Forum Replies Created
Joseph: exactly my point. People decide what they think is right and then do it. They don’t say “I don’t know if I’m right or wrong”. You just have to think hard about what you’re doing and whether you consider it proper. And what Sam said holds true: if you’re supposed to wait until you get accepted, the Rambam wouldn’t have been the Rambam at all, because he wasn’t accepted very much close to his lifetime.
mw13, two points.
1) “Being unfaithful” implies someone is actively committing adultery, “Being gay” means one has desires, but doesn’t necessarily mean they are acting upon them. Isn’t there a difference?
2) I am not trying to defend the event; I know that several roshei yeshiva whom I respect greatly spoke out about it, and I therefore suspect it wasn’t a good idea. However, again, they spoke out because they thought it was inappropriate to publicize these nisyonos, but not (and this was really my point) because it legitimized a toeiva lifestyle. That was not the intention.
Joseph: Did the chasidim say “I don’t know if I am right or wrong”? Or did they do what they thought was appropriate?
Joseph, I read the thread you posted. There’s a reason the mods closed it. I don’t know about the quote you provided from Mishnas Aharon, but even assuming it is being interpreted correctly, “MO” was prevalently used as an excuse for people who weren’t shomrei halacha (sadly, this still happens nowadays). Perhaps that is what Rav Aharon was referring to. Or maybe the quote is taken out of context/misinterpreted; I don’t know because I have never seen the sefer. Also, I have heard that some of Rav Kotler’s hespedim are purposefully omitted from Mishnas Rav Aharon, so I have my misgivings about it.
Please read my post. I have seen pictures of a) Rav Aharon with Rav Soloveitchik at a chinuch atzmai event which Rav Aharon invited Rav Soloveitchik to be the keynote speaker b) Rav Aharon’s son, Rav Schneur Kotler, walking with Rav Soloveitchik c) Rav Schneur, Rav Moshe Feinstein, and Rav Soloveitchik sitting together. I also have knowledge of d) Rav Moshe, Rav Feinstein, and Rav Soloveitchik “officiated” at a wedding (neither of them was the Mesader Kiddushin) e) The eyewitness story I mentioned above where Rav Soloveitchik’s respect for Rav Aharon was revealed and Rav Malkiel Kotler agreed that he should have been at Rav Soloveitchik’s funeral, but couldn’t f) Another eyewitness story where Rav Soloveitchik and Rav Aharon met discussing a halachic issue to which they radically opposed each other. Rav Aharon referred to Rav Soloveitchik as “Bostoner Rav” and Rav Soloveitchik called Rav Aharon “Kletsker Rosh Yeshiva” (note: and the chinuch atzmai event was not long AFTER this disagreement between Rav Aharon and Rav Soloveitchik). e) A talmid of Rav Soloveitchik who says that Rav Soloveitchik would call Rav Moshe Feinstein and Rav Aharon (and later, Rav Schneur) before a yom tov.
Do you have a source for your comment regarding Rav Schneur Kotler? If you want to throw around sourceless comments, I have also heard (not from an eyewitness) that Rav Schneur actually attended a shiur at YU for some time, so there.
There are also the posts of others, which I can not confirm, which say that many other gedolim respected Rav Soloveitchik while vehemently disagreeing with him. How? Because it’s a machlokes l’sheim shomayim.
I honestly don’t know what to say about Rav Elchonon’s letter. Maybe there was a different situation at YU than there is today, and kefirah was more easily accessible, or perhaps Rav Elchonon was misinformed about the situation (as we see with some gedolim today). I don’t know.
I just found a picture of Rav Moshe Feinstein and Rav Schneur Kotler zt”l sitting with Rav Soloveitchik zt”l.
mw13: in this context, you are using the words “tolerance and support” in a way not intended. Not tolerance or support of the aveirah CH”V; rather an understanding of the challenges these individuals face and an attempt to make them not feel less ostracized just because of their urges. Of course, active baalei toeivah are a completely different story, though still I don’t think we should judge them in the way of “He’s a bad person” because HaShem takes into account the nisayon. It’s absolutely terrible, but it’s not our place to judge. All we can do is try to have them be machzir b’tshuva, which might be achieved by trying to understand their challenges. We can also daven.
What you say about not having this kind of club at a chareidi yeshiva may be correct, but I have a feeling there aren’t any clubs there to begin with.
Regarding mixed events, I meant it was fine not if one merely “believed” it based on their own logic, but if they are following a legitimate halachic opinion. Keep in mind the often non-social nature of these events.
Regarding Rav Aharon and Rav Soloveitchik, I quote (1st result when you google “remembrances and reflections rav Aharon and the rav”):
“In 1954 or 1955, Rav Aharon reached out again to him and enlisted him in efforts to raise funds for Chinuch Atzmai.” That would indicate Rav Aharon wanted Rav Soloveitchik to be involved, and wasn’t forced into that situation.
