Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
old man – C’mon -of course you have to have intent, but what is their intent? Why is one dress nicer than another? Why is a nose ring nicer than not having one? The only answer I can come up with is they want to be “In Style”. So whose style? These styles are started by the Goyim and they want to have the same styles. This to me is exactly what the Chochmas Odom says is Ossur.
Shaitles are a different ball game. I’m not going into the Maclokes nowadays about Shaitles, just talking about the Inyan Noigeah OOvchukosayhem. Shaitles first started in the Frum community when they looked like a Shaitle. So the Etzem Issur of OOvchukosayhem doesn’t apply. They didn’t want to copy the Goyim -they just didn’t want to wear a Tichel. The fact that they started making them stylish is just making something stylish that is already part of the Jewish world -it’s not now a Goyishe thing.
But as far as wearing these long -haired beautiful Shaitles as opposed to just nice custom or Human hair ones, I think would be Ossur because of Pritzus, not because of OOvchukosayhem.
yid.period -“…. and to think, I never knew “liberal pressure” was justification for compromising halacha and Torah standards!
If anything I would say YU condemning the event that unintentionally was perceived as supporting toeivah and instituting new policies to ensure events like that would not happen again, is much more within normative halacha and daas Torah than reinstating an official group/ club explicitly supporting toevah (alliance… etc), even if it was because of political pressure. (I’m not intending to knock Touro, only point out how this whole discussion is perpetuated by silly comments and double standards)”
Of course you are trying to knock Touro, because R. Dr. Lander came from YU and did what YU has been trying to do for a hunderd years -namely have a Jewish institution that you can get a college degree with. The only difference is Touro follows Halacha!
Do all you YU guys think you are Poiskim? If you read what I posted -you would have seen some of these “libs” were gov. agencies. They wouldn’t have let it go. So maybe Touro decided or they asked a Shaila before they did what they did. The Shaila probably was either close down the whole TU or give into these bodies demanding funding for the Toevaniks. I guess the answer was they weren’t Mechyav to lose millions of dollars just so they wouldn’t have to support some Toevaniks as long as the world knows (which they do -not like YU – were they think YU is Pro -Toevaniks) this was basically against their will. This would be called an Oiness acc. to the Torah.
As far as YU -Yes – you can do Teshuva on the massive Chillul Hashem and Pritzus & Nivel Peh B’rabim (in public) that their Toeva Forum caused. But Is it a real Teshuva? They planned this themselves from the begining – there was no pressure from any gov. or any other group to do it -it was all their own idea. And after they got negative press from the world of people who are anti-Toeva – they retracted. So if they did it for this reason -that they had gotten bad PR because of it, instead of because it was the wrong thing to do -this isn’t called Teshuva.
I’m not just saying this to knock YU, (like you say about Touro), but a pattern emerges -they do things wrong and then they say – Sorry -Chotosy, we didn’t mean it. Like with the Beacon articles. So if they keep doing things wrong and everytime the Frum world explodes about it and only then do they regret it -this smells (Shmect) of a Not proper Teshuva and a lack of Yiras Shomayim!
optimusprime and SAm – When you learnt in YU did you learn the terms Maizid and Oiness? I’m hoping you did.
Touro is an Oiness for supporting them. YU with their Toeva Forum is a Maizid or the very least a Shogegg. So there is no double standard -one is Ossur and one isn’t!
Shvartza Wolf -“First: Let us assume I have no proof whatsoever. Why should your unproven claim be believed more than mine?”
It shouldn’t – because it was my opinion, not an Affadavit. If you call s/o a liar -Oh excuse me – s/o who told a lie on a post -you have to prove it or you sound like an idiot.
“Second: “Rabbi, Dr. Lander A’H, is the one whom instituted all policies in any Touro school. These are all acc. to Halacha.”
“What you think he [Dr. Lander] okayed it? Secondly, even if he did, does that mean he knew what he was going to speak on?
I said policies, not speeches.”
“According to you his policy was to allow speeches about any topics?”
I’m sure not.
“I’m going to repeat again that what was discussed on the first page of this thread was not motzi shem ra.”
I’ll repeat it again -using the actions of few bad apples to put down a whole school is Motzay Shem Ra. Why don’t you ask one of your Rabbi/Drs. in YU? I’m sure at least one of them learnt Chofetz Chaim.
“He did and thats “a fact, not an insult”!”
“I know I asked you earlier in this post to substantiate this claim, but it’s coming up again so: How do you know this?”
Because I went to their school and all the people who work there said so.
“By the way, why did you refer to Rabbi Tendler as “Professor” Tendler?”
Why? I thought he was a professor of Biology in YU.
“Also, it’s interesting that you think that one quote from somebody whose work is widely-available and can be found online indicates that somebody is a student in his university.”
You see that’s another problem with you YU guys -you think the world surrounds you. I never knew that his “work is widely-available and can be found online”. Only a YU guy would know this.
“(I don’t mean to attack you, at least in this paragraph. I’m just wondering)If I quoted, say, Rabbi Belsky, would you assume I learned at Torah Vodaath? If I quoted Rav Elyashiv, would you assume I learned with him?”
No, but Professor Tendler is not that well known, at least not in the Yeshivishe circles.
“”3. Why do you think I am bitter at Touro?”
Safe to say – because why else do you feel the need to keep putting them down?!?”
