Forum Replies Created
Even In 1905 Jacobson v Mass he was not forced to vaccinate
Vaccine “mandates” that we are discussing aren’t literally forcing anyone to vaccinate.
As to whether the differences you mentioned are legally applicable, I guess the courts will decide, but the weight of legal opinion seems to be on the side of allowing vaccine mandates such as employment and admission being conditional on being vaccinated.
I used to beleive this pandemic was really deadly
You were right. And 650,000 deaths into it, it still is.
Government hypocrisy abounds, no question, but that doesn’t change our obligation to keep ourselves as safe as reasonably possible.
Aside for the fact that it’s unconstitutional
Nonsense. It’s always been the role of government to keep its citizens safe. Vaccine mandates in particular have been legal for over a century.
If vaccinated still need to wear a mask and can still transmit the virus to others and also get infected themselves, please explain how the vaccine is effective.
People who take the vaccine are less likely to get sick and die.
In my book, that means it’s effective.
Not perfect, effective.
Obviously it’s not about science it’s about slowly taking away people’s liberties
No, it’s about balance between health and utility. It’s not as easy to take away a necessity from someone as a luxury.
No and are you ok with car accidents, driving under influence, scammers, people dying from the flu or any other virus?
I’m in favor of taking common sense precautions against all of the above.September 27, 2021 1:45 am at 1:45 am in reply to: ATTENTION 1 out of 8 women had a miscarriage after taking the covid vaccine! #2010281
eric55, there are multiple vaccines from multiple companies and governments available. Do you have an explanation for why each of them is not to be trusted?
Because Bill Gates put tracking chips into all of them.
Also they havent proven that vaccinated “cannot” spread the virus
No, but they proved that they are less likely to spread the virus.
But how do the rules make any sense? You can ride the crowded subway in close proximity to others without a vaccine but you can’t sit at a restaurant?
You answered your own question two sentences later.
And Israel obviously is in the same situation since they keep talking about lockdowns again and again.
No, they are not in the same situation. And Bennett is saying no lockdowns.
You keep making ludicrous comments implying that the vaccines aren’t working but ignore the fact that it’s mostly the unvaccinated getting seriously ill and dying.
And the vaccinated wont be safe either they will be restricted until they get whatever updated booster shot required.
If a booster is deemed necessary, that’s fine.
This is why everyone should unite and boycott these restrictions because once it hits your ability to buy food and basic survival needs it will be too late.
How about get vaccinated? Much easier. And safer.
the big issue here is that they are restricting people from living their lives
As the saying goes, “Your right to swing your arms ends just where the other man’s nose begins.”
You agree they shoulnt be required to vaccinate but yet they are being forced to vaccinate that’s the whole issue here.
Um, no, you were saying nobody should be forced. While I don’t know that it’s legal to literally force anyone to vaccinate, I think it’s wrong for anyone (other than kids) who didn’t have Covid to not vaccinate, and I think an employer has a right to make it a condition of employment (assuming there’s physical proximity to other employees or to customers).
Certainly, healthcare workers, who have contact with the most vulnerable population, need to get vaccinated.
it’s over 99% survival rate for most of the population.
So you’re okay with one out of a hundred people dying, and many others who survive with permanent damage?
but even with the vaccines we are in the same situation
No we are not. The vaccinated are getting severely ill and dying at a much lower rate.
And with COVID as well 99% who had an infection were not reinfected
I’m not sure where those numbers come from and if they are outdated, but I know a lot of people who got Covid a second time.
None seriously ill b”H, which is why I don’t know if a vaccine is necessary for someone who had Covid (and I certainly don’t think it should be mandated), but those who advise to get vaccinated even for those who once had it have strong basis for that view.
That’s aside from the argument to get vaccinated to lessen the spread.
Trying to prove they’re not working because of how many shots are required is downright silly.
Of course they are working. The people dying from Covid are overwhelmingly the unvaccinated.
We also don’t know what the effects of Covid will be on survivors in 10-15 years from now, so the “we don’t know” argument is not at all convincing.
Israel is preparing for a potential 4th dose if deemed necessary, they aren’t “up to the 4th”. And if they were, so what?
