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Oomis,
I agree that you don’t have to avoid a relative’s house because of an unfiltered computer, but don’t let the kids out of your sight.
I would say the same about non-kosher food with little kids: go, but don’t let them out of your sight!
Every (or almost every) parent think the same way about their kids, that they would never do such a thing. Some of them are right (you very well may be one of them) but some are wrong.
We’re not merely talking about a value system (although that’s obviously the most important thing), we’re also talking about the yetzer hora.
Browsing history, by the way, is very easy to manipulate, and doesn’t even need to be done. Have you ever heard of private browsing?
Filters will filter out alot more than just Schumtz.
That depends on the filter and the settings.
You lock your door, even though it takes longer to get in the house.
According to Pesach Kron, this website (YWN) needs a Filter and is no better than Schmutz
Do you agree with this statement?
I didn’t hear every drasha of his, so I can’t disagree that he said it.
In a nutshell, if they’re not frum, they’re not family.
Anyone I know who have non frum family were told by their roshei yeshiva and rebbeim to keep in touch, to whatever extent they are able to keep their children away from negative influences. In some cases, based on the sensitivity of the family, they are able to visit, and in some are able only to host. But to dismiss outright as a rule is unacceptable.
Whenever I see some frum kids go to relatives who have a TV in the house, The TV is the first thing that goes on. They go to the TV and stay there until they leave to go home
Those parents need to be more responsible.
Meaning…?
I’m wondering if everyone would keep to their positions. For example, you would probably say the same thing as you said regarding food, to visit but maintain vigilance that your kids are not exposed to material which doesn’t meet your standards.
Would those who said that unless there’s only kosher food available don’t visit, also say unless there’s only kosher entertainment available not to visit? More specifically, if there was an unfiltered internet connection or TV, would they insist that they be disabled, and otherwise not visit?
he certainly does not drink from the Kos shel Eliyahu Hanavi
The OP didn’t mention that.
You are driving down the highway and there is a big billboard right in front of you with Shmutz, There is no way to avoid looking at it as you cannot take you eyes off the road.
Billboards are not in the middle of the road, they’re off to the side.
I was at the asifa too and I DEFINATLY heard the Skullner Rav and the Rav From Belgium (Diznger ??…Sorry I forgot his name) condem the internet as the Tumah of Egypt and the Chochma of Behamois
… and therefore, since you think they’re too fanatical, we should not object to shmutz?
Hmm…
I wonder how this discussion would go if the subject were traife media instead of traife food.
Thems the perks.
Yep.
Yes its worse to be overweight or be a smoker, those things can kill you physically
I guess spiritual destruction doesn’t bother you. What a shame.
ZD,
Do you feel that being overweight or smoking is worse than viewing highly inappropriate material on the web (or anywhere else)?
ZD,
You haven’t addressed the statistics I showed you that many people are addicted to shmutz sites.
And although I didn’t hear R’ Krohn’s speech, there are certainly websites which are not referred to as “adult”, yet certainly are very problematic, YouTube is one of them, and social networking, which might have the #1 ratings, is very dangerous and was rightfully assailed.
ZD,
According to statistics which I read, 10% of the adult population in the US is addicted to shmutz, and double that number admit that they regularly visit those sites. The actual number (considering the fact that many won’t admit it) is unknown.
Sorry it took so long to get the stats; my filter blocks out a certain important keyword from my search.
And it’s worth it.
jbaldy22,
Please understand that my cynical tone was not directed at you, but at a poster who is in denial that there is an issue, as a pattern of railing against anything associated with chareidim.
I received an email from BHI, which is an organization led by R’Chaim Kohn Shlit”a, with a link to the brochure, so I am working under the impression that distributing this is a good thing.
Rav Reisman Shlit”a, in his pre Shavuos drasha, employed “scare tactics”. Many of the stories I pasted were from an article with Rav Viener Shlita”s byline.
I have no reason to think “scare tactics” won’t possibly save some families.
That’s even if you are correct that R’ Mattisyahu decided that Citi Field wasn’t the time and place for it.
jbaldy22,
Your position and zahavasdad’s position are not the same.
I am not claiming, nor did ever claim, that the problem begins and ends with the internet (for the umpteenth time). Talk about a straw man.
I don’t know why the brochure wasn’t given out by the asifa, I assume that you do, so please inform.
In terms of my own posts,
I often see them before others are approved.
In facts it was said here 10’s of marriages were destroyed by the internet,
Only 10’s? We all wish that were true.
