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Aries – +2
Sam – I know that, but I don’t think the avg. guy can use it. Because you can’t fool Hashem. They meant it -if mostly your Kavana is that you’re actually laining the Parsha. A little bit of your Kavana can be B’derech Techina!
HaLeiVi -I never blamed the pt. or the pt’s. family. What upset me was the attitude – that us medical professionals don’t look for other causes before we diagnose a pt. with mental illness. Ruling out organic or physical causes is one of the basic things we do before such a diagnosis. Is it possible this guy made a mistake? Sure.
Should you warn people about this type of mistake? Why not?
But just realize most medical professionals will not make such a mistake.
Just to end with a story -Many moons ago before I really studied medicine as a Bochur I happenned to be really sick. So I went to the doctor and he gave me a script for antibiotics. I always was interested in medicine and I knew a drop -so I asked him how does he know it’s bacterial and not viral, (even though I had a double ear infection)? (FYI -ear infections can also be viral.) He yelled at me and pulled up my shirt and said see that rash -that’s scarlet fever (Strep infection). Needless to say, I slithered away with my tail between my legs.
But in all reality, now as a practioner, it’s not such a bad question to ask. Why? Because unfortunately, a lot of practioners will give antibiotics without it being a clear cut bacterial infection. While this practice is iffy, giving antibiotics when it’s basically a clear cut viral infection is bad medical care. And you will even nowadays find some that still do this!
aries – +1
Bubby -Which Jersey hospital?
Sam2 – They were on the Madriega to mainly think I’m doing it just like I’m reading in the Torah and secondly for Tachnum. I think most people nowadays will think I’m doing it for Tachnum, but I’m laining it to get out of the need to have 10.
Feif Un -“I think you’re filled with hate. Try reading the Iggeres HaRamban. It’s supposed to help people deal with anger and hate issues. I highly recommend it.”
Actually you are the one filled with hate towards all Yeshivishe people! You come here gloating how great the MO school is and how great they handled the problem of their molester. That the Non -MO yeshivos should learn from them.
“This is how these cases should be handled. No sweeping under the rug. Telling parents what’s going on, and how it’s being handled. Let’s all learn from Rav Teitz shlita and the way he’s dealing with this.”
And the point of my post was the MO school should learn from regular Yeshivos whom most know if it is a choice of them or P.S. they will accept the kid!
Just like something so simple how to handle molesters -there is also something very simple of how Not to push kids into P.S.!
soliek -“k’lomar: it was the MO school in Elizabeth or bust. am i misinterpreting that?”
It was the last possible option before P.S. Why do you keep making these types of questions? You think I could have stopped this and didn’t?
mommamia22 – You are a young women -I’d assume your knowledge of Halacha is not that great. Also you seem to have been brainwashed that the system can’t ever do anything wrong.
“I also know of two people who were in yeshiva and at different ages were “kicked out” because of lack of academic ability. Both these people wound up in public school.”
If this is actually the case or like in my case, (and since the school didn’t get them in elsewhere), this one of the worst Aveiros a person or an org. can do! Pushing someone off the Derech with your Yadayim is very bad.
“the other literally went off the derech and married out, blaming the school for HIS choices in life. B’derech sheadam rotzeh leilech, boh molochin osoh. The choices that matter are the choices you make today.”
To blame the victim for not remaining Frum when they were forced to go to Public School is a total lack of Ahavas Yisroel! Nowadays there are so many who go OTD from the situation they experienced in Yeshivas and you expect s/o to remain Frum after having had to go to public school?!?!
“I think what the school did was truly commendable. Sending out letters to all the families allows parents to explore with their kids if they were ever victimized and to seek help and support.”
Acc. to your way of thinking -why should the Yeshivas’ care if they have a molester amongst them? So they were molested in school -so what’s going to happen? The victims will go OTD -they will commit suicide -so what does this have to do with the school? -YOU decided that e/o is responsible for their own CHOICES! So the victim’s bad choices are their own fault -why blame the school?
Obviously, I don’t agree with this warped, sick way of thinking and Yeshivos have to do what the Torah wants first. You can’t Not accept a child or throw one out if they will end up in public school and you can’t protect molesters! The job of the Yeshiva is to create Bnei Torah and Not to destroy these precious Neshamos!
Sam2 -“Health: Once again, even if one “MO” school acted like that it’s still fallacious to assume that all “MO” schools don’t act Lesheim Shamayim.”
Once again -I never said all! I was talking about a specific one!
yid.period & Sam2 –
“Health – what does “run acc. to halacha” mean? The Yeshiva and University are certainly;”
“Health: The school doesn’t run the student lives. They do that in accordance with their Poskim. I still don’t see the problem.”
