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PBA: Rabbi Bender’s school area includes the Five Towns. $300-400 may be the norm there.
You can discuss whatever you want, and this is a perfectly acceptable topic, but until someone verifies the other story (say, by being aware of something called a chessed voucher which you are given as tzedaka and use to buy shoes), let’s just pretend that other thread didn’t happen.
I believe the Davis Memorial Fund in the Five Towns follows this practice.
Actually I usually see Beer and Schnapps (Hard Liquor) at the Rebbes Tishes.
How many drunk chassidim do you see?
It depends how sober (or not) I am. Sometimes I see none, sometimes one, and sometimes quite a few (and interestingly, they all have the same Straimel in the same size) 🙂
147 – I am not sure what cave you live in, but it would seem to me that “kiddush clubs” are everywhere, and bochurim are getting trashed over Shabbos nearly everywhere. Rabbi Bender is 100% correct in his assessment of the problem. There are no limits anymore.
As far as the smoking, this is also an obvious problem but more people admit that it is a problem than they will admit to the drinking. We are mandated by halacha to drink on certain occasions, and people have exploited this to the point of addiction, but we never have a mitzvah to put a cigarette in our mouths…
+1
Pictures before or after the chuppah
Either way is acceptable. What is not acceptable is when your guests are waiting for over an hour for the Chassan & Kallah to come out. I have even been to weddings where the “break was two or more hours. There are always excuses (Cousin just showed up, baby spit up and needs a new gown, imp ran out of red ink, etc.) but remember when people think of your wedding, they will not remember how nice it was, but how long it took.
What about the minor detail that before the chuppah they cant touch each other so the pictures would be just more vort pics so they take them after the chuppah
I can not understand for the life of me how taking pictures of the Chassan and Kallah “touching” is considered Tznius.
Still didn’t work. I guess I’m computer illiterate.
This is a test
I had to see if it worked
Health – OK, I assume you would know more about this than I would. I’m a Gavra, not a Doctor.
Sure I did. Which part of “A chumrah by definition is not Bal Tosef” is not understood?
Reuven decides to smoke one cigarette a year. He does not plan or expect to smoke a second cigarette that year. He is full control of his faculties and not dependent on anyone else’s choices. On what grounds can you say it is assur for him to smoke his cigarette?
Smoking a Single Cigarette Rapidly Reduces Combined Concentrations of Nitrate and Nitrite and Concentrations of Antioxidants in Plasma
Masahiko Tsuchiya, MD; Akira Asada, MD; Emiko Kasahara; Eisuke F. Sato, MD; Mitsuo Shindo, MD; Masayasu Inoue, MD
Chovel B’Atzmo is Assur. Of course, there may be extenuating circumstances, but they don’t change the Halacha.
A chumrah by definition is not Bal Tosef, as you are not doing the action due to possible Halachic requirements, but rather your own Netiyos or as a Geder.
The problem becomes when Chumrahs are called “Halachic requirements” or “practical halacha”, in which case there could be an issue with Bal Tosef.
I’m not one for extra chumras but if i had to be in front of a group of men, especially 25000, i would definitely want to have my face covered.
I agree, and this was my reason. Not for Tznius, but sheer embarassment and/or stage fright.
Since when does hilchos tznius require a woman to cover her face when there are men around? Are Belz chassidim now joining the burka cult?
Its a minhag of many, and had you thought about it for a second, you could think of many good reasons why the girl would not want to be stared at during her chppah.
Yes. But hopefully those who are critical thinkers and have, deservedly so, lost respect for people in high places who have been less than honest, wont be criticized for non-acceptance of unacceptable public behavior.
The past week or two have proven something that Chazal have said previously. Aseh Licha Rav doesn’t mean that the “Olam”, “Charaidim”, “The Moetzes” or anyone else should make your Rav. YOU should make your Rav and follow him. Obviously not everyone who has any of these terms (or is even called a “Gadol” by some or many) is fit to be followed.
Gavra, what’s wrong with a wealthy shviger?
Doesn’t everyone wish they had one???
Certainly not. Even those that have one would very possibly prefer just the Shver (by any means neccesary, including hiring Mr. Jonathan Teatime (pronounced “Te-ah-tim-eh”) to perform an inhumation), if they could get away with it.
(Enough Shvigger jokes).
