Lilmod Ulelamaid

“I was not referring to the comment about shidduchim posts. I actually did not see a problem with your original comment in the context in which it was written. However, I am a bit unsure about the second post (in which ironically you were asking if I thought it was a problem the first time).”

“Chareidim may think they’re getting a Badatz hechsher, but in reality, are getting the regular Rabbunut.”

From what I understand, the difference between a Badatz (meaning Chareidi) hashgacha and a Rabbanut hashgacha does not necessarily have to do with the Mashgiach himself but rather with the standards that the place is required to comply with in order to receive the hashgacha. In other words, the same mashgiach could be willing to give the same place a Rabbanut hashgacha but not a Chareidi hashgacha if their standards make them eligible for one but not the other.

You can see this from the fact that there is such a thing as Rabbanut Yerushalayim and Rabbanut Yerushalayim L’Mehadrin. I assume the mashgichim are the same (or could be), but there are different standards.

When I have had to attend Simchas that had a Rabbanut hashgacha or had to eat out at Rabbunut restaurants with relatives, people have told me that I could ask the mashgiach what foods I could eat. Personally, that seemed strange to me (and I never checked that out with someone I trust), so I just stuck to good old Coca Cola or Pepsi Cola (but not the diet since that had herbs or something floating in it to differentiate it from the regular soda).

However, I do think that “lesser” was the correct word, and I will explain why.

First though, I have to explain what the word “lesser” means and does not mean in this context. There are two types of “lesser”. One is what I would call subjectively lesser and one I will call objectively lesser. Subjectively lesser refers to things such as intelligence level, social skills and knowledge. Objectively lesser means that a person is not as good a person.

A person’s objective goodness is based on the extent to which they use their bechira and therefore can only be measured by Hashem, since no one knows anyone else’s potential.

Subjective lesserness is not a reflection of how good someone is. It is simply a measure of the abilities that Hashem gave the person (in certain areas) and is not necessarily in the person’s control and therefore is not a reason for someone to think less of anyone else.

How good a person is has to do with the difference between their actions and their potential. Therefore, if two people have the same actions but one is lesser in terms of subjective greatness, this would actually mean that he is greater in terms of objective greatness.

As the Ramban points out in The Igeres HaRamban, if you are greater than someone else, you should not look down on them; this simply means that you have greater responsibilites.

So if two people are performing the same actions but one has more potential, this actually means he is “lesser” in the way that really counts.

I used to refrain from ever thinking that I was “better” (ie: blessed with more abilities in any area) since it seemed to be snobby, and I thought it was wrong to think that way. However, I realized at a certain point that that is simply not the correct approach, and thinking that way was actually more likely to lead to my thinking badly of others.

A person has to be aware of his talents (while acknowledging that they are from Hashem and not his own doing), so that he can be aware of his additional responsibilities (as the Ramban points out).

Likewise, it is sometimes necessary to be aware of other’s shortcomings in order not to expect too much for them and to be able to judge them favorably and in order to understand them better.

You are not doing someone else a favor if you expect things from them that they are not capable of. For example, if you are more intelligent than someone else, it is very important to realize that when you are dealing with them so that you don’t assume that something is obvious to them just because it’s obvious to you (a mistake that I often make). It is not nice to the person to do that because then you assume that they were deliberately being mean when they might not have been.

“If people are being less frum than you – ie., doing things you feel are wrong, you have every right to be upset. That’s the way it should be.”

Maskim, but on the other hand if they are not actually doing something wrong, but simply haven’t gotten up to your level yet in some area (for example, they don’t daven with as much kavana as you do, although they are trying), then Sam2 would be right.

And that might be similar to the way in which the “more Frum” people are “more Frum”. In other words, I think that MW13 was referring to a case in which the way he is doing things is fine, but someone else reached a higher level in that area. Alternatively, they simply have a different idea than him about what the ideal behavior is, but neither one is clearly wrong or right, and theirs has the appearance of being “Frummer”.

The opposite of either of these should not bother him.

“As Jews, throughout biblical and rabbinic literature, we claim superiority.”

We claim that Hashem chose us, and if we are “better”, it is only because we were chosen by Hashem.

This is something that the Torah clearly says and not something that we “claim”. To my knowledge, the Torah does not say that about any other group. There may be characteristics that are more likely to be found in certain groups, but I don’t think it ever says that each person in a particular group has to have that characteristic (although maybe I’m wrong).

The only possible exception I can think of is Amalek, but even with Amalek, I don’t think it’s so clear-cut. For one thing, b’nei Haman are learning Torah in B’nei Brak, so there clearly are exceptions. Also, I think there is an opinion that Amalek is not genetic but rather, a certain type of person.

“Would you think it’s a good thing to be “secure enough in your own Judaism” to not be perturbed if somebody is doing something “less frum” than you? What’s the difference?”

If “less frum” means that they are doing something against the Torah, then you should be bothered by it. Otherwise, you shouldn’t.

Well in that case we were talking about different things. And I stand by what I said.

btw, I responded to you a few days ago on the “obscure Frum music” thread. I would appreciate it if you could read it when you have a chance.

Thank you.

Yekke, I’m not 100% of your point. Did you think there was a stalemate here? I do not see it that way. I think that I made some points that you did not refute.

