Forum Replies Created
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Abelleh -“If you think they don’t, could you list the reasons why they say not to?”
How about you reading these – “Vayoel Moshe” and “Al HaGeuloh VeAl HaTmuroh” and you will know the reasons.
Avi K -“Health,
1. Again I dispute oyur contention that most gedolim disagreed with Rav Kook.”
I’m sorry that simply isn’t the fact, no matter how many times you repeat it!
“2. Virtually all gedolim today hold that one should vote.”
I already explained this -there is no specific Mitzva to vote, just a general Mitzva to support Yeshivos!
Sam2 -“Health: I was disputing your point that we always Pasken like the Rov, not what happens in this particular case.”
I never said “always”; don’t put words in my mouth!
“Also, there was not a formal vote against Rav Kook of all the Halachic decisors like in the time of Beis Shammai and Beis Hillel.”
There was no vote but they specifically said you shouldn’t listen to him!
Avi K -“Health, yes almost every gadol – with the exceptions of all those who supported him.”
We have to listen to most Gedolim and Not listen to minority Shittos.
“If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem. If you do not vote you are in effect voting for more secularism.”
Voting will Not change the Israeli gov. in our day & age!
Abelleh -“My question was really now that the medina is established (which it definitely is), how can you say we SHOULDN’T support it? “
Gedolim said you shouldn’t support it -that’s how!
MDG -“Besides which, although I don’t know that much, I don’t think that the principle of “Ain Sofek Yotzay Meday Vaday” applies to attitudes/hashkafa.”
And why NOT? You don’t change things unless you know they will be better. That’s why we didn’t ask Hashem to get rid of Achashveyrosh because we didn’t know if the next king would be better! (This just illustrates the point, not necessarily about attitudes/hashkafa.)
Sam2 -He was a Heimishe Poisek and a contemporary to R’ Moshe zt’l. He lived in BP. He wrote Shaalos OoTeshuvos “Baer Moshe”. Whether you think it’s Ossur or not, he is s/o you can be Somieach on! Ask your Rabbi (R. Schacter?) about him.
GAW -“Plain and simply put, votes equal money for yeshivos and Aniyim in the Charadi community.”
Exactly they say it’s a Mitzva to support Yeshivos. There are other ways to support Yeshivos other than voting. So there is no Chiyuv to vote, no matter what you say!
Sam2 -“Health: Because the Tannaim actually had a formal vote and decided to Pasken that way.”
The same thing – almost every Godol said you can’t listen to Rav Kook!
Sam2 -“Health: I don’t think I want to know the answer, but how do you use your money to fight the “Tzionim”?”
By posting here. It costs money for the internet service plus electricity costs and wear & tear on the computer. 😉
hello99, DY -“Achiezer, and pretty much universally accepted since. Vadai and not Safek.”
Yes, I concede -I downloaded it -he does say this. I don’t understand -why, but that is their Psak.
“Health: a crock pot has a heating element that glows red hot and is certainly an Issur d’Oraisa. Therefore, there is no Heter whatsoever to tell a Goy to turn it on.”
See what happenned here is that I’m not a Poisek and you armchair, internet Poiskim were able to Drey me a Kop -so I went in the wrong direction.
The Poskim seem to hold electricity is D’oraysa.
Debrecener Rov zt’l says “You can tell a Goy to turn on a bathroom light”. And he gives quite a few examples of Ameira L’Acum is Mutter L’Tzorech Godol, not just this.
So Ameira L’Acum is Mutter even on a D’oraysa for Tzorech Godol!
So the same would be for a crock pot. You got your cholent in there and it’s your main course -you can have the Goy turn it on for you!
If I’m Chumra shopping -I know your # – 1-800-hello99, until then I’ll use Goyim to turn on crock pots or flames!
Sam2 -“Health: Sorry if I was just unclear. Rav Chaim Ozer used to make Havdalah on electric lights. I think that means he feels it’s a Vaday Aish.”
The Debrecener Rov zt’l says that it’s only if you don’t have fire. Also it must be a clear, incandescent bulb, nothing else!
Sam2 -Ain Sofek Yotzay Meday Vaday! If I change I might be even more unhappier than I am now!
OOmis -Since you think I’m immature -I’d be perfect for your kid!
Only maturity age should matter!
rabbiofberlin -“”Bekisso,bekaaso,bekosso…..” health- you qualify for all three…”
And I B’H use all these L’shem Shomayim to be Loichem against the Tzionim!
mdd -“Health, you got to first learn all the deyos, and then say things. It looks from your posts as if amost all Gedolim held like Satmar — it is not true.”
I know all their Deyos -they keep repeating them a thousand times. My posts are my Deyos -so don’t read into things I didn’t say!
