CS

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  • in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1621265
    CS
    Participant

    Rso
    ” I have a long history of studying and questioning Lubavich, and not getting satisfactory answers to what started out as innocent questions – and I found them unacceptable.”

    I would say that there are likely two reasons for this: 1) you are asking the wrong people. There are many extremely learned people in lubavitch, I can list some or maybe one of the menfolk who I’m sure are following silently along can provide a more extensive list if you are interested.

    There are many regular chassidim who just accept what the Rebbe says as fact (remember you protesting what happened to Emunas chachamim?) and don’t think through logically what the actual question and answer is. The Rebbe bemoaned this by Farbrengens, when he addressed the lack of critical questions following his rashi sichos. But we definitely have many learned people, and also Roshei Yeshivos who were originally not lubavitch so they can appreciate the actual the questions and answers even more.

    2) you have an extremely strong bias which precludes you from actually having a productive, intellectual, source based discussion with them.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1621261
    CS
    Participant

    Rso

    “Did you ever read the accounts given by the only grandchild of the Rayatz on his uncle-in-law’s early life? I don’t expect you to believe them, I don’t believe all of them either, but then again, I also don’t believe most of the wondrous stories about the Lubavicher rebbe.”

    If you give weight to an individual who had a strong agenda against lubavitch and knowing the story of hei teves etc. and cite that as an acceptable source, all that shows is how your bias against lubavitch is negatively affecting your objectivity. (No I haven’t read it nor have I am interest in it)

    “I don’t give much weight to stories that Satmar chassidim tell about their rebbe, and I don’t give much weight to stories litvishe tell about Reb Chaim Kanievsky. I am more likely to believe stories litvishe tell about Satmar and stories Satmar tells about Reb C Kanievsky. All the wondrous stories I hear about your rebbe have lubavich as their source, so I see no reason to give them much weight at all.”

    For me, the fact that the Satmar chassidim regarded their Rebbe Reb Yoel as a tzadik, is good enough reason for me to err on the side of caution and treat him with that level of respect. Even if he argued with my Rebbe, that doesn’t mean he wasn’t a great person or a tzadik. Unless I had valid reason to suspect that the majority of stories said about him were untrue (such as fact checking three of the stories printed by Satmar and finding them to be made up and their attributed authors denying having ever said such a thing or contradicted their own stories or were known as liars etc ) I’ll take their word for it. Yidden are smart people and choose who they choose because they see him as authentic and not a charlatan. As the famous story of the chofetz chaim goes (may I assume you are all familiar?) “Your honour they don’t tell these stories about me or you.”

    I would say this general distrust on your part just implies a level of unhealthy skepticism of others.

    And that was even if all the stories were said by lubavitchers. But there are many many first person video recorded encounters with the Rebbe recorded by Jem said by noon lubavitchers.

    In fact there is a Sefer I heard a previously poilisher chossid was working on, documenting all the Gedolim and Rebbeim who met with the Rebbe, what they had to say about him etc. I can look into the name of it if your really interested.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1621278
    CS
    Participant

    Non political

    “1) How do you know”

    Because it has been recorded and documented by Jem who interviewed many people from all walks, who knew the Rebbe / his family in his youth.

    “2) How was he less typical then say the Gaon of Vilna?”

    Judging from what I know of the Gra, I’d say the same.

    “3) Even if he really was super duper not typical why is that relevant? Shabbsai Tzvi wasn’t typical either. In fact not only his knowledge of nigla was impressive but even more so his knowledge of nistar. The way he prayed was said to be especially impressive.”

    Generally, when masses of yidden choose someone to be their Torah leader, they have solid basis. That’s precisely why Shabsai Tzvi was so unusual, because it’s very very rare to get such a large following of Rabbanim and lay people alike if you’re a fraud. Also, how long did this major mistake made with Shabsai Tzvi last for? I don’t mean how long did it take for the last remnant to die out? I mean how long was the majority or at least half of the frum world enamored of him and his following of frum yidden growing instead of shrinking? Was it a year or two? As soon as he broke halacha, the Rabbis unanimously condemned him and he lost his large following aside from a few die hards.

    “This would be a accolade equally applicable to many of the Gedolim of pre war Europe”

    True although even then the Rebbe’s fluency (He gave a gemara shiur by heart as if he was reading from the text) wasnt as typical as it was by say the Alter Rebbe’s times.

    ” until (and including)our current day.”

    Really? I never hear these kind of feats reported on ywn, and for sure not on a common basis.

    Me: “The chassidim got to know the Rebbe and see how he was careful with every detail in halacha as would of course be expected from such a tremendous gaon”

    “Same as above”

    True not disputing that.

    Me: “We have tens of people like this within lubavitch. But we are not overly impressed with them, although we respect them greatly, because we know they are still regular people like me and you, just much farther along avoda wise”

    You: “I don’t agree. I think that If someone is a Talmid Chochom and “farther along avoda wise” that is the very reason to be impressed. The greater they are in Torah and the “farther they are in Avodah” the more impressive they are.”

    Impressed and respect is relative. I gave examples of the respect we pay such Torah/ Avoda leaders. But I wouldn’t run to go on shlichus in some far flung place without questioning how they reached that decision if it’s right for me etc. Whereas with the Rebbe, we would. Also, these Torah leaders we speak to with respect and ask and highly regard their hashkafic advice, and accept their halachic psakim. However I wouldn’t lose my tongue or lose my whole composure or shake uncontrollably etc by such leaders. Whereas someone who can see right to my soul and read my thoughts, that is understandable.

    Me: “And this is the respect I see paid by other chassidim and litvaks to their own Roshei Yeshivos Rabbanim Rebbe’s etc for the most part.”

    You: “In other words all the Gedolim are in the same category as the tens of Talmidei Chachamim in Lubavich who “we respect but are not overly impressed with”. Got it”

    I said for the most part. And yes this is what I see if them on heimishe news sites such as ywn. Lots of photo ops of tishen and weddings, stories about their learning and hashkafic perspectives etc. I don’t see this as a put down. I see this as putting lubavitch on even ground. Maybe this why we have the phenomenon of litvishe bochurim crashing our yeshivos because they think we don’t learn: maybe because they think they have tens of Torah leaders and we have one who isn’t even present physically. So we must be am haaratzim who just farbreng and drink vodka all day, go on mivtzoim and learn only our Rebbes sichos. Im saying this isn’t the case. We have many Torah leaders bh within lubavitch whose geonus can rival their litvishe or chassidishe peers. That should be normal for the Torah world. And yes we think of our Rebbe as above the norm.