“I think if you were to read the various things I’ve written in this thread, you’d see that I don’t keep putting Touro down. I get irked, at times, when people speak inaccurately and feel the need to correct misconceptions.”
And your doing an excellent job at that. It appears the more you post – the more your school YU looks bad.
“I’m not a halachist, so I might be wrong, but I don’t think that any of your examples of “sanctioned violations of Halacha” are actually violations of halacha.”
Ok, Nivel Peh, promoting the Toevah lifestyle – even B’shogeg, Chillul Hashem are not “actually violations of halacha”! Whatever you say -it’s fine by me!
“And, with regard to your third example, even if it is against halacha, blaming an institution for the misdeeds of one person seems remarkably unfair.”
Boo hoo, it’s “unfair”. Sorry, you as a student don’t represent the school, but the CEO/President unfortunately does and that’s what he said. Deal with it!
optimusprime -“I think its funny how you make a blatant statement like that without considering that Touro College has something very similar. Its called the Touro University Gay-Straight Alliance (you can see more on it on Wikipedia or other websites.) Seems like YU being singled out about this is not exactly fair.”
Maybe the Mods should close this topic because you YU guys are racking up the Aveiros. Another piece of Motzay Shem Ra. The libs threatened them -they had no choice.
Maybe if Orthodox institutions, like YU, would show the Goyim what we really hold about Toevaniks, the conservatives and/or religious people in this country would vote out these libs from office and we wouldn’t be held hostage to these lowlifes! We wouldn’t have to live in fear of not being PC! Because of YU, the Goyim don’t think we are unified in our stand against the Toevaniks! (And others who voted for the likes of Cuomo.)
This is from a website that talks about Touro University:
“In September of 2006, Touro University was criticized for revoking the charter of the schools LGBT student group, the Touro University Gay-Straight Alliance.[5][6] Under pressure from the San Francisco Board of Supervisors[7], the Vallejo City Council, the Gay and Lesbian Medical Association[8], and the American Medical Student Association[9] the school quickly reversed its decision and restored the group’s funding.[10]”
Like I said – you can count on me to Not do a thing!
Aries – After all the topics here about our school system, it seems that the system is really messed up!
Where are the Rabbonim? Some know that we are on the net and are screaming about it, but how come they don’t know what’s going on in the Chinuch world?!?!?
OneOfMany -“It’s not a matter of quid pro quo.”
What does this mean for the non-lawyers here?
“According to the Jewish concept of chesed, the chesed-doer is NOT supposed to treat the recipient like a ‘beggar.'”
Even if the Torah proscribed to the belief of “beggars can’t be choosey”, it still would be against the Torah for them to come late. Why? Because it’s Ossur to be dishonest -if you say you will be somewhere at a certain time -you must be there, give or take a few, barring some emergency (Oiness)!
Aries – It could be that you’re right. The practioner has Rachmonus (mercy) on the family and bends the rules, even though he/she knows that the kid doesn’t have ADHD.
Shvartza Wolf -“Health: I guess you have the right to be insulted by whatever you want, but the facts remain: I didn’t call you a liar, I said you lied. (Yes, there is a difference.) And, that’s not an insult; it’s a fact.”
Enough with your so-called facts. Do you have any proof I lied? Basically – put up or shut up!
“You’ve claimed around a dozen times on this thread (by my estimate) that people have said motzi shem ra (in the thread) about Touro. I searched through this thread (when I condemned you for lying) and I couldn’t find one instance of this. Ergo, I’m convinced that you lied.”
It’s in the first page of this topic and I’m not going to repeat it here for you. Didn’t YU teach you to read every word?
“With regard to the second lie you said, it’s false that Dr. Lander “instituted all policies in any Touro school.”
He did and thats “a fact, not an insult”!
“Also, I’ve got a few questions for you?
1. Why do you think I have ga’ava?”
Because your posts are full of Gaivah.
“2. Why do you think I attend YU?”
Because you Paraphrase Professor Tendler. The most likely place where you would hear him speak is YU.
“3. Why do you think I am bitter at Touro?”
Safe to say – because why else do you feel the need to keep putting them down?!?
“Lashon Hara is an aveirah, true enough. I was responding to Health accusing me of motzi shem ra, which was an inaccurate claim. I think my offending statement was “ut, now that you mention it, there probably have been violations of halacha at Touro.” I’m not sure if this is lashon hara; maybe it is. Maybe I shouldn’t have said it.”
I was talking about sanctioned violations of Halacha, like they do in YU. Eg. Forums about students and others whom have strange desires. Talking about one’s desires in public whether they were supposed to only have Frum speakers, not openly Toeivaniks is still not Mutter because it’s Nivel Peh. Yea, they (Frum ones only) should be supported and that’s why we have Shrinks that specialize in this. You want to pay for therapy -that’s fine, but it’s pure Nivel Peh and therefore a Chillul Hashem to have a public forum! Also, publically criticizing the “Me Yehudi” law in Israel is against Halacha because either it’s legitimizing Conservative & Reform conversions or it’s giving that impression to e/o that they are legitimate groups of Judaism, even if you personally are against them. And anyone who knows Halacha knows that that is Not true!
Sam 2 -“You’re missing my point. No one viewed it as any sort of Bizayon because no one cared. It was the same as any other random blogger or nutcase saying silly things. No one gave the Beacon any relevance, therefore no one viewed anything they said as having any effect (positive or negative) on anyone.”
