CS

Rso:
“They are relatives through marriage who were born in lubavich and who are considered “lubavich chassidish”in their lubavich communities.”
“Then you haven’t been shopping on Kingston Avenue lately and you certainly haven’t walked into the lobby during a lubavicher chasunah for a looooong time.”

Listen rso you’re relatives don’t sound very chassidish if your lubavitcher impression of tznius comes from them and judging by the posts you’ve written. I’ve been to one wedding that had untzniusdik mingling. And I didn’t feel comfortable there at all and left shortly after I came thanking Hashem that I had never experienced such a setting before and they werent my crowd of people. I have been to one lchaim of the same sort, also very uncomfortable. And one not chassidish friend of mine had her chosson hanging around her and she introduced him to her friends. Of course is was awkward but she’s not chassidish at all.

So total that’s three instances. I’ve been to many lubavitcher weddings which were nothing of the sort. In fact my own wedding we missed the picture coming into the hall (by accident) because my husband was advised by a married chassidishe friend that it isn’t appropriate for him to walk into the hall with me into the women’s section before going off to the mens.

I’ve also shopped on Kingston many times and you see all types. The most recent trip I made I was happily impressed by the amount of tzniusdikly dressed women – far majority.

My lubavitcher friends who come from previously heimishe / chassidishe non lubavitch families tell me that in general the standard of tznius is lower than the general chassidish community, but that our chassidish girls far surpass them.

Kimchis is famous for having seven kohanim gedolim. However we learn that many did like Kimchis but didn’t have such children. I learned that the reason why is because she did it out of an inner sensitivy to Hashem’s presence and yiras shomayim. Whereas the others wanted to have famous kids…

In chassidish non lubavitch society, dressing tznius is not necessarily an indication of sensitivity to kedusha and yiras shomayim, but an indication of communal pressure. Whereas the communities that don’t work off of communal pressure but on actual yiras shomayim have similar rates to ours. It’s tough nowadays and we all work to make it better.

Rso:
“Learning Rambam is NOT learning halacha.”

Yeah don’t worry for my weekly halacha learning I learn kitzur shulchan aruch, and I know halacha lmaase doesn’t always follow the Rambam. Nevertheless yad hachazaka most certainly is a halacha Sefer.

Gotta go now YR but I think you should know by now I don’t disappear in a way to not have to answer (I’ve only done that when I felt the conversation was going nowhere and there was no one to talk to.) Im actually enjoying myself this time around. I address posts in order – holding in mid p 25.

Regarding both Rambams thank you everyone for your input. I looked both up.

So regarding the one on how to view your Rebbe, the mefarshim explain more on that halacha (TT 5:1) that it does mean that you need to see and explain everything your Rebbe does in a favourable light. You are allowed to pasken differently but not in his presence.

So regarding that paskening thing – I think we lubavitchers just don’t have the same Torah knowledge as the Rebbe to start paskening or seriously questioning the Rebbe’s Torah, as we know far far less Torah than the Rebbe. We can ask how the Rebbe reached his conclusion but we don’t fool ourselves to dare put ourselves on the same footing as if our raayos can upshlug the Rebbe.

Tzaddikim who were on the Rebbeims level did do that and we don’t view them as any less.

Regarding the Rambam and moshiach i reached the Rav (very well respected and mainstream as I said.) He said that the Rambams conditions are unapplicable to the Rebbe today as the Rambams terms were only written to determine someone who is alive. Not if moshiach comes from the dead.

YR:
“My question is merely how much longer we have to wait til it becomes blatantly clear to all that the Rebbe is not Moshiach, and that the seventh generation is over.

My feelings are that most chabad will return to the mainstream, and the rest will become elokists of sort.”

Have you ever considered that moshiach may come in the near future and answer all the questions?

YR:
“Sechel and CS (but especially CS) How long does the seventh generation last?

Is there an end point? or is the answer “as long as necessary”? (I suspect that in 70 years, when meshichsists have finally formed their own religion, they will still be talking about how we’re in the 7th generation.)”

