you don’t need the full picture to announce that you yourself, and your group of chassidim, are disgusted by it.”

Yeah I had said that in my original response….

YR: with your second post I don’t disagree with anything you said. I just also know that as Nossi hador, the Rebbe was the Rebbe of Every Jew and looked out to help even those who fought him. And we understand the Rebbe continues to be Nossi hador and involved in world events without change just as belt . (or we would’ve collapsed a long time ago). The only thing that changed is that we can’t see him which is a big test in emuna and all but the rest is still there.

I learned a fascinating sicha on this week’s parsha. Bikesh Yaakov ligalos es haketz that he wanted to reveal the ketz (which would have been yetzias Mitzrayim) so that they would work extra hard to ensure that no chataim would mix in and they would be worthy of the final Geula then. But Hashem didn’t allow him to tell them because if he had – it would’ve be their own avoda as they would have had this extra help from Hashem – and Adam rotze bkav shelo yoseir mitisha kabin shel chavero.

I find this so relevant to now. But we will win. And we will greet moshiach very soon iyh! Because knowing he is near, even if we don’t know the exact date helps us to redouble our Avodas Hashem to get the job done.

YR: “First, CS, we have no clue of it was recanted! Second of all if the Yated, Ami or Mishpacha, would put a picture of a gadol and write “Hu Elokeinu” they would be boycotted and have to close down the next day! Certainly no one would let them into their homes, even if they apologized.

Yet Beis Mashiach does the same thing, Meshichist Chabad says “Meh, just don;t do it again” and they keep selling thousands of copies! CS, let me tell you, this would not happen in ANY other frum community”

I thought you said they apologised? In either case I never heard of it and never came across anything like that so I can’t really comment on things I don’t know about. When judging you have to hear the full picture and I don’t. What I do know is we take halacha very seriously and strive to go lifnim mishuras hadin.

YR good to hear you again. I’m really enjoying some in depth learning and challenging on the topic of can the Rebbe be bchezkas moshiach now. They don’t teach this stuff in school really it’s too touchy. When I finish my research I’ll be happy to share with you.

Anyhow “Now we in lubavitch are the last ones to rush to do that and we take it very seriously.”

What I mean is we don’t just yell kefira when we hear something we never knew before or don’t like the sound of (as I’ve come to see some people do here.) to call something kefira we go through the whole due process of vshoalta vchakarta vdorashta heitev. And if after all that it does turn out its actually against halacha, then we will cut them out. But we don’t take cutting out lightly at all. And I don’t think anyone should.

Syag:
“Most (if not all) of the gedolei Hador, including Rav Chaim Kanievsky to this day have done the same thru advice and brachos etc. I even know much “smaller” people (unknown people who are huge talmidei chachamim and serve kehillow or yeshivos but are not widely known) who do so even today.

This seems to have been brought by CS and chossid as “proofs” of the rebbes omniscience, so it makes me wonder if you/they are aware that this is something that we find across many many gedolim and tzaddikim of past and present.”

Yes we know that. (Although there are stories where people asked for promises from various contemporary Gedolim / Rebbes and were told if you want a promise, not just a Brocha, you can only find that by lubavitch. Don’t know if this is helpful because I don’t know by heart where to find it amongst the thousands of others, I just remember the story itself. But as it’s relevant I thought to mention.)

SH:
Two things. Regarding your mm that YR posted, see chelek beis lekutei sichos p 518 where the Rebbe writes that he FR could be moshiach because he could have techias hameisim as an before the general techias hameisim. (This has happened to individuals throughout history see avoda zara 110b)

“Regarding issues like this the Rebbe explicitly said to ask Rofim Yedidim, and follow majority opinion. And we all know what Drs say about homebirths.”

It actually depends on the country and I did the medical research as stated.

“Halacha is quite clear on this as well, the famed Posek Rav Menashe HaKatan, the Ungvarer Rov, wrote vehemently against the home birth movement, and said that if CVS something were to happen to mother or baby, the mother and or those who talked her into it are Mischayev BeNafsham. Will post source soon.”

I called a Rav who said that as long as it’s not more of a sakana than a usual birth (high risk etc) its fine.

Only after that I wrote to the Rebbe, because even if the medical factors of home birth and hospital birth cancel each other out and are equally safe, (not the place for it but what he research of my location showed and medical professionals advised) there still are rare occurrences in which a hospital birth are safer (and others in which a home birth would be safer). So that’s why I wrote in.

