CS

“Rav Aharon Feldman has written* that even if it’s not problematic to consider a dead
person to be Moshiach who will return, it cannot be considered sensible to believe
that out of all the niftarim of Klal Yisrael, Moshiach will be the Lubavitcher Rebbe.

*in The Eye of the Storm”

I completely understand that. And I don’t think it’s necessarily worth rebutting even though I know for myself why that’s not the case.

To give you an example: I have a yid I’m in contact with who unfortunately doesn’t yet keep shabbos. Once I broached the topic with her and she explained to me that she needs her job because she needs to pay her rent and bills, and if she quits her job who will pay her rent?! It doesn’t make sense.

Is her logic sound? Yes. Do I agree with her? No. But that’s because I have a different mindframe which includes living above nature, Hashem’s abilities etc. But she’s not there. So all I can do (aside for offering to fundraise around for her rent if she takes the step) is draw her closer until she gets there…

“I think you missed the point. How do you know that what you consider “resonating with your neshama” is not yetzer hara? What about all the born again xians for whom oso ha’ish “resonated” with ther souls? What about all those people in love with people with whom they should not have a relationship for numerous reasons who feel the “resonation”? The fact that you believe that what resonates with your neshama is pure does not prove anything.”

We are talking two different things. I guess if you’ve never experienced it you won’t know what I’m talking about. But I also know this feeling is experienced by many I have come in contact with as well.

Firstly it is silly to bring examples from non Jews etc because they don’t have a neshama so they can’t experience what I’m referring to. (Ill explain what that is soon.)

Secondly people fall into things that help them justify their wrong decisions or even help them become better people in some way, or feel good etc. And that can all be anti Torah. I’m not talking about that either.

So what am I talking about? How about the shabbos atmosphere after candle lighting. That neshama sense of holiness. Goyim don’t have that. So that’s a start to understand what I’m talking about.

But really what I mean is when something clicks to the core of the neshama and uplifts the whole person with the resulting joy. I feel this way when I learn Chassidus, especially when its been some time. To the point that my friends will ask me what happened to me that I’m so upbeat more than usual. They joke that I get high off Chassidus.

And its not just me. I have friends and acquaintances who have reported the same feeling when learning Chassidus.

A famous example : rebbetzin vechter, when her husband y taught her her first sicha, she asked what is this? He admitted it is the Rebbe’s Torah. (Being Satmar) she exclaimed,”THIS is kefira?! If so bring it on!” She felt its truth so deeply and felt it light up her neshama to that extent.

Its not just Chassidus. It can be experiencing a mitzva. My mother became frum this way as she studied many religions but nothing clicked and she wasn’t satisfied. As soon as she walked into her first shabbos table, the shabbos atmosphere clicked and resonated deeply, and she’s been unwaveringly frum ever since. I also felt this same neshama high as a girl when I helped a mother who had given birth out with her kids, so she could recover.

And as mentioned its this neshama resonance that makes shluchim successful with the yidden they come in contact with.

Np ah I see what you mean I didn’t need to write that bit about the FR.

Regarding the estimation of Torah leaders I think my categories still stand. The Gerrer Rebbe, Baba Sali and reb zusia for example weren’t involved with writing halacha (as far as I know) and were still seen as tzaddikim..

What I meant by Eliyahu hanavi and har hacarmel was that rashi there says that someone who is known to you to be a tzadik (or whatever equivalent term is used), you follow him unless he tells you to serve another god or permanently cancels a mitzvah.

This shows that the criterion here is not a specific list – just he is known and trusted to Torah true Jews by his behaviour etc.

Also yes Torah true adherents add value. We see that ain melech blo am, and the Kings of today are the Rabbonim and Torah leaders. If someone tells you so and so is a Rebbe and he has two chassidim, you will think less of him than a Rebbe who has a thousand, because the fact that a thousand Torah true yidden have chosen him to inspire and guide their Avodas Hashem gives him more credence.

And lastly by learning their Torah we see what kind of person or Torah great they were. Like the Or Hachaim for example

And like we both said how he is seen by other Torah leaders of his time

Syag I realise I wasnt clear hence the confusion is my fault. Will explain after shabbos iyh. Will get to follow up after a well. I’m happy i can have an honest discussion with fellow frum yidden. Good Shabbos to all!!

