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Toi: That is what I am suggesting that you work on. Changing Egged’s monopoly status via a change in law or a boycott.
If Tznuis is so important, isn’t worth a few taxis for a month or two (until they give in)? You wouldn’t buy a big mac or a miniskirt because it is cheaper, would you?
As I mentioned at least twice, my stance was posed against those who b’shita do not support kollelim. that doesn’t seem to be the case by your explanation.
Oh. In that case we agree.
I’ll add: Hanlon’s Razor
GY: That is what you get for living in a socialist country. You should move to Galt’s Gulch, where you would be able to have whatever type of seating you would like.
In the US as well, there are regulations (for example, a passenger can not be denied service due to skin color), and government rules (such as the insanity known as the Jones Act). However, part of living in the country means you follow the rules. If a bus company is given a monopoly you can:
1: Not use the bus (vote with your feet)
2: Vote to change the rules
What you can’t do is expect to be allowed to skirt them.
In fact, I agree with you in the most part. The Egged monopoly should be removed. Speak to your MP (if you live in Israel) to promote this idea. In fact, the Charaidi community SHOULD boycott Egged until the government allows them to open their own bus line, if that is what they want.
Your comment has nothing to do with secularism, and everything to do with Mammon. (One of the three things the world stands on. The other two are Kesef and Gelt!)
nad the bus lines that are used 99.9% by frum jews should be banned
A good way to get around saying “and” 🙂
I happen to agree with the OP that it is an issue. For a community that is trying to shelter their children, exposing the boys to a woman that they see every day is antithesis to what they are trying to accomplish. I’m sure that Chassidim in New Square & Kiryas Yoel would be up in arms if this happened in their cities. What should Lakewood be any worse?
GAW: “So was Rosa Parks, and Dr. King.
And?”
Perhaps if you explain what your original point was, then I can understand. I thought (as per the article) that the point was that the woman in question doesn’t really care about Charaidim. My answer to that is “so what”? A wrong is a wrong, no matter who points it out, or the purpose of doing so.
If you are bothered by the “premeditation”, then other campaigns were premeditated as well, such as Dr. King’s march.
(no “ands” 😉
A nechtiger tug!
I know of a number of amazing girls who made the trip from far distances to meet Gateways Shadchanim, got interviewed, and have never been called back by them with as much as one name.
So do I. But that is not to say it doesn’t help some.
AZ: By giving more attention to girls in a community. If they are older, then at least someone knows about them. I agree it is not a solution, but it does something.
Derech HaMelech:
If only everyone could be supported in Kollel! B’zman Moshiach, that is exactly what will happen. Everyone will learn in Kollel all day, and be supported.
B’Avonosaynu HaRabbim, that time is not yet here. Now, we have to prioritize. Do I give to Oorah or BMG? My local yeshiva or Tomche Shabbos? It is a very good question, no?
Boruch Hashem, Hashem provided us with Chazal, and Poskim who tell us where we should direct our money first, and where second. We, as frum Yidden, follow Shulchan Aruch. The top general priority (as per SA YD 249:16) is tuition and supporting talmud torahs (I wouldn’t have known this without my Rov pointing it out to me after I asked). That is not to say a small check can’t be given to other things (such as Oorah), but if you follow Halacha, you have to prioritize correctly.
For this reason, the bulk of my Tzedaka goes to local Yeshivos. Paying for Kollel is a distant fourth, if that (although I do sometimes write a check out), as it should be, based on the SA and my Rov. (second is Bedek HaBayis for the shul, third is Tomche Shabbos/food for hungry Aniyim).
I have no problem with those who support Kollels, as long as they follow Shulchan Aruch when doing so.
Gavra:
I don’t think one can predict the future. It is just as (im)possible to support a family and pay tuitions on a Rabbe’s salary with a spouse’s income as it is if the husband were working in a typical white-collar office job. The additional income taxes, alone, are almost punitive.
