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just a member: That is why I said Litvaks, not “Yeshivish”. The “Yeshivish” are practically Chassidish with the Gedolim serving as the Rebbes (which would be similar to Lehavdil the Pope). Litvaks do not believe that a central authority has the right to pasken for them, just like the Protestants (or the Anglican Church, if you prefer) do not accept the authority of the Pope.
that isnt correct. see my explanation to mr. gavra above about this. (threads third post.)
Thank you for addressing me as Mr. However, Mr. Gavra is like saying Mr. Mr. 🙂
The only reason the sides agree is because the Chassidim adapted Limud from the Litvaks, and the Yeshivish adapted Rebbe-“worship” (not AZ CV, but submission in mundane matters) from Chassidim (they just call their Rebbes “Gedolim”). From your comments in the Gadol thread, there would be very significant differences between what you hold and what they (Chassidim or “Yeshivish”) hold regarding central authority, since you still believe in individual P’sak from your own Rov.
Rav Belsky & Rav Shachter are jointly responsible for the OU. Many would consider the former “Yeshivish”, and the latter “MO”.
the spiritual dangers of smoking
Please explain.
Do we need to explain the spiritual dangers of suicide? U’shmartem is just as much a mitzva as any other, if not more (as it is Doche most other mitzvos). Furthermore, secondhand smoke kills as well, so there is Retzicha involved.
Seriously, if someone had to choose between a ham sandwich & their first smoke (not skipping a single smoke, as that would be a different question), hypothetically (and I am not a Rabbi!) I would imagine halacha would say they should eat the ham.
I retract my response and agree with yytz.
Thanks for getting a screenname.
No, that would not ba accurate for what you are trying to discribe (but would work for the differences between Chassidim & Litvaks). Reform & Conservative literally “reformed” Halacha, and that is the response.
Jews who changed the laws to fit into modern times.
before 1980 chareidim didnt serve in the army. so nothing changed from 1980.
Alert. Alert. Alert. A Joseph-type response has been detected. A Joseph-type response has been detected. Alert. Alert. Alert.
I’m pretty sure this is a universal human trait not exclusive to Chareidim. Someone on the CR just recently posted a link to an article which showed that there is a clear trend in MO circles to look down at chareidim.
I don’t disagree with your point. It’s not a “human” trait though, it’s due to non-exposure to people unlike yourself, and/or feeling threatened. MO are “threatened” by Charaidim (who for example are trying to take over EY and impose their own version of Halacha). Charaidim are threatened by the MO (they can stop supporting the Charaidim, as we see happening in EY). So both sides look down on each other.
Part of Ahavas Yisroel is to be aware that there are multiple valid paths to Avodas Hashem, and not to judge why or how an individual is reaching towards the Ribbono Shel Olam.
The Torah in many places makes it clear that looking down at anyone is wrong. May we all be zocheh to conquer that Yetzer Hora.
Ken Yehi Ratzon.
i grew up in a modern orthodox family. when i was a teen our family joined a yeshivish community. but when we lived in the mo community, many mo community members looked down on frun people who werent mo. looking down on others is something i never experienced in my large yeshivish community.
Since you are a “user not found”, I have to assume you are Joseph.
Sorry. If you aren’t, please repost under your “real” screen name.
That being said, I don’t think you are incorrect, but I don’t have first hand experience (a benefit of living in a very mixed community). I haven’t seen the MO look down on chariadim here (at least that I can remember).
Maybe a jeweler can smooth the edges. I don’t know if they are anti-tarnish treated, and if it can be re-treated.
This is probably your best bet.
Shraga18: No problem. Unfortunately, it is all too common for Charaidim in EY (and America to a lesser extent) to “look down” on those who are not like them. If I thought Hashem wanted me to be Charaidi, I would be one. I’m decently sure He doesn’t.
As per your other point, I never had a smartphone to begin with, even without the directives of the Gedolim 🙂 I knew it would be a waste of my time and a Nisayon that I did not want. Bezras Hashem I will be able to continue my “work” without one.
I’ll start the new thread.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/made-the-switch-smartphone-to-kosher-phone
Well, after I switched I instantaneously lost 130lbs and all my hair grew back. I got a raise and my 1994 Camry became a 2013 Range Rover.
And Chuck Norris stopped off just to say hello.
Which part of “I’m trying to stay away from topics that may cause too much friction and argument” did you not understand? It looks like you’re trying very hard to turn this thread into a platform for chareidi/Gedolim bashing. Sorry, I’m not biting. Start your own thread if you’re in the mood for that.