    “How do you know if someone is not normal?”
    “Has reached a spiritual height that is out of your league but precisely because of that can help you in ways the “regular” Rabbanim etc can’t? When you see evidence that…they can sense and see things normal people can’t. They can read thoughts and see straight into ones soul. That’s what u mean by that proof.meaning its proof that the Rebbe is beyond our league.”

    “No, even if all of the above would be 100% verifiably true this would prove nothing at all. This is very important. In fact Rav Yaacov Hillel wrote “Faith and Folly” precisely to combat this misconception (among others). He wrote it at the behest of just about all the gedolim Sefardi, Litvish, Chassidish (see haskamos to his sefer).”

    I don’t understand your point here. Please elaborate.

    “Right, we “know who Moshe Rabbeinu was” in this regard because the entire nation stood on Har Sinai and heard Hashem speak to Moshe Rabbeinu. That was a direct national experience, quite possibly the strongest category of evidence there is.”

    Really? I always learned the national revelation to be proof for other people who present their religions as rivals to ours but not to demonstrate who Moshe Rabbeinu was. In fact, they had to follow him through the yam suf which was life threatening in order to get the Torah. If they would only accept Moshe Rabbeinu to be speaking in the name of Hashem after matan Torah, it would have never happened.

    “Get my point?”

    “Unfortunately, I do.”

    Based on your reaction I don’t think you do. To clarify, I’m not saying my Rebbe was the same as Moshe Rabbeinu (although I would say he was the Moshe of this generation – ispashtusa dMoshe bchol dara vdara.) What I am saying is that motives that your would assume for a regular individual do not apply when we’re talking about a tzadik who has no self serving motives. Another example: seeing the Holy Ruzhiner walking about in his golden boots, would you think he was into Gashmius extravagance? I would say no, obviously not because he was a tzadik and for a tzadik such mundane desires aren’t applicable. (Happens to be that there were no soles to the boots precisely so he shouldn’t benefit from them but even if he did have, I wouldn’t think of applying such motives to him.)

    Me : “Basically, when your talking of someone acknowledged by many many Torah leaders, Rabbanim etc. as a Nassi Byisrael or similar terms”

    You : “No such thing. We have addressed that claim in 2 previous threads, no reason to rehash it here.”

    Exactly. If you look it up you will see there were many laudable quotes brought by other tzaddikim and Torah leaders.

    “CS, I want to reiterate that nothing in my post is meant as an attack on you personally. I continue to have the utmost respect for you and appreciate your sincere effort in clarifying your position.”

    Thanks. I see that.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1621244
    CS
    Participant

    “Nice to say that, but it’s not really fine when I give you the literal translation of the passuk, and you say you interpret it differently as a demand. Isn’t that what xians have done with the whole Torah? Please cite me a source to back it up other than the source I am disputing, which is either you or your rebbe.”

    Hey rso I was happy to leave it at that as I believe I have explained myself adequately, and you seem to have a less pshat understanding of pshat. However since you can’t seem to let it go, I will present it in such a way that the ben chomesh lmikra can understand. I hope that will suffice and if not, than you should explain WHY instead of just repeating that its not what I said, it’s a request.

    OK here is the posuk:
    וַיֹּאמְרוּ הָאֲנָשִׁים הָהֵמָּה אֵלָיו אֲנַחְנוּ טְמֵאִים לְנֶפֶשׁ אָדָם לָמָּה נִגָּרַע לְבִלְתִּי הַקְרִב אֶת קָרְבַּן ה במועדו

    So if we were to understand lama nigara as a request, that would make no sense. Because the answer to “why should we lack (the opportunity) to bring a korban to Hashem in its right time?” Is “because you are tamei and tamei people cannot bring the korban.”

    But wait. Obviously they know that already, in fact, in the very same posuk they say “anachnu tmeim lonefesh.”

    So they werent asking why can’t they as in a request. Because they already answered their own question before they even asked it. So the simple pshat reading of the posuk is that lama nigara isn’t a request as in why not, it is a protest and demand for the right to fulfil it because they don’t want to miss out for doing something good! In that case, Moshe rabbeinu says, let me see whet Hashem says. Hashem also didn’t respond with an explanation as to why they are going to miss out. Rather He gave them a new mitzvah and opportunity so they shouldn’t miss out. I hope this clarifies in case it wasn’t clear enough before.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1621242
    CS
    Participant

    Iitft

    “Other Chassidus’ may wish that to be true, may even wish to believe it to be true however they Won’t actually believe it”

    And to me that is just another tribute to our Rebbe. The fact that we actually believe it

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1621241
    CS
    Participant

    Neville (post 3):

    “As for this tourist attraction story, you never named the rabbi in the story so how are we supposed to compare him to Rav Shteinman?”

    I don’t know his name, and in any case, seeing that for whatever reason the story was seen in an extremely negative light, I don’t think I’d be able to release it at this point due to lashon hara (just to clarify not motzei Shem ra.)

    ” I have heard personal stories about Rav Shteinman making similar comments to people in order to make them feel more comfortable. In fact, I think I’ve even heard Lubavitchers tell stories about the Rebbe speaking of mundane subjects with followers to show that he can relate to them.”

    Yeah but this is different. I’ll tell you why. The Rebbe for example once asked this American kid with the clipped on yarmulka etc. what he was into, and he said baseball. So then the Rebbe discussed with him the rules of baseball and applied it to the boys upcoming bar mitzvah (how he needs to be a player now with mitzvos not a fan.)

    Here, this was a black hatted Yeshiva bochur who the Rebbe asked about touring for himself. You don’t think he had any common discussion in learning etc they could have connected on? And the bochur didn’t tell him anything about his personal touring interests.

    “The only possible take-away you wanted from that story was to imply that the rabbi was inferior to Lubavitchers. Why do you still think we don’t see through these things? Or, at this point, have you just pulled out the stops and decided to be an all-purpose troll account because you’re angry at
    us?”

    Na neither. My point was two fold. My main point was actually emphasizing what we expect of Rebbes in other kreizin – if the bochur didn’t bat an eyelash, that would show he would think this is normal behaviour for a Rebbe.

    I suppose a secondary side point that emerges from the story is that many Torah leaders on different levels of Avodas Hashem use the title of Rebbe. Like I said I don’t think, based on what I’ve read about Rav Shteinman zatzal, that he would be personally interested in touring. This Rebbe did. So I’m not gonna treat him with the and level of respect as my Rebbe just because they use the same title. Fair?

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1621240
    CS
    Participant

    Neville (post 2):

    “I can’t speak for everyone, but I personally have not disparaged your Rebbe here. Criticizing things his followers do is not the same thing as criticizing him. His sichos on chumash are not something a random bum off the street could accomplish.”

    Acknowledging this adds to your integrity.