If this paragraph is true, why in the next paragraph do you claim they were embarrassed? What did they have to be embarassed about -it had nothing to do with them? It was just some random blogger or nutcase saying silly things!
“They very strongly said that they were embarrassed by it, disagreed with it, and disassociated themselves from the Beacon completely. So what more do you want?”
crazybrit -“Please can I have some sound advise,
my grown toe nail has returned, how can I fix it and stop it returning again?”
Don’t tell me in Britain they spell advice -ADVISE.
If you are too lazy to see a Podiatrist or if these type of docs weren’t invented in G.B. – take an ice cube -numb the toe and cut straight down with a scizzors. Clean the wound with soap and water or hydrogen peroxide and cover with a band-aid (I guess bandage for Brits). Stop any bleeding first with pressure placed on it with a gauze pad.
Is it infected? Ya know -bright red and pus comes out after you cut it. If so, then you will need to soak it in warm water for a bit. Then you can cover it with a band-aid which has on it an antibiotic, such as Bacitracin.
To prevent recurrance -always cut your nails straight across.
As for payment for my services -you can forget it -I don’t like Euros or Pounds or whatever you call money nowadays!
If it was me and whether I was asked or not, the answer is still -No!
HaLeiVi -“Why do you ask how I know? I didn’t make any sting operation on them. That is their claim to fame. They call themselves integrated doctors.”
The reality is that they will only play Alternative medical doc. I knew s/o who was both and did both, but eventually he moved more & more towards Alternative. Then he only did alternative. So those guys that were mentioned are famous Radio personalities -they are not practicing regular medicine. Maybe their MD knowledge helps them with diagnosis, but you aren’t getting a treatment plan based on regular medicine.
“I wasn’t trying to play up the bribing issue. It was in the news, and I have no idea how many doctors were involved and how terrible their actions were.”
Good, but my point was all the unethical Docs only add up to a very small percentage of e/o who practices medicine.
“What I say about trigger happy doctors is based people I know, no great national study. But the large amount of medicated youngsters does point to over-drugging.”
In my mind if these kids are being medicated and they don’t really have ADD or ADHD, is because of the parents. The parents are either too lazy to properly discipline their kids or they don’t know how. So they opt for the easy way out. They come to the practioner and claim their kid has ADHD, but the problem lies – before they will prescribe meds they have to fit the criteria. The parents know this and answer all the questions in the affirmative so they will get their kids on meds. This isn’t the docs’ fault. How should he/she know the parents are lying?
So if it’s true what you say that there are too many kids on drugs, this is because we raised a “Me” generation. The parents are too self-centered to even care about raising their own kids properly. But it could also be that nowadays there is more awareness to these childhood mental illnesses -so more parents are bringing in their child to be tested. In other words -there always was a lot of kids with ADD or ADHD, but noone -not the parents -not the docs knew about it.
PBA -“Chessed is completely optional, but once you agree to do it, and the other person relies on you, it is an obligation.”
This quote applies equally or more as well to the Org.!
Sam2 -“I’m saying that no one cared. No one cared at all about the Beacon.”
You didn’t answer my question – I’ll repeat it – “This I don’t really understand! Why didn’t they care? Why didn’t they care about the YU name being associated with Bizayon Hatorah?”
optimusprime – What you think he okayed it? Secondly, even if he did, does that mean he knew what he was going to speak on?
I said policies, not speeches.
HaLeiVi -“I heard of this accusation about companies bribing doctors, but that’s not really what this is about.”
And what percentage are these guys of the total?
“It is just a prevalent attitude that medicine is the best solution.”
It probably is.
“It is a known fact that your kid would get Ritalin for any slight inconvenience in discipline. When you see that half of our youngsters are on one medicine or another what does that tell you, that evolution failed?”
I know of No such fact. Do you have any proof to your claims?
“When you go to someone like that you know that he won’t ignore real medical needs.”
How do you know?
“But, if people were more open minded we would get the benefits of everything.
Conventional medicine has it’s limitations when it comes to auto-immune disease and other non-physical ailments. Perhaps Chinese medicine, One-brain, imagery, or who knows what else should be explored.”
If you read my previous posts, you would have seen that I hold that there is a place for Alternative medicine, just not instead of!
cleverjewishpun -Yes -I have no problem with wealthy people spending their money on things like houses, cars, clothes etc. as long as they make sure at least one poor person has food on their table, not just giving to orgs. Because you don’t know exactly where the money is going with orgs. Every rich guy should have at least one poor family they personally support or more if they can afford it -then they can live lavishly.
But even after this -I do have a problem with rich families spoling their kids! You can buy them things that they want, but they don’t need every new thing (the latest & greatest) that comes unto the market. This is called spoiling them and they will end up with rotten Middos!
Sam 2 – Now after all the posts -why would they give a dime or T-shirts or Pizza to a club/publication started by an anti-Frum person? Again I ask -Did they think that only Kosher articles would be written?
“I guess they could have fought over having the word “YU” in the name but no one really cared”
This I don’t really understand! Why didn’t they care? Why didn’t they care about the YU name being associated with Bizayon Hatorah? Why did they disassociate from them after it made a stink in the rest of the world, but not before?
These type of things just don’t happen in Touro!
zahavasdad -“And i suspect the more charedi school reject even more students than the MO.”