I’m not bashing Gedolim, I’m discrediting YOU. Basically for the reason jbaldy22 is bringing. You come off as a “holier than thou”. “in order to comply with the psak from the E”Y gedolim” is not your reason. Societal pressure is, and you want validation. You are more than welcome to restart your own thread without trying to get validiation for “in order to comply with the psak from the E”Y gedolim” AKA societal pressure.
I’m trying to stay away from topics that may cause too much friction and argument” did you not understand?
So start a new thread about the weather. Had you not mentioned anything in you last response about “I follow the Gedolim, I’m Smart”, then I probably would have agreed to drop it. Now that you realized what you got yourself into you want to back out? I don’t think so.
Now, had you said “I became a Ba’al Teshuva, moved to EY, and dropped my (unfiltered) smartphone for a Kosherphone, and I found that…..” We would not be having this coversation. You brought in the Gedolim, not me.
I agree, leave the Gedolim out of this. You certainly should have.
The little I know: I happen to agree with you. We should be treating pot like vicodin, and make tobacco illegal (or punish users by forcing them out of the heath insurance system).
I know too many pot heads whose brains are fried even when they aren’t high to believe that it has little affect.
That is because they are potheads, not because they smoke weed 🙂
I really have no interest in this becoming a thread about Gedolim/chareidim/E”Y vs U.S./Halacha vs Hashkafa etc etc etc. I’m trying to stay away from topics that may cause too much friction and argument.
You are already too late for that. You shouldn’t have said anything about moving to EY if you didn’t want to bring it up, as it was not relevant to the point you wanted to make.
The bottom line is that when I lived in the U.S., no one was telling me it’s forbidden, and both being in high-tech and loving gadgets I didn’t put too much thought into it. When I lived in E”Y, and became aware that practically every Chareidi Gadol said it’s forbidden, I moved to a kosher phone, although in the beginning it was quite difficult. Some may call doing what the Gedolim say close-minded. I call it smart.
So you dropped it because you became more aware of the P’sakim of the EY Gedolim. Had you been aware of their Psak in America, you claim that you would you have never had a smartphone in the first place? What made you so aware of their Psak all of the sudden? After all, most of us here (in the US) are and have been very much aware of the EY Charaidi shittos regarding kosher phones. They have been out for quite some time (in fact, since before smart phones were invented).
DaasYochid
a singular mind
R’Moshe requires separate seating at weddings.
Forget oral testimony/rumor, he is mattir in Igros Moshe.
This is one of the things that I like about you, DY. You are a Modeh Al HaEmes, even if it is not popular.
PBA: Alcohol. DY brought it up. Now the Tzad HaShave is….
1. It’s absolutely possible that they hold it’s assur, but “k’sheim shmitzvah lomar davar hanishma…etc”. I don’t think I ever saw a psak saying it’s “muttar”.
Sure there is, in America they have specifically allowed use of smartphones with filters. V’Harayah, the head of the Agudah in America uses one (and famously had it go off in the middle of his speech during a convention).
2 But I don’t actually think that’s the case. I think that Halachically all the Gedolim agree that having unfiltered internet is absolutely assur, whether it’s on a smartphone or a PC. Gedolim in E”Y, however, realizing that the vast majority of those with smartphones don’t actually get a filter for it, decided that the issue was important enough to go and make a geder. The Gedolim in the US, however, realize the American tzibur wouldn’t adhere to a geder like that.
So you admit that it is a geder made up by the gedolim in Eretz Yisroel, vs. an actual psak/Issur. End story, may someone own a smartphone with a filter al pi Halacha? The answer to that is yes. However, in EY the Gedolim said it was Assur none the less because…the Tzibbur there is more pliable to societal pressure? Because the Tzibbur is unable to make distrinctions between filtered and unfiltered internet? Or perhaps because the Tzibbur does not need to be connected as Charaidim shouldn’t be working anyway?
Besides, you didn’t answer my main point. If you believed that there should have been a Geder created in America, but there wasn’t for external reasons, why did you own a smartphone in America? What changed?
First of all, Rabbonim have the right to disagree. If you live in a place where your Rov paskens a certain way, you’ll listen to his psak. If you then move to a different place and have a different Rov, you’ll listen to him. I don’t know why that’s so hard to understand.