DH: I have already decided on an alternative understanding. In addition, you are getting into dangerous territory by saying that one should not follow the actions of the Amoraim in the Gemorah because they were “singled out”. Who is to say that Shalom Bayis, Kavod Shabbos or a much needed break from yeshiva food should not apply to any specific individual? (Its similar to the earlier Machlokes regarding women and the individual vs. the the Klal. I don’t expect you to agree here either).
Gavra
You’re good at twisting things. Are you a lawyer?
If I were snarky, I would respond:
“WIY, you’re good at giving backhanded insults. Are you a wealthy Shviger?”
If I were snarky. 🙂
Honestly, I would have thought a thought like that would have been beneath you. I don’t know much at all about Lakewood (in America), but I’m sure that’s pure motzi shem ra.
I’m trying to understand something that is not otherwise understandable. Lots of Torah comes out of Lakewood, and MOST who are there learning try to be Ovdei Hashem. Its the few that use Torah as their “excuse” (quoting stories like this one) who give the town a bad reputation.
I am speaking in generalizations. The only difference is that I’m also questioning whether an urge to learn Torah is a valid netiya.
OK. We can agree to disagree. Torah is the Yerusha of Klal Yisroel. A woman who learns it gets Schar, and brings one closer to the Ribbono Shel Olam. (All of these are givens). If you want to say she shouldn’t do so, that is your issue.
I don’t know why you pulled kavod haTorah into it. Is that part of the famous Lakewood shitta? My understanding of Rav Ahron Kotler’s Rebbitzen’s admonishment is that she objected to his being in the kitchen on the grounds that he was male, not a ben Torah. I could have misunderstood it.
So she is Stam an Am Haaretz who doesn’t know that men have been working in kitchens (including the Amoraim that I & WS mentioned earlier) for Dorei Doros? Your explanation may be plausable, but mine is being Dan L’Kaf Zechus.
Know what? I’ll be Dan L’Kaf Zechus that the story didn’t happen as told, and the Bochur was a slob who would mess up her kitchen. This was her nice way of saying “Slob Aroyis”.
Forget the Lakewood comment, I’ll retract that.
As for gavra’s mention of Rebbetzin Leibowitz, and, Lehavdil bein chayim l’chayim, Rebbetzin David- these two brilliabt ladies never tried to become Rabbis. Nor did they limit their accomplishments to a nice hot potato kugel. All within the framework of our Mesora.
+1
It’s pretty sad that you think women do not have the same YH. The difference is, our society encourages men to act upon that YH without consequences.
And let me guess, you are a girl.
You don’t know the power of the Dark Side
GAW, nobody said that CH”V the Ramban is not valid. The question is if/how applicable this mitzva is today.
And if someone learns the Ramban K’Pshuto, that is valid.
and im sure there are no horror stories of men in egalitarian homes who were too darn lazy to take out the garbage and made up a dumb shittah to validate themselves?
There was a story though of a Bochur who, following the Rebbitzen’s shittah, almost starved to death because he was unable to bring himself to enter the kitchen to get food.
He subsequently was forced (as he was so hungry) to eat (the story is unsure at this point) either the Grogros of Rav Tzaddok or CMOT Dibbler’s “Sausage inna bun”, and that was the last of him.
Perhaps at most you have heard of this in a couple of horror stories which may or may not have been true, but I do not believe you are aware of this in any widespread way.
If it is beneath “Kavod HaToyrah” to cook for one’s family (or one’s self), it is certainly beneath them to take out the garbage.
Boruch Hashem I don’t live in Lakewood, so I am unaware of specific examples. I am Modah that today, mistama the live-in Hungarian maid of the Kollel guy takes out the garbage, not the husband and certainly not the pampered wife.
As an FYI, I have heard from the family (and it is on the OU website) that it was Rav Gifter.
I think I specifically mentioned cooking because I enjoy cooking (maybe breakfast for himself, I don’t remember) and my R”Y told us that one time he was cooking and his grandmother R’ Ahron Kotler’s Rebbetzin told him that “a bochur doesn’t belong in the kitchen”.
Unfortunately, that is part of a larger shittah (to which I strongly disagree). Out of that shittah comes the Kollel guys who claim that taking out garbage is “beneath them”. I hear, it is a “Lakewood” shittah, but IMHO (and that of many Gedolim of the previous generations) Chazal would disagree.