“On a hot and humid night – I think it was a Tuesday – during the shiva for Rav Shneuer Kotler, I was at his home in Lakewood when at around 8 pm in the evening a car pulled up in front of the house. Several men got out and virtually carried Rav Soloveitchik who was quite frail by then into Rav Shneuer’s home. He sat next to Rav Malkiel Kotler and said the following: “I was a friend of your grandfather, I was a friend of your father and I will be your friend.” When Rav Soloveitchik died, I called Rav Malkiel Kotler and asked that he go to the funeral in Boston as an expression of hakoras hatov. He responded that I was right that he should go and then told me why he could not do so.”
Also, there’s another picture of Rav Soloveitchik and Rav Schneur Kotler walking together.
Last point: even if your eyewitnes is in fact correct that Rav Aharon “waged a war” against Rav Soloveitchik, that doesn’t have to mean anything other than their radically different halachic opinions on many issues, but not necessarily an indicator of mutual respect.
EretzHaK: Exactly what simcha613 said. It may have been a terrible idea, and I’m not endorsing or opposing it, but to say it actively said “Toeivah is ok” is not correct.
Mods, please remove EretzHaK’s lies, as they are completely disgusting motzi Shem ra. The event may have been bad, but it was NOT in support of toeivah CH”V. It was to recognize the challenges those with homosexual desires face and to empathize with their suffering. Absolutely not to support the action of toeivah.
I hope all those arguing here are doing it l’sheim shomayim. When lies are presented, however, it makes me wonder.
Hakatan: there is a very famous picture of Rav Aharon and Rav Soloveitchik together at a Chinuch Atzmai dinner. I don’t know if I’m allowed to post the link, but someone who was at the event saw the way they interacted with each other and describes how, Rav Aharon and Rav Soloveitchik respected each other. Again, they most definitely disagreed, but they had much respect for one another.
Also, again, I really think many of these quotes are taken out of context or misinterpreted.
And as to the mixed events: Who is denying that they are done on purpose? For those who believe that it is ok, the events are absolutely fine. I don’t think you understand the nature of these events if you believe it is “pritzus”. And again, if one’s personal belief is that it is not permitted, they would never be forced to attend.
There is not, and never has been, a “gay tolerance club” at YU. There used to be a tolerance club that disbanded several years ago, and it is my understanding that this club was not CH”V supporting arayos, but rather trying to help those who do suffer from such challenges (something along the lines of “hate the sin, not the sinner”). Either way, it does not exist any more after an event several years back had a lot of negative backlash, and to say it still exists or that it was in support of toeivah (which you didn’t say, just implied) is motzi sheim ra of a high degree.
DaMoshe: It would be a nice intention theoretically, but my understanding is that Rabbi Lamm never seriously said that one should make a bracha; it was a completely theoretical idea which he disproves, which is found in his book Torah Umadda (which I have not read; this is my understanding) Also, your last point is Rabbi Lamm’s own.
Hakatan, the “events, etc.” are not all mixed. Many are, yes, but it is absolutely and simply not a “co-ed experience”. You can spend many years at YU without ever being forced to socialize with the opposite gender, and those who believe that is improper to do so, don’t.
You should be aware that there isn’t a “klal” for YU’s hashkafa. There is a variety.
Last point: No one is claiming YU/MO is perfect or doesn’t make mistakes. There can be things done which are improper. However, to say that as a whole it is illegitimate (or Amalek, or AZ, or a deviation, or whatever else) is what I take issue with.
In regard to the gedolim quotes, especially since many were compiled after death, I find it hard to believe that they are being interpreted correctly. (Ex: the “MO is like conservative/reform” quote is in Mishnas Aharon, which is a posthumous compilation of different sayings/ hespedim from Rav Aharon zt”l, if I am informed correctly) Especially in light of the fact that is well known that Rav Aharon zt”l and Rav Soloveitchik zt”l had tremendous respect for each other, as evidenced through stories, pictures and writings. They could be hyperbolic rhetoric (ex: statements that kippa Sruga communities are “Amalek” CH”V; or the previous quotes that RZ is “AZ”, which obviously is not meant literally) or based on misinformation. Even if they are interpreted correctly, as stated before, MO is often used as a term for those who simply don’t know or just don’t keep Halacha, and the majority who do and properly deserve the term MO are payed little attention to.
There have been and are BH so many gedolim produced by and in support of the MO viewpoint. Even if you don’t like their hashkafa, are they REALLY kofrim? Do you (or more importantly, the gedolim [not to say you aren’t one! I don’t know]) mean that with all of your heart? It’s a hard road to take. Those who disrespect Rav Soloveitchik, I’m guessing, have never drank from his wellsprings of torah and don’t know/choose to ignore his great impact on all of frum yidishkeit.