And even if this were the case, did these kids end up in P.S. or did they find another Jewish school to go to?
aries2756 -“Unfortunately there are many frum kids in Public School because parents can’t afford Yeshiva tuition and they had to make that decision to survive. It is very sad but that is the unhappy truth.”
Really many? I think it probably is a few. I don’t think most schools are this evil. I do know parents whom opted to home school because they felt they couldn’t afford the tuition, but not Public school.
tahini – Thank you for your kind words. It seems you are one of the few that has anything nice to say to me.
BTGuy -“Is the medical establishment acting ethically and properly in all cases? Clearly not!”
This I don’t believe. Do you have any proof to this? Or are you referring to a few bad apples? Again most medical professionals are on the up & up.
To say differently is to believe in all these conspiracy theories that are out there.
“But Health, what is your opinion on the latest trends I am hearing about?:
1. Giving people some sort of cholesterol prescription even if their numbers are good; to be used as a preventative. It seems entire office buildings are on it and it causes weight gain.
2. Putting people on a cocktail of multiple high blood pressure prescriptions – as a first response- to blood pressure levels that a decade ago were considered normal, and today are called pre-hypertension, or something like that, again, as a first response to the problem.”
You have to be more specific. I don’t know exactly what you are talking about. But if you want me to guess – I’d say this is research. There are theories out there -that people wouldn’t get so much Cardiovascular disease if even avg. people were given these meds. So I would assume that people put on cholesterol and/or BP drugs, that you’d mentioned, are part of some study.
Research is done to find out if your hypothesis is true or not. As far as I know, they haven’t changed the guidelines of when these drugs should be prescribed, as of yet.
“Finally, because there are some awesome doctors, no one should need, who are truly great, does not mean we should take offense at the pushing of pills by many doctors who are influenced by pharmaceutical salespeople to prescribe the latest flavor of the month/year.”
Whether the practioner decides to push the latest flavor of the month like you say, he/she would never give it to a pt. that doesn’t have some sort of medical problem and this issue needs medication. Sometimes a practioner will push the latest & the greatest, not necessarily because he/she believes the Pharm rep., but because he/she doesn’t know. So how does he/she find out if it’s really like the Rep. says? They try it out on their pts. This isn’t using their pts. as guniea pigs because this drug has already been approved by the gov.!
“Also, we should take a look at the drugs that FDA says are ready to go to the public, only to find out the poisons they contain, the damage they cause leading to recalls (or not), and the great expense related to the importance of the drug (supply and demand).”
This is a conspiracy theory. Almost all drugs approved are safe for use. I already posted that sometimes there are a few that slip by. The gov. takes way too long to produce drugs for the market in this country.
“I am sure if there were undercover investigations, the pharm/medical establishment, as a whole, would not come up clean. I believe prescriptions are not given out truly based on scientific determinism.”
More conspiracy theories. But people who have these theories are Not just a bunch of quacks, whom nobody cares about. Our Gov. is afaid of them and that’s why it takes much longer here in the US to put drugs out to market, than other countries. I’m not like the gov. who is scared of public opinion and lawsuits. I believe it is a Chiyuv from the Torah to bring as much drugs as quickly as possible to market to save as much lives as possible. “Well if you do that -there would be tons of dangerous drugs on the market?” Obviously, I’m not advocating -No testing, just a lot quicker. Just like our gov. was more scared of the AIDS lobby (probably because this disease started amongst the Toeiva population and they yield the most clout – more than any other group) than these conspiracy theorists and therefore the AIDS drugs was pushed through the process real quickly -so also all drugs should be speeded up. And you didn’t end up finding any AIDS drugs that had dangerous side effects.
Sam 2 – Let me ask you this – Is the Beacon a publication of YU?
If it is, why would they allow such a publication to exist which by your admission was started by an anti-Frum person? Did they think that only Kosher articles would be written?
And don’t tell me discrimination -I’m very familar with these laws. This is a Private institution, not a Public one!
old man -“To me it is obvious that hair/dressing/talking like goyim is a dynamic issur that changes its nature and scope depending on time, place and cultural norms and expectations. In my opinion, one has to have real intent to “be like a goy and not like a Jew” in order to transgress. The Chochmas Adam emphasizes the intent here and not a specific action.”
Well actually the Chochmas Odom does get into detail and doesn’t really emphasize intent. Look it up inside and then come post why you don’t think it applies.
Aries -“Health, the only thing I can say is that the only way an organization can know whether or not it is working properly is if people like mytake give them feedback. If everyone just thanks them and applauds them for their good work and doesn’t get back to them about the problems they have no way of knowing and they have no clue that they have to make corrections.”
Yes, that is most certainly true. I don’t know if Mytake gave them the feedback or not. But I do know the orgs. I’ve had dealings with. You can complain till you are blue in the face -they still won’t listen to you and change. “Who are you that they should listen to you? Are you from the elite in Klal Yisroel, ie. Yichus or money?” This would be a good area for Rabbonim to get involved in. It shouldn’t be their way or the highway!
Syag Lchochma -“and have walked away from your hurtful comments so many times.”
So you come here to this post to put me down because you are angry at me from before and decide to take revenge. Do you think there is something wrong with bearing a grudge?
“And honestly, I am in so much personal pain right now anyway, I don’t have the energy to not defend myself, and don’t think you could make me feel worse if you tried.”
What makes you think that I would want to do that? You’re the one that came here and decided -now’s my chance to put him down by telling e/o Aries is wrong for standing up for me!