No, Malone didn’t invent it. He’s bitter that he isn’t getting the credit he thinks he deserves.
They never said it was risky for kids, they were waiting for the studies.
Yes, it’s impossible to know for sure the long term effects. We do know what the long term term effects of Covid are, though. Once dead, always dead.
This may be true, but not fully established yet.
Pretty well established. Well enough that in Israel they have been accepting past infection as equivalent to vaccinated, and further studies have confirmed it.
Four shots in less than a year?
Um, no, only three for the most vulnerable. And that’s for the Phizer vaccine, I don’t think that’s applicable to the others. And yes, if that were deemed necessary and safer than not getting a booster, why should the fact that a series of shots was necessary mean it’s not effective?
The healthcare community denies Malone’s claim that he “invented” mRNA vaccines. He contributed to their development. And he’s still in the minority in his skepticism, and even he says some should take it.
If the vaccine was so effective we wouldn’t be up to 4 boosters by now. They even admitted that it isn’t as effective especially against variants.
I’m not sure why it’s so difficult to understand that something can be effective, but not last forever. Did you eat yesterday? Then why are you hungry today?
On the other hand if the natural antibodies weren’t enough to protect individuals, you would have seen a rise in cases to the likes of the beginning of the pandemic.
Yes, naturally immune, but also many vaccinated people.
For those who had Covid, whether by act of G-d or by negligence, it is not enough to rely on that alone to conclude that you are not in danger or not a danger to others.
The evidence shows that previous Covid infection offers more protection than vaccination. So unless you involve politics, there’s no reason to exclude previously infected people over vaccinated people.
but making it such that the woman herself appears to be shaitel-less, seems to involve several issues: maaris ayin
Rav Moshe holds there’s no maris ayin. The Maharil Diskin holds there is.
and the inability to distinguish one’s self as a married woman
While I agree that it’s a bad idea for this reason (Hamodia had a humorous fictional piece in the Succos Stories supplement about a married lady who was set up on a shidduch meeting by someone who thought she was single because of her lace shaitel), do you have a source which would make it actually assur?
and I’m sure there’s more.
Please share, because I haven’t yet heard a compelling reason to think it’s actually assur l’chol hadeios.
You should address your criticism of these Gedolei Poskim to them, rather than to the public.
It’s not a criticism of them, it’s a rebuttal to you.
Careful with “anyone”.
Vilna Gaon with his lifestyle would not get it. Rashbi would not have even noticed.
🙄September 23, 2021 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm in reply to: ATTENTION 1 out of 8 women had a miscarriage after taking the covid vaccine! #2009720
After it was analyzed by other scientists it was retracted because the conclusion was obviously inaccurate and blatantly false.
They redid the numbers and it was still in the expected range.
The authors reply: Sun appropriately raises questions about the proportion of women reporting spontaneous abortion in our recent article. We agree that the denominator used in that proportion — 827 completed pregnancies — is not an appropriate denominator for the calculation of a risk estimate or rate.
The number of spontaneous abortions (104) reflects data reported by the participants as of March 30, 2021, during telephone follow-up. In this preliminary report, follow-up information was missing for the majority of pregnancies in which exposure to vaccination occurred in early pregnancy. Among the 1224 women who had been vaccinated before conception or in the first trimester, follow-up through 20 weeks of gestation had been completed for only 204 pregnancies that were known to be ongoing and for 1 pregnancy that resulted in stillbirth. Among the pregnancies that had not yet reached 20 weeks of gestation, there were 10 pregnancies with other outcomes before 20 weeks of gestation, including 8 ectopic pregnancies and 2 induced abortions. For the other 905 pregnancies, follow-up had not occurred to establish whether these pregnancies were ongoing past 20 weeks of gestation. We have amended Table 4 in our earlier publication and have clarified the text.
