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Som1, I believe there is no need for further discussions. YOUR WORDS SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES!
Som1, how about Trump dismissing the virus at the beginning, wanting to open the country before it was safe to do so, claiming that the US did a better job containing the virus than others?!? Who caused the outbreak down South if not Trump and his rightwing pals? What was the story with that convention that Trump was planning to have in Florida? And then the Republican reshoim go and try to pick on Fauchi’s words to make an idiot out of him and invalidate everything he says? Sure, Carlson and and co. know more about science and medicine than the best doctors!
To believe that a departed Rabbi is the Moshiach is not apikorsus or idol worship. This much is clear from the Gemora. To belive that he is a part of God is apikorsus.
Philosopher, true â the same applies to severe suffering in this world. Plus, again, being in Gehenom is not like just swallowing one bitter pill for a second.
Coffee addict, it doesnât mean He loved them. And how about Tehillim 11:5:ââ … and rasha and the one who loves hamas His Soul hates.ââ
CS, very niceâ some Kabbolah source which who knows what it means.Coffee addict, no, He does not. He doesnât love Hitler. He doesnât love Yerovam ben Navat. He hates reshoim.
Again, Gehenom is not just hurting somebody â it it tremendous suffering. Plus, He established all the rules. Why did not He establish just cleansing people without inflicting pain on them?My point is that administering justice is a purpose also. HaâSHem has a hanhogah of Judgement also, not only of Kindness. He can set whatever rules he wants. If it is all love, love and love, let the cleansing be completely painless!
P.S.: and those who burn forever, according to you, what is the purpose and where is the love?CS, you compare disciplining and cleaning with Gehenom? Are you serious? Gehenom is terribly, terribly painful. And it is so, because it is a punishment. Again, if it is done out of pure love, let HaâSHem do it painlesslyâ nobody is stopping Him.
CS, if it is done out of great love, why cannot the painful aspect be skipped?
Laskern, yes – hibut haâkever.
Philosopher, from the question posed at the beginning, one may conclude that some people have misconceptions about it.Raboysai, what in the world are you talking about? If you want to view Gehenom as a cleansing process, it is not like taking a shower! It is full of tremendous pain. And the reason for that is that Gehenom is always a punishment. Just it is that better people get punished and then ascend to receive their reward. I know nowadays people donât like to hear about punishment, but the truth must be said.
An aside clarification: neither Lenin or Stalin were Jews. The First may have had a meshumad grandfather. Stalin was a Georgian.
Sorry, I need to correct the typos. I meant to write that the opinion in the Gemora preferring amkus didnât mean to endorse am aratzus and having no yadios.
Also I meant to write that going to a daf yomi shiur is not a proper way to acquire yadios.Truth seeking, you donât need that many years to learn how to learn. You need to acquire the yadios. Going to a daf yomi shiur is not a proper to acquire them.
TAS, having no yadios is not an option. That opinion in the Gemora meant to endorse am aratzus.I strongly protest the OPâs and Josephâs statements !
Chabadshlucha, the key word is “a lot”. Eating a cone of ice cream for one’s own pleasure is not a bitul of “Kedoshim tihyu…”.
Chabadshlucha: 1.I am a Misnaged — i don’t have the Rebbe’s sichos standing on my shelf. So, could you, please, elaborate.
2.Sorry, but you misunderstood me. I meant shitas Ramban and Rabbeinu Bechaya who say that ”Kedoshim tehiyu…” means not going a lot after any permissible pleasure.Chabadshlucha, I don’t disagree much with you. The Shulchan Aruch says one should do mutar things le’shem Shamaim, but if one doesn’t — his action is not praiseworthy (except for one activity, but it is not poshut).
Please, do bring the sources for the ”Kadesh es…”Joseph, +1.
Also, TLIK, to come out with a new Halochic status of “chole regashi” is a tremendous chiddush. This category does not exist in the classical sourses.
TLIK, please, pay attention. The Satmar Dayanim were talking about Halochic issues which can be relevant in this area. It may be that the other Gedolim were not talking about kofrim and so on etc. There is a difference between a trouble maker who does aveiros and a min. It also makes a difference in hanhogah which case you are talking about. How about a fellow who became frei 12 years ago, moved out and doesn’t keep in touch? You can’t dismiss the Satmar Dayonim’s opinon without going through their seifer and showing how their proofs are wrong.
TLIK, whatever Rav Schteineman said, it doesnât mean that the Satmar Dayonim donât know what they are talking about, and thereâs no room to say what they said.