    “We know, by virtue of the fact that you’re a Lubavitcher, that you hold him higher than his contemporaries. If I made an account on a popular Chabad forum for the purpose of “explaining” to everyone how the Litvish gedolim are actually superior and how Chabadniks are actually “misunderstanding” everything we say about them, would you think of me as a good person? Because that’s exactly what you’re doing here.”

    Not at all. Here’s what would be the appropriate analogy:

    Neville chances upon a Chabad forum where users are questioning how litvaks could possibly regard X as a Gadol if he said xyz. Neville sees the chance to clear up possible miseducation and ignorance so he creates an account and offers to answer their questions. As he defends the litvishe positiono, he starts getting attacked that he’s trying to push his gadol on everyone else.

    He then decides to try to connect to these lubavitchers on another less controversial topic (assuming he wouldn’t walk away in disgust at that point and badmouth the I’ll mannered lubavitchers who can’t handle the answers to their own questions.) he starts a thread on the importance of kollel learning. He knows its a big focus in lakewood but doesn’t see many long time kollel learners in lubavitch. He knows they value Torah learning so he thought this would be an interesting topic to have a go at.

    Surprisingly, or maybe not by now, the lubavitchers are extremely suspicious of nevilles ill intentions and insist he answer more questions on his Gedolim. When he answers honestly as they asked,and brings his sources or evidence to back himself up, they complain that he’s disrespectful to lubavitch for daring to hold by his shittos and not apologise for them and they ask the mods to please close his account because he’s engaging in litvish propaganda.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1621239
    CS
    Participant

    Neville (post 1 for neville)

    “Okay, you may respond on the condition that you either a) apologize to belittling our Rebbeim in a way that isn’t a loaded apology like “I’m sorry you misunderstood what I said,” or b) answer whether or not you believe the Rebbe is moshiach, which is what you’ve been skirting all along.
    Otherwise, the answer is still you; you’re still the one skirting.”

    OK I find this demand ridiculous or should I say unreasonable. I definitely won’t apologise as if I did, I would be admitting that I posted that to belittle Rebbes as you say, and now I am sorry. Since that was not my intention I have no intention of apologising.

    In fact, to give a comparison, if I were to demand an apology from Sam for posting the story by the kiddush above, for daring to belittle the Lubavitcher Rabbi, I’m sure you would be one of the first to quickly point out that that’s ridiculous and in fact, by demanding he apologise for posting his personal experience and personal impression formed thereof, I am in fact admitting that the Rabbi was belittling lubavitch, not sam who is merely repeating what happened.

    My choices would amount to condemning the Rabbi but saying he is a odd case who doesn’t represent the klal, or explaining how sam probably misunderstood him.

    Since no one here is claiming the first, and giving weak explanations of the latter (as I will address), my conclusion is that I was right he isn’t an odd case and youre just demanding an apology because it’s politically incorrect.

    As for b) i don’t see why I should post my own opinion or shitta. If its to assess my credibility, than I can provide Torah Torah sources either way for that debate. In fact b is ridiculous altogether because I already did exactly that on that all too long 19 page thread. If you have anything else to ask our sources to bring that I didn’t address then, you’re welcome to bring them after THIS topic / question is clarified so we can address one question at a time in a mesudar manner.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1621237
    CS
    Participant

    Coffee addict:

    “And this is the problem

    The Baal hatanya wasn’t greater than anyone in tanach”

    Really? For the sake of a no brainer, I’m sure you hold your Rav to be on a higher level in Avodas Hashem than Achav. (Yes the temptation then was greater but im saying on an Avodas Hashem level.)

    There are many people of all grades in tanach. Nobody is on the same footing as the Avos or Moshe Rabbeinu. We know this because even Dovid Hamelech who wanted to reach the level of the Avos was unable. Moshe rabbeinu the Torah testifies about him.

    Its interesting you mention specifically the Baal HaTanya as he was held to be a higher neshama than even the other Rebbeim – the Baal Shem Tov was excited about his birth as he described him as a neshama chadasha who would accomplish great things.

    In comparison to our other Rebbeim, the Alter Rebbe revealed new G-dly concepts which were never revealed in this world before (obviously all sourced but tremendous giluim) whereas the other Rebbeims maamarim were all based off of those concepts he revealed (the Rebbe may have been an exception but even that is subject to debate and I am not that learned to comment on it). I cannot start grading tzaddikim as I am not a tzadik (or even a beinoni for that matter although I hope to get there someday) and thus cannot look into the heavenly realms for you and tell you who’s who. All I can tell you is what I see on the ground which is of course a very limited vantage point.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1620829
    CS
    Participant

    Rso regarding your assumptions of the Rebbe based on usual quotes you’ve seen from the Rebbe (btw did you learn them in context or just see a few listed somewhere out of context):

    If I would tell you “Anochi omed bein Hashem uveineichem” and “I will provide all your Gashmius needs if you listen to My commands,” you would think I’m a narcissistic lunatic or apikorus.

    However knowing who Moshe Rabbeinu was, no one of course describes him that way.

    Regarding The former quote, if I would say it, it would be untrue and narcissistic for me to believe it’s true. By Moshe Rabbeinu it was a statement of fact. In fact, he wasn’t even boasting about himself, as the Torah testifies that he was the humblest of all time. He was simply stating fact intended to help us in our Avodas Hashem (anything in Torah is to guide us in Avodas Hashem.)

    Regarding the second it can sound like a meisis umeidiach, a avoda zara etc. However with Moshe, it was simply Shechina midaberes mitoch grono shel Moshe, and the I and Me were in fact referring to Hashem and not Moshe as an individual.

    Get my point? Basically, when your talking of someone acknowledged by many many Torah leaders, Rabbanim etc. as a Nassi Byisrael or similar terms, than the same words mean something completely different than if Joe or I say them. And even if you choose to go by others who didn’t see the Rebbe that way, you can a) understand why we do, and b) be careful when you’re disagreeing with the Rebbe to word it properly and respectfully, quoting the actual dissenting sources and not your opinion etc. (In case this gets posted out of order this is the second post following the first addressed to non political and rso)

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1620827
    CS
    Participant

    Just to clarify my two posts to regarding sams story were placed far apart in the wrong order

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1620826
    CS
    Participant

    No political, Rso ( I think my reply to him addresses your post as well):

    “Once a person has chosen to believe that a certain person is a Tzadik who has no Yetzer HaRah and any of his statements are a direct expression of Divine Will no further discussion (on any matter pertaining to the Tzadik or his teachings) is possible. The strength of such a belief is precisely in the fact that no positive evidence is presented for it and therefore there is nothing to refute. Instead the focus is on wonderous and miraculous stories about the Tzadik.”