This is a pointless argument, in the effect that those biased against MO will most probably not change their opinion for any reason. They don’t have to. But it would be nice for some serious consideration to occur, something which I feel won’t hurt anybody.
golfer: I don’t understand what you intend by that post. That we should stay apart and keep our distance? Chas V’shalom! That goes against the very grain of the idea of achdus: k’ish echad b’lev echad! On the contrary, especially now that we all have so many enemies that try to destroy us, we must do all we can to ascertain unity: having the same goals, working together and feeling as one am yisrael, not splintered and scattered among the nations, but one loving whole.
mw13: no, it’s not. It’s only in response to people who call for “distinctions” between MO and others, and that consider any other derachim than theirs illegitimate!
Sam, I think it must be so liberating. Stroke of a keyboard and you’re the only legitimate opinion!
Hakatan, what “distinction” do you want? Are MO deniers of the 13 ikarim or people who don’t keep halacha CH”V? Or maybe, there’s just another derech to which you aren’t accustomed to. You don’t need to agree; there are gedolim on either side, and eilu v’eilu divrei elokim chaim. You don’t write off chasidim/litvaks/sephardim/ any segment of frum judaism (whichever one you’re not) because they aren’t exactly the same as you. Whatever happened to machlokes l’sheim shomayim?
One of my ultimate wishes is that we should get over our tiny, insignificant differences and be b’achdus forever.
Quoted from the webiste of Jewish Action (the OU’s magazine):
“Jewish Action, the quarterly magazine publication of the Orthodox Union, serves as a forum for a diversity of legitimate opinions within the spectrum of Orthodox Judaism.”
I think the same idea holds true for the OU in general. It was created and still exists to help the various needs of the entire spectrum of Orthdox Jews in America and beyond, and is staffed with such a diversity, so to call it a blanket term such as yeshivish or M.O. is in my opinion misleading. However, as a general gauge of “political” hashkafa and activism, I would say it does lean towards a more Modern Orthodox view. This, however, should not detract from its legitimacy in the eyes of more yeshivish or chassidish jews, but just the opposite: isn’t it beautiful that we can have at least one frum organization that turns away from the petty diferences between all frum, Orthodox Jews? That even chareidim eat foods with the hashgacha of a mosdos which includes the M.O.? I think it’s precisely that which makes the OU so globally recognized, unique and wonderful at what they do.
Popa: Then I guess you’re also memaharin latzeis 🙂
I heard a cute vort on shnayim mikra. We know it’s hinted to by rashei taivos in the word “shemos”. Why this Parsha specifically? Because now that the bnei yisrael were in galus, they had to be careful that for every “Targum” – indicating the non jewish influences, as Targum is in Aramaic – they had to make sure they had 2x that amount of “mikra”, of jewish culture and influences.
Side point: if we are being are specific and calling it “shemos” like it says in the passuk even though in the form we’re using it should be “shaimos”, why do we say “bamidbar”, and not “bemidbar” as is found in the Chumash? (Not my question, but a good one)
In my previous post, 3rd paragraph 5th line, I meant to say “middos” rather than “kiddos”
I would humbly suggest,
That you try to connect in your mind the small things which you sometimes lose track of, with your overall goal and belief and love for HaShem. I was recently at a Shiur along those lines; it was saying that the minutae of Halacha are not in any way chas veshalom insignificant; they are both the ways that HaShem tests us, and also intrinsically connected with the mitzvah. We know we’re not supposed to eat milk after meat; what makes it meaningful is when we realize that this what HaShem wants us to be doing.
Regarding brachos (as with all mitzvos) it really helps to think: why do we do it? It is so important to feel grateful to Hashem and always WANT to say a bracha. A suggestion I was once give was to focus on the word “atah” in the bracha; we aren’t talking to our parents or friends around us, but DIRECTLY to Hashem alone.
Also, you talk about trying to improve in one area while trying to merely keep up in others. I sometimes feels the same struggle; it is essential to never give up one area of avodas Hashem to further ourselves in another area, as that wouldn’t accomplish anything. I would suggest focusing more on the things you are having trouble doing at all, and in time greater emunah and kiddos will come with it. I mean, when you are ravaging, have as much kavana as you can, but if you feel spending a lot of time thinking about davening makes you so busy you R”L fall in other areas, it is probably better to focus on what aspects you are having trouble with first, and figure out getting to higher levels only once you have the basics 100% covered.
Hatzlachah Rabah in all of your endeavors and in your avodas Hashem (which, by the way, encompasses everything you mentioned, including halachah, tefillah, emunah, middos, etc) and always remember that you WILL get through this, no matter how hard it might seem now.