Np disregard my last sentence. Agreed that was an urgent focus in the FRs time, and by rereading your post I realized that the last sentence doesn’t apply

Syag please do. Id love to see that

Rso neville, did you still want a post with further sources regarding who moshiach can come from? Because it looks like this long detour on the thread is coming to an end and I’m only interested in writing it up if you’re interested in seeing it. Or is the reference to R Aharon Soloveitchiks letter enough?

Coffee addict
“Lubavitcher is the only “Torah movement “?”

No not at all. Lubavitch was the only Torah outreach movement. (Not anymore today bh)

Iitft
“Tall statement
Although they considered him talented and of the potential”

Have you looked into it that you confidently make that statement? Because from what I’ve seen its not as you describe. And funny how you just state that as if it’s fact. There is a Sefer bsod siach that documents the quotes etc.

Neville:
“CS: Don’t assume you’re being singled out for moderation. The mods came down hard on litvishchossid in the past for going too far in his critiques, and they just mod’d out one of my posts that was probably too anti-Chabad (I suspected it would be deleted and I bare no ill will against the mods for this). ???

Two points that I do think they’ll allow through: 1 this thread should/will probably be closed soon. 2, CS and Sechel cannot back peddle now. As Syag and others pointed out, you guys confirmed beyond all doubt that the stuff TT is saying is regularly said in Chabad circles. I recommend people keep this thread handy for references to their true colors for the future when CS tries to start new “kind-spirited, civilized” discussions assuming they’re going to allow them to keep doing this.”

Firstly, I respect the mods. And I thank them now and then. I think they do a great job. (Although still looking forward to seeing those posts ;)). Secondly your post wasnt as bad as you portrayed it. Thirdly allow me to remind you once again that I started this discussion with zero intention of mentioning the Rebbe and other gedolim etc. Just wanted to discuss how the world is getting to a state of Geula. It was you and rso with your constant nudging and don’t skirt the topic posts that got us here. If you want an answer you’ll get a full one. Lol I think your takeaway for future reference souls be don’t ask a question or demand an answer if you don’t really want it.

Shluchim post 2:

Now, the reason why shluchim are so successful in mekareving others is not because they are such great PR people that they manage to package Yiddishkeit better than non Torah movements. In fact the early shluchim in some cases didn’t even know the language, much less culture, of the countries they arrived to.

The simple reason why the Rebbe was able to make an incredible transformation, and today, Chabad in many cases speaks to the media in behalf of the local Jews instead of non Torah movements, and Reform temples are closing down as Chabad expands in the same neighborhoods etc which is really crazy if you think about it, is purely because Yiddishkeit resonates. Doing a mitzvah resonates with the Neshama. That’s what brings them. Not the fancy thrills. They have more of that at their not frum jcc.

But no shliach tries to mekarev people by forcing them, (telling them they’ll go to gehennom etc.) They just provide the opportunities to connect to Hashem through doing Torah and mitzvos with joy, and it resonates deep within.

Same with the shluchim (not necessarily called by that title, in fact in many cases their institutions are not even called Chabad or lubavitch because theyre not pushing becoming Chabad, they’re their to teach chassidus) who go to frum areas.

There’s no force (if not you won’t be ready for moshiach etc) used to get people to learn Chassidus. They simply offer the opportunity, and the neshama of Torah resonates within the neshama of the yid.

Laskern:
“CS, Define to me what Chasiddus means? The chazal say איזהו חסיד המתחסד עם קונו who is a chosid who does right with his Creator, One who does לפנים משורת הדין one who does extra. King David says שמרה נפשי כי חסיד אני a chosid needs extra protection because he does more than required, so the border line becomes hazy and unclear. Also, כל הגדול מחבירו יצרו גדול ממנו the tzadik has a greater yetzer hara because as we mentioned he has a higher neshomo. Look at the mesilas yeshorim on shaar hachasidim.”

You mean chossid or chassidus? You are correct that the correct usage of the term chossid would be akin to the use of tzadik gamur, see Tanya perek 10.

However I meant it colloquially as it is used within Chabad in two ways. One is more like talmid, as in chossid of the Rebbe. But it also means someone who constantly strives to work on himself in Avodas Hashem. Not every lubavitcher would be called a chossid. A chossid we call someone who we respect for constantly working and growing etc or someone who has attained significant levels in Avodas Hashem.