Regardless, Parnassa, like everything else, is from Hashem, not from the profession you choose. I know many klei kodesh professionals who are managing just fine and, on the other hand, non-klei kodesh professionals including lawyers, who, unfortunately, are not doing all that well, financially.
I’ll respond to the first point first:
Even if you are a Rebbe, you are still mechuyav to maximize your earnings as to not take tzedaka (or less tzedaka) from the Klal (which would mean tutoring, working nights, etc., and would still not be enough if you start at 25K for a Rebbe (BH, our school does pay more)) I don’t know what the “Typical office white collar job” is. If you are dealing with someone who had a serious education (which is an issue in of itself), most of those working will make six figures (or close to it) within 10 years of starting, once again, assuming an education. I even know a number of OT/PT’s who make six figures. It’s not difficult, but you do have to work hard! If both spouses work, there should be enough to support a decent sized family.
Second point: I was Mekabel from my Rebbe, who got from his Rebbe, that Parnasah depends on what you do. Some one in Kollel can not expect Al Pi Teva to make six figures. When Hashem decides on Rosh Hashana how much someone will make, it is where they will land in the range of what they do. Whether the doctor will make 250K or 500K (if that is normal), or will be fired and make zero, or the secretary 15K or 20K. The secretary will not make 250K Al Pi Teva, but requires “extra help” which Hashem may brovide, but is not being given due to the normal course of hishtadlus. I know there are other shittos out there, but IMHO they make no sense to me based on the requirement of Hishtadlus that exists.
As such, if one plans on paying tuition, you can’t just shrug it off saying “no one else pays”, and you have to be “Roeh es Hanolad”, that tuition will come, and you have to decide at an early age what you will do about it.
Speak very softly, and make him an offer that he can’t refuse.
Want to know the real problem with this response?
Every paragraph ends with an exclamation point.
😉
Have an excellent Shabbos.
G@W
Feif Un -“Health, I disagree – most kollel guys COULD find jobs if they wanted to. When those who leave kollel to go work do so, most find jobs pretty quickly.”
I didn’t think you would agree! So you make up these statistics to go along with your beliefs, even though nothing you wrote is True!
“When I said “act like this”, I meant l’chatchilah taking money that is supposed to only be for a b’dieved.”
They only take it because it’s a B’dieved. Repeating your belief hundreds of time doesn’t make it True!
“If kollel guys didn’t take government money, and the system was the way it should be, maybe I’d be more inclined to support them.”
So they should starve while you Think about it? Good one!
“The way it is now is a joke (a very bad one), and I won’t support it.”
You wouldn’t support it – no matter what because you and other MO’s don’t believe in this way of life!
“You can argue the cause for what you do all you want, but don’t try to put the blame on other people. The blame lies squarely on those in the kollels.”
Actually I wasn’t arguing or blaming anyone. You came here cursing out Kollel guys and I defended them. So if you want to come here & blame s/o -blame the Jews who won’t support Torah for Kollel guys- so they end up having to take Gov. support!
“The fact is that people in kollel don’t know what it means to be moser nefesh to sit and learn. People then didn’t know where their next meal would come from. That is true mesiras nefesh, and it weeded out those who weren’t serious about their learning from those who were. I think we need to have this again, so we can see who the true learners are.”
Does anybody in the Goldene Medina know what Mesiras Nefesh is?
You have to live in the here & now, not in the Alte Heim!
Compared to the Jews like you in America -Kollel guys are much more Moser Nefesh in their lifestyle!
WIY: That sort of thing is blocked here, together with Utube, facebook, etc.
Is it like the old Napster, etc? Then a new one will just take its place. Give it a week.
I don’t believe people become a Rebbi with the goal of also receiving food stamps. If they can’t find a job that pays enough and they have to rely on programs like these to supplement their income to support their respective families, then that is unfortunate, even though it’s perfectly legal to do so, if qualified. But I do not at all believe it is lichatchila for them.
Ezehu Chacham HaRoeh Es HaNolad. In Yiddishkeit, there is a concept of Rov (as in the majority).
What is a Megaupload?