“I think very carefully before I post”
I honestly don’t think you thought very carefully before coming to this topic and telling me off. What did you gain besides fufilling some desire to get revenge on me by posting what you did?
Shvartza Wolf -“Health: I didn’t call you a liar, I said you lied. And (to paraphrase Rabbi M.D. Tendler) that’s NOT an insult; it’s a fact.”
Your Gaavah is one of the worst I’ve ever encountered. I don’t care if you insult me but stop with the semantics -“I didn’t call you a liar, I said you lied.” If you have a Shred of Proof that I lied -post it!
“I’m not calling false statements lies because I haven’t seen proof that they are true. I’m calling them lies because I (personally) know they’re lies.”
Why should we or anybody believe you that they are lies, without any proof? Your Gaavah at work again!
“I’m glad they’re closed Shabbos and Yom Tov, and I’m glad you went there as a student…um, yeah, I don’t think the post-Lander administration has changed those things.
Dr. Lander is now 96 or so years old and dead for nearly 2 years. The idea that he “instituted all policies in any Touro school” – some 30 schools, at least one of which did not belong to Touro in his lifetime – is, I think, hard to believe.”
Do I care whether you believe it or not?
“No, for the most part, Touro policy is not dictated by me.”
Thank G-d!
“Also, for something to be motzi shem ra, I believe it has to be false”
Oh, did you actually learn Chofetz Chaim in YU?
Since I know No violations of Halacha in Touro and you have not proved that there was any, just Informed us that there was, acc. to Halacha (You do know what this word means?) you have to assume that there wasn’t any!
Your bitterness towards Touro was caused by what reason? Were you there and failed out? Or did you cheat and get thrown out?
BTGuy -“I understand your point, but I also dont agree.
Certainly, even a casual listening to such alternative medical doctors as Dr Ronald Hoffman or Dr Ash, etc. reveals countless success stories of people who were able to even get off prescription drugs and avoid the secondary complications caused by nothing other than prescription drugs.”
I have met many people like you that have been brainwashed by the alternative medicine quacks. I’ve listened to those guys on the radio too. I’m not against certain types of alternative therapies, but the concept of their way is right and modern medicine is wrong is just a hoax! The place for alternative medicine is in addition too or where modern medicine has no cure or treatment, so there is nothing to lose. These guys are more phoney than the Pharm companies. They make it sound as their way of medicine is a new thing and it’s the best thing since sliced bread. I already posted that these therapies have been around for hundreds or thousands of years, and the only thing that changed the human being life span was the advent of modern medicine.
“The real point here is not the merits or drawbacks to prescription drugs. The point was that is seems so many people are on zoloft these days.”
So why does this bother you?
“I will add that prescriptions for all kinds of mood-altering pills are given out to basically healthy people. I would add that ritalin and prescribing numerous other drugs (even over the counter) for daily use for children is through the roof. I would add that statins, from what I hear, are given out like candy. I would add diet pills, not so harmless, are given out by doctors before asking patients to try diet and exercise as a recommendation first, etc..etc…etc.”
This I disagree with. Zoloft and mood -altering drugs are not given out to healthy people. These people suffer from mental illness. Same with Ritalin. Statins are given out to prevent Cardiovascular disease. And who says PCP’s don’t first tell their pts. to diet & exercise? Some pts. can’t and some don’t want to, then there becomes the need to manage them with medications.
Are you denying the fact that there is such a thing as mental illness?
“You believe the high rate of prescription drugs are based on a valid need, which coincidentally happens to be high, and there is no variable regarding marketing strategies between pharmaceutical salespeople that impact upon the physicians. I believe different.
Perhaps someone here is in pharmaceutical sales and can let us know if they feel they impact doctors along their regular sales routes, with certain drugs via sales pitches and incentives. Yes, incentives.”
I never said there is “no variable regarding marketing strategies between pharmaceutical salespeople that impact upon the physicians”.
Yes, there is such a thing as Pharm reps and they do give presents to docs -mainly food. So do you really think now the medical professionals start doing unethical things? Is this what you have been brainwashed to think?
In the rest of the world esp. politics, people buy others with cash (bribes), (they call it donations to political parties -they even allow certain types of money called “soft” money -whatever this means) this doesn’t happen in the medical field. The only thing that occurs with these soft presents is that when the practioner decides to write a script for the pt., he/she will pick the company that they like. 99.99% of practioners Will Not do anything Unethical such as writing a script to a pt. which the pt. doesn’t need!
I have a question to you -how come there are so many people in the Frum community that believe in Alternative medicine, much more than the rest of the nation?
Syag Lchochma – Really? Perhaps you should reread their posts? Some things they said I wouldn’t exactly call “pretty kind and cool headed”! But people read what they want to read.
And the irony is you call yourself “Syag Lchochma” and the last part is Shtika. Coming here and berating me, esp. since you weren’t personally involved, is Not practicing what you preach!
mommamia22 -“I think it is a yeshivas responsibility to do all that is in their power to help a child find appropriate placement, if they deem their school a poor fit.”
Now what happens if they can’t find the child somewhere else or they don’t feel like looking for a place for him/her, can they now let the kid go to P.S. or do they have to accept the kid?