    OK I can see where you base your assumption non political as I have heavily emphasised the miracles and ruach hakodesh aspect to show that the Rebbe was not a regular person/ Rav (or tzadik as per non lubavitch perlance).

    But I was writing that assuming we shared a certain common knowledge or ground which I now see is lacking. So I’ll back up.

    If someone random came to town and performed wonders while saying strange things that no one else said, I’d agree with your post above. But that’s not the case.

    The Rebbe from his childhood on, was not typical (in an attempt at brevity I’ll leave it at that, I can elaborate more if wanted.)

    By the time he arrived in America in 1940, and the Frierdiker Rebbe sent chassidim to greet him at the port here was where he was holding, by the Frierdiker Rebbes description: “My son in law knows the entire shas with Tosfos, Rosh and Ran as well as all printed chassidishe seforim.”

    The Rebbes tremendous knowledge of Torah is evident by his Farbrengens, where he would sit for hours on end, quoting from kol HaTorah Jul by heart with no notes, a fact that greatly impressed Rabbi JB Soloveitchik zatzal.

    The chassidim got to know the Rebbe and see how he was careful with every detail in halacha as would of course be expected from such a tremendous gaon.

    Not just chassidim, people from all walks who met the Rebbe beforehand knew he was a very special young man and a tremendous gaon.

    That all went without saying. Within lubavitch, it is impressive to be a tremendous gaon, but we’re not overly impressed if it’s something the average person could do, with the time and investment put into it. We have plenty of very learned people within lubavitch, Geonim (by today’s standard for sure) etc, not like the Rebbe of course, that’s highly unusual, but very learned people. We respect them off course, we stand up when they come in, respectfully ask them on halacha and hashkafa, consider it an honour to marry in to their families and spend time around them – at their shabbos tables etc.

    We have tens of people like this within lubavitch. But we are not overly impressed with them, although we respect them greatly, because we know they are still regular people like me and young, just much farther along avoda wise

    And this is the respect I see paid by other chassidim and litvaks to their own Roshei Yeshivos Rabbanim Rebbe’s etc for the most part.

    How do you know if someone is not normal? Has reached a spiritual height that is out of your league but precisely because of that can help you in ways the “regular” Rabbanim etc can’t?

    When you see evidence that aside from all the above (which goes without saying, otherwise what are you even proving), they can sense and see things normal people can’t. They can read thoughts and see straight into ones soul. That’s what u mean by that proof.meaning its proof that the Rebbe is beyond our league. I can finish shas three times and still be as far from that as I am now. It’s simply a different status- a tzadik of Tanya.

    Btw rso, thinking of it, there were contemporary Tzaddikim who manifested these signs as well, amongst them, the Gerrer Rebbe, who had ruach hakodesh. The Baba Sali. And one that may surprise you, the Satmar Rebbe Reb Yoel who sharply disagreed with the Rebbe in regards to the approach towards eretz Yisrael etc.

    But as their chassidim treated them as tzaddikim of the Tanya (and I’ve also heard ruach hakodesh stories about the former two myself) we also regard them with great respect due to a tzadik of Tanya. With regards to Reb Yoel, while we of course hold by our Rebbes shitta, we would never put ourselves on the same footing as Reb Yoel and say things like “in my opinion he makes no sense (because of course I understand Torah better than him) and he is wrong.” Cvs that’s disrespecting Talmidei chachamim.rather we would either cite our Rebbes view on the matter, or see in his own words where he may have misunderstood our shitta. That’s where I say that expect the same from you rso. You can hold higher of your own Rebbe, but until you also know kol HaTorah Baal peh inside out yourself, don’t think you can put your understanding of nigle on the Rebbe’s level. You can say his chassidim haven’t understood this matter to the extent that satisfies me, or I don’t understand how the Rebbe’s statement here is in line with this mishna here etc. But to put yourself on the same footing and speak dismissively of the Rebbe – that is a problem

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1620805
    CS
    Participant

    Samthenylic:

    “Domem, Tzomeach, Chai, Medaber, Yehudi, AND LUBAVITCHER.”

    obviously misplaced. Nowhere to be found anywhere in Chassidus nor did the Rebbe treat other yidden like that cvs. There is the appreciation we have for having Chassidus, but that should in no way be used to put down others. Clearly bad middos, although people fall into the trap all the time. Hope many times lhavdil elef havdolos do we hear of yidden treating goyim in derogatory ways?

    Cvs to compare yidden to goyim as I said lhavdil elef havdolos. My point is that the same way yidden have been blessed with the Torah and that gives us the obligation to be more refined, make a kiddush Hashem etc. Not to do the opposite because we think we’re better.

    So with chassidim we do feel very fortunate to have Chassidus. And it is a tremendous gift. Someone who takes that pride and uses it to degrade others is defeating the whole purpose of Chassidus…

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1620818
    CS
    Participant

    Regarding the righteous indignation in reaction to the story I posted: I would understand it if it was a mashal we lubavitchers made up or even if it true, but used in a class on the “difference between our Rebbes and theirs ” (just to clarify we never had such a class.)

    But that’s not the case. It was a true story that went around the week it happened in the city it happened in. Ok?

    Now judging by your reactions, I would correct my assumption (based on my personal experience) that this kind of Rebbe is common. And just to clarify, I have heard enough about HaRav Shteinman zatzal and HaRav Chaim Kanievsky to never think of attributing this level to them. They are on the level of Toraso umanaso and could care less about touring.

    So what I see is that the bachur was shocked, but you would also be shocked because you would also expect more.

    However, the fact it did happen, and i had another similar encounter personally with a granddaughter of a similar minded Rebbe shows me it does exist.

    So would you agree with my rule of thumb that we accord due respect to Rebbes depending on their level? Or would you treat the Rebbe of my story with the same degree of respect as you would HaRav Shteinman zatzal?

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1620815
    CS
    Participant

    Rso I’ll get to your long post soon. No need to apologise for content that I won’t necessarily agree with – that’s how we can have proper discussions and get to understand each other. I just find it hard to respond to attacking derogatory tones, especially if I feel I am being misjudged and misrepresented. But I welcome open honest discussion.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1620812
    CS
    Participant

    Rso welcome back! I was looking forward to your response. Regarding pesach Sheni I think we’ve both explained ourselves so we can just agree to disagree, which is fine. Ain deioseihen shavos. I think I have solid basis to see it as a demand to fulfil the mitzvah but you can see it your own way.

    Regarding where in the thread you disliked demand, same here. It is long. If it’s important to you up on it up iyh some point and post for you.

    Regarding apikorsus cvs (and I’m still surprised by the ease with which that term gets thrown about, I’m used to the opposite within lubavitch) you may want to see the well known chazal “Im harishonim kmalachim anu kbnei adam, vim heim kbnei adam, anu kachamorim.”