The big prize is the necessary structural changes. Hopefully one day that will happen.
That is what BPT, RC, myself & others are talking about. The big “structural change” is the Roshei Yeshiva getting the students to date younger, even though it may hurt their own bottom line.
May the time come B’Karov.
As far as Gateways, they have a program in which a shaddchan is assigned to a specific community (similar to an idea you also had, IIRC), and works on the girls in the community. It gives the older girls more attention they would not be getting otherwise (such as a face to face interview). It’s almost like your “list”, but instead of the girls paying in, the community pays in. Either way more specific attention is given to girls that would otherwise be left out.
Just proves Breslovers aren’t real Chassidim 🙂
That is seriously what I thought when the story was told to me. Breslovers are “Simcha”. They would never do what the RBS terrorists did.
Can you give me a reason for why i should follow my rebbe against the majority of the rishonim? (btw the Shulchan Aruch also paskens people should work)
It is a long Shmooze that has been discussed before here (and somehow never gets discussed in Yeshivos 🙂
Try this link:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/kollel-talmud-torah-kneged-kulam/page/3#post-109692
DY: I don’t know what happened to my response. Check out Gateways Connections.
AZ:
We have discussed this in previous threads. I thought NASI was also working towards getting boys to date younger?
Toi:
I will not comment directly. Nothing against you personally, but to protect myself from Avaira of Lashon Hara.
If you have a safek, ask your Rov what you should do. I was there when someone asked a talmid of R’ Aharon what R’ Aharon would have wanted.
HaKatan:
In all fairness, Eino Domeh. The doctor will eventually go off programs, and is working towards that goal. If the Kollel boy would eventually become a pulpit Rabbi, then the comparison is good. Most who stay in Klei Kodesh end up as Rabbaim who barely get paid (and never on time) or just remain in Kollel, but never going off the dole.
Toi: In all fairness, R’ Moshe ZTL was supposed to have argued with Rishonim in Igros (I don’t have a source offhand).
Of course, that is R’ Moshe, not little me.
No offense to anybody here, but how in the world does anybody know what R Ahron thought??
R’ Aharon was quoted as saying that Kollel men shouldn’t own cars (as it is in EY, BTW). Do you say that the quote is untrue?
No offense taken.
PBA: I would never be able to physically lift the pillow 🙂
I heard that Rav Aharon Kotler was opposed to yeshiva people having cars. I don’t know if he would say the same nowadays, but the point is clear.
Agreed. As I pointed out in other threads, R’ Aharon would be considered MO in the current system. A Gadol like Rav Lichtenstien for certain, but not Moetzes material. Too many shittos that conflict with the current “da’as Baal Habayis”.
L’maase though, that is what we see in the Yeshiva world. Chillul Hashem on a large scale. That just might be why “Yafeh Torah Em Derech Eretz”.
BTguy:
Thanks for getting back to me on this.
G@W
Might I suggest the Sugar Sand park?
longarekel: The problem is not the programs, but when you live the life of a welfare queen on them (Legally or not), such as collecting WIC while pushing your Bugaboo. That is a Chillul Hashem.
PBA: What did you do to my reply to Longrekel?
Just putting in an opposing view. As I have said before, I don’t have discussions here with some posters. It is bad for my health (no pun intended).
And since I’ve been here the gov. has gotten much stricter with their programs. They (the Feds) even changed the whole HUD/ Section 8 regulations because they didn’t like what some Frum Yidden were doing in Lakewood with those regs that were on the books. To me that is classic Antisemitism!
To most others it would be called a Chillul Hashem. You have your own reasons to call it otherwise (V’hamavin Yovin).
(IMHO) to discuss the issues of the day that are Nogaih the Yeshiva World.
Then again, I don’t post on most of the threads, so I am probably not the right peson to answer the question.
bpt:
We should be so lucky. It will not help the girls out there now, or for the next ten years, though.
Abelleh:
organically. Sorry for the spelling error.