Subsequently, we completed telephone follow-up for the 905 pregnancies and enrolled additional persons in the v-safe pregnancy registry. To determine the cumulative risk of spontaneous abortion from 6 to less than 20 weeks of gestation, we used life-table methods to perform an updated analysis, now reported in the Journal, involving 2456 women who received at least one dose of an mRNA Covid-19 vaccine before conception or before 20 weeks of gestation.1 The estimated risks (14.1% overall and 12.8% in age-standardized analyses) are consistent with the risks of spontaneous abortion reported in the general population.1
Dana M. Meaney-Delman, M.D.
Sascha R. Ellington, Ph.D.
Tom T. Shimabukuro, M.D.
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta, GA
This letter was published on September 8, 2021, at NEJM.org.
When girls are taught in BY schools that their worth is dependent on how unattractive they make themselves
They are not being taught that.
They are being taught to value their p’nimius, and to respect themselves.
Then they should have put out a kol korei that all nice shaitels from the last 20 years should be thrown out.September 23, 2021 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm in reply to: ATTENTION 1 out of 8 women had a miscarriage after taking the covid vaccine! #2009662
I don’t remember seeing an OP so thoroughly and blatantly debunked.
Any response from the OP?
How can our communities correct this untziusdik catastrophe?
Tell them to wear shaitels which cover their ankles.
So I’d like to hear who they are.
I have mentioned several.
However, lace wigs are so not corpse-like, I highly doubt he would call the long, flowing, lace wigs of today being “like a corpse”.
Again, he didn’t say anything about appearance. He said it has no נפש חיונית. Not that it doesn’t look like it has.
The shaitels in previous centuries and decades did not look real, everyone could tell they are shaitels until approximately 10-15 years ago,
The poskim who assered said they looked real.
So you agree that there’s nothing new in the last couple of years? But the poskim who are assering now didn’t asser 10-15 years ago!!
DaasYochid, I never said wigs, human or otherwise, are assur so I did not get involved in old machloikes.
You said, and I quote, “In addition, the original source in Gemara talks about peah nochri that women wore, however Jewish girls and women wore additional head coverings as well so we are not talking about women walking in the streets, and likely not in their homes either, with only peah nochri covering their hair. Peah nochri was used as WEAVE together with a woman’s own hair, NOT as WIGS to cover the entire head, to make thin hair look fuller.”
That is straight from the באר שבע, who assered פאה נכרית.
DY, do you imagine that the poskim you’re claiming would be mattir a shaitel where the length of the hair reach her ankles?
R Felder who assers lace shaitels says it’s not tznius to wear long shaitels where it’s not the norm, but it’s not a violation of kisui harosh. So there’s that.
R Oberlander from Monsey, although he does say there’s maris ayin (which R Moshe gives several reasons to be mattir) agrees it’s not actually erva and you can say a bracha in front of a woman wearing a lace shaitel.
R Yitzchak Berkowitz is on record as saying if the shaitels before the lace shaitels are ok, so are the lace ones. If the lace ones are assur, they should have assered shaitels a while ago.
Here’s a post of Joseph’s from 11 years ago (!) saying that “only recently” do shaitels look real.
I do agree with some of the points you are making. I think tznius has continued to be an increasing challenge for many, and the desire to have a head covering which is indistinguishable from natural hair is not a good thing.
I also agree that someone having been mattir fake looking wigs cannot be used to be prove that real looking wigs are muttar.
What I disagree with is the assertion that it is impossible to be mattir these.
First of all, many can tell the difference, so even if you hold that a real looking wig is assur, where do you draw the line? The previous shaitels also looked quite real. Every few years you hear new kol korehs that the shaitels are worse than previous ones (and it’s true, as they keep trying to make them look more real). But if you held the shaitels from 5 years ago were ok, or today’s non lace, then you are saying that very realistic is still not assur unless it’s 100% real looking. Well, these still aren’t. Many people say they can tell. So is the line 99%? 95%?
Secondly, as I have pointed out, some hold that even if a shaitel is 100% real looking, as long as her actual hair isn’t showing, it’s muttar. So no matter how much you say that these are more real looking, it won’t make it assur according to that opinion.
no contemporary poisek would matter lace wigs,
I’m not getting involved in the old machloikes.