A Heimishe Mom -“Basic mentchlichkeit, I would hope, is lesson number one in all chessed programs in every high school. I don’t care how or why an orginization is run. The girls themselves should have shown better middos than that. Sorry. They ARE at fault here!”
mytake -“Health -In this case I don’t think it had anything to do with the organization. Nobody has to tell them that common sense says, keep things more or less quiet.”
aries2756 -“If you are at a wedding and offer to do a chessed on the way home from that wedding, then it is your responsibility to leave that wedding on time no matter what. The other girls are either in it with you or not. Your obligation is first to the job you agreed to do and the girls at the wedding should be made aware of that. If she didn’t understand the obligation or responsibility she took on when agreeing to pick up this person from the hospital then she shouldn’t have volunteered and someone else would have. That is the point. Her “Job” was to leave the wedding on time and make herself available to the person in need on time, be courteous to that person and be understanding to them. If she couldn’t do it, or didn’t understand how its done, then she should have left it up to someone who could.
Anyone who volunteers to do a “chessed” should understand what they are signing up for. They are NOT doing a favor for someone else who should be grateful to them. They are signing up to do a mitzvah and they should be grateful for the opportunity to do it understanding that if the shoe was on the other foot, Hashem will send them their own shelichim to help them.”
I agree with your above posts, but let me explain my post.
It’s the responsibility of the org. to make sure things run smoothly. If the volunteer is not reliable -they can’t be allowed to volunteer. The org. have to prioritize their funding. If all they have is some girls coming home from a Chasunah to pick up people, then they should pay money for a reliable driver. These orgs. have tons of money for every Naarishkeit they can think of, but they can’t do even the basic Chessed right.
Again this rant doesn’t apply to all orgs., just a few whom use their power to do whatever they want and tell you if you don’t like it -lump it -We’re Volunteers! These few orgs. don’t know the meaning of Chessed. And trust me Mytake’s incident isn’t the only one; it’s more like most of the time this goes on! It’s time for the Klal to start cleaning house – Orgs. that don’t know what the word L’shem Shomayim means have to go!
Shvartza Wolf -“Health: When I asked you about acting civilly, I was referring to things like calling someone you don’t know an “am ha’aretz.” When I said “stop lying”, I was not denigrating you on a personal level, but pointing out the fact that things which you type are factually inaccurate.”
Sorry to inform you, but you didn’t read my post totally. I said you are a hypocrite because you tell me to act civilly and then you call me a liar. What I wrote after that you seemed to miss -I wrote without a SHRED of Proof! If you call s/o a liar and you don’t prove it -just we should take your word for it -this is very far from any civil behavior. Calling s/o a liar is far worse than calling him an Am Haaretz!
“I can call something false if I know it to be false – even if I don’t want to explain it online. Why don’t you prove that it’s true?”
Look – you’re starting to sound incoherent here. You can call s/o a liar without proving that they are lying because they didn’t prove that they were speaking the truth? I don’t think you have any clue what the term “Civil” means and you lack in basic Menchlichkeit!
“The school follows all policies he instituted even though he isn’t alive.”
Such as? And how do you know?”
Such as not being open Erev Shabbos afternoon, Shabbos, Erev Yom Tov afternoon, Yom Tov and the list goes on. I went there as a student.
“HaKatan: I didn’t claim that there were any violations of halacha at Touro. When I wrote “blatantly false” I could have been referring to (and I think I was – I’m not sure if I remember correctly) the assertion that Dr. Lander instituted all policies in any Touro school.”
So who instituted all of Touro’s policies of which none have changed since Rabbi Dr. Lander’s death? You???
“But, now that you mention it, there probably have been violations of halacha at Touro.”
Now you’re starting to speak Motzay Shem Ra! But don’t worry the “Beacon” will condone any of your bad behavior.
“Also, you’re correct: I’m not sure why Dr. Lander is relevant; if someone wants to explain it to me, that’d be great.”
This was already explained twice -once by me and once by Hakatan.
Go back to sleep!
mytake -I understand where you are coming from. Some of these orgs. do it only for Kovod/prestige. Others do it L’shem Shomayim.
I had to do a certain amount of volunteer time as part of my college schooling. I figured great -I’ll volunteer at my local Bikur Cholim. I offered to drive or do other things, but they declined saying they have enough volunteers. But the reason was because I didn’t have any connections, so I was declined. So I went to a different town and volunteered in that Bikur Cholim.
So unfortunately, not all these orgs. are doing it for the right reason. Some are and some aren’t. Trust me it’s not the girls -it’s the way that org. is run!
Sam 2 -You might have a point in other topics, but here she posted a reply directed at me. Her basic contention was it’s no biggie if a kid is forced to go to Public School.
I always held this as an Aveira Chamurah and now that I’m personally involved -it takes on a new dimension. Hence -the very strong and emotional reply!
HaKatan – Skoiach. Very well written!
old man -“Beyond that, my opinion is that the issur of chukas hagoyim as far as dress goes is quite difficult to transgress nowadays. I guess wearing a nun’s habit or priest’s collar might do it, but not much else.”
Your opinion seems to be the general consensus around here.
But what do you people do with the Chochmas Odom?
BTGuy -I understand your point, but I really don’t agree.
Modern medicine, which is really only less than a hundred years old, has basically evolved to – here is a pill -take it and your problems are over. Alternative medicine has been practiced throughout the ages. Has it really ever helped anyone? I doubt it. It’s more like the placebo effect. Why? Because look at the overall length of a life. The lifespan has increased tremendously in the world due to modern medicine. It was increased by the invention of antibiotics. At the turn of the century the leading cause of death was pneumonia. Now it’s cardiovascular disease. People didn’t live long enough for all things including all the risk factors to even produce cardiovascular disease.