Generally, the generations go by the Rebbe ( and the Rebbe said our generation is the final one whose job is to bring moshiach.) but I would say there is an endpoint because I recall learning a sicha of nun beis where the Rebbe said that moshiach will come in the lifetime of the people there. It is a big test of emuna for us. But then again moshiach is the grand finale of history, I suppose some drama is to be expected. (I also learned a non Chabad source – can look it up if you’d like – that before moshiach comes people will be holding on by just a rope, and then Hashem will shake the rope and people will go flying…)

“I think we’re in the eighth generation, and those meshichists who literally believe the rebbe’s a Navi (CS, do you believe the Rebbe’s literally a navi? Because Reuvein Wolf does) essentially believe that the Rebbe is a navi sheker.”

Believing the Rebbe is a Navi has nothing to do with meshichists or Rabbi wolf. You can learn the sicha yourself, Shoftim nun aleph where the Rebbe hinted as such.

And its also not so much a matter of belief as the Rebbe accurately predicted the miracles of the gulf war, and the fall of the soviet union (at the time when it looked nothing of the sort) and the subsequent immigration to israel by many Russians. (The Rebbe urged Israel to prepare to absorb them.) this is aside from the thousands of open miracles and promises the Rebbe performed for individuals.

Now of course the main nevuah of the Rebbe, and really his whole life was centered about bringing moshiach. The Rebbe spoke how spiritual revelations of Geula are already present if we just tap into it (similar to a radio that can pick up programs which were already in the air just you didn’t hear them before.) he said it would happen in our generation but didn’t give a ketz.

The Rebbe desperately wished the Geula would come in his lifetime and gimmel tammuz wouldn’t need to happen, but at some point he realized it would be necessary after all and prepared for it even as he kept hoping to change it. The Geula process has definitely sped up though, and all circles are talking about it. With the benefit of hindsight I’m sure all will be adequately resolved.

Rso:
“The same question I’ve often wondered about lubavichers associating the Rambam’s criteria for Mashiach to the lubavicher rebbe. It’s either misconstrue the Rambam or decide that the rebbe has those criteria.”

I think that’s a fair question and I do plan on looking it up

Rso
“Finally, please stop telling me that all I’m out to find things wrong with lubavich. Let’s say that that’s true. Does it make wrong things right?”

No it doesn’t. But it does make you eager to pounce on many non wrong things and even good things and see them in a twisted way.

Ca:
“Ahh, but אחר used to be עלישה בן אבוי׳ who we quote in פרקי אבות and went off the derech because he couldn’t keep the level he was on (פרגוד) and he taught ר מאיר before he went off”

Yes so what? Once he became a kofer and was acknowledged as such by everyone including himself, he was no longer a Rebbe, thus the halacha didn’t apply.

“Everyone (I think) believes the rebbe was normal just the question is “did he go off”

Na one of the main issues here is the understanding of the concept of Rebbe and the “Atzmus umehus” quote which the Rebbe said BEFORE he became Rebbe. Others have an issue with Nossi hador, also a very early theme. Moshiach was a constant theme starting from his very first maamar and only became increasingly emphasised as time went on and the Rebbes plan developed. So that doesn’t really hold water. Regardless, there were gedolim who fought the Rebbe tooth and nail for years (the main one mentioned also fought with many other gedolim and himself admitted that he will be known as a Baal machlokes just he meant it lshem shomayim) and there were many gedolim who greatly supported and thought highly of the Rebbe through the Rebbe’s whole life.

Coffee addict: regarding r meir and acher- no because there all his colleagues designated him as a kofer (a real one) and he clearly broke halacha on a regular basis. You don’t choose a non frum Jew to be your Rebbe. The Rambam it would seem is talking about Rebbe as in a teacher and guide of Torah, whose halachic and hashkafic stances may differ
From others but he is known as A Talmid Chochom and has a solid Torah basis for his words…

But feel free to explain how you understand the Rambam. I mean its practical halacha not Chassidus.