MDG -“Health, I don’t being alienated and lonely makes you happy. Does it? If not please change; we want to see you happy.”
Why will I become happy if I change?
Avi K -“As most rabbanim support some political party they obviously hold that it is a mitzva to vote.”
Yea, they want you to vote for their party, but where in the world did it become a Mitzva or a Chiyuv? Don’t mix up politics with Halacha!
Sam2 -“Health: That’s just not true. In theory we might always Pasken like the Rov, but in reality counting a simple majority of Poskim is not how we determine Halachah.”
No? -so why do we Pasken like Bais Hillel over Bais Shammai?
Anyway – almost every Godol said you can’t listen to Rav Kook!
ARWSF -“Maybe they ought to do therapy for people. Hypnotize them or something or call this a syndrome.”
Sorry they already have a name for this syndrome -it’s called immaturity!
mdd -“Health, here you go again. Get it through your head: the Satmar and Brisk shittos are not the only ones on the topic, nor are they the majority either.”
Get it through your head -I’m not here in the CR to post your opinions. I’m here to post my opinions whether some people, all people or no people agree! Got it?
Josh31 -“This anti-zionism you preach is not going to bring a single Jew back to Torah and mitzvos. In fact any one involved in Kiruv knows not to say anything that may be construed to be anti-zionism.”
News flash Josh -I don’t do Kiruv or work for a Kiruv org.
I’m here to spread the light. And that is that Zionism is Treif!
Comprende?
Avi K-
1. Except for weird circumstances we always Pasken like the Rov!
2. Naarishe question. Noone in the world holds there is a Chiyuv to vote. Even in the good ole USA – voting is a privilege, not a requirement!
This I found on JEMS forum, but it would apply to any provider:
I understand what they mean, but after reading a lot of the posts there and the different opinions/disagreements it might be better to think to yourself Stable or not? Since we have some nurses here (not me), I’ll give an example using a nurse, even though I have a few different areas where I have degrees -never got a nursing degree, but I considered it more than once.
Btw, I’m just making this up as I go along. Anyway the head nurse sends you over to assess Mary who was just brought in complaining of you name it -everything & anything. You walk over and as soon as you open the curtain Mary sits straight -bolt up and says “I can’t believe the service in this hospital. Do you know how long I’ve been waiting here?”
Stable or Not? (Sick or not?)
Also, what’s the next step?
#2. The head nurse sends you over to assess Gertrude who was making a nusiance of herself in the nursing home and they got tired of her and shipped her to your ER (or ED for those who like to be technically correct). You open the curtain and Gertrude is lying there and you hear gurgling every couple of seconds.
Stable or Not?
Also, what’s the next step?
2scents -“Care is the right word.
I have seen lots of nurses that simply don’t care. And some that do. The difference is huge.
The same goes with first responders. Those that deliver excellent patient care, and those that make the patient feel miserable.”
And I’ve seen it from every type of medical practioner -from 1st responders to EMT’s to Medics to Lpn’s to RN’s to NP’s to PA’s to Doc’s and anything in between.
One group that you hardly find this incompetence by is these guys who take a real First Aid course like in college. I was already a medical professional, not what I am now, but I needed credits so I took a First Aid course in community college. Of course I didn’t tell them my level and that I’ve taken First Aid since 9th grade. I thought it would be a breeze, but it wasn’t that easy, esp. when you haven’t practiced these skills in years, if ever. But these guys & gals the way they dedicated themselves to learning everything would put a lot of professional providers to shame.
And I’m not joking.
If I happen to come on the scene of a sudden illness or injury I’d rather have these guys helping me out. Almost all the time I’ve dealt with the EMS whose territory it was -they were the most interested in running the show and kicking everybody else away. The very last thing on their mind was good pt. care! It seems like the more Gaavah they have -the less medicine they practice!
Says me- “haven’t found chewable prenatals yet.”
And why can’t you take chewable children’s vitamins? Take what you need to get the prenatal dose.
Abelleh -“The Ramban counts having a Medina as a mitzvah (mitvos shehaRambam Shechach — Mitzvah 4). There’s a machlokes whether it is a mitzvah or not. That probably means you should do it!!!”
Ok -kick the Tzionim out and start a Medina acc. to Halacha. Let’s see how far you get. I’m sure it’s easier to hand it over to the Turks -than to make a revolution!
Sam2 -“There are many types of Kofrim, and sometimes we have to relate to some of them differently.”
I thought I was pretty clear -Tzionim are Kofrim B’ikkar -so this is the worst type and Kofrim B’ikkar are at least as bad as Ovdei AZ!