DY: “Just to be clear, that’s not the type of rav you should be asking. You should ask someone normal”
Yeah my Rav definitely is. He also knows when something is out of his league and more of a Rebbe question.

Kcup
“The whole thing is a really strange Rorschach where they end up doing what they would have in the first place.”

Really not. If you’re sincere your not looking to do what you would prefer. You look to do what the right thing is. And it’s not always easy. I went to a different seminary than I the one I dreamed of for years because the letter was so clear that that was the right thing to do. It was one of the most difficult things for me to do, but looking back, it brought me many brachos and I’m so glad I did it.

Syag:
“k-cup, even more than the irony I find it highly unsettling that someone can need to make life altering decisions requiring urgent answers and they don’t talk to a live rav. That they are willing to depend on their own interpretation of selected passages hardly sounds responsible in “life altering ” situations.”

As I have said before and I’ll say again, anything that has to do with halacha I call a Rav. This is in addition not the opposite.

Life altering decisions can be many things, halachic and not halachic, such as where to focus my energies (teaching,’programs, best parnassa to help out my husband etc), whether to go to a certain sleep away camp for the summer, whether I should give birth at home or a hospital after doing the medical and halachic research, what should we do in our current financial situation etc etc

Username thanks for the beautiful response to neville. I forgot about that part of the post. But just to add two points:

A) you don’t bring people to truth by saying lies. Ie I’m surprised you thought that we say things just for kiruvs sake even if it’s false.

B) you used the expression a bigger mitzvah. I would correct that because halacha is halacha regardless of personal effort. But someone who technically keeps less can be closer to Hashem by virtue of effort.

For example, let’s say there’s a Rav who grew up in a chosheve family and was appointed Rav because
of that and his natural studious Aidel nature. He never really pushed himself to grow in his Avodas Hashem but just did as much as he felt like doing naturally.

Then there’s a yid born to a not frum family who started keeping Shabbos and basic kashrus. It could be he is closer to Hashem than the Rav and his mitzvos are valued more. However, I would quicker send my child for a playdate (
with no special arrangements made) by the Ravs house than the latter precious yid because of cholov Yisrael concerns, atmosphere concerns etc because the fact that he may be on a higher spiritual level than the Rav does not change the fact that movies/ non Jewish music playing in the background are not appropriate for my child.

DY:
“Mamash avodah zarah”

Mamash not. If I thank Moshe for saving the Jewish nation from extinction with his davening, would you say Mamash avoda zara because Hashem saved them? No. Hashem saved them in the zechus of Moshes davening so Moshe gets credit too. And we thank our Rebbe when a yeshua happens because it happened in their zechus etc. Obviously the yeshua itself comes from Hashem.

Same here. The Rebbe pretty much vowed he would not go to gan Eden (so he would not forget about us) until he succeeds in bringing the Geula.

The way Chabad is alive and expanding today, and more people learning Chassidus than ever etc, is due to the chayus the Rebbe is pumping into us. There is no other way to explain it. If we were just living off the Rebbe’s legacy we would be decreasing every year. And the Rebbe us certainly still urging Hashem to send the Geula and when Hashem listens to that and we see miraculous events bringing the world to that state (especially when its connected to Chabad) we can say the Rebbe is running the world the same way Torah says vayaminu baHashem uvMoshe avdoi. Eved melech melech. We have a mitzvah to honour talmidei chachamim the same way we honour Hashem etc.and rebelling against your Rebbe is rebelling against Hashem (Rambam brought as we see from Korach.)

Because it’s not a contradiction. The more we connect to the Rebbe the more we feel Hashem is real and connect to Him even stronger.

Rso (and neville):
“Sorry, but I don’t know what you’re talking about. My argument is and was that for a group that lacks in tznius compared to all other chareidi groups to lecture us on chassidus is unacceptable.

You wrote that you can’t just judge the tznius level of a community by the way they dress, which would allow you to say that my argument is wrong, and I countered by saying that you can indeed judge a tznius level. Therefore, lubavich’s lack of tznius shows something rotten at its core.

No change of argument at all.”

Ok you’re not leaving me with much of a choice I’ll elaborate for you. Tznius and yiras shomayim are things that are all around and permeate every aspect of our lives, including dress but not more than everything else, as we see from Kimchis as explained and also shaul hamelech.