Rso but I don’t like “proving” the Rebbe as Nossi hador anyway. We view him that way and have good reason to. You don’t need to and that’s ok. But to ask if we think that way and then get all riled up and annoyed any time its mentioned as a response to a query, without providing a serious rebuttal of why WE shouldn’t, is silly

And that’s aside from the fact that it’s halacha that you’re not allowed to doubt your Rebbe, and if you do youre doubting Hashem. Hilchos TT 5:5. Somehow I don’t think people here will refer to the Rambam as an oved az cvs

Regarding the Rebbe not being able to make a mistake:

It may be helpful to understand that it’s not that the Rebbe was incapable of making a mistake as a person – no person is infallible, and I can cite you two times where the Rebbe did make a mistake on a personal level.

When we talk about the Rebbe not being able to make a mistake we mean on a communal level and that is not because of the personal greatness of the Rebbe but because of the extra siyata dishmaya a leader of klal Yisrael has.

There is a well known story with a non chassidic Rabbi (was it the noda biyehuda? Name is eluding me). He was trying out to be Rav of a learned city that prided itself on getting top notch Rabbonim. The Torah scholars of the community gathered to test him on his knowledge and presented many complex tricky halachic questions.

He answered all brilliantly and correctly, except for the last one. The leaders exchanged glances. He failed. He asked them if the last one was a real halachic case or a theoretical one. They said theoretical (as opposed to all the others). He said he knew it was because his logic can fail, he can make mistakes as a human, but since he does his best, he knows when it comes to halacha lmaase, Hashem will help him not to fail for the sake of the community

For rso: two things ( im gonna attempt a brief post please lmk whether to elaborate)

1) why did your relatives become lubavitch?
2) are they chassidish?
3) you seem to misunderstand the concept of tznius and kedusha. Tznius is a fine line as is kedusha. It is keeping up boundaries without objectifying women and thus strengthening the yetzer hara. Several examples: tamar is praised for wearing a veil while the girls by the churban are denounced for doing so as they did it to arouse attention.

Similarly you’re making a “thing” out of the comment of the Rebbe’s shushvin who definitely had no untzniusdik intentions regarding the Rebbetzin, shows more of a lack of inner kedusha and tznius than lubavitch… The chassidisher derher didn’t see it as a “thing” obviously or they wouldn’t have printed it.

By your posts logic, lev tahor would be the epitome of tznius (funny how that extreme of tznius has now led to allegations of outright lack in the worst way), the amoraim were less holy than you and had major kedusha problems because they would say kalle noeh vachasuda etc.

Not saying this to be harsh just responding to your tznius post. I’m sure you didn’t mean to sound that way.

YR I would like to, but I have two questions myself on the Rambam and would like to look it up first. I will respond on that when I get the answers to my own questions, assuming the thread is still around. Alternatively, maybe milhouse, kaiserw or others will answer you satisfactorily instead 🙂

Np:
Me:“Both false. Or shall I say the former is incorrect as the majority of respected lubavitcher Rabbonim, if not very many (haven’t done an actual poll) hold like me.”

You: “Names please”

Reasonable request but here’s my problem. Mainstream lubavitch are not out there to get everyone to hold of the Rebbe as moshiach. So the Rabbonim may not appreciate their names posted here as it isn’t a shita they necessarily wish publicised. I was thinking that alternatively I can list the few lubavitcher Rabbonim who hold that the Rebbe is unlikely to be moshiach, but then I realized I don’t know of any…. I suppose username or sechel can supply that information if it exists.

Note that you can call any lubavitcher Rav and ask about the Rebbe being moshiach. Most may deflect or downplay the question because it isn’t our focus, but I don’t know of any who will say outright that they do not think the Rebbe will be moshiach. A very respected Mashpia I know of (and respected by all communities of where he lives not just lubavitch,) when asked about the Rebbe being moshiach, simply replies, “Do you have a better candidate?”

YR am eighth mitzvah? I find that hard to believe… Maybe they add yechi on the bottom or a line about the Rebbe being moshiach (tzfatis are the epitome of extreme right). But I really don’t believe they list it as a mitzvah. If there was such a picture I would think it was a one time mistaken print.

Sorry op should have read *after all

YR
“But I’m not sure why parts of Chabad have this hangup about helping other frum yidden. I understand it’s not the primary purpose, but when you do, do it with a smile, instead of complaining.”

