CS

Sam
“I think that all the upheavals in the world – both Jewish and secular – is to bring about the Gemara “ma’amid aleihem melch kosho keHaman” so that EVERYONE should beg for the Geulah! Things are going from bad to worse. Out in the general word, fighting within nations, internal unrest in the biggest and strongest dictatorships; here in the US, we have natural disasters, one after another – droughts, fires, and floods, not to say anything about our refugee crisis, AND the rising Antisemitism.
Hashem is shaking the world, so we should wake up and acknowledge that He is the ONLY ONE who can take us out of this bitter Galus.”

Exactly! The coming of moshiach and how exactly the process unfolds depends on us! It can be pleasant or scary. That’s why I strongly believe in being proactive and encouraging more yidden to learn Torah, do mitzvos, grow constantly myself, and daven for the Geula for the right reasons. I mean if we’re gonna have it anyway and gonna ask for it anyway why wait until we need to for not positive reasons? Let’s daven for the right reasons!

DY obviously I disagree with your comment, but I appreciate it nonetheless (if that makes sense)

If you really want to know numbers there’s a very simple way to do it. Obviously people tend to hang out with friends they have more in common with hashkafa wise, call that normal, call more extreme, and less modern or a similar term, say left wing. I think im mainstream, sechel seems to think he is. Very simple. Go through the Yeshivos in USA or whatever given country you know. See how many are “anti” (don’t like the term, but for lack of better), how many mainstream, how many right wing meshichist as in yechi yarmulkes and yellow flags. There you have your numbers…

Thanks uncle ben

YR: you seem to have come across a few fiery lubavitchers who were not educated enough to answer some basic questions (or just got fed up with being baited) or lacked any education of what goes on outside Chabad. I do try to learn allot (relatively speaking) and understand what I am learning, and have come here to understand and be understood. I hope you do see that.

YR

If I look up where the newspaper clipping from 1940 showing the banner of the Satmar chassidim greeting their Rebbe with the title moshiach on it, can be accessed, will you be happy? Aside from the breslovers – that you do admit.

Np:
That’s quite a condescending statement. I find it personally offensive and I’m sure other posters on this thread do as well.

To clarify (cuz you probably assumed I’m talking about hisnagdus to the idea of the Rebbe being moshiach) I meant hisnagdus to lubavitch in general.

If you understood what I meant and still find it condescending please explain why. You’ve been pretty good at that

NCB
“How is this not getting through to you? You really expect us to believe you met significant amounts of Satmars and none of them learned Divrei Yoel? I might believe that you THINK that, but I don’t believe it’s actually true.”

You forget im a woman. Sure the men may learn or not, I don’t know, but the women have no clue about their own chassidus, what R Yoel or the Noam Elimelech say, and don’t just blame that on their shitta not to learn inside texts. The Rebbe’s mother, Rebbetzin Chana, never went to school but she knew allot from hearing what was spoken about at home (her father was a Rav and she constantly heard shaalos etc.)

“As far as “viewing their Rebbe like you do,” yeah… as we’ve said, the rest of the frum velt poskens that the way you view your Rebbe is kefira, so you’ll have trouble finding that. Were you under the impression that all Chassidim believe their Rebbe to be moshiach?”

Firstly I wasn’t necessarily referring to the moshiach bit but simply the esteem due a tzadik. But happens to be in 1940 the Satmar had no problem welcoming their Rebbe with the title of moshiach. It used to be much more common. And in fact, the chassidish people I spoke to told me outright that they used to think of their Rebbeim as tzaddikim, but not today although they respect them as talmidei chachamim.

Me: “Here you find many regular yidden whose “hisnagdus” is mostly due to ignorance (of classic sources on moshiach and Geula, of the Halachos on how to treat a Rebbe etc etc)”

You “Did you think this was a private message to TT that the rest of us couldn’t see? Or did you just think we would be totally fine with your assertion that we’re totally ignorant of the halachah and need Chabad to educate us? Are we on crazy pills or something? The world is not a secular college campus! There are frum people that know stuff.”

Well the two examples I gave in my comment came from real things on this thread and the first (if you really want me to I can spell it out.) I wish people were more educated on what Geula and moshiach is or isn’t, what Chabad mean when they say x or y, etc. It would lead to allot more mutual understanding (even if lack of agreement) instead of misunderstandings and outright ignorance.

And by fully I mean properly with sources and actual content, not blasting people for responding to your incendiary statements

To quote sh: “Ezra HaKoifer? That’s a new one, I haven’t even heard of that before. Who is Ezra HaKoifer? Rabbi Shochat?”