2scents – Some people never master it because they don’t care. I think there are books that are written on this -I think one is called “Sick /Not Sick”. I never read it though. I just think some people have a second sense when it comes to medicine – they learn how to read patients. I see a lot of practioners when they get called to a scene (EMS) or an ER for an emergency and the pt. is unconscious and then they go through ya know the ABC’s and go down the protocol -they think they are practicing medicine and are the best thing since sliced bread. I don’t consider this the practice of medicine.
This is what I consider practicing medicine and this story is Not meant to put down any type of practioner more than the next. I’ve seen lack of good care all across the spectrum. One of my rotations was in Geriatrics and I wanted something more challenging that just a regular Nursing Home floor. So I hooked up to the Vent floor. A lot of patients to say the least aren’t with it and they spend their life unconscious attached to a vent. The nurses do vitals I think 3 times a day. Now for these type of pts. the care can be very monotonous. As the student I got dumped with most of the routine paperwork. So I was doing the paperwork on this pt. and even though you do patient assessment on every pt. that you do this routine paperwork on – you basically don’t get any info. They don’t respond to anything and physical exam is usually Not Remakable. So I was holding by the putting down the vitals of this pt. and I asked the nurse for the vitals. The nurse gave me the notes and I noticed that she had recorded a slight fever. Since I don’t know the pts. I checked to see if this pt. has had fever before and this isn’t something new. But lo & behold this was a new onset -so I got the Resident and we did a septic workup. What I didn’t understand was why didn’t the nurse mention something to either me or to the Resident (it was usually a NP in charge of the floor but she was off that day)? Alerting the Staff to even a minute change is called practicing medicine. Watching s/o keel over and doing some protocol is just monkey skills!
Josh31 -“Many, including me had their emunah (belief in HaShem) strengthened by the six day war victory. For them reading something that may weaken their emunah is probably prohibited.”
I really don’t get your post -why would your Emunah be weakened?
Actually you are bringing up an interesting point. I don’t remember but they say a lot of Freye/Chilonim started believing in Hashem because of what happenned then. But by & far it didn’t last. If the Tzionim aren’t the Reshayim that I think they are, why wouldn’t such an impression last? How could they go back to “Koach V’ozem Yodi” after that? It’s beyond my comprehension!
Avi K – How about you reading these – “Vayoel Moshe” and “Al HaGeuloh VeAl HaTmuroh”?
Avi K -“1. On the contrary, they take and take and take. Some then bite the hand that feeds them and defame the Medina.”
I just answered this in the topic of “Taking Traif Money”.
“2. The Turks? Erdogan? You really are living in never, never land. As for the Kotel, Arab houses were right up against it leaving almost no room for daveners. The Medina razed the houses and built a nice plaza.”
This post made me laugh. Upto very recently the Turks were friends with the Jews! You are living in never, never Tzioni land!
And I really want to thank the Tzionim for razing those houses -now they have even another thing to hate us for!
yichusdik -“OK, mods, I’ll put it another way, without accusation. How can anyone see the manner in which HKBH has acted and used and blessed not just am yisroel but the world through the State of Israel and still consider it the wellspring of evil it has been accused of being here?”
And these blessings would have been ten-fold if the Tzionim didn’t make a Medina! There is nothing good about this Medina!
This topic was already addressed to AOM in a different thread. Just like you are allowed to have business dealings with Goyim/Ovdei Kochavim so too with the Medina. And I agree that people shouldn’t take handouts from the Tzionim, but there are plenty of Gedolim who said you could. So you don’t have to follow the Shitta of the Gedolim who said you can’t!
aidel_maidel -“I need to take vitamins”
Hey they actually make chewable vitamins!
Avi K -“Health, you are so blinded by your hatred for the Medina that you defend terrorists.”
I haven’t defended “terrorists”! As a matter of fact, I don’t care too much about this Sikrikim group and I don’t condone their actions. But I believe in democracy & justice and e/o is innocent until Proven guilty, even groups you don’t like. He was Not Proven guilty in the Israeli court! They found him guilty because of the store owner’s word. Not only was it one word against the other, the accused had many witnesses for his side.
So this is a Miscarriage of Justice. It’s a bloody shame that people who supposedly live by the Torah or even those that don’t but supposedly live by democracy, defend this outrageous behavior from the dictatorship that we have in Israel!
moi aussi -“If you don’t change your attitude Mr Health (is it Dr? Prof? Rabbi?), you will alienate your family and friends, and you will be a very lonely person.”
I already am; so give me another reason to change.
