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GAW -“OK, why haven’t you done so?”
Oh – you got me here on this one. Now let me think -Ok I got it – because I don’t believe in a shotgun wedding.
Why not? Mitzva Ba’ah LYadcha Al T’Acher! Al Tomar Ephne V’Eshne Shema Lo Tipane!
“As long as their Rov tells them not to settle.”
Well if the Rov is telling them not to settle in their twenties -Ok. If the Rov is telling them not to settle in their thirties -Ok in very extenuating circumstances. If they hit 40 already, unless there are other issues besides settling, and the Rov still says not to settle, then IMHO he is Oiver L’fnei Michshol!
IMHO of a divorced guy vs. their own Rov. ’nuff said.
Depends on the cost of apartment, which depends on where you live. A couple in Ofakim will need much less than a couple in Arzei.
sushe: Of course. In reality, I don’t believe government should have anything to do with marriage at all. Perhaps for tax and other purposes individuals can form legal family units (similar to adoption).
Toi: Well said!
But we should not try to force anyone. I believe that if I want others to respect me, then I must also respect them. And as long as what they do isn’t against the law and as long as they don’t do it in public, I see no reason why I should care. It’s other people’s private business.
I do care. None the less, I won’t force the issue for the reasons you say.
gaw- but they turn it into much more. ayin shum, and what the rebbe said doesnt make it any easier to be dan likaf zchus.
Fair enough.
I personally had all these diseases when i was a kid, as did many of my cousins and siblings, and honestly, we are all totally fine, the only effects are a much stronger immune system bh.
If you had all of them and lived to tell the tale, you must have been one sickly child. You’re lucky you didn’t contract polio!
TY: Sorry, my response was blocked. Have an excellent day.
PBA:
The modern Poskim deal with these issues. I would not be so bold to say that I know the sugyos like they do.
The Chassidishe Gatesheader:
Gay marriage causes the fabric of the world to be perverted, just like at the time of the Mabul.
That being said, I otherwise agree, and I don’t think we should legislate the issue (for the reasons you mention), but work to bring awareness of the damage it causes.
don’t we say if you view doros harishonim as anashim then we are chamorim
Even Malachim make mistakes.
Toi: I’m not sure which of my points you are dealing with. I think you will agree Rav Kook was not a Masis U’madiach, should not be called named by puny us, and that Hertzel was in no way a “talmid” of Rav Kook.
Tora Yid: The Satmer Rov was just as much an extremist (if not more) and his views were just as much not accepted by the Olam as Rav Kook. In fact, there are many similarities between the two. The main difference may be the tone of the Satmer Rov’s Kanoius vs. the Ahavas Yisroel which the Gedolim of the time accused Rav Kook of having too much.
“IIRC you have mentioned you are divorced. Why do you not pick the first girl out there as well?”
And who says I wouldn’t????
OK, why haven’t you done so?
Sorry, I agree you could wait a little bit, but for how loooong? They are supposed to get married at 12. They wait to 18 for maturity. Some will wait for a college degree till 22 or a little older. That’s why I posted -“Nowadays that point would be sometime in their twenties.”
As long as their Rov tells them not to settle.
Da’as Torah is not that Gedolim can’t make a mistake, that is just silly, let alone Kefirah.
Da’as Torah is that the more one attaches themselves to Torah, the more their decisions become based on the Torah and not outside factors.
For example, Rav Moshe when saying IVF is Muttar brought in “Da’as Torah”. He felt that others that were saying that IVF is Assur were not speaking from Torah values, but their own personal biases (even though they may have been Tamidei Chachomim as well). Rav Moshe was saying that the Halacha that he paskened was only based on Torah and not external factors like such biases.
ZeesKite: Those who are in Kollel because it is popular ruin it for everyone else. That is what you see here, how the “sitters” and “kollel bochrim” cause Sinah for Lomdei Torah (and it is something that will have to be answered for).
Toi:
Hiskashrus is a general Chassidish concept. Just because the others downplay it doesn’t mean they don’t also believe. Furthermore, it is seeping into the Litvish world as well.
GAW, Kook’s kookery – being maspid Hertzel(!) – directly led to Avi’s tragicomic thinking. This makes him either a maisis, or, as Rabbi Wein (no kanoi by any stretch) describes him, “a gentle but confused soul.” Which is the best you can say about him.