Here, I disagree. Being the product and the patron of the “Yeshiva system” what I have heard is a critisism of the “outside world” (which is of course true) and nothing but praise for the life of learning (which is also true).
Where I think the “system” fails, is by letting the kids come to the conclusion, that its either / or. Pass or fail. Kosher or traif.
We, as adults, know that there is a time and place for everything. And under the right conditions, even things that are “off limits” under some circumstances, can become not just ok, but even something mandated.
So, its not that the kids are hearing no, never.
They are hearing, not now, not yet.
And that’s where we (as parents) step in and say, now is the time to be a grown up and do the things that grownups do.
And its not k’neged halacha or a goyish hashkafa. Its the way Yiddish homes are run.
I agree with almost all your points (I disagree why Yeshivos exist in the first place, and what their purpose is). Parents have to be involved.
However, too many parents are not strong enough (or agree) with the schools to create changes.
enlightenedjew: Dismantling the dating system might solve the problem, yes. So would the ancient method of “Organicly” making sure your future husband would propose (which is exactly what would happen in too many cases). You may as well suggest mixed high schools while you are at it. Have the head cheerleader “Organicly”, mentally and emotionally engage with the quarterback.
Unless you are not suggesting removing the shaddchan & parents from the process? Then please explain yourself.
If you look at what Rav Aharon Kutler intended for the original kollel, it was only a few year program for a smaller number of people.
R’ Aharon Kotler was obviously MO. Don’t you know R’ Kotler held of Rav YB Soloveichik? Who was the featured speaker at the first Chinuch Atzmai dinner (R’ Aharon’s project?)
As far as “yeshivish becoming MO” that does not fly with me, for 2 reasons:
# 1 – it implies that the MO are somehow “less” than us.
Not so. They are just following a different mehallech. Much like the shtramel / #70s crowd. Not better; just different.
# 2 – it implies that, to enter the workforce, you are by default “giving up something”. Again, not so. True, you need to be careful in the workforce, but by the same token, our boys need to be careful when they fly off for a year in EY. If you can trust them, you can trust them. As long as we are dilligent, and they know for whom they are truly working for and what they are working towards, we can build a true Ben Torah.
Once again, if the schools are teaching the opposite, then what your children will believe is what is taught, like it or not. Even if you manage to teach your child right, still 95% (if not more) will go with the flow, leaving us without a solution.
You and I actually agree on this one, but on a large scale it is not implementable without the Yeshivas & Beis Yaakovs. And they will never do it. Not until they don’t have a choice.
If the “admission ticket” to the dating arena means you need to be employable, you can be sure the boys will figure out a way to get in the game.
Gedolim will ban it, Bais Yaakovs will refuse to implement. Sems will teach the exact opposite (they already do). You may as well ask the Yeshivish to become MO.
What happened to “a spoonful of sugar”?
I think I’d date her
Move to be struck for promoting intermarriage. As per the rules:
has anyone other than the NASI Project done anything in a practical sense to alleviate the situation???
Gateways, in all fairness.
My solutions are practical and implementable. The problem just has to become worse before those with the power to implement them see the need to do so.
DY & RC: The yeshivos believe that the longer a boy is in Beis Medrash, the better. They will not suggest that thye boys get married earlier (Call it a conspiracy theory, if you will. I call it their interpetation of the Gemorah Keddushin.) 😉
The one solution that I have heard that could work would be selectivly extending “the freezer” for Lakewood boys, to extend the period for younger girls exclusivly. I don’t expect that to happen, though.
Presumption of innocence thrown out the window
It can be two people.
One does Talmud,
The other does Derech Eretz,
And they join as partners.
GAW, I have plenty of my own. But thank you for getting the point. It was something you said that inspired me.
Thanks. Next time you should make your theory somewhat more plausable. For example, Paul to separate Christianity, or TV to separate MO.
Besides, Roshei Yeshiva wouldn’t want more Kollel boys. They don’t pay anything in! 😉
I have extra aluminum foil hats 🙂
Seriously, the crisis predated NASI.