I am not talking about going to a nice shiur once or twice a week for chizuk. Althogh as you point out, his benefits from such a thing would be a kosher and torahdig home. The difference I think is that this is only an indirect way of getting schar: a more torahdig home= less aveiros, more mitzvos. While a man’s limud Torah directly generates schar for his wife.
Agreed.
I don’t think these are my ideas. I look at what men are mitzuveh to do and what women are and take my cues from there. A man is mitzuveh to learn Torah a women is not. Ergo, a man fulfills his tachlis through limud torah, a women does not. Eishes Chayil doesn’t talk about the women who sit by the gates. I’ve never heard of those Rebbetzins.
Once again, you are “playing G-d” by making the Tachlis of every woman not to learn. Who are you to tell the Ribbono Shel Olam why He put a specific woman in this world? Perhpas “B’derech Klal” we can say they have a Netiyah (Chazal say so), but for an individual?
If you are referring to my statement that Serving Hashem as best he can means first of all doing the mitzva of yishuv haaretz, I take extreme umbrage at your denigration of Ramban.
It is not a simple Ramban, but it is an Offen Ramban. I’m going to have to agree here that it is a valid Shittah, even if I don’t see it paskened L’Halacha (and certainly not by the pseudo-Satmers here)
Think about it- it’s all the mindset. Be honest with yourself- would you listen equally, as a gut reaction, to a rav and a rebbetzin?
The Sergeant Jackrum paradox.
I hear where you are coming from, that a woman actually needs to be right in order to be listened to, while a “Rabbi” just have to have the correct pieces of paper (and not even those will help if he says something against the party line. See: Rav Shteinman & Rabbi Lipman.)
You have a point.
WS: Fine. That was her choice. How about the other examples I brought in that thread? Reb. Jungreis? Reb. Tarshish?
Women can easily “make their mark” within the orthodox jewish world without being a “Rabbit” or Maharat.
An example: A man is able to cook. When a man cooks, he makes food. When a women cooks she does avodas haMikdash. So why would a man cook (obviously not talking in extenuating circumstances)?
This is not only sexist, its plain wrong. When the Kohanim roasted meat in the Bais Hamikdash, they were not doing Avodas HaKodesh? Do I have to list the Tannaim/Amoraim who would specifically cook or otherwise prepare for Shabbos themselves?
Another example: When a man sends his wife out to learn Torah, he gets (hopefully embarrassed, but other than that) nothing. When a women sends her husband out to learn Torah, she gets all the schar and benefits of learning Torah.
When a man sends his wife out to learn Torah, he gets a more Kosher and Torahdik home (assuming he sends her out to learn the right things, not the Sem “Yalkut Shimoni” Tiflus). Halevai every woman should have a seder in Basar V’Chalav.
My point is, why make our own avodas perach? Why would we want to put ourselves into a situation where we are not enhancing ourselves is the way most beneficial for our roles?
Who are you to decide what the Netiya and the Derech of Avaodas Hashem is for any individual, male or female? Who are you to say that the Torah of people like Reb. Nechama Leibowitz or Reb. Bruria David should have not been revealed to Klal Yisroel!?
women who gain certain positions of authority lose some of their feminine qualities.
V’Haryah, the Monstrous Regiment of Borogravia.
That is not to say that there aren’t different drachim for different nitiyos.
IMHO, the lack of recognition of this fact is one of the biggest problems in the greater Yeraim community, both on the “right” and on the “left”.
I have seen/heard of cases of people “following their own derech” to a bad end.
That is why you MUST always have a Rav for guidance.
Derech HaMelech: I told you we agree 🙂
What they can do is peacefully protest, and then compromise. Also forcing your views on others will not help your cause.
I mentioned this to someone last week, and I’ll repeat it here. The “Charaidim” in Bais Shemesh that attacked the girls for “Tznius”, and the Mehadrin bus “enforcers” did more harm to Torah and Yiddishkeit than Lapid ever could, and they will have to answer for it in Shomaiym.
In the meantime, the answer is to do what Yidden have always done in Galus. Lay low, and appease. Right now (Boruch Hashem), its only about Gelt. If it continues, it could easily get worse.
Yeshivat Maharat represents a natural evolution towards a pluralistic community, where women and men, from every denomination, can enhance the Jewish world.
Haven’t these people ever heard of Reb. Batsheva Kanievsky ZTL?
There’s nothing to prove.