The two of you keep posting the same Naarishkeit over & over.
Keep dreaming that the school is run acc. to Halacha. I just posted to you on the previous page proving that it’s Not! Here is my quote -to referesh your memory:
“values secular culture & tolerance of different opinions.
And we see what that means later on. He tolerates conservative & reform conversions. This means he either holds of their conversions -not acc. to Halacha or he finds no problem calling these conversions Jews so innocent/ignorant (Am Haarazim) will possibly end up marrying them, even though they are Goyim.”
There has been No public refutation of the past CEO’s words -so I can only assume that e/o there including the Rabbis have no objection because Shtika K’hodoah! That statement is 100% against Halacha so therefore the Yeshiva/school is also run against Halacha! Yea -that’s right – the CEO represents the school!
old man -“According to many, the Yud Gimel Midos may be said without a minyan, providing they are read as if reading (leining) from the Torah.”
I never do because that’s not the reason I’m saying it -so even though technically it’s ok -whom are you fooling?
As far as Tachnum in Mincha -I’m pretty sure that it is a Minhag not to say. While I believe this Minhag started because sometimes Mincha was finished too late to say Tachnum -this has become the Minhag (Not saying) all the time – No matter when you actually finish!
ZK -Some patience -obviously.
lemaysa -“Health while according to your interpitation of halacha may make it sound as if it is assur for many reasons”
Numero uno -It’s not my interpretation -this is what the Chocmas Odom says outright!
“..(btw i asked a few poskim if theres any halachic basis to ur claim and was given the negative to that)”
I actually asked “mdd” for Mareh M’komos. I have no problem Not Paskening like the Chocmas Odom if s/o Proves differently. So instead of saying I asked Poiskim -go find out why these Poiskim say what they do and bring me some Mareh M’komos!
“where you have a heter to be on the internet”
Why are you mixing Boidem Mit Klutz? What does one thing have to do with another? I’m not here to copy their style!!!
The only Issur of being like the Goyim is when it changes your outward appearance. I might be a little fatter than otherwise because I’m a couch potato, but other than this -there is No outward change!
OOmis -“To the rest of the readers, please do not blindly accept at face value what any doctor tells you, and especially when it comes to mental health issues. There could be an underlying physiological reason for the apparent emotional disorder, and when THAT illness is treated, the depression could disappear. As soon as my mom was given hormone replacement for her non-functioning thyroid and adrenal glands, she was her old self overnight.
When someone truly DOES suffer from emotional illness that cannot be eased through cognitive or behavioral therapy, and medication is warranted, then unquestionably that is the route to go, or some combination of meds and therapy may be needed. This is not a lecture. It is my conclusion, drawn from experience. I thought this was a forum where one could express an opinion.”
Now compare this post to your original. Had you posted this in the beginning -I’d have no problem with it. This post you don’t come to any faulty conclusions on e/o in the medical field. You post your feelings based on an incident that happenned to you and you’re telling people to take heed. There was no reason to put down others in the medical field because of your story.
Feif Un -“Proud MO” – There is nothing to be proud of!
“I don’t think Health was being serious.”
And you think it’s only the Frum Yeshivos who protect molesters are the ones in denial?
You’re in DENIAL big time!
Sam2 -“Health: That’s one of the worst logical fallacies I ever heard. Because some MO school rejected your kid then every other MO school can’t possibly care about the Torah?”
You call it a fallacy -maybe you should read the OP’s post before you post!
I was talking about a MO school in Elizabeth run by the JEC, not necessarily JEC!
soliek -“if youre ranting about lshem shamayim and stuff then why did you make the choice for your kid that it was MO school or bust?”
How old are you? Are you still a kid?
Like I had a choice?!?!
OOmis -“responsibility to ascertain that no PHYSICAL cause is responsible for the symptoms that APPEAR to be depression.”
Again the lectures from s/o who knows more than us. Yes, this is one of our responsibilities, but sometimes this can be ascertained from the history alone.
“As to the responsibility of a patient or family member to be on top of things with the doctor – you can only go by what your (trusted) doctor tells you to be the case.”
Wrong – did you ever hear of getting a second opinion? So you and your family didn’t keep your responsibility, but you lecture e/o in the medical field what their responsibility is because one guy made a mistake!
“and so were all the many, many doctors who examined her in the hospital. NOT ONE of them ever asked us if she had an MRI, or suggested this should be done, to rule out brain tumors.”
This is not possible to judge up, unless you know what the reason she was hospitalized for and what type of docs saw her and for what reason. It’s not the responsibility of hospital personnel to play Primary care, unless this is the reason she was hospitalized for!
soliek – It depends on the situation. A lot of time the only tool a Shrink has in making a diagnosis is the history. Histories can be inaccurate esp. if the patient has mental problems. But most try to do the best they can. Some will see the pt. a few times before they decide what illness the pt. probably has.