Chassidus is what the Rebbeim taught (and some Rebbeim outside lubavitch as well as has been noted) based on pnimius HaTorah. That’s the short of it. For a longer definition of what Chassidus is let me know if you want me to expound.

Rso regarding ahavas yisrael it means two things and does not mean one thing:

It does mean
1) Loving and caring for every Jew unconditionally in thought speech and action and without an agenda or expecting something back (hosting someone not because you want to make them frum necessarily or any other agenda but simply because they’re Jewish)

2) it means caring for their best (you don’t encourage someone to take physical or spiritual poison out of love, you encourage them to be healthy.)

It does NOT mean you agree with everything they say or even hold back from denouncing their positions if you have a solid base and reason to do so

Np
“Since we regular people have no way of knowing who can actually do this I don’t see how this can be a criteria.”

Like the Rambam I posted – those who are trusted as tzaddikim by us (by noting their behaviour etc) can be trusted to make these decisions as well.

Np:

“You know that it is not unique to Tzaddikim from the Parsha in Chumash re: Navi Sheker. The point is that EVEN a navi sheker can affect miracles and know hidden things. One does not have to intentionally seek to use the s”a, one can be misled (and himself not even realize it). Now, I’m NOT saying that the last Lubavitcher Rebbe was misled in this way. What I am saying is that since such abilities are not unique to Tzadikim they cannot be used as a criteria.

The above quote from the first Lubavitcher Rebbe does not contradict this at all. The fact that Hashem increases emuna in this world by revealing His abilities through the tzadikim and the miracles they do has nothing to do with what criteria ought to be used for accepting them as Tzadikim in the first place.”

Np by your reasoning, Eliyahu hanavi and har hacarmel would have never happened. We have a clear mitzva of listening to our chachamim which was applied then (source Rambam Sefer hamitzvos:)

If someone is known to you to be a tzadik, then you follow everything he says, EVEN IF he tells you to temporarily stop doing a mitzvah.

The only exception to this rule is if he tells you a mitzvah is permanently cancelled or if he tells you to serve another god cvs. But these are exceptions to the rule. The rule is as above.

You’re right Its my fault. I should have waited to see if they were approved before the follow up ones. Ill.keep in mind next time

I see three of my posts entitled shluchim which addressed concerns of people here, and which I spent a while writing up etc have not been put through. I’m all for honest discussion if it’s honest. If some of my posts are not allowed through while others are in response to peoples requests, then it is impossible to have a fair open conversation as we have been on this thread, so I guess I won’t writeup any more responses until they are allowed through. Generally though I am impressed with the integrity here, of allowing all sides free reign to actually discuss the topics, and that’s why I submitted the coverting posts which should have been follow up, before waiting to see if the shluchim posts were allowed through. I hope this honesty continues

Approving your posts is not about having honest discussion. Not everything that is sent can be approved. Period. The fact that we take excessive amounts of time to sift through them, editing if possible instead of outright deleting should be something you are thankful for, not accusing. This particular “set” of posts is only being held back in it’s entirety due to consideration on our part for your time. We can easily hold back post 1 and send thru post 3 but have decided to see if they could remain in order. Your indignance is out of place.

To TT:

Let me clarify something. I admire your insistence in being who you are, no two faced etc as a pnimi should. However I strongly disagree with what you say, and this is NOT because of a lack of political correctness (btw you have still not given me one example of where I perverted or twisted or misrepresented the Rebbe), it is because what is inside you and therefore what you are expressing- are wrong.

To explain:
You brought me a Sheine maase which, while not being politically correct, emphasises the teirkeit of Chassidus.

Now I have a (more well known) maase for you:

As children, the Raza was shorter than his younger brother the future Rebbe Rashab. Once he got annoyed, and pushed his younger brother into a pit. He then stood over the pit proudly pronouncing himself taller. The Rebbe Maharash, his father, called him in and proceeded to tell him that he could have made himself taller by standing on a chair. There is no need to push others down to promote yourself and it is not a good thing…

Now, I have learned Tanya, some of it Baal peh. In perek 12 if I’m not mistaken, on the last page, the Alter Rebbe tells us that if a bad thought enters your mind about another yid, even if you have a right to be upset (like Yosef with his brothers) you must immediately push it away bshtei yodayim and not dwell.on it as dwelling on it is an aveira.

