Lilmod Ulelamaid

LessChumras: “You keep conflating registration with being drafted and claiming it is assur. Do you realize that it is only one Rav who is creating the a problem? If registration is assur, how do you explain the past 40 years all the roshai yeshivas who allowed, and continue to allow, their students to register?”

Lesschumras – you are completely misquoting/misunderstanding me. I never even discussed whether or not it’s assur to register. I explained what I wrote 3 times. I will try again.

I was pointing out (in response to someone else’s comment) that the government is</> doing something assur. The assur thing that they are doing is having an army that is not run according to halacha and drafting Jewish boys to an army that is not run according to halacha. They do draft Jewish boys to the army. I don’t know how anyone can deny that.

“The Army is about everyone being equal”

That is precisely the problem that the Torah world has with the army.

boyswork – If all I knew about this matter was the information in this thread, I would probably agree with you 100%. However, if you have been following Rebshidduch’s other threads and posts, I suspect that you might have a different opinion.

There are people/cases in which meeting on one’s own is fine. Likewise, there are situations in which going out with an OTD boy is fine. However, there are cases in which both of these are seriously problematic. This is one of those situations (based on previous threads).

Yekke2 – do you really have friends who seem to be reshaim? That is so sad. Wondering how you got to be friends with them in the first place. I guess it’s the generation.
Are you sure that they don’t have issues that you don’t know about? People who work with kids who are OTD say that a huge percentage have been abused. That’s something that you wouldn’t necessarily be aware of.

Avi k – when my brother was in the army, the chayalim in his unit/base used lachmaniot for the afikomen for the Pesach Seder. Fortunately, he had gotten off for leil haSeder, but they told him about it afterwards.

There are tons of problems with tznius in the army. Chayalim have been forced to listen to kol isha, there are women soldiers and officers around, etc. Roshei Yeshivas in the Hesder world have complained about these issues many times and threatened to stop sending boys to the army.

When my friend’s brother was in Nachal Chareidi, the army did many things that they weren’t supposed to such as having women officers on their base and sending foods that did not have the required hashgacha.

Many boys stop being Frum in the army.

There are definitely problems with the way the army is run. Again, I am not discussing what the response should be, but the army is definitely not run according to halacha.

bk613- no one said that the government is run according to halacha. What I said is that it is not run according to halacha and they are doing something wrong by having a government that is not run according to halacha.

“If you choose to live in Israel you are bound by its laws”

Sorry, but you can’t just make up halachos like that. According to many Poskim, you are not required to follow the laws of the State even when the laws in question are not against the Torah, and according to all Poskim, you are not allowed to follow the Medina’s laws when they go against the Torah.

Yekke2 – is that a good idea? I mean if you really think that something is against the Torah, are you allowed to try to pretend you think it’s true and to try to provide convincing arguments for it?

It happens to be that both in real life and online, whenever people are arguing one side too strongly, I usually do present the other side (in either direction), but that is because/when I think there is some truth to both sides, not because I was deliberately saying something that I thought wasn’t true.

misteryudi – I agree with you that if people never thought things through clearly and never tried to see both sides, that it’s a good idea to do so. But what about those people who have thought through the issues clearly, have spoken to people on both sides of the fence, and perhaps even originally thought the other way before they researched the matter enough and thought it through enough and came to the conclusion that this is the correct point of view and perhaps the only point of view according to the Torah? Is it really such a good idea in that case to try to present
the other side of view?

Maybe it’s even assur to do so. There is a concept in Torah hashkafa of staying away from negative influences. The only way it is mutar to read things that are not according to Torah hashkafa is if you are trying not to be influenced by it – not if you are.

At the same time, I do agree that when presented with a different point of view that is not clearly against the Torah, one should think about it and not be closed to the possibility that the other person is right or partially right and you may be wrong or partially wrong, but that does not seem to be what you are saying.

Of course, if you are talking about issues that are not Torah related, it is different, but I think most of the topics raised in the CR are (except for the American politics ones).

I’m just raising the possible problems with doing this, although I suppose it depends how it’s done.

Sorry Iacisrmma – I accidentally left the “r” out of your name.

Some people aren’t following the rules. The rules state that you have to mention a state not already mentioned.