I know ALOT more people who gets their parnossah
Internet for business use is not assur. Why do you keep implying that anyone assered it for parnassah, when that is not true?
Did the internet cause people to go OTD (This has been happening forever ever hear of the Haskala)
Yes, and yes.
Did the internet cause people to have financial troubles because they are in Kollel
There’s no reason for you to bring your anti-kollel bias into this discussion.
Did the interent cause the Shidduch crisis
Not as the term “shidduch crisis” is commonly used.
Did the internet cause people to Bittul Torah
Big time.
Did the Interent cause the abuse crisis
Probably not. Although it’s certainly possible that some abusers got ideas from the internet.
You make it seem as if the gedolim think that everything was perfect in the world until the internet came along. You know that’s not true, but I don’t understand why you can’t recognize that it has caused huge problems and that we must learn how to use it more responsibly.
I gave you the facts that the top 15 websites were not schmutz
That’s a very misleading fact. It says nothing about how much time is spent on shmutz, of which there are far more sites. It also doesn’t account for how much damage is caused by even a “small” amount of time spent on shmutz.
You should argue, according to your faulty logic, that abuse is not a big issue because most abusers have at least 15 activities which they do more often than abuse children.
People do not spend much time on shmutz websites, they spend alot more on sites like YWN
YWN isn’t even in the top 20.
In most of these cases there would likely be a problem with or without the internet.
Again, you made that up. You don’t see the problems (you’re not a rov or marriage counselor), so you’re projecting your wishful thinking on the facts.
I said people wish it would be the cause, because then it would be easier to ignore other problems in society such as our educational system amongst other things.</em.
Nobody is ignoring other problems. You just “wish” they were.
however the exaggerations such as the ones contained in the stories you have posted have to stop.
Actually, there are worse stories which didn’t make the brochure.
Stop underestimating the extent of the problem. Many, many families have been destroyed, and as long as people such as you understate the problem, it will be that much more difficult to help people.
And Yes I do think the “Schmutz” Problem is GREATLY exxaggerated.
How on earth would you know? You don’t. You’re just conjecturing that, because you don’t want anyone telling you what to do or not to do.
The rabbonim who deal with broken families and neshamos know that it’a a huge problem.
if you are going to talk to a member of the opposite gender online, you can just as easily get in your car and drive to a place where you can talk to a member of the opposite gender
Absolutely NOT TRUE.
It’s much easier online, and that’s the danger.
GAW,
In context, “other possibilities” that I referred to were the possible causes of the spiritual decline of these Yidden, not possibilities of how to view shmutz.
But to respond to your comment, you’re right. If someone wants to be bad, he can be bad. The point of all the talk of filters and such is for people who want to be good.
i think this is a common misconception that the internet and otd crises are interrelated – this is very much wishful thinking.
No one “wishes” it, and no one is claiming it’s the only or even primary cause. But to deny that it has caused major problems is to blind ourselves.
GAW,
Sorry, I don’t understand your response to my comment. Could you please explain?
In Almost all these stories you can subsitute ANY modern technilogical invention.
Except that the destruction of Jewish families and sullying of Jewish neshomos which we see today en masse wasn’t taking place before widespread internet access.
Add up all the time you “wasted” driving somewhere and then learn a “driving Mesechta”
You make it sound like that’s a bad idea. It’s actually a wonderful idea.
Considering I make my parnassah from this way
So, if you ran a gambling website, would that mean we shouldn’t convince people not to gamble online?
ZD,
Nowhere did she say she went to bad websites
It’s clear that they did from this quote:
This story says the problem was computers
It does suggest it, but even if in that particular case it wasn’t, in many others it is.
It is silly to ignore the very real message because there are other possibilities.
ZD,
I am not saying, nor is anyone that I know of, that everything on the internet, or on YouTube, for that matter, is treif. The problem is that a lot is treif, and the yetzer hora is ever present.
There’s also lots of time wasted here.
I don’t have access to YouTube, but I’ve seen the Munkacher Rebbe’s Shabbos speech.
i also think that this booklet makes lots of assertions which are simply not true
That’s a very broad, unsubstantiated statement. You’d have to be more specific to have that viewpoint taken seriously.
And exactly how did he “Waste his Time” He learned a valuable skill. You dont learn these things overnight, it takes time
I didn’t really get the point of that either.
These brochures assume that everyone on the web is using Scmhutz
Not everyone, but a lot of people.
Actually the top 10 website (Some are Social Media sites) arent Shmutz at all
That doesn’t mean that the top activity on the net isn’t shmutz related, because there are so many thousands of shmutz sites.