And I didn’t say there was. All I said was that your argument was fallacious. I did not comment on the truthfulness of the action.
At what point in our history did the guidance of our gedolim into something completely different, i.e. a priori dictation to all of day to day decision making
Who says it did? Perhaps for the Hamon Am who are unable to work their own way towards a derech Hashem, similar (as you point out) to the Chassidishe Rebbes who were able to be Madrich the simple Am Haratzim by having them follow the Rebbe (of course, those who were able still benefited from the Rebbe, but without blind obedience).
I believe you give too much credence to the “Internet Charaidi” (e.g. Joseph/Frumteens), without being aware that even in EY, (I would think) most Charaidim (non-Chassidim) do not blindly follow their Gedolim (they may follow due to finding out that is their Derech, or L’hepech societal pressure, etc., but not M’Kol V’Kol). A pashut example of this is Rav Chaim, about whom the Steipler was upset since he didn’t follow the Steipler’s Derech in Limud. None the less, Rav Chaim knew what was best for himself and became Rav Chaim.
I believe if you would ask Rav Chaim or Rav Aharon Leib Shlita, or Rav Elyashiv ZTL, they would say the same thing. The “Hamon Am” may be best to just be followers, but those who are capable should follow their own derech.
Thank you
Why don’t you ring up the ten of the greatest men of our generation constituting the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah
Warning! Fallacy! Argument from authority!!!
First please prove to me these are 10 of the greatest men. Then prove no other “greatest man” (man being men or women) disagree. Only then is it is an Argument from authority. Without that you don’t even reach that point.
Their school, their dress code. I have no issues. Perhaps the glasses are “in” and they want to discourage children concentrating on fashion.
The rule was that Chareidi yeshivos got funding and had control over their own curriculum. Now the government is changing the law and chareidim are working to prevent that. Where within that framework do you see people who don’t want to follow the rules?
If that was all they were doing, no one would have any issues. The problem becomes when you call anyone who wants to take away funding a “Rasha”, and declare that funding is a “right”.
Part of the reason why I am annoyed at the Charaidim is because their PR/arguments are so incompetent. Seriously, the “Askanim” that are out there fighting are out of their league. There are much better ways to argue the point (and without fighting!) that may have actually accompished something.
HaARETZ July’08 in an article on
Self selection.
Ok. So then I don’t understand where the point you disagree with me is.
As I said originally, we don’t disagree.
So you’re saying this is all a big mistake. really Rav Ahron Leib Steinman wants to introduce secular subjects into charedi mosdos, but the people who collect the money are preventing him from doing so?
It has nothing to do with our main point.
So you are saying the government is acting unconstitutionally? I don’t know a lot about law, but I don’t think tax money is held in escrow by the government for the Israeli people. I think the money belongs to the government and they have the right to choose where they put it. Do you think that someone who thinks the Israeli economy needs more governmental funding and he is also being penalized when the government spends it on defense?
(As I have posted before,) I agree with you once again. Until now, everyone who took money was justified, since the government offered it. If the government no longer offers it, then you are no longer justified in taking it. The taxpayers/voters have decided to no longer offer money, so the government (following the wishes of “the people”), is no longer offering it.
There are no inherent “right” to get money from the government, it is only what the government decides to offer. The government has decided to only help those who attempt to help themselves (in the area of Parnassah. Even that is not true, they are just offering less help than before).
I’ll have to retract what I said before. Anyone has the right to ask, there is free speech. The government also has the right to say no. You can complain about it, but not break the law because of it.
I’m glad we agree.
So you are saying that charedi paupers (and their families) should be penalized because their gedolim decided that they should not receive a secular education.
No, I’m saying that Israeli taxpayers (and their families) should NOT be penalized because the gedolim decided that their followers should not receive a secular education.
I would be very happy if the money was created Yesh M’Ayin and given to the Charaidim (including myself), so we could sit and learn all day. Blame Adam HaRishon for that one.
Or their brother?
Huh?
HaRav HaGaon Rosh HaYeshiva Rav Aaron Kotler, the real man in charge (Boruch Hashem). As Rav Shach (IIRC) paskened, the one who brings in the funding is the real Rosh Yeshiva.
the exact length of time it takes for the moon to circle earth.
You mean the Metonic cycle?
On the one hand, I agree that it is important for the Rabbonim to have complete authority over chareidi yeshivas.
Or their brother?