I strive to live this way myself, as a chossid and turn negative thoughts about others into positivity by focusing on the good in them. Now of course if I think this way, kal vchomer my speech in general reflects that. Don’t get me wrong. I slip up sometimes and am not yet a beinoni. But I try. And my friends do the same.

Now do I know about the individuals you mention? Of course. Actually, regarding Rav shach, all I knew was that the Rebbe strongly disagreed with his words on abc. I didn’t know more until I came to this forum and heard people quoting different things in his name. I didn’t go asking all my lubavitch friends to fill me in as I didn’t want to delve in mud. I looked up a non partial factual covering of the story with no shmutz of epithets etc mixed in, just to educate myself on the topic.

The other individual came up when I learned about the history of tomchei tmimim in ww2. Other than that, I don’t think about either of them and I definitely don’t talk about them. This is the way of the Rebbe.

To be continued.

Rso

“Please supply a source. And if you manage to do that please explain how you can then say that just as Rashbi was an exception so is someone else who I choose.

That’s like saying that since Chazal explained that cooking on Shabbos is forbidden I extend that and say that cooling things down is also forbidden.”

I think you’re misunderstanding the idea especially by the example you cite. But al rishon rishon: regarding Rashbi it is written that he was so beyond his colleagues that they couldn’t understand the extent of his greatness, they couldn’t even relate to him at all. Classical source. Probably gemara. Don’t remember offhand sorry. Maybe someone else would.

Here’s one i do know offhand: Regarding the Rambam it is written “MiMoshe ad Moshe lo kam kMoshe”. Hey. How can you say that if yeridas hadoros is a halacha or an ironclad rule?

Well it obviously isn’t. It’s not ideal and not something we strive to do like halacha (as in your example of hilchos shabbos). Rather it is a statement of observation of fact.

Fact: the term Gaon today and Gaon in the Gra / Alter Rebbe’s times mean completely different things due to yeridas hadoros.

But no one told each generation to lower their standard of learning and greatness. We strive to be the best we can. Just in an overall generational sense, each generation is lower.

“Converting” 2 (final):

Now I just want to reemphasize what I mean and what I don’t mean with the above post.

Am Yisrael is one body and we need every limb or kreiz to be whole just as you need every limb for the entire body to be complete. Back in the day every shevet had their own nusach in davening. Today we need the balance of the frum zionists and the anti zionists. The Kollel learners and the shluchim. Litvaks and chassidim. Askenazim and sefardim. Am Yisrael is complete precisely with diversity and that is its beauty – shivim panim la Torah, and my previous post in no way negates that.

In fact within Chabad you have this diversity represented as well – you have sefardi Chabad women who wear tichels (and as long as they completely cover all hair, everyone applauds them for it. That’s their shitta and chumra.) You have Chabad sefardim who eat rice on pesach, and the askenazim who don’t. You have chassidim who have joined from other kreizin who keep their levush and long peyos with the Rebbe’s explicit encouragement. Etc.

So here’s what it boils down to: if it’s a specific horaah from the Rebbe that can only add and not contradict other minhagim or chumros, we can and do encourage it. Like saying chitas (which there are many stories of people who’ve had yeshuos from), joining the learning Rambam campaign (so all of klal Yisrael, men women and children, can unite through learning whichever track best suits them on the same Torah topic), the 12 pesukim etc.

If it’s something that can take away from other minhagim or chumros, even if by us it is a Chumra (like sheitel, no rice on pesach, peyos length etc.) then we say go by your minhagim and don’t drop them just because lubavitch does different.

To conclude: when moshiach comes, and techias hameisim happens, there will be the Avos, Moshe Rabbeinu himself and all the Tannaim, Amoraim and tzaddikim from all the generations. They will not be held in any less regard just because well unite under moshiach. They will still teach Torah and give guidance etc. Just they themselves will learn from moshiach because he will be the greatest of all. May it happen asap. Amen.

Syag his way of writing and expressions (I mean the Yiddish etc not the content) are hard to fake…. That’s what makes us think he’s lubavitcher

But i don’t agree with his ways at all. Am I a proud chossid? Certainly. But to me being a chossid means working on myself and trying to emulate the Rebbe’s ways, not using admiration for the Rebbe as a way to bash others.