So over prescribing is a matter of perspective. We are in the age where we can develop new technology, so there is a rush. On one hand the need is more imperative than taking precaution. On the other hand we need to have some precautions. Most people who are involved in modern medicine are interested in helping their fellow man. But how do you do this? We live in a capital system – if you want pharm companies to develop drugs -there must be a financial incentive for them to do it.
Does this financial incentive sometimes allow dangerous drugs to pass through? Sure, it does. But what I’ve found in reality is that the development of new drugs takes way too long in this country. In Europe, they are much quicker. The AIDS epidemic forced the gov. to allow some drugs a quicker process. Because of this – basically AIDS isn’t a death sentence the way it used to be. People are now living out their lives with these drugs, almost normal life spans.
So what makes the News? Only when s/o dies because of some drug that slipped through the system. It never makes the news when s/o dies of cancer or other disease and this particular cancer or disease they have developed a cure or treatment for it, but the patient can’t get their hands on it due to the red tape by the FDA – holding it up for years!
mommamia22 – And I would suggest to the Mods not to let you post anymore considering you find no problem if a Yeshiva rejects a student and thereby causes that student to end up in P.S.
I would call your Hashkafos very far removed from Torah Yiddishkeit!
Shvartza Wolf -“I haven’t posted in a while on this thread, so I may have some comments bottled up inside of me.”
So this is a release of tension? I understand. Are you feeling better now?
“1. Health: Why can’t you attempt to be more civil?
2. Health: Please stop lying.”
What hypocrisy! You’re asking me to be more civil and the very next second you call me a liar without bringing a shred of proof!
What – only I have to be civil, not you?
“A. As far as I can recall, nobody here said any motzi shem ra about Touro. The fact that you find something mildly offensive doesn’t mean that it’s motzi shem ra. I know you accused various posters – I was first – of spouting motzi shem ra, but the accuracy of your statements is not commensurate with the amounts of times you say them.”
Yes, it is. Blaming the school on the action of a few employees who sold grades and/or degrees is Pure outright Motzay Shem Ra!
“B. You say “Rabbi, Dr. Lander A’H, is the one whom instituted all policies in any Touro school. These are all acc. to Halacha. The school carries on his tradition to this day.”
First, this is blatantly false.”
Again saying something is Not true without a shred of proof!
“Second, as he is no longer president, I’m not sure why he’s relevant. You say that “[t]he school carries on his tradition to this day”, but I’m not sure what that means.”
If you had any civilty, you’d first ask to explain; but what you do is first call me a liar and then say – explain what you meant.
The school follows all policies he instituted even though he isn’t alive.
mommamia22 -I’m angry because you have no idea what you are talking about and you think you know it all.
“My mother did it. She remained frum. Back in her day there were not so many frum schools. Her family upbringing kept her frum.”
How ignorant of you to compare years ago to today. Many people years ago didn’t have Yeshiva backgrounds and remained Frum due to their upbringing. Nowadays because of the low level of the generation, not only is it next to impossible to remain Frum going to P.S., but lots of kids go OTD whom do go to Yeshiva!
“Please don’t think that even very yeshivish places would accept anyone over sending them to public school. Maybe out of town, but not in New York.”
Outright Lie! Most Yeshivos in NY, if not all would take a kid if it meant saving them from P.S.
Someone once told me a story what happenned with his kid. He applied to one of BP most fancy Yeshivos and he got rejected because they couldn’t agree on tuition. So he told them -he’s moving out of town and putting his kid(s) in Public school.
He actually moved to a different state up north to a small town.
They happenned to have a small Lubabvitch Yeshiva where he sent his kids. The Yeshiva in BP found out he moved and called him every night begging him to take his kids out of P.S. & bring his kid(s) back to BP and they would accept him. After a few months of them calling him, he felt vindicated and told them where his kids really where, so they should stop calling him.
“Kids with good “credentials” get turned down for placement just because of a flood of applicants (elementary school) and not having connections. That’s life.”
True, but there usually is somewhere else to go. I never heard of a story where a kid was forced into P.S. This is something you made up in your mind to defend this Yeshiva. You are obviously out of touch with reality!
“Why do you assume I’m young?”
I was hoping to blame your foolishness on your age. If you are older -it’s much worse!
“Why do you assume my knowledge of Halacha is not that great?”
Well it’s either not that great or you blatanly ignore it!
“The person who was kicked out of yeshiva who went to public school wasn’t forced to go to public school. That was their choice (I know them. You do not).”
So why post it? It has no revelance to my case!
“How does the choice of the yeshiva to call the police and send letters to families alerting them to what has occurred point to their condoning this behavior? I would assume the opposite.”
I never said that. I said acc. to your train of thought you should have no problem with Yeshivos covering up for molesters!
yid.period -“a) I’m an am haaretz? Why must you resort to personal attacks? That is not the way a ben torah should act at all, let alone having a discussion with a fellow Jew.”
Put it simply -if you dish it out -you will get it back!
“Health – I assume you have learned some gemara over the course of your life.”
An extremely sarcastic line. Do You think this is the way a Ben Torah should write?
“b) In the first portion of your post, you tell me “don’t assume anything” yet you proceed to quote where you yourself said
“so I can only assume that e/o there including the Rabbis have no objection because Shtika K’hodoah!