Also, some of the sites you mentioned are far from “kosher”.
The Terrible Virus
But wait, is it really just 1%? Or are we lulling ourselves into a false sense of security? According to those who work with troubled youths, the rate is far higher.
So say also those who deal with shalom bayis issues. And the dayanim who serve on the Bais Din for gittin. And the rabbonim who are involved in all of these cases and more. It becomes apparent that the true toll of internet casualties is higher probably shockingly higher, than any of us can imagine. What we have seen and heard is only the tip of the iceberg.
We must realize that to be honest with ourselves we cannot count only those who have openly dropped their former lifestyle as a result of internet exposure. There are many who continue to go through their daily lives as before, continue to go through the motions of maintaining the Torah observant way of life, yet inside they have rotted completely.
How many boys continue to attend yeshiva, how many girls continue to attend Bais Yaakov, yet their hearts and minds are plugged up by what they have learned elsewhere. The delicacies they are served by their rabbeim and moros cannot compete with the junk food and pork they gorge in secrecy. The young man who sits next to you in shul with tallis and tefillin may feel completely estranged from his own actions as a result of tasting from the illicit waters. These people are going through the motions, while on the inside they have hardened into something not Jewish.
If only we could have all internet users fill out a secret poll about how many times they chanced upon disgusting photos, lashon hara, immoral movies and clips, we would learn very quickly just how safe internet use really is. Better yet: How many frum internet users would willingly submit to having the log of all the websites they visited in the past 12 months publicized for the entire world to see?
Everyone knows that it is dangerous to log onto the internet without any antivirus protection. There are literally thousands of worms, viruses, Trojan horses and other forms of spyware that are out to get you. They steal your personal information, destroy your computer and expose you to criminals who are there to hurt you and take advantage of you. Does exposing yourself to even worse spiritual dangers deserve any less concern?
OK, just make sure you give it back when you’re finished. 🙂
I heard the following in the name of Rav Steinwurtzel, ZT”L. You’ll have to embellish it and apply it to the chosson and kallah according to their ma’alos.
Why is the bracha of “yotzer ha’adam” only said at sheva brachos? You would think that thanking Hashem for our creation would be said at least daily!
The Gemara in Eruvin (13b)says “???? ?????: ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????? – Nimnu v’gamru: noach lo l’adam shelo yoser mishenivra” – it would have been more comfortable for us to not have been created. Why? The Maharsh”a says that because there are more negative commandments (365) than positive commandmets (248), we havea bigger chance of failure than success, so we would have preffered not to have been created.
However, this does not apply if we transform our mundane activities into acts of avodas Hashem. Even the simple act of eating can be a z’chus ifdone to strengthen ourselves to daven learn, perform acts of kindness, and other mitzvos.
At sheva bracos, when we recite the bracha of “Shehakol bara lichvodo” and recognize that ultimatly, EVERYTHING was created for Hashem’s honor, we are not limited to 248 mitzvos, we have more oppurtunities for good than bad, and can appreciate Hashem’s chessed in creating us, and recite the bracha “yotzer ha’adam”.
The mod let the link the second time through. It’s not in your first post -that’s why “I” Missed it.
Go back to that post:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/infertility-treatments-tzedaka/page/2,
and click on the words this article, footnote 6..
Sorry, I guess I should have put arrows to make it more clear.
but I understand your mistake now
You obviously don’t, if you still think it’s a mistake. 🙂
He didn’t mention the Gr’a argues on the whole Seif.
Good for him, because the Gr”a does not argue on the priority of Torah, only beis haknesses. I did see it myself, I’m not relying on that article, but he has some nice mareh m’komos, so I linked it.
According to you, Health, the author didn’t merely commit an error of omission, he switched the whole order around! You are entitled to argue if you want (in the realm of discussion; for halacha l’maaseh ask your rov), but I don’t understand how you can say he did a good job if you think he reversed the order of priority.
Pcoz,
What edition do you have, and who wrote the hagaos?
You have not provided a source.
I guess you missed it. It was embedded in my post, in the words this article, footnote 6. I’ll post it again. Moderator, can you kindly allow it again? Thanks.
http://www.dinonline.org/2010/08/12/laws-of-tzedakah-part-ii-who-to-give-first/
All-In-One
From the perspective of a Jew who knows that his purpose in the world is to serve his Creator, this means that the internet is also a tool to provide access to ever type of vice to which a human may stoop. The internet provides an opening for each person to fall prey to his unique weaknesses.