So they did something right – big deal. Because my kid wasn’t accepted in some MO school in Elizabeth, he/she is now in public school. They probably did it for PR, not because they care about the Torah!
Aries – +1
Charles Short & ARWSF – You can dream up any consipracy theory you feel like -doesn’t mean it’s true. You can do as much research you want and the pt. doesn’t have to take medication or go to regular medical care. It’s a free country, but stop trying to convince the whole world that you are right!
Best Bubby – How did the newborn get an infection? Also, what country is this?
mdd – How about some Mareh M’komos?
Sam2 -“Health: What does a “school being run according to Halacha” mean?”
It means simply they don’t allow things in their school to occur which is Keneged Halacha. As opposed to YU. Look at Jothar’s post for examples of these.
Defending YU with – e/o knows there are Frei Yidden that go there isn’t an excuse why the school lets them do what they want!
yid.period -“For the record, Touro isnt a “Jewish” college”
But the school is run acc. to Halacha. Can YU claim the same thing??? I highly doubt it!
Jothar – +10 🙂
Nechomah -“PBA, what about the ones who also want a frontal lobotomy??”
We don’t need women to get those -that they have naturally!
PBA -And the guy himself is a 300 hundred pounder!
ARWSF -“BUt the “lazy route” is take pills.”
This is what most medical practioners do -call it what you want.
Last I heard, nooone is being forced to seek medical care by MD’s, DO’s, PA’s or NP’s, it’s a free country. You can go to anyone or anything for help with your problems. But most people here in the U.S. CHOOSE to seek medical care from those type of practioners!
OOmis – “Don’t hold back – tell me what you REALLY think! Contrary to your rather hostile sounding opinion, I am not mouthing off.”
This is my point of contention. Here is what you posted:
“I don’t believe in this type of over-prescribed therapy. Only a very few people are actually clinically depressed, but SO many are being prescribed Prozac and Zoloft, that it is not a joke.”
Who are you to make blanket statements from a personal story that happened to you?
Do you even know the numbers of people in this country that have depression?
“And I happen to know there is an epidemic of frum teenage girls on Prozac and other SSRIs in my neighborhood. They cannot ALL be clinically depressed, because if they are, it’s uch und vey.”
Look up the numbers of people whom have clinical depression in this country before you comment!
What I’ll give you is the total amt. of people with mental illnesses or problems. About 20% of the US population have some sort of mental illness or problem. (That’s why we got stuck having a course in Psych, as part of the medical curriculum, besides the psychology courses we had to take for prereq.)
Most don’t even know they have a mental illness and from those that do -most will never seek treatment for it. Do you know what 20% is – 1 out of how many?
And by the way, SSRI’s are given for other mental illnesses besides depression.
“I am relating a personal and extremely painful cautionary tale that when a doctor wants to immediately prescribe anti-depressants, it should only be after a FULL and thorough medical examination has ruled out a physiological cause for the depressive symptoms.”
Because you got burnt, so now you have the right to lecture anyone whom practices medicine???
E/o who practices medicine knows when to work something up and when not!
You don’t have to work up depression every single time, no matter what you say!!!
BT guy – “You have to be kidding.
PS. We all know board members and executives in all fields sit in their board meetings devising strategies/policies on how they can be nicer, more altruistic, philanthropic, and helpful to the public they wish to serve.”
No, I’m not kidding. Yes there are docs who give meds for no good reason, perhaps to profit, but this is a very, very small percentage. And e/o knows pharm companies are just that – companies. In a capital system -the purpose of companies is to make money, but they can’t prescribe.
mdd – Who are you to say -we don’t Pasken like this? We always go after the last Achron for Halacha. The only time you can say we don’t Pasken like the Achron if there are other contemporaries that argue.
In other words you have no idea why the Chocmas Odom said what he said – maybe he holds like the Rambam or maybe he learns this in the S’A.
So if you want a Heter to do what you want regarding nose rings or anything else of this sort -find s/o whom argues with this Chocmas Odom that came after the S’A. It’s possible that there are, but right now you have to listen to the Chocmas Odom.
Just saying it’s the Rambam and the Mechaber argues on this Rambam in the Kesef Mishna – isn’t good enough!
old man – “I am resisting the temptation to ridicule.”
If you won’t, I will. Maybe Hashem decided to take a dip? Or maybe by her pool because the Shechina is on top of Sick people!
nitpicker, rr6527, gefen –
Read this article from Pubmed/NIH:
“The Acute and Long-Term Adverse Effects of Shock Wave Lithotripsy
James A. McAteer, Ph.D. and Andrew P. Evan, Ph.D.”