Iacismma – it doesn’t necessarily follow that the reason she would set him up with her friend instead is because she thinks he’s not good enough for her.

Even it is, I’m not sure that’s a problem. If I don’t think a guy is Frum enough or smart enough for me, why shouldn’t I set him up with a friend who is less Frum or less smart than me? (obviously one has to be very careful how they go about it so the person isn’t offended, but if one could do it in a way they are sure the person won’t be, I don’t see the problem).

On the other hand, if there is a real concern that the guy may be a bad influence on the friend, then it may be assur according to halacha. There are halachos about not setting someone up with someone who you think might be bad for them.

lesschumras- mw13 answered the second point very well.

Regarding the first point, I have already addressed this twice, but in case I wasn’t clear, I will try to explain for a third time. Israel is different than the US. In the US, there is not a national draft, and everyone is not drafted. In Israel, the law is that EVERYONE is required to go to the army unless they receive a deferment or an exemption. They have to apply for a deferment or an exemption in order to get out of going to the army. This is against halacha since they shouldn’t be required to go to the army in the first place and therefore shouldn’t have to request a deferment or an exemption from something they are not allowed to do in the first place.

It has always bothered me that girls (for whom it would be assur to go to the army no matter how the army is run) are required to apply for an exemption to the army based on RELIGIOUS reasons. Like, hello, we all have the same religion!!! They should not have get an exemption based on their religion if the government is a Jewish government!!! They should not be drafted in the first place and neither should boys. Both are assur!!! They should not need an exemption or a deferment for something that is assur and shouldn’t be a consideration.

Whether or not they are specifically told by the army that they are being drafted before they get the exemption or deferment is irrelevant because either way they know that they are and that they need to register in order to receive the deferment (which again is not an exemption). But in any case, I just realized that I know that they are. When my brother was 18, he was drafted by the army, and given 48 hours (it’s possible they extended it to 72, but it wasn’t more than that) to decide if he wanted to go or not.

And again, I think the main issue that Peleg is concerned about is the fact that the government did make a law removing army deferments and by registering, they are in danger of actually being drafted to the army (w/o a deferment) if the law is changed again.

Again, I am not talking about what the response should be. For that, one must ask a sheilah. I am also not judging the government. But the fact is that they are doing something assur, and one’s disagreement with Peleg should not blind one to the fact that the government is doing something wrong. People are so quick to judge other Frum Jews for the way they deal with a secular government that they forget that being a secular government in the first place is a bigger problem.

If you want to be “dan l’kaf zchus” the government (in the sense that they are confused and don’t realize this is a problem) that is wonderful, but don’t let that blind you to the fact that their actions are wrong.

And why not use the same “dan l’kaf zchus” powers towards Peleg as well? Aren’t they also Jews and don’t they also deserve to be judged favorably as well as a secular government that passes laws against the Torah?

MW13 – +1. thank you.

lesschumras – I’m sorry, but I think that you are the one lacking knowledge here. I have been living in Eretz Yisrael for nearly 3 decades so I am fairly familiar with the way the government and army work. All boys and girls who are Israeli citizens get drafted when they are 18.

If they have a reason for exemption or deferment, they have to obtain an exemption or a deferment. Yeshiva Bochurim get a deferment, not an exemption, and they have to go back each year to reregister until a certain age at which point they are exempt. During the years of the deferment, they are still subjagated to the army (since it’s a deferment and not an exemption), which means, for example, that they can not leave the country unless they request and obtain permission from the army/government, and even then, they can only leave for a set amount of time.

If I am incorrect about anything I wrote, it was semantics and irrelevant. It is possible that I was wrong in using the terminology “drafted”. I don’t think that I was, but if I was, it does not take away from anything I wrote in my above posts.

I just reread your post, and if what you wrote was correct, then I certainly did not err even regarding semantics. You yourself wrote that they would be considered “draft dodgers” if they didn’t register. That was precisely my point – that they are drafted unless they register. That is against halacha. According to halacha, no Jewish boy should be drafted into an army that does not keep halacha. That is assur. And by the way, this is true regardless of whether or not they are capable of learning full-time for many years.

bk613- I already explained how the government is acting inappropriately. The fact that the army/government isn’t run according to halacha is NOT irrelevant at all – that IS the point!