Another person has a hot temper and is constantly getting into fights and disagreements with others. Words fly bitterly and it is only by a miracle that the fists do not join in. Now that person is introduced to the Word Wide Web. Instead of sleeping on the matter and cooling down by the following day, they can act immediately by sharing their anger with millions of others instantaneously. The flames of machlokes can be fanned like never before.
Because it is always accessible, 24/7, a person need not be entirely dissolute to be trapped. You can stand strong day after day and resist the temptation to sin. The internet is patient and will wait quietly to manipulate you in your moment of weakness.
Whereas in the past, weak individuals sinned in private, today they drag others along with them. The internet has raised the science of temptation to all new heights.
The Gr’a Offen Ort … is disputing the Mechaber about the priority of beis haknesses.
Poor Torah learners, children or adults, take precedence over anyone but relatives (poor relatives who are Torah learners would be the absolute priority*, aside from pikuach nefesh).
Children take precedence over adults because their Torah is b’li chet. Otherwise, there’s no difference relative to other tzeddakah needs.
Whether poor relatives take precedence over Torah learners seems to be a machlokes (check out the sources in the article which I linked to earlier) although the C.C. seems to give priority to krovim.
My point about chomesh was to demonstrate the primacy of supporting Torah learners. Although there is a chiyuv to give “tzeddakah” (to poor people), the bulk of one’s donations should be to support Torah.
* Exactly opposite Feif Un’s misinformed position.
Health,
To support Torah, you’re allowed to give more than a chomesh, which isn’t always the case for ordinary tzeddakah.
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=48041&st=&pgnum=208
I’m just wondering (once again) if helping couples have babies merits our giving Tzedaka monies.
And I’m telling you that it is a valid tzeddakah, and that to suggest otherwise, aside from being wrong l’halachah, is insensitive to those suffering through infertility.
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=48041&st=&pgnum=198
??? ?????? ???? ?????, ?????? ?????? ?????, ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ?? ???? ?????, ???? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ????. ??? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???(????? ??? ???): ???? ????? – ??? ????? ??????: ??? ????? ??? ?????, ??? ?????? ???? [?????, ????? ????? ????? ?????], ?????? ??? ????? ????? ????.
The only one that the Mechaber mentions is children learning. If you have a source stating that adult learning is more important than Tzedaka – please cite the source.
Ahavas Chessed, chapter 19.
Relatives do come first, though.
Which Gr’a? It would indeed be curious if the Chofetz Chaim paskened against the G’ra and Nosei Keilim.
the Frenchman Alfred Binet devised the first intelligence test
Now you’ve answered your question…
Men perform better on IQ tests because the IQ test was developed by a man!
APY,
“The term you use, “emotionally charged situation”,”
Is actually a term someone else used, which is why I commented on it, and also put it in parenthesis.
I’m not sure what your point is.
Are you saying that the emotions of the recipient are not a factor in tzeddakah allocation?
First of all -the Mechaber says to give to a Shul is more important than Tzedaka and giving money to a child to learn Torah or to a sick poor person is even more important.
I don’t understand how you counter the point that support for Torah comes before poor people with the fact that giving to a shul takes precedence over giving to poor people.
As to which takes precedence, adult Torah scholars or children’s Torah, it’s a machlokes, and it depends on multiple factors. See this article, footnote 6, for some sources.
Please inform if you know of anyone who argues on the general precedence of Torah support over most other forms of tzeddakah (more authoritative than some comment, probably taken out of context, from Rabbi Krohn).
Challenging Times
Hashem, in His infinite wisdom, saw fit to allow the internet to be introduced in our day and age. It is our weak generation, battered by the tests of so many centuries, that is being confronted with the nisayon of modern technology. Yet the Torah response is timeless. There is no question that unfiltered use of the internet is completely forbidden, no ifs, ands or buts.
Statistics show that a typical browser changes screens every two minutes. Links permit one to connect to new sites tens of times a minute. If one site does not catch you, the next one will. Surfing the web means dodging burning coals as they are falling from the sky like hail. What are the chances of avoiding burns? Of emerging alive?
If you have a single dollar to give to tzedaka, is “emotionally charged situation” one of the criteria mentioned in halacha in the list of priorities?
Actually, aside from pikuach nefesh, supporting Torah is a priority.
The term you use, “emotionally charged situation”, connotes a lack of real need, but the donor’s emotions have been stirred.
I am referring to the emotional needs of the recipient, which although I’m not (yet) fluent enough in hilchos tzeddakah to know how to incorporate into the prioritization of funds, should certainly play a role (based on the Gemara’s din of the chariot).