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Also, TLIK, to come out with a new Halochic status of “chole regashi” is a tremendous chiddush. This category does not exist in the classical sourses.
TLIK, please, pay attention. The Satmar Dayanim were talking about Halochic issues which can be relevant in this area. It may be that the other Gedolim were not talking about kofrim and so on etc. There is a difference between a trouble maker who does aveiros and a min. It also makes a difference in hanhogah which case you are talking about. How about a fellow who became frei 12 years ago, moved out and doesn’t keep in touch? You can’t dismiss the Satmar Dayonim’s opinon without going through their seifer and showing how their proofs are wrong.
TLIK, whatever Rav Schteineman said, it doesn’t mean that the Satmar Dayonim don’t know what they are talking about, and there’s no room to say what they said.
Joseph, TLIK is a lady — it is clear from the way she writes.
TLIK, you are not a TALMID CHOCHAM, and you are not in a position to argue with the Satmar Dayonim. Rambam says that if someone became a kofer and he is not a tinok she’nisbah (meaning brought up not frum), we as a community do not accept him be’teshuvah (even though Ha’SHem does, at least according to one pshat).
TLIK, there is no such a status in these Halochos as a choleh. If someone is Halochically insane (a shoteh), then he is patur. If not, he is a mumar. There can be a mumar with a limud zechus on him – fine, but he is still a mumar. I am not telling you what to do, I am just explaining to you such a person’s Halochic status.
Little that I know, many statements- not true.
As you can not accuse the Chazon Ish, you can’t accuse the Satmar Dayanim either.Takes2…, ridiculous! Look in seifer “Chofetz Chaim “ in the first couple of chapters.
Chabadshlucha, your pshat in kadesh es atzmecha is not the pshat of the Rishonim. It’s also dangerous as it places an obligation on every Yid to grow in levels of chassidus – it was not meant for everyone.
Your last paragraph I didn’t understand 100%.Little I know, I was not necessarily speaking what to do le’ma’ase. I was just addressing the wrong hashkofic statements and the twisting of the Torah. One name? Look in Rambam, Hilchos Teshuvah where he speaks about the greatness of teshuvah and there he describes how HKB’H views a sinner before he does teshuvah. (I don’t remember which perek off hand.) What to do practically under the circumstances is one question, but theoretically if there is a need for pressure to be applied to the ba’al aveirah there are plenty of sources for that.
Little I know, remember Pinchas ben Elozar ben Aharon Ha’Kohen?
1. Not all motivations are good. 2. Kedoshim tihyu just means not engaging in very big ta’avos.
To go to higher levels the fear doesn’t help because one does not get punished or gets a roshah label for not going there.
The little I know, your Western society attitude in not in accordance with the Torah. A transgressor is not as much of a child of HKBH. We are his law enforcement officers, just in this country we can’t do it.
Chabadshlucha, keeping away from issurim and doing all the obligatory mitsvos properly is already a really big thing. Your mashalim don’t help in situations where one has a serious yetzer hara to do something one is not supposed to do.
It’s not only fear of punishment- it’s also fear of being labeled “a rashah” in Heaven.
SHY, I didn’t mean his level of observance, but rather the level of his neshomah.
Seychal HaYashar, the 20 old statement is not to be taken literally.
I’ll tell I would not have become frum and progressed further if not for yiras ha’onesh.Seychal HaYashar, simple folk today are not on the spiritual level of Rambam’s am’aratzim. Yeridas ha’doros…
I meant many of the other motivations would not move me.
Chabadshlucha, I am such a person. And on the contrary the many of the other motivations would move me. I agree with Joseph.
Sechel HaYahar, that Rambam is meant for ba’alei madreigah, and we are speaking of simple folk here.Bitul Torah, I meant. Auto spell check 🙁
Typical Joseph. Granted Rabbi Miller held like that. I don’t know if Chafetz Chaim did. Chazal don’t appear to imply like that. Okay, but you should not let your friendships lead to botulism Torah either.
Zahavasdas, Aharon never entered E. Yisroel.
Gaon, you are wrong as far as historical facts go. Secular European Jews in Germany, Austro-Hungary etc. either did not believe in G-d (most of them) or did not believe that he gave us the Torah. Secular Eastern European Jews were Socialists, Communists, secular Maskilim who did not believe in God.
Gaon, being a koifer is not better than being a Christian. The aversion to conversion is an emotional/historic reality, but according to Halochah it doesn’t hold true (except for chezkas yichus).
I also follow the principle that if someone is exposed to Yiddishkeit enough, he loses the tinok she’nishba status, but an extenuating circumstance it definitely is ( not being brought up frum).Gaon, to start with: I wrote that he and his parents, mestama, did not believe in G-d.
Yihusdik, what kind of an outrageous claim is this – that matrilineal descent was not followed?
CS, it wasn’t too heavily Kabbalistic.
Gaon, Hertzl was born, as we are told, into a secular European family- meaning they didn’t believe in G-d or kept anything and didn’t mind intermarring. It is not, Halochically speaking better than conversion. And again, bear in mind the circumstances of his upbringing.
Gaon, if they violate pretty much everything, it’s not much better. It’s called a mumar for all of the Torah. Plus, I explained already where those Ashkenazim come from, and the Sefardi way of being frei is also based on a major chesoron.