1: All the Gedolim mentioned earlier in the thread would not say bad things about Rav Kook. Who are you compared to the Gedolim?!
2: Would you say the same about ???????? ??? ???? ? How about ?????? ?? ?????? The Lubavitcher Rebbe? R’ Akiva? (Re: Bar Kochba) How about the Satmer Rov R’ Yoel (re: A vs. Z & the violence in Beis Shemesh)?
3: A Mesis is a very strong term and has a halachic definition. This is not it.
I mostly agree with AinOhdMilvado, but will add one point. Hertzel was no different than any Sar, and Lev Melachim V’Sarim B’yad Hashem. He must have had some sort of Zechus to help give birth to such a Machazik Torah like the Medinah.
msseeker: In all fairness, it is a direct quote of a Gemorah.
????? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ????????
Parnes does not mean Gadol, Talmid Chacham, or even someone who is a Shomer Torah U’Mitzvos (unless you have a Rishon that explains otherwise. I’m just reading Pashtus of the Gemorah).
I don’t like it either, but it seems to be the truth.
ZeesKite: How about something controversial? You must have misread the thread title.
I have gotten huge flak for several of my opinions, though I think they are all correct. I think that all music is Assur, that it’s absolutely Assur to dance on Shabbos (voicing that opinion in Meah Sh’arim once got me an extreme verbal berating by a Chossid), and that 3 women who eat together should always make a Mezuman unless they have a very good reason not to. Should I say more?
All three are normative Halacha according to most shittos and not controversial.
I guess mine would be either that parents should pair their children up/let them date at 16 or younger, support them , and make them use BC until they are ready/mature to start a family. Barring that, girls should live their lives not looking/waiting to get married, and if it happens, then great. If not, also great. Both are based off Gemaros in Keddushin.
msseeker: When we say “Yiftach B’Doro”, at least he was Yiftach. He wasn’t Joe on the street, and he certainly wasn’t a Masis like the leaders of the Reform. Rav Kook is more similar to other Gedolim of their time of whom Klal Yisroel did not Pasken like them, such as Bais Shammai, the Ibn Ezra, R’ Meir, etc.
Why dont women get to play in the nfl?!
They are allowed to do so. I Guess no one is good enough yet, but it probably will happen sooner or later.
GAW,
Skipping E.Y. Marrying earlier would be the likely, and probably intended, result. Kodshim is my guess.
Lets see.
I have heard that there are one or two big R”Y who would like to implement such a plan
Kodshim or marrying earlier?
You can’t be serious – issur every time!
That assumes they are doing the act that is assur. Bad assumption at the age 70.
GAW: This is obviously a “Geder” that the application of has caused serious problems.
Who says? Those who created them? Has Gur, Satmer etc. come out against it? Perhaps they feel that none the less the geder is worthwhile.
msseeker:
The Bach, Bais Shammai, the Ibn Ezra, etc. should be the list. 😉 All people who we basically never pasken or hold of, but are somebodies. The question is not why do you not choose someone who is not even Yiftach!
I don’t think mandating men and women to sit apart is called Seichel. I do think that people realizing their own issues and avoiding them is called Seichel.
What happened to Gedarim?
What Mitzva does a regular girl have which would be in opposition to the Chiyuv of getting married?
Waiting for the right one.
IIRC you have mentioned you are divorced. Why do you not pick the first girl out there as well?
If this person is Frum -then they have to get married whether they want to or not. It’s a Halacha. If they aren’t Frum -so who cares?
I hope you practice what you preach, even if it isn’t totally correct halachicly. She can wait for the right one, like Benos Tzelafchad (who were praised for not marrying less than 40, since their motives were good). If she says she never wants to get married and means it, that would be an issue.
Smart Lady. Wait until the right one comes along, and then you will want to marry him.
Take it from someone who married young, married someone within 2 years of his age, and has decades of successful anniversaries to show for it. Know why? Becuase we WORKED towards our success, as opposed to being handed a monthly stipend.
Amen, brother!
I’ll defend the guy eating the ham sandwich.
“When war does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the scabbard.”
En Garde!
One final feeling. Don’t reject my daughter in shiduchim because she comes form a home with no extra resources.
May the Ribbono Shel Olam deal with you Shelo K’derech Teva and give you this Neis.
???? ??? ? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ? ????? ??????? ??? ?????