Joseph, TLIK is a lady — it is clear from the way she writes.
TLIK, you are not a TALMID CHOCHAM, and you are not in a position to argue with the Satmar Dayonim. Rambam says that if someone became a kofer and he is not a tinok she’nisbah (meaning brought up not frum), we as a community do not accept him be’teshuvah (even though Ha’SHem does, at least according to one pshat).
TLIK, there is no such a status in these Halochos as a choleh. If someone is Halochically insane (a shoteh), then he is patur. If not, he is a mumar. There can be a mumar with a limud zechus on him – fine, but he is still a mumar. I am not telling you what to do, I am just explaining to you such a person’s Halochic status.
Little that I know, many statements- not true.
As you can not accuse the Chazon Ish, you canât accuse the Satmar Dayanim either.Takes2…, ridiculous! Look in seifer âChofetz Chaim â in the first couple of chapters.
Chabadshlucha, your pshat in kadesh es atzmecha is not the pshat of the Rishonim. Itâs also dangerous as it places an obligation on every Yid to grow in levels of chassidus – it was not meant for everyone.
Your last paragraph I didnât understand 100%.Little I know, I was not necessarily speaking what to do le’ma’ase. I was just addressing the wrong hashkofic statements and the twisting of the Torah. One name? Look in Rambam, Hilchos Teshuvah where he speaks about the greatness of teshuvah and there he describes how HKB’H views a sinner before he does teshuvah. (I don’t remember which perek off hand.) What to do practically under the circumstances is one question, but theoretically if there is a need for pressure to be applied to the ba’al aveirah there are plenty of sources for that.
Little I know, remember Pinchas ben Elozar ben Aharon HaâKohen?
1. Not all motivations are good. 2. Kedoshim tihyu just means not engaging in very big taâavos.
To go to higher levels the fear doesnât help because one does not get punished or gets a roshah label for not going there.
The little I know, your Western society attitude in not in accordance with the Torah. A transgressor is not as much of a child of HKBH. We are his law enforcement officers, just in this country we canât do it.
Chabadshlucha, keeping away from issurim and doing all the obligatory mitsvos properly is already a really big thing. Your mashalim donât help in situations where one has a serious yetzer hara to do something one is not supposed to do.
Itâs not only fear of punishment- itâs also fear of being labeled âa rashahâ in Heaven.
SHY, I didnât mean his level of observance, but rather the level of his neshomah.
Seychal HaYashar, the 20 old statement is not to be taken literally.
Iâll tell I would not have become frum and progressed further if not for yiras haâonesh.Seychal HaYashar, simple folk today are not on the spiritual level of Rambamâs amâaratzim. Yeridas haâdoros…
I meant many of the other motivations would not move me.
Chabadshlucha, I am such a person. And on the contrary the many of the other motivations would move me. I agree with Joseph.
Sechel HaYahar, that Rambam is meant for baâalei madreigah, and we are speaking of simple folk here.Bitul Torah, I meant. Auto spell check đ
Typical Joseph. Granted Rabbi Miller held like that. I donât know if Chafetz Chaim did. Chazal donât appear to imply like that. Okay, but you should not let your friendships lead to botulism Torah either.
Zahavasdas, Aharon never entered E. Yisroel.
Gaon, you are wrong as far as historical facts go. Secular European Jews in Germany, Austro-Hungary etc. either did not believe in G-d (most of them) or did not believe that he gave us the Torah. Secular Eastern European Jews were Socialists, Communists, secular Maskilim who did not believe in God.
Gaon, being a koifer is not better than being a Christian. The aversion to conversion is an emotional/historic reality, but according to Halochah it doesnât hold true (except for chezkas yichus).
I also follow the principle that if someone is exposed to Yiddishkeit enough, he loses the tinok sheânishba status, but an extenuating circumstance it definitely is ( not being brought up frum).Gaon, to start with: I wrote that he and his parents, mestama, did not believe in G-d.
Yihusdik, what kind of an outrageous claim is this – that matrilineal descent was not followed?
CS, it wasnât too heavily Kabbalistic.
Gaon, Hertzl was born, as we are told, into a secular European family- meaning they didnât believe in G-d or kept anything and didnât mind intermarring. It is not, Halochically speaking better than conversion. And again, bear in mind the circumstances of his upbringing.
Gaon, if they violate pretty much everything, itâs not much better. Itâs called a mumar for all of the Torah. Plus, I explained already where those Ashkenazim come from, and the Sefardi way of being frei is also based on a major chesoron.