It is rather difficult. The halacha does not change from place to place. Now I agree that one should be Machmir to follow the minhagim/psakim of the Rov in a specific location, but that is due to Kavod, not P’sak. Besides, that would mean that depending on where you were (Mea Shearim vs. the Gush), you would or would not have a smartphone (as the Rov in the Gush is not the same as that in Mea Shearim).
Second of all, the Gedolim on the two sides of the ocean always recognized that what works for E”Y doesn’t always work for the U.S. and vice versa. Therefore many of their psakim tend to only be mean for local consumption. I think that’s pretty easy to understand as well.
I agree, but once again, you are just proving that the issue is not Halachic. Halacha would not change depending on what side of the ocean you live. Hashkafa does.
Having said all that, chances are the Gedolim in the U.S. would pasken the same way as the ones in E”Y if they thought the tzibur would listen to them.
You’ve proven my point once again. If it was Assur Mamash, there is no way that anyone would be Mattir.
The legal aspect is important. It’s a different kind of defiance to buy an illegal substance.
Unless you are under 18, in which case the tobacco is illegal as well.
I hear your point, even though there is no logic behind the law, only politics & special interests.
Please?
I was still first.
Are we talking nicotine or marijuana?
Besides for the legal aspects (and the proven power of the American Tobacco industry), why would there be a difference? If anything tobacco would be worse, as long term effects of marijuana are minimal at worst.
Twice. ?
My post is stuck (smartphone thread).
and I cited her in the same thread.
After I did, and mine is a direct quote. I should get points for it.
since I’ve seen charedim who wear dark brown fedoras.
You mean “since I’ve seen FAKE charedim who wear dark brown fedoras.”
All real Charaidim wear black hats. See PBA’s post above.
People had children. The children grew up, and then they had children. And now they have children.
Funny how the world works like that.
But until 1980 they didn’t?
The Archchancellor.
Black hat = Charaidi, Charaidi = Black hat.
Very similar to a Wizard. Hat = wizard, wizard = hat.
A Charaidi without a Black hat is therefore not a Charaidi.
When you say that, you mean they were unlimited and it happened to be that only that many people wanted them. Right?
So what changed that so many want exemptions today?
I’m afraid you wasted your time on some misdirected analysis. I believe one should listen to the Gedolim. The Gedolim in the U.S. don’t forbid using a smartphone, so when I lived there I had one. The Gedolim in E”Y, however, do forbid it, so when I moved there I upgraded to a kosher phone. As simple as that.
So which ones do you believe are correct? The “Gedolim” in EY or the “Gedolim” in America? And if the “Gedolim” in EY are correct, why didn’t you follow them in the first place? (“Gedolim” because I don’t know who he talking about that Assered or Mattered smartphones).
Perhaps I’m just confused about the whole thing. Can someone please explain it to me?
Dr. Hall: And a single woman may enter the men’s section for various reasons (I heard recently that in some Chassidus (and I don’t remember which)), The Chassan’s mother would enter the men’s section to throw candy at him by his aufruf). That has nothing to do with the Klal of men and women mingling, which is certainly not allowed in a Davar Sheb’kedusha scenario (and I’ll leave the definitions for the experts, but a minyan Kavuah in a shul certainly applies).
When I moved from the U.S. to E”Y, I switched from a smartphone to a kosher phone in order to comply with the psak from the E”Y gedolim.
WADR (and I know I didn’t give it the first time), this looks like the action of someone who was subject to societal pressure. You decided to follow the Gedolim BECAUSE you moved to EY?
I don’t buy it.
If I had to psychoanalyze this, I would say you are looking for validation beacuse you feel bad having to bend to the societal pressure. I hereby pat you on your black hat and say you did the right thing.
See, I even saved you money on the shrink.
P.S. I don’t own a smartphone (BH), and agree with all of your points. Just be honest with yourself why you did it.
P.P.S. This is nothing against you personally, just an interesting societal quirk about EY and Charadism (and one of the main reasons why I don’t live there).
GaW:you are repeating an old “chestnut” (imagined statement): there was never a possibility that non-induction is criminal and therefore, claiming that “the mishtara will burst into the yeshivos” is totally bogus. The only penalties will be financial.
That was my point as well. When it happens (which it won’t), I’ll be concerned/protest. Until then, its all about Gelt.
WIY: I’m not saying that I disagree, I just don’t think that boy/girl mingling is the only issue that they are trying to prevent.
That being said, I assume you get get pizza in Brooklyn from a store that is not on Ave. J or M? Maybe Ave.s L or N have pizza too? I’ll grant you it probably won’t be as good as Di Fara (which is on Ave. J), but it may still be eatable.