TT:

Me either. Nor do I care. We don’t know why we didn’t yet merit to see the Geula etc. Gimmel tammuz took lubavitch by shock. But I would think a chossids response is introspection and figuring out where we could do better, not blaming it on others.

YR
“Just one – one clear cut Kol Koreh that the rebbe is not moshiach, and chabad will have been integrated back to the mainstream.”

Right. And that’s exactly why a certain person decided were all kofrim BEFORE gimmel tammuz (for unknown reasons, his own followers were left scratching their heads)… We were never mainstream since the Alter Rebbe and we never will be. Once we start apologise for being different in one way, we will quickly be expected to denounce and apologise for other unique things that set our derech apart. Kind of like classic anti semitism if you think about it. They want Jews to apologise for capitalism and fire Marxism. Lubavitchers should apologise for saying the Rebbe is moshiach before gimmel tammuz and after, for treating our Rebbe with too much respect and for having no respect for Torah. Etc etc. We’re not stupid and we’re not going to apologise. If you don’t understand something we can explain so it won’t be only inside knowledge (ok not everyone is willing to do that). But we’re not going to stop being proud of who we are and always have been.

Oh yeah rso I forgot to mention my chassidish classmates and neighbours.

Yeshivishrockstar thanks for the response. So you told us more clues about him. How did that come up in the conversation (you say you were bored. OK so what did you say? Did he explain his comment etc)

YR sechel and his circle of friends dont use iggros. I suppose he’ll comment further as to believing them. As for me iggros stories play a big role in my personal life (in addition to talking to my personal Rav, Mashpia etc.) and have been proven right in my decision again and again in a personal basis along with other ways the Rebbe has gotten back to me. That’s a whole different topic though. You want to go there? One of my favourites as my life is currently unfolding although would be hard to share my own stories without giving away too much personal info. I suppose I can try if you’re interested. Obviously as I have my own personal journey with connecting to the Rebbe via the iggros I would tend to believe other iggros stories as well. Fabricated stories tend to fall apart pretty quickly.

Now I’m sure sechel will tell you and I can tell you that there is no need to use the iggros and various chassidim connect to the Rebbe and ask for the Rebbe’s guidance in their Avodas Hashem and charting their life path, in other
ways (such as speaking to a Mashpia and allowing the Rebbe’s guidance to come through them, writing letters to the Ohel and seeing how the situation resolves / in some cases other interesting occurrences with Rebbe videos seen soon afterwards (had some of those as well) etc.) I can also explain why personally I do use them.

Joseph yes I guess so. Anyhow I was looking forward to getting acquainted with all the leaders in klal Yisrael today….oh well.

Chagas Rebbeim /,chassidim is the title given to non Chabad chassidim, as they focus more on the darchei hachassidus and the emotions of Emunas tzaddikim ahavas Hashem etc. Hence the term Chagas which stands for chessed gevura tiferes as opposed to Chabad which stands for chochma bina Daas

Rso:
Me: “in normal situations we ask what the halacha is and don’t rely on how neshama deep it is. But it can definitely add. And in rare cases even be relied upon (such as pinchas, Queen Esther etc)”

Rso “1. You are neither of those two tzaddikei olam, and you won’t deny that, so your proof is non-existent.”

No but since their story is part of Torah there are lessons to be learnt on our level (the Rebbe discusses one with this idea of the essence of the neshama etc.)

“2. Just as you think it “adds”, reform and conservative also claim it adds. But it doesn’t. It detracts.”

I find this ironic, as you said earlier that this is something that historically the Chabad teased the chagas chassidim about. And you are Chagas yourself. Yeah we used to not be into miracles. But with yeridas hadoros, we find today that just talk of the Rebbe’s Torah and Avodas Hashem doesn’t excite people as much as when accompanied by the miracle stories, although past generations of lubavitchers wouldn’t bother to talk about “the miracles rolling about under the table.”

Syag: id have to agree with you on this one. (Except I don’t
know what he’s talking about. My example wasnt based on things I’ve seen in lubavitch texts but things I’ve seen on this forum. And even that is not what the shliach meant if it happened at all.)

Samthenylic

Again I admit ignorance on the topic but find it hard to believe whole communities don’t say tachanun due to simple laziness. Or not say YK katan monthly for the same reason. There must be more to the story here.

TT that story is justification but not a lchatchila. As
chassidim we should strive to have our behaviour reflect our Rebbe so the Rebbe can say Riu gidulim shegidalti.

I think TT is tois equivalent. Where’s toi gone? They can have fun together.