The whole article is online. It talks about HTN & Diabetes amongst other issues.
At least two topics:
PBA -“Just they should be going for therapy instead of (or at least in addition to) medication.”
Of course they should, but what if they don’t want to?
As the Doc or other practioner -do you say too bad on you -No goodies (meds) for you or do you prescribe meds anyway? In this country you can’t force a patient to do the right thing. So if s/he won’t go for therapy, you can’t be unethical & withold the meds that you know s/he needs!
lkwdgirl 1 -Leave it up to the therapist. They both need individual and marital therapy. That’s their call, not his, not yours and not anybody from the CR peanut gallery.
I know s/o who was told by his family to divorce his wife (here in Lakewood) -maybe we are talking about the same couple? When I heard about it – I said those two? They don’t need a divorce -they need for s/o to take their kids away from them!
Baloochi – Yea? And what was wrong with my suggestion?
All youngsters – Topps was the best place. It was on Shorrock Rd.
Same center as Home Depot.
Sam2 -“You don’t like something and are therefore screaming “Issur D’Oraisa”.”
Really??? I don’t like earrings and I said they aren’t Ossur to wear.
“I’m done here as well.”
Good -bye.
“Enjoy Assuring nose rings and snapping.”
YOU said snapping was Ossur, not me!
“And Chas Veshalom don’t ever let anyone wear clothes that have any sense of style whatsoever.”
If they are the first Yidden to wear a style that came out amongst the Goyim -it might very well be a problem.
“If it’s not for Pritzus then it’s not Chukas Hagoyim, regardless of “style”.”
That’s your mistake. See my post to mdd!
mdd -“this was worn for generation, and that was not”
I was trying to explain why earrings aren’t Ossur -we didn’t get the idea of wearing them from the Goyim.
“(which is basically the whole mekor for your opinion!).”
Absolutely not. My Mekor is the Chocmas Odom.
“Do not put into Chaye Adam something which is not there.”
I did Not -He says Klor what I posted above.
“For something to be assur because of chukos ha’Goyim, it has to be pritsusdic.”
I understand your mistake because that’s an impression you can get from just reading the S’A. But after reading the Chocmas Odom it’s because we have to dress and look different than the Goyim.
Dressing Pritzusdik is a different ball game. You can dress not Tziniusdik and not be Oiver Chukas Hagoyim. Before you continue screaming -look it up!
Btw, do have an anger problem that you blow up everytime s/o disagrees with you?
yenta -It’s actually pretty hard work, but very enjoyable because it’s challenging!
Sam2 – Are you thinking straight or do you just like arguing with me???
Nose rings is Very similar to clothing and hair. These are done for people to look at, not like snapping your fingers. So why would a person want to wear a nose ring? Because their mothers and grandmothers and e/o up the line did it or because it’s the style? You know they want it because it’s the style and this style is by the Goyim -it didn’t originate in our generation amongst the Jews! This is exactly what the Chocmas Odom says is an Issur D’oraysa -picking up a style from the goyim and doing what they do! It doesn’t matter whether this style is for clothing or for hair or for piercings or for anything else!
Got it????
oomis1105 – Because you happened across one quack -why are you paiting us all with one brush?
“I don’t believe in this type of over-prescribed therapy. Only a very few people are actually clinically depressed, but SO many are being prescribed Prozac and Zoloft”
Actually there are many people whom are clinically depressed. And most practioners Do Not over-prescribe like you said! Why don’t you do some research before you mouth off?
PBA – +1
Syag Lchochma – “My sister’s stones were calcium but my dad’s were oxylate (sp?) He had to avoid anything with that in it.”
BB152 -“Oxalate or Calcium are the likely compositions of the stones.”
Oxalate is a type of Calcium stone. (There are others.) Like Calcium oxalate.
So it’s not Oxalate or Calcium -just Calcium.
There are 4 major types of stones. Listed in order of prevalence:
Calcium stones
Struvite (magnesium ammonium phosphate) stones
Uric acid stones
Cystine stones
Calcium stones have many causes. Two of these were mentioned above.
Struvite stones usually from an UTI or other infection.
Uric acid stones usually from Gout.
Cystine stones -very uncommon.
Raphael Kaufman -“Health, the bottom line is that you say that nose rings are “probably assur” and I think that they are probably muttar (but disgusting).”
No human being can say for sure about anything, unless they have Nevuah.
After reading the Chocmas Odom, it’s as close as you can get to being 100% Ossur!!!!
cherrybim – “The emergency room is not a fun place”
I disagree -I think the ED/ER is a great, fun place. I wouldn’t mind working there. 🙂