“Sometimes the aim isn’t ביקוש האמת, and therefore there is no point trying to explain my point more than I already did.”

Are you talking about this case or making a general statement? If you are referring to this case, my aim is definitely ביקוש האמת

“But when I think someone is trying to understand my point rather than trying to refute it, I try explain it clearer.”

I would like to understand what your point is, particularly with regards to safeik sakana and vadai sakana.

“I can’t answer your point until I know your position in my question”

Since I answered as best as I could, would you now be able to answer the question?

Thank you.

MW – I wrote “think” for a reason. I do not know for sure that the Gedolim are against it.

There was an article in one of the magazines (Mishpacha or Binah) a few years ago, and I think it quoted some Gedolim on the topic, if you have a way to get ahold of the article.

“LU: His mistake is already on the internet….anyone who listens to that talk and knows their pesukim hears the mistake.”

That wouldn’t help since there are many people who have not listened to his talk.

RY – maskim. Looking at things from a Torah perspective means that while on the one hand, you don’t automatically accept things because they come from Freud,etc, neither do you automatically disregard them just because Freud or whoever agreed with them.

If it is in fact a Torah hashkafa, which I believe it is, that means that it predated Freud and that he actually got it from the Torah (although it may have been indirectly).

Someone I know told me that he once asked Rav Matisyahu Salomon shlita about the concept that if we see that there is chachma amongst the Goyim, we should believe it (I can’t remember the exact phrase, but I think it’s from Chazal). I think his question may have been, “How can there be chachma outside of Torah?” The Mashgiach Shlita’s response was that any chachma the goyim have that is really emes they got from the Torah.

A very high percentage of psychology theorists are Jewish, so it is reasonable to assume that many of their ideas are based on Torah, although of course, many are complete kefira, so one must be very careful.

In terms of this specific idea, I think that it is completely based on Torah, and I think that one could probably find many sources to support it.

MW13 & Chaver: I was contrasting it with the example given in the op and explaining why the two cases are different and therefore it is legitimate for someone to relate to both cases differently.

“My limited view notwithstanding, the Gedolim have (apparently) come out against it.”

That is really the bottom-line and the reason why the two are different. That is to say if it is correct that the Gedolim are against it. If they aren’t, then perhaps the two cases are not different.

” Just because you think Gedolim assur it does not make it bad”

Say what? If your meaning is that if I think the Gedolim assur it but I am wrong (and they don’t in fact assur it), then it’s not bad, then you are right, of course. I thought that was clear from the way I phrased things. And I really hope that’s what you meant.

I actually do it all the time, but it’s not something most people would realize since I do it in an entirely different way. I also don’t announce that I’m doing it, since it would defeat the purpose of why I’m doing it.

I was under the impression (although I could be wrong) that the reasons why people come out so strongly against burquas, as well as the reasons why they are different than the example given in the op are as follows:

1. I think that many Gedolim may have come out against it.

2. It is something that is done publicly, and VERY publicly at that, since you can’t really avoid seeing it.

3. I think they are trying to convince others to do the same.

4. I think that many feel that it is actually very untznius.

5. Many feel that it is coming from unhealthy attitudes towards tznius.

6. There is a real danger that many people might copy them and develop and spread these unhealthy attitudes if the Gedolim and the oilam do not come out against it. I can really see this because I know that when I read articles about it, I do notice myself being drawn to it on some emotional level.
This does not happen when I read about pictures of 4 year olds being blurred. This is one of the reasons why I think it’s coming from something unhealthy, because you do not usually feel yourself being “emotional drawn” to tznius. I think it comes from the fact that the Burqa wearers quoted in the articles I read had a very cultish mentality that came through in the articles.

LB – what? What did I call first? And how are you feeding fish in a fish bowl? And who are you thanking? And for what?

Regarding your question about safek Sakana vs. vadai sakana, I know nothing about the halachic definitions of these terms or the halachic ramifications. But how is this relevant to the discussion?

In any case, he is obligated to protect himself in such a case even if he does not believe the l”h.

Are you saying that someone is only obligated to protect himself in a case of vadai sakana? That doesn’t sound right to me, but like I said, I don’t know anything about these halachos. If that is what you are saying, do you have a source?

Mammele – that’s not exactly the way I see it, or at least I don’t think it’s the whole picture, although it might be part of it. I think she is looking for encouragement to do what she knows is the right thing to do but finds too difficult to do.

On the other hand, because it is so hard for her, she gets defensive when she is given the encouragement she is seeking and switches back to the other side.

I could be wrong. There really is no way to know, because l’maaseh this is something exceedingly difficult for her.

Hi Mod 100! I was wondering where you were – we haven’t heard from you in a while.

One of the Baalei HaTosfos was named Peter.

Someone mocked him by asking him, “Where is your name in the Torah?”

“Right after yours – “פטר חמור””

Changed your mind?

This was less than 24 hours ago on the Shidduchim for those with a past. post # 1254926 I believe.

But then again the increasing divorce rate is helping to get rid of that problem.

“Youve been around a while”

Now that’s nice to hear 🙂 I was getting tired of being told that I’m a newcomer. I was wondering when my newbie status would be over.