Any quota flies in the face of that.
DY: If the yeshivos went Brisker, no quota would affect them. I still see it as a matter of Gelt, not a matter of life & death. When the mishtara breaks into the Mir or Ponevitch & pulls bochrim out to join the army (like the Cantonists), count me in.
The point is not hashgochah temidis. The point is mirsus.
Like!! However, then the point is mingling, not stopping off for a pickup or going with a few other bochrim. (from the guy’s side, as I am a guy).
That being said, I don’t think that the issue is specifically relationships. There is also the smoking (tobacco or other items), boozing and plain not-menchlechkeit (stuff between men) that goes on at a motzei shabbos hangout. The menahelim would (IMHO) be doing the community a favor by policing the area for untoward activity. And yes, it is their job, as teachers of children, their job does not stop at the yeshiva gates.
I will disagree that the pizza shops are a “fire”. That is simply not true. Don’t think for a moment that I sanction these casual cross-gender relationships. There will always be a place for the yetzer horah, and without pizza shops, it will find its way into our community. Branding everything that is not perfect as extreme evil is unfair to ourselves. It eliminates the requisite prioritization that is needed for us to live normal, Torah lives. Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky ZT”L often stated that we need to always be “normal”. The overbanning mentality we have adopted is destructive, not because these things are good. They are not. Not the internet, not the hanging out, etc. But to give these things the status of the truly worst is untrue. I vote against internet access without filters. I’m not tolerant of pritzus. But we have slipped into a lifestyle of bans, whether decreed by Kol Korehs, letters, ads in the media, etc., without the desperately needed fires of kedusha to sustain us.
This is worth repeating.
The enforcers are the Menahalim of the various Yeshivos. I heard they will be there to see if their boys show.
If the menahelim of the various yeshivos will be at these pizza stores, then they can watch for improper mingling. Therefore, there is no reason why a bocher can’t get a slice after a few hours Motzei Shabbod (or Shabbos afternoon) learning in the BM.
I guess is technically possible to “hang out” with the opposite gender without pleasurable conversation or flirting, but that is extremely unlikely to be what is occurring.
I agree, but it is possible to “hang out” next to a group of the opposite gender without any conversation.
Personally, I like the idea of having separate Pizza shops, especially on Motzei Shabbos. All Bochrim can go to shop A, all Bais Yaakov girls to shop B. All dates to Shop C (formal attire required). Seniors to shop D (AARP card check), and families (certified with Kesubah & birth certificates) to shop E.
Are there five pizza shops on Ave. J?
gaw: Im yirtzei Hashem I’ll get to looking for it in the next week. It’s not stuff I have at the tips of my fingers by any means, so I have to find the time to actually sort it out; bear with me.
Looking forward.
GAW – Even with 5-letter combos that`s still 11,881,376 possibile combinations (26 to the power 5), should take Joseph a while.
But he is getting close, and he cant use certain combinations that include 4 letter words, such as w and an o and a r and a k.
gaw: I have to find it but there is either a Shach or a Rema that explicitly says so in beria.
Mechi Tesi. Also, Nishtah Hataam. The Rema would have never thought guinea pig or Fried Tarantula would be a delicacy. Or Gagh for that matter.
Ok, so there’s a “mutar b’dieved” matzav because their nosen ta’am lifgam
Mehechi Tesi? Have you tried one?
Slimy, yet satisfying
Pumbaa, the Warthog
I was talking about books (or Torah pamphlets, etc.).
Got you. What I was talking about (which is what I would get) are “leaflets”, which usually transform the shaimos. A big heavy package (I don’t remember the last time I got one) will first have the book removed before it is filed.
Without knowing anything more than the title, he probably wasn’t dressed Tznius, so they couldn’t let him in. After reading it, I’ll stand by my statement. Perhaps in the Halachos of this center, Tefilin aren’t Tznius. Maybe they are afraid a F-male will put them on, causing uncontrollable Ta’aivah.
I don’t mind the reading material so much.
If they send me a book, I have no problem keeping it (and still will not send a check). Google “Receipt of Unsolicited Merchandise”
Technically you can’t run out of random letter combinations as they’d form an infinite series…
He has a tendency to only use five letters (of course, next time he wont because I said something).
The thick ones, al pi rov, have shaimos.
I don’t believe that to be true. Most places are smart enough to misspell the shaimos (even if they send something), as they are aware that their mailing (most of the time) ends up in the trash.
dells
Hi Joe.
Hi Joe.