A quote I like:
“I learned there are troubles of more than one kind. Some come from ahead, others come from behind. But I’ve bought a big bat. I’m all ready, you see. Now my troubles are going to have trouble with me.”
Sam, I quote the kitzur, (siman 18, se’if 13):
??? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ?????-???? ????? […] ?? ????? ?? ????? ??? ???????? ??????, ???? ??????? ?????-???? ?????
I don’t see the third level, could it be someone else mentions it?
Sam, I have no source unfortunately, as I learned this in Halacha and we only mentioned the Gemara outside. But at that time I learned (must be in the Kitzur, that’s what we used) that one must wait until Kedusha to step forward, and anything less is what the Gemara is referring to (unless there is an apparent very pressing need) I also heard this recently from someone else.
Sam, is it really that simple to allow one to take three steps forward immediately? I was taught that the gemara speaks very strongly against it, using words I’d rather not quote…
What happened to gumball’s father? I hope he quit and is ok be”h. Also, it is very impressive, Sam, to listen to 6 hours of R’ Schacter’s shiurim a day, captivating though they may be.
I don’t think it’s a hoax. If you check the patent office website and search for them, you’ll see that the shabbos app and “nisht tzu zein a yid” are actually registered trademarks. That having been said, I still don’t think they’ll be able to work out all the halachic issues, and even if they did, as Oomis said, I wouldn’t find it to be in the spirit of Shabbos for regular people (excluding doctors or other people for whom using a phone is necessary, for whom this might help a great deal.)
Yehudayona, that’s actually not true. She was invented by Yuko Shimizu, a Japanese woman.
Bookworm: For the same reason that Mickey Mouse has a friend who’s a dog (Goofy) and owns a pet dog: It’s a mystery!
Although seriously speaking, my guess is that they want to give characters pets, and what else could they do?August 31, 2014 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm in reply to: How can I contact or meet the Kalover Rebbe in Brooklyn? #1030893
Call 718-782-4553. Address: 188 Hewes street.
Source is the gabbai’s business card
I just read an update from Sanrio (the manufacturers of Hello Kitty) that they meant she doesn’t act like a cat, but she is obviously the personififation ot a cat. Sorry Sam, I guess we’re back where we started 🙂
Sam2: Ani Yavin.
It’s funny: I’ve never heard of chassidish litvisher modern orthodox. Then I realized I probably fit the qualifications.
Sam2: 🙂 Is that near the conservative university?
I would delete all of the anti Modern Orthodox articles and CR threads.
I don’t think the bochurim would socialize with married women. As for unmarried women, R’ Breuer’s position has been mentioned.
It happens to me too, sometimes.
Ah I understand, it’s a derivative of giluy arayos.
I admire the people who posted about people they admire.
As far as I understand, the reason is because it is a distortion of Hashem’s name, starting off as the shem hashem and ending in “shem”. It’s not considered respectful to alter hashem’s real name.
It stopped saying that
Sam2: nice answer.
Why does your post say “posted -1 years ago” on the bottom?
Sam2: Huh. I learned that one can fulfill the mitzvah of remembering yetzias mitzrayim all day, we just set shema as that time. I thought that if you forgot to have in mind by shema, you could be yotze all day. Maybe I’m remembering wrong’.
But what about the other gemara, quoted earlier in this thread, which discusses whether or not lot’s wife has the status of a meis?
Ok. You said that it must be that the melacha is not intended, but by water fountains and refrigerators, it is intended. So why are they allowed? (I know you think water fountains aren’t allowed)
Question: How could the Ralbag say it was the land that turned to salt, if the gemara implies it was lot’s wife?
Oh, I understand now. Can’t you be somech geula l’tfilla another way? There’s some mentions in veyatziv.
Also, what about an ones? Can he say it at all (before chatzos)?
Sam2: So because there’s a chance that the fridge might not turn on, it’s ok?
And what’s a psik reisha?
Ok, ok so I admit it’s a bad idea.
Off topic question: why do some people write “hash-m”? It’s not Hashem’s real name, so why can’t it be written out?
I forgot to mention where I took “kadonag” from: it’s mentioned in kabolas shabbos.
Sam2: As with countless other subjects, I am completely ignorant about this (and that’s not humbleness!) so I wasn’t saying my opinion, just quoting.
Can you explain why you don’t agree? Because refrigerators’ motors don’t always turn on, while water fountains’ do?
Sam2, I thought my question was a little different: what I’m trying to say is, which halacha trumps: not learning on Tisha B’Av or keeping the nusach of davening? I suppose it’s a given that after zman tefilla one shouldn’t say it, but about within zman tefilla?
Yes, it’s part of davening, but it’s also part of Chumash, which is Assur to learn on Tisha B’Av. So my question was, what takes precedence: the fact that it’s part of davening, or the fact that learning is assur?