    It is for that reason that amoraim cannot disagree with tannaim and a later beis din cannot revoke a gzeira of a previous beis din. In simple terms, we know it as yeridas hadoros

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1620808
    CS
    Participant

    Although I should really be Dan lchaf zechus for the Rabbi (ahavas yisrael applies to your own kreiz too not just others ;)):

    Some things given the context, can be OK, but in another setting or context can be not OK.

    For example, we’ve discussed on another thread and pretty much all mutually agreed that making a song of shelo asani isha would be in bad taste and middos, although there is nothing wrong with the Brocha itself. Similarly, my own sentence above, “cvs to compare yidden to goyim,” within the context of a discussion amongst frum yidden is fine as they all know my context, and even a learned goy changing upon it would understand. However saying it to a non Jewish audience would be wrong and a chillul Hashem although there is nothing wrong with the statement itself.

    My guess is that the Rabbi Sam is referring to only expressed himself as such in his own lubavitch shul but would never say such a thing in a non lubavitch shul. Also his full remarks have not been brought, but it is likely that his context (although I don’t like his example as as I said there is no such thing) was that we are lucky to have Chassidus and not a degrading message, just as my sentence above was a message emphasizing the teirkeit and neshama of a yid, and not degrading a goy, who we all know is created btzelem Elokim.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1620804
    CS
    Participant

    Coffee addict:

    “Moshe rabbeinu worked on himself to make himself a tzaddik (maaseh where they brought someone to draw
    him)”

    As has been noted on this forum that Sefer is highly questionable. Rashi and medrash bring how from the beginning he wasn’t a typical person- ie born walking and taking, mohul etc. That being said there definitely were tzaddikim who did work on themselves until they reached the level of beinoni, and thereafter were granted the level of tzadik by Hashem (tzadik involves control over emotions, not practical expressions of thought speech and action and therefore cannot be attained simply through working on oneself. Hashem decides who He will grant this level of avoda)

    “Additionally nowhere does it term benonim in Gemara like you, Benoni could be either someone that is “50/50” or someone that has at least one mitzvah”

    If that definition of beinoni were the case (as the Alter Rebbe brings in Tanya) there is no way Rabba would mistake himself for a beinoni (even though he was a tzadik) as he never did any aveiros…

    “We say Yosef is Yosef hatzadik because he was עומד
    בנסוין”

    Yes so he was a tzadik who stood up to his yetzer hara even in extremely difficult circumstances (beinoni), so thereafter Hashem granted him the level of tzadik (where he didn’t have to struggle anymore to fight doing bad, but fight the tolerance for bad. And he ended up a tzadik gamur as well where he completely evicted his yetzer hara and had no tolerance for it.)

    “yet there are four people who didn’t sin and only died “because of the נחש”

    Good point. Aveiros are different for tzaddikim than they are for us. For us its actually doing/ speaking / thinking something wrong halachically. For tzaddikim its not being in line with what Hashem would expect from then on their level. Ex: Dovid and Batsheva. For them its considered a chet – chet as in chisaron.

    “And I highly doubt the בעל התניא thought he was a בינוני”

    And? He was holding by the avoda of tzaddikim. He wrote the Tanya, also known as the Sefer shel beinonim, and also wrote a Sefer shel tzaddikim which unfortunately was burnt. Point being he could only write the Sefer if he was holding there…

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1620803
    CS
    Participant

    Neville- as you wish. But i hope you see how exasperating this is.

    You: address this address that
    Me: why? I’d rather stick to non or less controversial issues
    You: you always skirt the issues! You think we can’t handle it. That’s it we won you lost. I’ve wasted enough time on this
    Others: Yeah he’s right
    Me: ok if you really want to get into it… Let’s do it properly
    Neville: never mind. Don’t respond to my post.

    OK so who’s skirting now?

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1620802
    CS
    Participant

    Syag: as you wish. Btw thinking it over I was going to address yours first as it is the one with the clearest answer. Note I didn’t scold you for your sharp post – you are free to speak to me as you wish – I am no Rebbe lol. Just on a personal level its easier for me to take in a respectfully worded post and respond likewise when the post is similarly worded.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1620556
    CS
    Participant

    Syag I was thanking them for respectfully worded posts. And I meant it. I’ll probably address yours as well, if it isn’t answered by the others, dw😉. Good Shabbos

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1620529
    CS
    Participant

    Coffee addict appreciate your post as well will respond when I can. Good Shabbos!

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1620527
    CS
    Participant

    Neville thanks for writing a polite respectful post although you clearly feel strongly about it. I will respond as soon as I can. Have a wonderful shabbos.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1620413
    CS
    Participant

    Thanks coffee addict. It’s good to see that in not just talking to myself 🙂

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1620394
    CS
    Participant

    Iitft:
    “Re: Tanya
    The Tanya’s conception of tzaddik, benoni, rasha was a radical departure (unless someone can find a source) from all Jewish hashkafa prior.”

    If you’ll look into the first perek of Tanya where the Alter Rebbe defines these terms, you will find he concludes so based on many gemaras. (Probably other sources as well but I just remember all the gemaras)

    “Classical Judaism believes that a person can rise above their yetzer hara (cf Mesillas Yesharim) or the contrary,(cf Rashi “Vayechezek Lev Paroah”) but no one is born this way”

    I admit unfamiliarity with mesillas yesharim but based on what I do know, what you describe is the norm. There are the born tzaddikim who are the rare exception (such as Moshe rabbeinu who was born mohul, which is apparently can be a sign of such), and then there are individuals who worked so hard against their yetzer hara that they reached the level of beinoni on their own efforts, and Hashem then granted then the level of tzadik as a gift. Such as Dovid hamelech who stated vlibi cholul bikirbi as he had killed his yetzer through his fasting.

    Most of us aren’t created necessarily to become tzaddikim but we all have the potential to become beinonim. And if that seems mighty hard, we can have beinoni moments and try to make those the majority of our lives (perek 14 Tanya).

    In perek aleph, the Alter Rebbe states that the hamon am use the terms tzadik rasha beinoni as terms borrowed from the declaration of the Beis din shel maala, where an individual is termed tzadik (after he passes away and is judged) if he had majority mitzvos over aveiris. He is called tzadik because he was nitztadek badin. Rasha if he failed it due to his many aveiros and is sent to gehennom. Etc

    But the real meaning of the terms is as the Alter Rebbe terms them based on the gemaras brought.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1620398
    CS
    Participant

    Samthenylic

    “When we talk about being “Mekarev es hageulah”, talking about Moshiach and Geulah takes a distant BACK SEAT to doing mizvos & maasim tovim for the sake of doing “rotzon Hashem”. CASE CLOSED!”

