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Derech HaMelech: I agree with you 100%. Someone who has a parnassah has no need to learn any of these things.
On the other hand, someone who does not prepare and has no parnassah has no right to ask (they are not asking, they are demanding) for a handout, especially if they were offered the opportunity to prepare.
As Chazal said: Ezehu Chacham Haroeh Es Hanolad.
This is unique to Israel, and B”H, not at all the case outside Israel.
Just anothe reason to separate church & state in Israel. When are the Charaidim finally going to suggest it?
Mistama if you can make sure that the Aino Yehudim you do business with are not Over the sheva Mitzos Beni Noach (Kigoyn Gezel Adam), that would be a positive.
They are just big machmirim over there.
Its easy to be Machmir mit Yennem’s Gelt.
That gemerah is anything is against capitalism as it says profit cannot exceed 1/6th.
Exactly. The workers would not work (even without free trade) if they were not making money. By the fact that they do work means it is worth their while. If you want to give them extra, Kol HaKavod, but why should you?
Does Worf count?
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Bava Basra 90A
Mod 42: There is a singer Shloime Jax?
“Inside a fat girl there is a thin girl and a lot of chocolate.”
nizzard hash
GAW – If you do switch to a Golem-based workforce there may be the complications of chain-smoking Golem-rights activists and whatnot to deal with.
Stiletto heels vs. Charaidim. I’d like to see someone try to stop her from sitting in the front of the bus!
I just want one person to prove to me how knowing Math and being literate in English (The Lingua-Franca of the world, the lanugage of commerce ) damages the Torah.
A challenge!
The answer is very Pashut, IMHO. The Gedolim are very much aware that the average Charaidi is unequipped for contact with the outside world (as they follow the Rav Dessler Mehalech in Chinuch, as I have posted elsewhere). As such, preventing any such contact is a priority. Not learning math or english prevents the aforementioned Charaidi from going out in the world and getting a job, and as the main (not side) point, prevents him from having contact with the outside world.
Math and English is not the point at all.
Plain, simple Garak
And I was going to say Dax, as in Shloime Dax the singer.
I had a Rebbe in 8th grade who said it’s Apikorsus to say that Rishonim made a mistake.
Unfortunately, that is Apikorsus. 🙂
Gelt, Gelt and Gelt. That is all it is about, and I am sticking to my guns on this. No one is forcing anyone to learn any secular studies. It is a precondition for government funding, nothing more.
What the Charaidim really need is to find an alternative source of income from their current life on the dole. Might I suggest creation of a Golem (or five).
Golems are a proven technology (as the Maharal has already created one) and can be used in a golem-based currency (See: Golems of Um). Golems do not need to sleep and do not get tired. They can be hired out to earn money so that the Charaidim can stay in learning. They are a perfect solution to an otherwise unsolvable problem.
I should have 3 points, based on that standard. One more in the “Why Can’t Women Get Modern Smicha” thread.
interjection: You are 100% correct (IMHO).
Rationalfrummie: You still have not brought a single example whare Halacha was determined by Chazal due to “goyish systems”.
Until then you are all arguing a hypothetical that may not exist.
but here its obvious it is
Once again, where is here?
rationalfrummie: You still haven’t brought an example.
Well that would make shidduchim interesting
Its basically the way it is now. A few beliefs, wear the beard and you get accepted as a dwarf. (al la Pepe)
A few beliefs, wear the hat & jacket and poof (without any Chafing), you are an accepted yeshiva bochur. You now deserve life support.
I think my best guess would be to say that it’s like asking what would R’ Akiva would hold if he were R’ Meir, regarding “chosh’shin l’miut’a” (or any two members of Chaza’l, on any issue in Sha’s).
The obvious difference being Mesorah vs. life experiences. A more correct dimyon (IMHO) would be supporting Am Haretzim and Rebbe (during the hunger), in which Rebbe concluded from his life experiences that taxes come from Am Haratzim.
Otherwise I think your answer is a good one.
I still intend on responding to your question re: bugs – just haven’t had too much opportunity to sit with it.
No problem.
Tifllus is from the shoresh of Tafel, or secondary (like Ikar and Tafel).
Call it a “bias ne’eman”.
Amen!
DY: In all seriousness, it leads one to ask what R’ Meir would have held has these issues not come up in his life. What would R’ Akiva hold about R’ Meir’s Shittos with R’ Akiva having Rochel (Or Eishes TurnusRufus) instead of Bruria as a wife?
For example, Hellenistic ideals of women and their role greatly influenced this halachic sphere.
Would you mind bringing an example?
just my hapence:
Which raises a good question. If someone only continues someone else’s reference, should they still get points?
DY: I’m saying that is what the YCT people would say, not what I believe.
We both know that the Torah does not believe in “equality”; we were in agreement in a discussion regarding hilchos tzeddakah. The Torah affords different status to Kohanim. Need I bring more examples? I wouldn’t use the word bigoted for any of those either.
But if it is due to personal experiences instead of Halacha Mi’Sinai (just to play the opposite side for a minute…). That is why I brought the TT. Not to say that Chazal were biased (which we agree they were not), but to say that Chazal were “biased” is not Bizayon TC, as those bigger than us already said so. It would however be Bizayon TC to say they were biased and therefore they were primitive, etc. which seems to be the YCT opinion.
Look at bava Basra 25 and pesachim 94 to see that the Amoraim believed the earth was flat, the universe was geocentric, and that the sun literally travels through the sky. They also believed that you could see demons by burning a black cat and putting its ashes in one’s eyes.
Next thing you are going to tell me is that the Rabbah Bar Bar Channah Gemaros in the beginning of the fifth perek in BB are meant to be taken literally as well.