Quaker?
in the Tznius book it brings down r shmuel wosner shlit’a
Not an American Posek. Thanks for the info, but not applicable to the OP (unless the OP lives in Israel).
Uneeq, “ma’ase eretz Mitsraim” is a z’nus-related issur. All the applications of it have to do with inter-gender relations.The posuk itself is mentioned in the parsha of arayos. It not the same as thinking of eating treif. I am not sure that it would fall under “lo sasuru…”. For sure, it is not nice.
Lo Sasuru is a much more general Issur, not to do things or think of things that are “Taa’vadik”. You should see the Chinuch on this, its almost saying addiction to any Ta’anug is the Avairah!
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=37518&st=&pgnum=48
zahavasdad: yes He told me, and He told you too. Vehiskadishtem, Veheyisem Kedoshim, Kedoshim Tihyu, Viheyisem Li Kedoshim, repeated many times. Hashem Oheiv Tzadikim(tehillim 146). If others hate the beautiful ways of the torah it is their problem, and Hashem hates them for it. Do you want proofs for this too?
It’s right because it is right!
Now go become a monk and practice full “Kedusha”.
Please tell me you did not just say that. You view people who are trying to live their lives by themselves as a “museum” which you go to watch and gawk at?
Museum was the term used by others (see R’ Dovid Landesman’s recent comment on CC). To a large extent, that is exactly what the Charaidim want.
Yes, but the people who use those bus lines overwhelmingly want it.
The purpose of law is to protect the minority from the majority. If someone wants to sit mixed, there is no reason why the state can or should enforce separation. (Of course, on a private bus, the owner can do what they want, to the most extent). To have it enforced by violence or the threat thereof is what would be called assault in the USA.
Popa’s got it right as usual.
It really is quite simple – it shouldn’t need a Popa IQ to get it.
It does frustrate me why people cannot understand.
G@W’s got it right as usual.
It really is quite simple – it shouldn’t need a G@W IQ to get it.
It does frustrate me why people cannot understand.
Three states for three peoples (Arab, Charaidi & Jewish).
Vote for me! 🙂
abcd2: On of the perks of being a Rebbe is that you don’t work certain times (such as the summer). In all fairness, they do get paid less because of it.
PBA:
My understanding is that the buses are replacing other buses that would otherwise not be Gender specific. There were non Mehadrin bus lines (and still are) that go to these city pairs. If the mehadrin bus is the next one leaving, why should anyone be forced to wait?
BB 100a: ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ???
If only you were right and Charaidim and non Charaidim had no interaction whatsoever, both sides would be happier.
PBA: I checked if JTS has a “year in Israel” program post high school and couldn’t find it.
It is strange when we think alike. Maybe its our appreciation for satire.
The very idea that taxpayers aren’t willing to pay for buses if it is done in a way which accommodates chareidim, is highly bigoted.
Separation between Church and State. Maybe the Israelis are waking up that it might be a good idea.
APY: Normally, the party would have been on Sunday (in my case, as was in previous years), but they moved it to a weekday.
Midreshet Lindenbaum
BJJ
Hadar?
I would include Michlalah, but it is a college, not a seminary.
🙂
I had a similar issue/problem. I inquired, and there was a very good reason why they did what they did, which I agreed with (and was unable to attend the party). Did you ask the Yeshiva why the party is on a weekday?
Gaw- im not sure how familiar you are with the transportation system in yerushalayim, but the bus isnt an occasional expenditure, its a neccesity for daily life, and, as such, cant be compared to a big mac. Boycotts will not work because there is simply no alternative- its not like refusing to by a braun- its like telling you not to shave ever again! (my apologies if you have a beard-you still get the point)
Way back when, I used to use my feet to go from place to place (I still do sometimes). Unless they are going to the Mall (which real Charaidim don’t go to), and assuming there is food shopping in all neighborhoods (which there is), then a boycott is a viable alternative. It’s not as if they need the bus to get to work, and there is the “Mir” bus for those who need to get to Kollel.
And I thought you would be discussing flies.
(thanks for the accommandation!)
No problem 🙂
Fact: those Mehadrin bus lines that are still private, like Beth Shemesh, Beitar etc. are also being challenged by the frum hating activists,
Get security to remove them by force. That is why they are Private, no? Only certain people may use following the rules of the company.