Avi K -“As for being based on kefira, Rav Kook implored frum Jews to make aliya and join the Zionist movement so that the future state would be 100% based on Tora but they did not listen and still are not – in fact, many who do make aliya do not become citizens but stay on “student” or “tourist” visas or only become “permanent residents”. The fault for shortcomings lies squarely on their shoulders.”
Yes, they did Not listen to him and they don’t want to become citizens because almost all the Gedolim didn’t hold that Rav Kook was right. So we go after the Rov in Halacha. How come you don’t??
Nechomah -“You’re right Health, and I probably didn’t say it correctly. I think it’s that she’s afraid of the possibility of infection and the pain that is involved. She suffered a lot when she had her previous surgery and infection.”
Yes, I’ve met people scared of the knife before they even had one surgery. But all who went through with it were happier in the long run. I understand her concern, but she should do what the experts say. If they recommend surgery -I’m sure she can find a reliable surgeon. Because she got burnt once, doesn’t mean it will happen again. The funny thing is -in my career I’ve met many orthos and most are competent. Very few are incompetent. While in other areas I’ve found a lot more incompetent practioners. Primary care is where I’ve found the most incompetence. (Eg. Internists, pediatrics, etc.) But hardly anyone doubts THEIR Doctor, but always suspects the Specialist or Surgeon!
Sam2 -“Health: Rav Chaim Ozer did.”
Could you please copy & paste? It takes way too long for me to download from the Hebrewbooks.org.
Sam2 -“Why? You need to prove to me that they are worse.”
Once again, I don’t need to prove they are worse. I proved that they are at least the same. So whatever you can do to one -you can do to the other!
Avi K -“1. The Medina through its various organs, including the IDF, supports Tora instituions and learners. It even supports those who are not exactly learning full-time. If not for this they would have to (gasp) work for a living.”
False! Many Yeshivos right now (gasp) don’t take money from the Medina and they survive just fine!
“3. Do you really think that the UN would support Tora? Anyway, the Jordanians occupied Yehuda veShomron and Yerushalayim in nay case and would still be in control. Don’t forget, the Arabs rejected the partition plan that included internationization. The Kotel would be inaccessible and Jews would not be allowed to set foot in the Old City.”
The Turks should be running Palestine and you wouldn’t have all these problems! The UN can’t run itself, let alone another country. Jordan only took the West Bank & the Kosel because the Tzionim decided to start up with the Goyim. Before that they allowed Jews to visit the Kosel!
realist4u -“There are many incredible things about this state from the jewish perspective.”
Incredible -Yes, but not good!
“Point or no point, would there be this much torah and as many gedolei torah in EY had it not become a jewish state? Would we be able to visit the kossel?”
There would be more Torah and possibly Moshiach would be here by now! Jews were allowed to visit the Kosel before the existence of the State!
Sam2 -“Health: It is very hard to say that a Kopher B’dikduk Echad Midivrei Sofrim has the same status as an Oved Avodah Zarah. He may have no Chelek in Olam Habah, but he’s not an Oved Avodah Zarah.”
I didn’t say he was -I said since AZ is a type of Kefira -whatever you can do to an AZ guy -you can do to a Koifer B’Ikkar. Stop making out that Kofrim are better than people who are Oiver AZ!!!
Nechomah -“Now she is told that she cannot have total knee replacement because of the risk of infection.”
She needs a second or even a third opinion!
Sam2 -“Health: The Achiezer is accepted as a Vada’us. Many even make a “Borei Morei Ha’eish” over an incandescent bulb on Motza’ei Shabbos.”
1. Does he use the word Vaday? If he doesn’t – how do you know he means Vaday?
2. If they make a Beracha on it -that’s their problem. I wouldn’t!
hello99 -“mods: why is Health allowed to continue this behavior???”
DaasYochid -“Health,
I wasn’t referring to your kaas in that thread, I was referring to your kaas in this one – your completely unjustified attack on hello99.”
What short memories you two seem to have. If I remember correctly the nastiness on this thread started when s/o said all I like to do is fight!
Avi K -“Health, I will call Rav Kook, Rav Tzvi Yehuda, Rav Meir Simcha of Dvinsk, the Netziv, Rav Arye Levin, Rav Soloveichik, Rav Kalisher, Rav Yehuda Alkelai, the Gra and the Chaatm Sofer to testify on my behalf.”
Sorry to tell you – half of those you mentioned never or would never support a Medina based on Kefira. And they will be the first to come testify against you for twisting their words!
Avi K -“From the thread on smoking:
Health says:
When someone here decides to give me a check or cash. I have no professional responsibilty to anyone here. I’m free here to state my own opinions, whether others agree with me or not!
So am I.”
Yes -you do have Bechira in this world, but you will have to answer (after 120) for all your defending of Kefira (Medina) that you posted here!