I heard No Public objection!”
I have a hard time believing you were following the story closely enough, reading reliable enough sources to hear anything close to resembling balanced and fair reporting, and if you were, I’m sure you would have heard their objections.”
Just look at the newspaper article in the previous page. I didn’t see any rebuttal in any newspaper. If there is any -you can post IT here!
“c) again, calling me lazy – that sounds quite immature of you. The point is you are biased in your “interpretation” (loosely speaking) of what was said.”
There was no “interpretation” like you write. The quote is there in black and white. If you have any point of where I misinterpreted -feel free to post it on this page. Don’t talk in abstract, if you have a point -post it.
“d) let’s get one thing straight – there is no “CEO” of YU. It is a huge organization, with many distinct parts. NOBODY speaks for everybody here.”
Wrong the board and CEO do represent your Yeshiva/ University -whatever it is, no matter what you say!
“You havent mentioned the President of Touro once in your support of attending there; he is for most purposes, irrelevant to students at the institution; same goes for YU.”
Rabbi, Dr. Lander A’H, is the one whom instituted all policies in any Touro school. These are all acc. to Halacha. The school carries on his tradition to this day.
“e) What the current President and Board believe with regard to ANYTHING is irrelevant to this discussion as long as any frei beliefs they hold do not make there way into any policy of the institution, of which there have been none.”
Keep talking into yourself that their Frei beliefs are irrevelant and have no influence on the school!
“So in being dan lekaf zechus of them and judging them based on their past performance, I would say they do not hold of any frei ideals, and you insinuating the possibility otherwise is uncalled for and offensive.”
If you can be Mevaer what they hold, you can’t just be Someach on Dan L’caf Zecus. (If you don’t understand this last line ask SAM2.)
“One of the things they like to teach in YU is how to have an intelligent and balanced discussion; you would gain a lot attending for a semester or two.”
Chas V’sholom!!!!!
“I can honestly say I really do not like having these “conversations” with you because there isn’t much of a conversation at all in my opinion, let alone the above mentioned intelligent conversation or debate that I have become accustomed to expecting when speaking with other people.”
So if you don’t like posting to me -whom is forcing you to?!?!?!?
Sam2 -“Health: It’s not possible that I just don’t like mass Lashon Hara and Motzi Shem Ra about Frum Jews? I have to be personally involved to defend something?”
Yes, that’s what I was doing for Touro, but I was a student there.
If you really only cared about Motzay Shem Ra why was your first post here this?
“Health: Regardless of how you see it, Rav Schachter (and Rav Soloveitchik before him) represents YU’s Hashkafa much more than Rabbi Lamm ever did.”
You didn’t make not one post decrying the Motzay Shem Ra/ LH on Touro. Now you expect me to buy your line about -“It’s not possible that I just don’t like mass Lashon Hara and Motzi Shem Ra about Frum Jews? I have to be personally involved to defend something?”
Really????
Sam2- “Health: I guarantee that if you would ask Richard Joel what he thinks of Conservative conversions he would say that he is neither a Posek nor Rosh Yeshivah and would leave that decision up to R’ Schachter.”
My previous post was not to make assumptions about R. Joel, but to make a point to yid.period that he can’t make such an assumption without asking the parties beforehand.
I don’t get you. You claim you aren’t a student of YU, but you ferociously defend them. Are you related to people who work there?
soliek – You must be very young & naive. Have you ever heard of legal terms like divorce, custody, judgments? The only real choice I had left was this MO school in Elizabeth or the default was P.S.
Since they didn’t accept my kid -it went to default.
Sam – I’ll look it up again Bli neder when I have the time. When I learnt it -I don’t recall learning it like you.
yid.period – “Health – I assume you have learned some gemara over the course of your life.”
Don’t assume anything. Maybe I’m an Am Haaretz like you.
“Can you really say, with certainty, that no RY has come out against what you are quoting R Lamm as saying !?”
Since you didn’t read My post -I’ll quote it for you:
“so I can only assume that e/o there including the Rabbis have no objection because Shtika K’hodoah!”
I heard No Public objection!
“(I say “you assume” because what you just typed is definitely not a direct quote, and you’ll have to forgive me for taking your interpretation with a grain of salt).”
Don’t be so lazy and go to the pervious page and see what he says!
As far as I can see from his quote -there are no other possible interpretations. If you can squeeze one in – by all means let e/o know!
“Eidim can only testify that one did not pay back a loan in their presence, not that it was never paid back at all! IF what you are saying is close to the truth, you still cant throw everybody associated with YU into that group…”
Again you didn’t read my post -I’ll quote it again for you:
“Yea -that’s right – the CEO represents the school!”
“and btw, in any case, how much is R lamm involved with YU these days? I didn’t go to YU in previous years, all I know is what it’s like now – and so I can say it IS run according to halacha – and you haven’t brought any evidence to the contrary either.”
Well how can you say this? Did you ask the current President and the board that runs the school what they hold regarding Reform & Conservative conversions? If you didn’t ask, then you have to assume they hold the same as Rabbi? Dr. Lamm!
It’s really getting fun having these convos with you yid.period!
And that is an exclamation mark, not a period. (period)
Jothar – Way to go Jo!
soliek -“really want me to answer that?”
Please tell us – what you really think? Your insinuation is more of a reflection on you than on me!