Israel is not the US – the Israeli government is a Jewish government. We get our ideas of right and wrong from the Torah, and not from the goyim.

“There is a national draft.”

That IS the point. They were not allowed to make that draft in the first place. They did not ask a sheila about it, and as far as I know, no Gadol told them that they were allowed to make it.

Additionally, at one point, they made laws getting rid of the Yeshiva deferment, and they can do so again. I believe that is part of the concern here – that those bochurim who get deferments will be in the system and they can then draft them in the future if they change the law again.

Bramo and Yekke2 – +1,000!

MTAB – whether they are in fact a Kiddush Hashem or not (I don’t know enough to comment on that), the way they are being reported is a Chillul Hashem.

bklynmom – that doesn’t make it permissible for it to be publicized this way.

bk613 – they hold that the government shouldn’t be drafting them in the first place. The government is certainly not acting correctly. The army is not run according to halacha. It should not be run that way in the first place, and certainly, those Jews who do follow halacha should not be drafted. No Gedolim disagree on those points, to my knowledge. As far as I know everyone agrees that the government is acting incorrectly; the only disagreement is regarding what our response should be.

I am not discussing whether or not we should judge them favorably since perhaps they are tinok shenishba, etc. I don’t want to get into that. I am not judging them – I am simply judging their actions. Their actions are clearly wrong.

Is this the same guy but you are going through a shadchan now?

Avram in MD: “Lilmod Ulelamaid, What an excellent post!”

Avram in MD, thanks so much for the compliment.

Yekke: That’s a pretty good summary of my points. Thank you! I would just correct the end of the last sentence: “they can’t take anything negative”. Since I did say that there is a time and place for “hakheh es shinav” even today, I obviously didn’t mean that no one can ever take anything negative, but that in general, most people can’t handle too much criticism.

“Is the only reason they are more fragile simply because we have changed the way we deal with our kids? Is it a direct consequence of our forgiving patient model of Chinuch?”

I don’t know. I think there is truth to Avram’s answer, but there may be other reasons as well, and what you write about may or may not be part of it.

But I’m also not sure how relevant it is. For one thing, once a kid is already older and already overly sensitive and fragile and can’t handle criticism, it is irrelevant if this was caused by a lack of firmness when he was younger.

On the other hand (and this is where there is some relevance to your point) it might be kidai for parents to be more firm when their kids are young so that they don’t get to that point (which perhaps was your point). I do think that (at least to some degree) parents should exercise more firmness when their kids are young and less firmness once their kids are adolescents and older. Often, parents do things the other way around, but I think that is backwards (although I’ve never been a parent, so I may be wrong).

Part of the problem though is that a parent can’t be strict unless he knows how to do it with love. And many people today don’t know how to do that. I have a friend who is super-nice and does not know how to discipline her kids. Once when one of her boys got in trouble in Yeshiva for being chutzpakid or something, she explained to the Rosh Yeshiva that it’s her fault because she is too lenient with her kids. He told her that he has seen both ways (parents who are too lenient and parents who are too strict) and the first way is better. L’maaseh, her kids seem to be turning out pretty good, so he is probably right.

There is another reason your point might not be as relevant as one would think (although it does have some relevance as stated above). That is that to some degree this may just be the reality of our generation. We are an emotionally fragile generation (and I am talking about the entire generation, not just Jews or Frum Jews). We are products of the world around us, and while we have to try not to be influenced by certain things, we also have to deal with the reality that we are products of time and places that we live in to a large extent. We have to take that reality and figure out what the Torah response is to that reality, but to a certain extent we have to accept that that is our reality.

In other words, even if the cause of our emotional weakness is the fact that parents are too lenient, that doesn’t necessarily mean that that is something that can be completely changed. The parents at this point are themselves too emotionally weak to know how to discipline. I guess what I’m saying is that: 1. There isn’t one simple reason for our emotionally weak state. It is based on many factors inclucing the galus, and the goyish influence, etc, etc. and 2. At this point, it is the reality of our generation, and I don’t think it can be changed. Every generation has its own identity and this is ours. I’m not sure how much the cause matters.

I didn’t respond to all your points yet, but this post is long enough. Feel free to summarize it for me. You seem to be pretty good at that!

arguments in the CR – chocolate

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