As long as you don’t sing about yidden encouraging other yidden to worship Avoda Zara, like “Ish Es Rayehu Y’azoru”.
He’s still right, because, l’shitosom, they are being mevazeh Chaza”l.
You mind explaining that? I think you mean they are calling Chazal “Bigoted” as a slur, and “we know better”?
DY: So you go with option 3. (meaning that R’ Meir was correct as his life experiences showed him that women are inferior, and as such he was mesaken the Brocha to thank the Ribbono Shel Olam for not making him inferior).
IMHO, I agree that is the Pshat in the T”T. It does mean though that Chazal (specifically R’ Meir) were biased against women, but correctly so according to the T”T (which was my original point to PBA).
DY: I won’t disagree with the “controversial” point (which he certainly was, as a businessman, post Kesef Mishna that everyone is Somech on :-), besides for writing the banned My Uncle the Netziv), but I’m not sure what you mean by the middle paragraph. Are you saying that R’ Meir was Mesaken due to his experiences and internal biases? Are you saying that is what the TT is saying? Or are you saying that R’ Meir’s experiences were indicative of the correct Halacha?
Please elaborate.
Mevazeh talmid chochom.
That is an awfully harsh charge to throw at the Torah Temimma I quoted earlier.
He hit me back first.
See, now Joe is hitting people. Really, this has to be stopped.
PBA: An old friend of mine pointed this out to me when I was defending the Bracha of “Shelo Asani Isha”. (The “Gam Yesh Lomar”). Personally, even if it is true, it makes no difference, as once Chazal were Mesaken to say the brocha, we say it, no matter the reasoning behind it, just like any other Takanas Chazal which doesn’t fall off just because the reasoning no longer exists. This is the Torah Temmima, please allow the link.
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14052&st=&pgnum=219
Finally, you have to differentiate between Minhag, Takanos & Halacha. The Halacha is that a woman can not be an Eid or be part of a minyan because the Torah requires males. Period. Takanos like Yichud (2 males vs. 2 females) also do not change due to society. Minhag on the other hand is more ambiguous. It was always the “Minhag” for women not to go to school until Bais Yaakov.
See, that’s why you were wrong to begin with; he always had the option of switching patterns.
Only because you guys made me say something. One day he would have woken up without any new five letter words and quit.
It is all your fault.
pants r pant no matter wat color . if ur “posek” wouldnt twist the torah to get out of it watever heter he wants he would have less such problems with his kids
Now that Joseph moved to three letters, he will never run out of screen names! Boo Hoo 🙁
Re number 6. I’m not convinced the zionist differences have as much to do with an understanding of history, as much to an ideological difference. It’s a bit insulting to say that if the chazon ish, or the Brisker Rav, or the Satmar Rav had understood history they’d have been zionists.
Each of your examples HAD a derech (at least for 2/3, the CI & Satmer Rov, I can’t speak for Brisker Rov) due to their understanding of history. Satmer Rov was an isolationist, and the CI came to a compromise with Ben Gurion.
I have yet to meet a person that considers himself to be an extremist.
I am an extremist regarding certain Halachos (for example, Shekiah), and will admit it.
At this point, I’m better off keeping my pen off the paper. Fine.
YU and YCT both teach Tanach and Machshava.
Dr. Hall: WADR, Colleges are supposed to teach philosophy and “Bible studies”. IIRC, CUNY schools teach Tanach & “Machshava” as well.
The question is if it is taught in high school/college as a Limud, or as a subject. It is certainly more common to learn Nach as a “history” subject.
I can’t speak for YCT, as I know nothing about it. I would think though that they are an exception, rather than the rule, to “Modern” or “centrist” Yiddishkeit.
No.
rav eliashev ZTL and other such gedolim are as litvish as they come
I believe Rav Elyashiv ZTL was a Yerushalmi? If you want to define him as a Litvak (which he was not), then fine.
PBA: First and foremost, thank you. I will address the points.
Point 1: Yiddishkeit is the center of our lives and everything is viewed in the eyes of being a Yid and serving the Ribbono shel Olam: I would hope everyone agrees to that.
Point 2: Chochma BaGoyim Taamin: I don’t know anyone who does not use the successes to the non-Jews (such as medicine, science, etc.) to their benefit.
Point 2a: Being attuned to culture: I don’t know what is meant by “attuned”, but this would be an obvious difference between Charaidim and “Centrist”.
Point 3: Being part of the “broader human range”: I’m not sure what this means, but “feeling a kinship and existential bond with even those segments of jewish society who do not share our traditional faith and values” sounds to me like the Kiruv movement.
Point 4: More influence from women: See Reb. Tarshish, David and even Rebbetzin Kanievsky ZTL.
Point 5: The study of tanakh, parshanut, and mahshavah in yeshiva. The MO schools that I am aware of don’t do any of these. Perhaps they do in EY. I would give this a neither.
Point 6: A keener understanding of history: This is really more of a “Zionist” item. Rabbi Rosenbloom recently lamented (on CC) that the Charaidim have no “plan” on how they would like the country to be run, while the Tzionim have put out seforim on top of seforim.
So I see one point of difference between Charaidim and “centrists”, with a possible additional point for Tzionim.
I am pro capital punishment. They should rehabilitate these criminals by hanging them (the capital punishment) until within half an inch of their lives. Then force them (with a new identity, so their former selves are practically dead) into doing something useful to society, like running the post office.
Problem is getting a good hangman, and Daniel ‘One Drop’ Trooper is already taken.
Why don’t you ask the seminary what their policy is?
Second this.