Shaul hamelech is termed a tzanua by chazal not because he wore pants and not shorts. It’s because when he needed to relieve himself he used a cave inside a cave even though he was alone in the desert. Because he was so aware of Hashem’s Presence.

So that being the case, I can definitely say that you are wrong to compare the two by dress. Of course dressing tznius counts as dressing tznius and is a mitzva even if you are no yirei shomayim, but to compare the yiras shomayim and kedusha based on dress in two communities which work completely differently is silly or should I say not a fair comparison.

Now I have avoided it till now but I can give you two true examples (without names etc) one of a male and one of a female in chassidish communities who were much worse off in yiras shomayim than the in between Lubavitchers you complain about whos tznius levels aren’t up to par. (And I will still argue with you that its not a problem by the chassidish, just the in between and modern). And they dress the part. So yeah they get the credit for the dress but if they’re questionably frum then you can’t use them for your yiras shomayim comparisons.

But I’m not really interested in bringing them and if you can understand my point without that would be much better.

Unfortunately
we also have our own bad stories. The difference is that our bad stories are about people who don’t pretend to be tznius in any shape or form and are clearly questionably frum in dress and behaviour (im not talking about our in between lubavitchers at all cvs). Whereas with yours they take great pains to dress and act the part so you would take them as a fine example to measure up in numbers where lubavitch is leaving in overall tznius and kedusha when really that’s the furthest from the truth. You understand now?

Rso:
“Yes, that is hugely different. However, it is still problematic especially in lubavich where for the past 50 years everything has been, “The rebbe didn’t say it and no one else can make up their own views.” Who gave whichever mashpi’im the right to say that this type of (at the very least) questionable divination via the Igros is ok?”

I think I answered that already. Namely that people tried it to see if they could use it as one of the ways of the Rebbe getting back to them (as the Rebbe said about the FR), and as it worked and there is nothing wrong with it, it caught on.

“Btw, more in a comment to other lubavichers in the forum than to you, I find the claim that most lubavichers don’t believe in using Igros in that way strange. While I cannot claim that even most of the lubavichers that I know use the Igros, I have never before heard any lubavicher say that it is wrong.”

Agreed. The most I’ve heard is that they hold of using the iggros differently (in a way less applicable to my generation)

Rso:
“CS: “So if it works, then the Rebbe is going along with it and I couldn’t be happier.”

Just because “it works” it doesn’t prove anything. Avodah Zarah “worked” for some people, as did kishuf, but it was just as wrong as other things that don’t work.

Don’t get all riled up. I’m not comparing here. Just showing the falseness of your argument.”

Ya ya agreed. So I can just add in the phrase “and its good enough for (some of) my mashpiim, even if it doesn’t have an actual source in a sicha, and it works, then it’s good enough for me too and I couldn’t be happier.”

Rso
“Wrong. You CAN judge the level of tznius dressing by outside appearances. ”

That wasn’t your argument. You’re switching it again. Your argument was who is lubavitch to tell us to learn Chassidus if they’re less holy than us and have less yiras shomayim than us as proven by their lack of tznius dress and casual mixing?

That’s what I was addressing. To now switch it and say I was saying that DRESSING tznius doesn’t count as DRESSING tznius if it’s done for communal pressure, is never what I was saying and it is dishonest to twist my words to look that way.

YR: “I.e., those Lubavichers who deify the Rebbe.

I don’t think you’re like that, CS, but Beis Moshiach’s editors are most certainly closet elokists. They once printed Arnie Gottfried’s article that ended “Hu Elokeinu? The Rebbe, MH”M that’s who”. Which is indefensible, and they rightly got called out for it. But I don’t believe for a moment they’ve changed their shittos. Beis Moshiach’s editors have an agenda, and it’s poisoning Chabad. BTW Gottfried is the one who wrote one of the biggest pro-meshichist proof books in English, and I’ve seen his books in multiple meshichist Chabad houses. So even after that kefiradig article, he’s still considered mainstream by meshichistin.

Furthermore, Sichas Hageula almost never refers to the Shechina as the shechina, rather they always refer to it as “Atzmus Umehus”. Recent example: On Parshas vayera they wrote “it’s time to turn to HKB”H and ask him “Atzmus Umahus, please take us out of Galus!” There’s no reasonable reason for them to write this that way – except if they have a hidden agenda.