    Sam the fact you see the two as a contradiction once more shows that you have allot to learn…

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1620401
    CS
    Participant

    Iitft

    Me “After he showed him what a beinoni”

    You “Sly answer to pull on a naive fellow but no cigar
    it means that he is less than virtually every & any born to a Rebbe’s family”

    Not within lubavitch. In fact chassidim were under tremendous pressure to choose the older son in law
    of the Frierdiker Rebbe as their new Rebbe from members of the family. They refused as they didn’t see him as “Rebbe” material. Until today, the Rashag while highly respected as a tremendous chossid etc is not seen as a tzadik of Tanya, and I don’t know about beinoni. It’s possible. Especially in his later years. But everyone agrees that the Frierdiker Rebbes only grandson was no beinoni. So no. No sly cigar. Honestly we probably respect the chofetz chaim more than the litvaks themselves, at least by one litvaks admission

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1620403
    CS
    Participant

    Coffee addict:

    “If that’s a beinoni, I guess we’re all reshaim according to the Baal hatanya and really the only tzaddikim are ?”

    See my reply to iitft above on his Tanya post. Happy to elaborate more if desired.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1620343
    CS
    Participant

    Mods thanks for the good work you do. Can you please try to post my posts in order? I forgot to number most. It confuses people when they’re out of order

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1620341
    CS
    Participant

    Post 5:
    Me: “And if we have evidence that our Rebbe is a tzadik of Tanya”

    Rso: “Evidence?! First, I was taught that we chassidim had emunas chachamim.”

    Yes what does that have to do with anything? In fact a weighty factor of ours in selecting the Rebbe was the Frierdiker Rebbe’s estimation of him. But just because we have emunas chachamim it doesn’t mean we don’t lack evidence.

    “Second, you have no evidence, just stories that you each spread about him.”

    Thousands of first person personal encounters told by the people it happened to, from all walks of klal Yisrael, on JEM, does not amount to stories we have spread about him. Lol. Aside from my own parent’s stories. Friend’s parents stories etc. (and my very own and my generations very own, as some have come out just this year by the kinnus, of course. But that’s touching on a different topic.)

    “Third, sorry, but I DO NOT believe that he was a tzaddik. Many, many zchusim, yes, but not a tzaddik. Look at the fights he had with Satmar, Rav Shach and anyone who didn’t believe in Lubavich. Look- at his self-interest in promoting himself as the Nasi of the dor (something, which I’ve mentioned in another thread, has no meaning nowadays except in Lubavich, as the concept does not exist) and the probable Mashiach.”

    Ok. I guess I am sorry for you, because you may be guilty of disrespecting a Talmid chochom (by the way you write about him as a result of your assumptions.) which is a problem halachically to put it lightly. No, I am not trying to attack you, I really just feel bad for you. If you would apply the same diligence in researching your assumptions above, as you did your fact checking on EXACTLY which year every Rebbe I mentioned above was nistalek (which is great), you would likely come away with a very different picture. I am not going to get into the dirt as that is not my role- I actually only heard of the Rav Shach debacle from this very forum- and as people were questioning me on it, I figured it behooved me to know exactly what people were on about. There’s a very factual, I would say as non biased as can be, shiur on the topic on YU. But that’s the most I’ll say on the topic.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1620336
    CS
    Participant

    RSo (I addressed the Moshiach thing first, so hopefully will be posted in order)

    “You just alluded to something that has been pointed out many times over the years. Lubavich accords respect Rebbes of earlier generation who have not been alive for many decades. Not Rebbes who were niftar relatively recently v’ein tzarich lomar live Rebbes. The most recent Rebbe you mentioned above was niftar in 5575 – over 200 years ago! Other chassidic groups mention and admire even live Rebbes with admiration and yir’as hakavod. Not Lubavich. I’m expecting you to argue, but it’s the way of Lubavich and all non-Lubavichers know it.”

    Here’s the rule of thumb: We accord respect commensurate with what makes sense. And I actually appreciate this opportunity as well, because it allows me to answer the other question that Chabad accords their Rebbe “too much” respect, so it comes off as weird and maybe going too far etc…

    So, in years of yore, when you heard stories of the Choze of Lublin seeing from one side of the wrold to another with his ruach hakodesh, and Reb Zusia looking at a person and listing all their sins as if he had committed them, to arouse them to do teshuva etc, Chabad chassidim teated and still treat those tzaddikim with the degree of awe and respect due a tzaddik by the definition of Tanya (ie no yetzer hara.) Such Tzaddikim are capable of these things.

    But when a Rebbe of today is NOT such a tzaddik, by his chassidim’s own admission, (although he is of course a very learned, even extremely learned individual, with a high level of Yiras Shomayim and an all around ehrlicher Yid who can guide and inspire others, and no one is saying not) why would you think we would respect them to that extent? That would indeed be weird.

    Now we have reason to believe our Rebbe is such a tzaddik, so we accord him that respect. Its really that simple and shouldnt be offensive.

    As far as a lack of respect altogether, chas vsholom! In fact, in two cities where I personally have lived, visiting chassidishe Rebbes would davka daven by the Lubavitcher yeshiva even though there was no lack of other shteiblach and yeshivos of other kreizin. Why would they choose to daven by Lubavitch if Lubavitch is generally disrespectful of Torah leaders chas vsholom?

    If anything, because we were blessed with such a Rebbe, we tend to err on the side of overestimating other Rebbes.

    I remember the time in high school when we heard how that day’s story in Yeshiva was that a visiting Rebbe had asked a Lubavitcher bochur a question. The bochur reverently listened, and then registered shock, before he recovered and answered.

    The teacher was curious what had transpired, so he asked the bochur what had happened. The bochur said the Rebbe had asked him what the good tourist sights were. He hadn’t expected such a question from a Rebbe.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1620325
    CS
    Participant

    Rso
    “At least you could learn from CS who usually writes respectfully, and certainly tries too. (Who would have thought that I would compliment CS?!)”

    Appreciated.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1620324
    CS
    Participant

    Rso
    ‘”Are you by any chance an alias of CS, because your reasoning is so similar to hers? Or is it perhaps that that is the way you are taught to learn in lubavich – attack the person who criticizes you without actually paying attention to the words they said.”

    As you falsely restated what I said below, maybe you should apply your message above to yourself (just replace the word Lubavitch with whatever kreiz you hail from). If you find that disrespectful, I didn’t write it, nor did Kaiserw… Honestly, yes Kaiserw was a bit sharp and condescending but you have been too. Maybe try to write with the same respect you want us to write you with.