Litvishechossid, my arguments are not weak- it’s just you have to be willing to listen. Change the attitude. But now, let me elaborate: 1)Believing the Orthodox way and doing anything you want is not much better than Reform. It’s just that the Ashkenazim are more din-type of people- they don’t like to think they are doing something wrong. That’s why they may be tempted to even say kefirah to justify themselves. The Sefardim have no such problems – for them “we have yetzer ha’ra” is enough of a reason. 2)About the sheitls. If a woman follows her Rov who holds they are ok, she fulfills her obligation. I know there is a problem nowadays that most of them look too good, but those Poskim hold it doesn’t negate her fulfilling of the obligation. I find it galling that Sefardim should be talking about tznius. The officially Orthodox but not erlache Sefardim violate the laws of modesty in a much more flagrant way than the Ashkenazim of the same type.
Litvishechossid, i did not want to talk about it, but if it is necessary, i will. First of all, it is best to avoid these type of arguments for the sake of sholom, but if there is a need to answer/know for yourself:
1. Reform? Non-erlache Sefardim can be Reform without declaring themselves Reform — they just go and do anything they want without much explanation or attempting to justify themselves;
2. Sheitels? Some Sedardi Poskim allowed them also. Plus, it is better to use a sheitel than go with uncovered hair, you know. Also, prancing around immodestly dressed is not okay either.
3. There never was intermarriage by frum Ashkenazim. By frei there was. Yes, it is true Sefardim usually have inborn emunah and warm feelings towards Torah and mitzvos, but they ‘compensate” by being lax in keeping it.
4.Rosh wrote that we, the Ashkenazim, have a strong mesorah from the times of the Beis Ha’Mikdash.edited
Redleg, according to you how the difference in looks between different nations came about? It has not been that long since the time of Noach.
Joseph, there is a mishna in Negoim which says that a Yid’s skin is lighter than an African’s skin, but darker than that of a German.
Litvishechossid, #1 spelling everything out won’t help anything, so, I am keeping quiet; #2 the Iranian Jews also look like Ashkenazim.Litvisherchossid, I have what to answer about the Yiddishkeit part, but we are dealing with a shailah of limud kategoria on Klal Yisroel. So, it has to be a really valid reason for us to speak about it.
Litvisherchossid, most Ashkenazim don’t have light hair. Darker skin color is more prevalent in people from southern, sunny countries. As simple as that.
Litvishchossid, most Russian and Polish Jews do not have blue/green eyes.
Joseph, I read that actually the Ashkenazim came from Bovel and Sefardim – from Eretz Yisroel.
Gaon, this is how other Achronim learn it with the Brisker Rov’s girsa.
Gaon, as far as the Peirush Ha”Mishnayos goes, I have to look it up, but in the Yad he clearly does not go like that. He says that Tzedukim who have not been exposed to Yiddishkeit are anusim and tinokos she’nishbu. The ”ein lemaher lehargan” goes on those who were exposed to Yiddishkeit. And we follow the Yad over the Peirush Ha’Mishnayos. And this is how the Achronim learn it. Read the Rambam carefully, you’ll see it is meduyak be’lshono.
5ish, do you seriously believe that it’s impossible to daven properly before the z’man? It sounds very, very shver.
Gaon, as a side point, that’s not what Rav Chaim Brisker meant. Otherwise, Tzedukim who were never exposed to real Yiddishkeit would not be considered tinokos she’nishbu.
5ish, by the Mussar movement there were less alarming signs, and, consequently, they were never put in cherem, and to a small degree there were problems later (see “Emunah ve’Bitochon” by Chazon Ish).MoshiachChat, I meant what I wrote. Namely, that you don’t need to be a huge Gadol to read a Rambam about Moshiach properly. And even if some famous Gadol tries to say some very shver pshat in it, a learned, but not famous, individual can disagree with that pshat.
Put down the gun, that point was just an additional snif – the main reason was stated before. Plus, the Rebbe has 39 volumes of chiddushim on sugyos Ha’Shas? I have never heard about it.
MoshiachChat and Chabadshluchah, 2 things:
1. Quoting different Gedolim who said big compliments about the Rebbe carries little weight- they were were very nice and humble people who would compliment other Rabbis.
2. MochiachChat, even if an Achron says a pshat in something and a learned person (who is not officially a famous Rabbi) finds it very shver, he is allowed to disagree (depending on the circumstances). Reading a Rambam about Moshiach is such a case. It is very straightforward. Plus, the Rebbe was not known as a huge Gadol ba’Torah on the level of Rav Aharon Kotler or Rav Akiva Eiger.B-P, as far as “the baseless accusations” go, I believe I have written enough to prove my point.
Sechel HaYashar, you can’t, but see my post addressed to Bratzki Poretz. That obligation applies only to men though.
B-P, one must try to learn all of the Torah. I am not familiar with what Lubavitchers learn first hand, but that’s the reputation that they have (unlike other Chassidim). Do Lubavitcher ba’alei batim also learn Gemorah seriously?
Bratzki Poretz, I didn’t call anybody a cult. I just explained the reason for the disapproval expressed by the Misnagdim regarding Chassidism, and particularly Chabad and Breslav.
Also if someone keeps all the mitsvos, but has heretical beliefs, such a person is a heretic. That is not to say the majority of the Lubavitchers are heretics.
Also, you don’t really fulfill your obligation of limud Ha’Torah by learning Tanya and ChiTaS only.