Sichas Hageula once called the Rebbe “Hakodosh Baruch Hu in a Body” years ago, and they got called out for it as well. But that doesn’t seem to spot it from appearing in meshichists homes.”

Listen I find this very disturbing and have never heard of it before. On the other hand you were quick to call me a quasi kofer for awhile and still seem to think of Rabbi wolf that way although I know that is really not true. I heard him speak myself on several occasions by nshei crown heights events etc and when I looked up that problematic quote in the magazine I saw straight away what it meant and it wasn’t how you were presenting it.

So likely, the same applies here. As you know when there was an actual case of people who were ostensibly lubavitch going against halacha under the lubavitch banner, they were put into cherem.

Now we in lubavitch are the last ones to rush to do that and we take it very seriously. Interestingly I have met Dr. Gotfryd
myself, and never heard anything like what you describe. Not that I heard him that much but still. Maybe what happened was he wrote that article and was immediately called out on it and explained how wrong it was etc. and then he recanted and has not relapsed since? Well if that’s what happened then there would be no reason to oust him from lubavitch.

In any case he is not regarded as anything special. I did come across his book in high school and was very skeptical about the whole Rambam part of his book. He is definitely not a Rav of any sort. And beis Moshiach I don’t subscribe to but whenever I have read an issue I have never found any issues with it certainly nothing like you describe. Sorry I can’t provide a better explanation- im lubavitch myself and have never heard of this. And I don’t intend to go researching dirt either. If one of the other lubavitchers has heard of this and knows more clarifying info that would be good to see.

Finally, it is quite a jump to say that because you can name one person who wrote something outrageous, the whole lubavitch needs to do some serious purging because we have a serious festering problem within. One individual who recanted does not equal a festering lubavitcher kefira problem cvs.

Syag, (mammele)
SH: “Societal pressure is a good thing, and one of the issues in many Lubavitcher communities today is that there simply isn’t any, but on the other hand, societal pressure also masks many underlying issues within the said society. I’m not going to illustrate my point, it resonates differently within every community.

Halevai we had communal pressure in Crown Heights, and Halevai people would have the sensitivity and Bushah to dress properly even if they don’t believe in it.”

Agreed. And by not necessarily I meant not necessarily. Not that every tznius woman there is not tznius in her private life cvs but that you can’t judge numbers by outside appearances in a community where they have a strong incentive to dress that way regardless of their personal private tznius.

YR, sechel etc.
“No offense, CS, but that’s a pretty cheap copout, considering the Rambam clearly writes Neherag, which implies that his criteria DOES apply to the dead. (If not, every Neherag could still theoretically be Moshiach Min Hameisim.”) Also, “Im lo Hatzliach Ad Koh” implies he’s dead, otherwise, how would we possibly know if he hasn’t succeeded? Maybe he will with more time?”

Listen I told you what he said. Then I called back to understand it better (what I’m thinking he meant was that the halachic conditions of bchezkas moshiach etc only apply to someone alive but if someone comes from the dead than they would start over. The Rambam doesnt disqualify the dead (just the killed) just tells us how halachically
we can consider someone to be bchezkas moshiach etc.)
And when I did he said it’s a non issue halachically and just a matter of hashkafa so I should talk to my Mashpia about it. And he didn’t want to explain further. With the fine line of mainstream lubavitch (believing ourselves not pushing on others) im not surprised he was reluctant. If sechel becomes a lubavitcher Rav one day I can see him saying something similar (that its a matter of hashkafa and not be willing to elaborate.)

At any case if you want to know where mainstream Rabbanim hold – not only do they not turn a blind eye to it, but if they won’t tell us themselves, they direct us to our mashpiim, who have no such compunctions…

Np:
“Wrong, because the issue is not the lack of tznius per se. It is the attitude towards that lack of tznius. Chabad’s policy towards tznius may be an acceptable for NCSY not for frum shuls and schools. We do not water down yiddishkeit to make it more user friendly. This approach has been tried by the conservative movement. They didn’t manage to conserve very much. That (I believe) is RSo’s point”

Rso: “I disagree. We’re not talking about individual acts and individual nisyonos. We’re talking about the apparent shita of a movement, and there’s no excuse for having a bad shita.”

I don’t know what you are both talking about. There is no shitta endorsing a lack of tznius. Aderabe, we start tznius from the age of three and the Rebbe discontinued the mitzvah tantz due to tznius concerns in our generation- both unusual outside of lubavitch. It definitely is a case of individual struggles.