    “My labeling what CS wrote as apikorsus had nothing whatsoever to do with the definition of tzaddikim. It was because she said that there aren’t any leaders or tzaddikim in the generation of a high caliber.”

    False. I said ““There is a general lack of the kind of leadership and tzaddikim of yore- even during the Rebbe’s days there was a lack of tzaddikim with NO YETZER HARA.”

    Yes that should obvious. And yes, you have learned Tanya (I remember from the other thread as well, I was impressed by that) so you of all people should not have posted that to criticize and bash, as you know full well what a tzaddik gamur of Tanya, is and yes it is unfortunately a statement of fact that there is a dearth of tzaddikim On THAT LEVEL TODAY.

    Changing what I said to level further apikorsus charges is a disgrace. I would expect you to apologize for it, not for me, as I forgive you on the grounds that your passion played with your head, but on the grounds of retaining your integrity in this ongoing discussion.

    Now I will address your latest argument, about what you claim to be a lack of respect within Lubavitch towards other kreizin, although I think I did write up some solid points already. Happy to continue to discuss but lets try to keep it honest and civil.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1620316
    CS
    Participant

    Rso

    “You said we have to demand Mashiach. As far as I understand the Lubavicher rebbe said you have to demand Mashiach. Although I don’t believe in that at all, I didn’t dispute that – at least not since this latest round started on November . ”

    Right. You did before that. Which is what I was responding to when I restated the question. I suppose I could just stop here, as it seems you have retracted your objection… But because I took awhile, I will finish off…

    “But I DID dispute your claim that the sources you quoted (the first of which was lama nigara) were demands and I demonstrated how none of them were. (The only exception being the fifth source, quoted later in the discussion, that the Chofetz Chaim did write that we should demand Mashiach, and I was the one who presented the source!)”

    The one I said was a demand was Lama nigara. It is a demand to have the right to bring the korban pesach. Again, Lama nigara doesn’t mean, ” Is it possible for us to bring the korban too somehow?” It means, “Why should we miss out?!” Which is a demand for the opportunity to bring the korban Pesach.

    As far as it being addressed to MOshe- it doesn’t matter- by the harsh punishment of Korach, it was made abundantly clear, and as Moshe and Aharon said themselves “Lo aleichem tlunoseichem, ki im al Hashem.”

    The only difference was that by Korach it was an inappropriate challenge, whereas Pesach sheni was a welcome challenge, as it showed the Yidden’s affinity for the mitzvos.

    Now, in the follow up, there were objections brought to any kind of strong language when requesting things from Hashem. Hence, I brought the other sources which were all strong language and not a meek request.
    Micheini na- an implied threat, or at least a “stomping of the feet” if you will, if Hashem doesn’t forgive the Yidden, not a meek request.

    etc.

    and I wrote by those demand OR strong request for that reason…

    “Now, I can’t make it any clearer than this (and if you still don’t get it, then you really shouldn’t be posting to a forum which requires a little basic clear-thinking): DO YOU ADMIT THAT THOSE FOUR SOURCES YOU QUOTED ARE NOT, I REPEAT, NOT, DEMANDS? Yes or No, PLEEEEEAAAAAASE!”

    Yes not all 4 are demands (I only said the first one was and I still see it as such.). Happy now? But the question had been lost. And your original question I was answering you retracted upon seeing the chofetz chaim. So we’re good now on that one. Yeah?

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1619884
    CS
    Participant

    Thanks kaiserw. Also the quote from Rashbi “Roisi bnei aliya vhem muatim” brought by the Alter Rebbe in perek 10.

    Btw if youre honest rso I don’t know where you base your gripes on an intellectual ground ( I suppose in giving in on this thread not addressing the Rebbe etc as yall can’t seem to get past it. I still am looking for your response to the source of what you think is wrong with how we request moshiach abnd Geula).

    We in lubavitch have no problem giving other tzaddikim their respect. At Farbrengens, Chabad.org etc we quote stories of the heilike ruzhiner, choze fun lublin, reb zusia etc with the same respect and awe we accord our Rebbes.

    But when the chassidim and talmidim of today don’t consider their own Rebbes or Gedolim to be tzaddikim of Tanya (absolutely no struggle with their yetzer hara sas it is drugged / gone entirely), (and I have evidence of this of youd like) then why should we?

    And if we have evidence that our Rebbe is a tzadik of Tanya, then why do you bristle at the lack of respect? There’s no lack of respect just evidence based observation.

    We apply it within lubavitch as well: reb sholom mordechai, if you’ve listened to his Farbrengens or read his books, has reached levels in Avodas Hashem higher than the rest of us. Yet we don’t call him shlita or Rebbe because he is not a tzadik of Tanya (as evidenced by his stories of his struggles with his yetzer hara.) this is no slight to him, nor does he consider it one.

    We definitely respect him and admire him as a chossid and Mashpia, because he is, but no one is according him the respect we accord our Rebbes because he isn’t. (There are other lubavitchers like that as well, just he is one of the most famous outside lubavitch.)

    So on an honest intelligent basis, I don’t see any reason for your gripe. If there is something faulty I said here you can lmk

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1619774
    CS
    Participant

    I don’t know know syag that’s not the way I see it. The way I see it, neville and Co see any thread I open as a subversive attempt to convince everyone that the Rebbe is moshiach. And that is not what I meant.one thread I offered to answer others questions on what meshichism is, how it is etc m wasnt my idea. Then this thread I thought we could all agree on other topics within moshiach and Geula. But neville just can’t let go of the idea of the topic of moshiach and Geula being synonymous with the Rebbe being moshiach and me trying to subtly get that across. Which is quite frustrating for me.

    Maybe I should just go back to my lubavitch groups. At least we understand each other. Here I feel either i am misunderstood or am accused of misunderstanding others.
    I may just have to join stuartw on his coffee break if there isn’t a common language

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1619379
    CS
    Participant

    Syag this is neville “That would be hook-line-sinker we win/Chabad showed its true, ugly colors/we can finally stop talking about it.”

    Yes I stand by my words within context. I don’t think they’re problematic. I don’t think neville truly thinks they’re problematic within context. He looking for we win Chabad loses in his own words.

    And this isn’t the first time he’s done this. My last few responses to neville have been me clearing myself of things he’s attributed to me that I never said or meant.

    OK this one I said but he’s making a huge deal out of it when I think it honestly isn’t within context. and im kind of fed up with his last few posts.

    I do enjoy neville many times. He’s witty (his name even) and he can play fair. But the last few posts he clearly isn’t interested in playing fair. He’s interested in making Chabad look bad…

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1619315
    CS
    Participant

    Rso, ok I admit I’m trying to figure out what the problem is. I remember somewhere along the line, you had a problem with saying “moshiach needs to come already .” I thought it was the strong language – I used the word demand. So I brought other cases where demands / strong language was a good thing.