Its not about frum vs frum. When a frum Jew needs Chabad and the shluchim can help they are so happy to help.

Its just that shluchim are people too and as people they have limited energy and finances and it rankles to be taken advantage of. So when you have tourist after frum tourist and businessman after frum businessman visiting your Chabad house expecting hot kosher meals with many not bothering to leave a donation it creates a dilemma which shouldn’t need to be there. And that dilemma can create resentment if not addressed.

The dilemma is that as shluchim how can you turn away a fellow yid and not give him a hot kosher meal when you can, and there’s nowhere else for him to get it?

On the other hand, the hot kosher meal doesn’t come from thin air. Somebody had to make it and pay for it. In many cases the shlucha herself. And she also in many cases just had a baby or is pregnant etc. to compound the energy aspect.

So yeah, when you have these tourists and business people come in expecting a hot meal, on a constant basis, it gets very draining. It rankles even more when many don’t leave a donation and they spend on every other aspect of their trip from the airfare to the hotel to the tourist sites but are expecting free hot meals for the duration of their stay. (And of course this is not the case of an emergency- were taking about taking advantage of shluchim because you can get away with not paying even though you pay for everything else…)

At least with the not yet frum you can attribute their lack of support and appreciation to their lack of Torah knowledge and education… And as shluchim your job is to help them develop that. The community in turn reciprocates by supporting the shluchim through donations.

Another point – in these tourist spots its pretty much nonstop at least during the seasons. It’s not like classic hachnosas orchim where the scale of it depends on how much you have to give financially, and also energy wise (like right after a baby etc)

However the best way to go about solving the dilemma is by being proactive. There are shluchim where a frum guest is a rare occasion and they’re delighted to host. There are others in the tourist spots who run restaurants so that tourists can eat hot kosher food and pay for it. There may be others who don’t feel resentful because their visitors are by and large appreciative people who don’t take advantage of them. Etc.

Howzat I could answer your post based on what I know from Australian friends but since it seems sechel knows the place personally, I’ll leave it to him.

Science post 2:
Now just to add there were times when the chachamim and Rabbonim did and do Base their psakim on doctors research instead of their own knowledge of science directly from Torah, and in that case, as the science changes so can the psak. Not negating that.

And there are obvious things that do seem to contradict sometimes and do need to be explained.

For example I asked a lubavitcher scientist to e explain how could it be that the Alter Rebbe writes in Tanya (and he quotes a posuk there) that the right ventricle has no blood when it is clearly evident that it does – not as an abstract scientific theory etc. but we see it all the time as doctors do open heart surgery etc so its not made up?

So in that case he gave a satisfactory answer- that the blood referred to in the Posuk and discussed by the Alter Rebbe was oxygenated blood – as the Alter Rebbe was discussing lifeblood that gives life to the body. And that is only in the left ventricle whereas the right ventricle contains deoxygenated blood.

But the rule of thumb for any Jew should be that Torah is the absolute truth and if science contradicts, than its either wrong or the contradiction is in fact a misunderstanding.

Laskern:
“According to the Ramban that is what happened by the aigel hazahav where they wanted to replace Moshe Rabbenu then the erav rav ended up worshipping it.”

Exactly. Just to add, going to Moshe rabbeinu or any tzadik for that matter, to ask him to request things from
Hashem because he has more zechusim etc. is not a problem because all yidden are one neshama split in different bodies so it’s just putting your best foot forward. And that’s how Hashem set up the system of kedusha, that regular people receive their lifeforce through the higher neshamos of the tzadikim/ talmidei chachamim of the generation, much as the arm and foot receive their lifeforce from the brain (as explained in Tanya perek 2). Tzaddikim also help us tap into that deeper part of our neshama so we end up more connected to Hashem.

However going to an outside entity is avoda zara which is what the egel was. And we also see that going to avoda zara was a way of trying to circumvent Hashem’s system and get things not meant for us without working on ourselves in any way (as the Or HaChaim explains). So that is the complete opposite of kedusha.