The fact is the wigs of decades ago were very noticable that hair hair was not נפש חיונית
What the ישכיל עבדי is saying is that it has nothing to do with how it looks. So you can repeat your assertions that these look different than the older wigs, but you are missing the point of those who are mattir. They hold that as long as the actual hair is covered, it’s muttar even if it looks real.
A person can be completely untzniusdik even if technically any single aspect of their attire isn’t a direct written violation.
Okay, but you are saying they are technically assur.
And again, I don’t think you can compare uncovered hair with other aspects of tznius.
Philosopher, Yasher Koach. You’re able to express the point much better than myself.
True. You never would have thought to prove that lace shaitels are assur because a frum man was wearing a nose ring. 🙄
The fact is immodesty today is our of control. The length of hair worn by girls today, never mind married women with wigs, was inconvenienable just a few decades ago. I am shocked when I see so many frum women not wearing stockings and short skirts and flip flops…it’s so gross. My husband told me he saw a frum man wearing a nose ring, I was like ok, these will be the new male versions who go together with the frum women wearing no tights and flip flops. After all, there’s nothing in halacha that say a man can’t wear nose rings! Why even when they built the mishkan the men donated their nose rings…It’s a himmel geshrei how low we have fallen. Every coarse, low-class mode of dress is excused that “it’s ok according to halacha”. Lace wigs is just one more proof of the dive tznius has taken in many communities.
Okay. That has nothing to do with whether lace shaitels are assur.
In addition, the original source in Gemara talks about peah nochri that women wore, however Jewish girls and women wore additional head coverings as well so we are not talking about women walking in the streets, and likely not in their homes either, with only peah nochri covering their hair. Peah nochri was used as WEAVE together with a woman’s own hair, NOT as WIGS to cover the entire head, to make thin hair look fuller.
Now you are getting involved in the old machlokes acharonim. So you’re saying all shaitels are assur. Fine, if you want to be machmir. But the topic is lace shaitels.
but the ruling is on the hair that was sewn on the wigs that were out at the time of the ruling, not the wigs of today with their fitted caps and certainly not with the lace as the hair looks absolutely looks like it’s growing out of the scalp because then you defeated the point that “it is not attached to the head”.
It doesn’t matter what it looks like. It does not have נפש חיונית.
The לשון of the ישכיל עבדי:
ונראה בטעם הדבר, דהוא משום דקים להו לרבנן, דאין היצה”ר שולט אלא בדבר הדבוק בגוף האשה עצמה, היינו הדבר הדבוק בגוף הערוה עצמה, דאין שליטה להיצה”ר אלא בדבר שיש לו נפש חיונית, לא בדבר שאין לו נפש חיונית, ולכן בנתלש מגוף האשה, דניטל ממנו נפש החיונית, הרי פקע ממנו אותה הערוה שהיתה עליו בזמן שהיה דבוק בגוף האשה, דהרי הוא כפגר מת שאין להיצה”ר שליטה בו, ולכן התירו להסתכל בו, דכיון שאין להיצה”ר שליטה בו, הרי לא יבוא לידי הרהור
See שו”ת ישכיל עבדי ח”ז חאה”ע סי’ טז who explains that a פאה נכרית is okay according to the רמ”א, מג”א and לבוש, because it is no longer attached to the person and therefore the יצה”ר is not שולט, and that as long as it is customary to wear shaitels, there is no מראית עין.
So the “mares eyin” of years ago (which was in reality not mares eyin), is absolutely not relevent to the wigs of today.
Obviously today’s wigs are more realistic looking, but R’ Moshe addresses a wig which looks real so that people can’t tell.
Still, he holds it’s muttar; the fact that today’s look even more real in comparison doesn’t change the halacha.
Even though people in those days may have been fooled by those wigs, since we are used to more realistic looking wigs, they wouldn’t fool us because we are used to seeing more realistic looking wigs and our eyes are longer tricked.
The same thing will happen with these shaitels too; we will get used to them and they will no longer fool people I to thinking they’re real (many can already tell the difference) until the next innovation comes along and the poskim will undoubtedly have the same debate again, with the osrim saying that even if you held the lace are okay, theses new ones are definitely assur.