    You responded by saying those weren’t demands they were just strong language.

    Ok im honestly confused and figured I should just clear this up before nitpicking over each source – whether it’s demand or strong language because I don’t see what the difference is is. if the problem is speaking up strongly, it doesn’t matter what form it takes. So can you help me understand what exactly is the issue, and where your source for that is, so I can understand how my sources do or do not address it?

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1618890
    CS
    Participant

    Neville I’ve addressed enough of your posts that I see you’re just looking for a crack to jump in and pounce because you think its fun. I’m not going to address your last one for now because I’m not looking for further static. But yes you’re welcome to leave as your obviously just looking to cause trouble. That’s not my kind of fun.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1618888
    CS
    Participant

    Rso your jumping too fast. I know I’m referencing from before that. Because my renewing the thread was to address the original issue you brought up beforehand. Patience please. I’ll get to it very soon iyh

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1618889
    CS
    Participant

    Coffee addict in case you were wondering, we mean the translation – hmm hard to translate lol. I guess in actuality. The same way we mean teikef umiyad

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1618774
    CS
    Participant

    Listen people I tried opening the understanding chabad thread earlier today, it has not been approved. I agree with the mods decision- it does infringe on extremely delicate subjects, and they will probably frequently find themselves in a quandary whether they can approve many posts. So sorry to disappoint you guys, but no need to hold your breath. You can discuss with any proper Lubavitcher chossid, or walk into your nearest yeshiva. As for me, I will continue to “skirt” topics that I feel are too controversial/ triggered, because I see they cannot be addressed openly, respectfully and honestly on this forum, which I am fine with.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1618769
    CS
    Participant

    With regards to showing I can be wrong, I have np with that if I believe that to be the case. in fact I have already admitted earlier on this thread to you when I realized the answer didnt satisfactorily adress the queston and that I dont know the answer

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1618762
    CS
    Participant

    RSo: In short, I wrote demand/ strong request, because, as I recall, you had a problem with any kind of strong language. You chose to emphasize demand over request. To me it is a matter of semantics. But i would need to look up the start of your question which is somewhere on page three, to be able to properly post your original problem, and thus show these sources adress that. No time though right now

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1618623
    CS
    Participant

    OK I responded to the bit about the chofetz chaim which in turn engendered more questions. My fault. But neville, again you are conflating anything to do with moshiach and Geula to buy synonymous with who moshiach is. There’s a whole world of learning on the topic aside from that. That is a speck in the topic..if you want to see what I wanted to explain, just read the op. It’s not hidden … Very first post goodness. As far as the meshichist thread, I didn’t open it. I agreed to answer questions posed by others. So you’re really reading things that aren’t there.

    I would like to continue on topic, and as I see there is interest, I will attempt to open a thread entitled understanding Chabad where I can attempt to answer more more difficult questions on Chabad such as some above, as long as its a fair discussion. Ie don’t ask me to be honest, and not skirt topics, but then get mad if I say something not pc even though it is true, or you can at least see why I would hold of it even if you may disagree… Because that would just shut down any discussion, as I will stop responding if it is a bash thread instead of an honest conversation… Have your pick. Don’t ask questions if you don’t want honest answers or are just looking to bash things…

    Anyhow I will respond to rso post here and continue the conversation on Geula, awaiting the Geula, and redirect the other posts to the other thread (assuming it’s approved) so this one can be on less controversial topics within moshiach and Geula, which I do want to explain and also understand if there is legitimate opposition to demanding moshiach etc. which is why it isn’t universal. Or if it’s just an attitude with no backing .. Etc.

    And feel free to post more signs of how the world is approaching the Geula state, there is much to discuss on that!

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1618375
    CS
    Participant

    @syag

    Fun fact and story:
    Fun fact: the Rebbe told the heads of the first lubavitcher seminary in EY that their tznius standards should be “azoi vi BY”

    In fact there is a whole tznius club movement based on this in EY where the Lubavitcher women went to a group of BY principals and asked them detailed questions about their tznius Standards so they could tell their club members exactly how the Rebbe wanted them to dress…

    Story: when I was in high school our teacher, who also taught in the local Yeshiva, told us how a litvak came storming in the doors of Yeshiva questioning how our Rebbeim could dare denigrate the chofetz chaim by ranking him as a beinoni. After he showed him what a beinoni of Tanya is (someone who has a yetzer hara but never does any aveira, big or small, in thought speech or action) the guy left expressing that not many litvaks think that highly of the chofetz chaim

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1618371
    CS
    Participant

    @coffee addict see the op where I explained the title

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1618373
    CS
    Participant

    Samthenylic
    I have seen from your other posts that were not talking the same language and you have no clue about moshiach and Geula, so I won’t take your fiery post personally nor am I particularly impressed.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1618414
    CS
    Participant

    Rso your post deserves a longer response which I will post iyh at my first opportunity

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1618265
    CS
    Participant

    Post three (final): What I actually find ironic neville is that there are plenty of things that lubavitchers wish on other yidden: that they all keep Torah and mitzvos. That they learn Chassidus etc.

    What you won’t find any lubavitcher who frequents this forum (as there is the EY branch of meshichism which is more extreme I suppose, like all EY things tend to be in the frum world) trying to convince any non lubavitcher to accept the Rebbe as moshiach. We obsess with the topic of moshiach, and find everything about it fascinating. There is a whole world of learning within that topic. The tiny detail of personal positions on that topic is not even discussed regularly or often within lubavitch ourselves, and when it is, it is by analysing or discussing the various sources for either side, many of which are based of the Rebbe’s sichos ( used to prove either side.) But non lubavitchers who haven’t even learned a sicha are not shayach to the discussion, at least in such a forum. It’s like talking to the vegan about korbanos. Or the goy about how you live your life based on bitachon. Too different to come together on unless you’ve learned sichos yourself

    So I find it ironic that you think that everything is wink wink subtly convincing you that the Rebbe is moshiach when every (ok most) lubavitchers actually shy away from the topic and aren’t so conformable with it altogether.

    However I don’t know if we’re correct. You could argue that moshiach is something that will affect the whole klal Yisrael so you should know what we whisper about as we are the ones who Koch in moshiach.

    If you really want to see sources for both sides, I suppose you can attempt opening a thread entitled who can be moshiach? And we can discuss the topic from a learned point of view. Maybe the mids can be helpful by blocking solely emotional posts or rants etc so it won’t shut down?

    But for my part im very happy just discussing things that we can agree on, or at least bridge the gap on, and hearing
    different thoughts etc

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