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Dear Avira,
Go tell a satmar preteen that their Rav Yoelish was a loner on his views of the Medinah. Go tell a Lakewood kid, about those that know shas and poskim cold and are college educated. Go tell the YU-bound high schooler, that there are yungeliet in BMG that get mentions in scientific papers. Go tell the IDF that some of the most fanatical chareidim on earth observe the yartzeit of every fallen soldier from the last fifty years. You get the point. (Maybe that’s to optimistic.) People who grow up in a boxed in community don’t have a clue how unique their opinions are.
I concede that there is a specific point to make about Chabad on this matter. But your being too blunt. If you want to speak the truth on this crucial matter, you need to be much more precise.
And one more thing. I’m not making an argument against sheltering anybody from opposing opinions. It is a very necessary thing. That isn’t a reason for us to be embarrassed about this fact of communal life.
Dear Avram,
First of all, I wasn’t in that yeshiva.
1) Some people in chinuch dropped their own nuanced hands off approach when it came to yeshiva bachurim and their phones. The fall out -even today- is tremendous. The yeshiva staff did not see anything from the angle of the student body. They were continually at war with some talmidim.
2) The boys that were not committing to permanently giving up their phone, had no one to talk to. Half the yeshiva was put on a pedestal for not having a phone even though it wasn’t a sacrifice. And the reaction to this group was that if you were interested being better off, you would join them. So the yeshiva wrote them off as not intersted and overlooked them for everything.
3) Bachurim had to get rid of their phones within a week. They had to figure out if they should cancel or not. They had to put all their info somewhere else. Some had to figure out new travel arrangements. It disrupted a lot of the routine. And it encouraged face to face encounters that were not desirable.
Philosophy doesn’t impact the street. Even philosophers like Marx and Nietzsche didn’t impact public opinion with their theories.
Dear Avira,
No parent can keep their teen off the internet. Maybe it could be done as a community. but I’m skeptical.
The OP posts again almost nine years later, and it isn’t notable?
I know major mainstream gedolim that had smartphones even when they themselves were involved in the anti technology movement. Almost nobody ever saw their phones. And the content of these phones are much different than your average smartphone, including my own.
My point in the whole argument is, that it comes across that wasting your life without a smartphone is okay. But even if your learning all day, once you have a smartphone you’re doomed.
Dear Avram,
One thousand percent the void was already there. But the hanhala was told by the technology experts that it is all because of the phone. And they became conditioned to only see the phone issue and not the real issue. It got so bad, that these boys couldn’t ask for help. Some of them even knew that the phone was stopping them from worse things. It was like the biggest mitzva to get the phones out of yeshiva. Even if it killed a whole winter zman and half a dozen bachurim. Thankfully, most of that hanhala is no longer in chinuch.
To be honest, I’m not in Lakewood so I am not really up to date. But going on a few years ago it came down to that a mesivta would not increase it’s profile by having a full scholastic curriculum. Some had for diplomas. And some the rosh yeshiva believed in the idea. But the top mesivtas that have the ability to put in a high level program, were faced with very little interest from their own parent body.
When I posted that there is no market for it that was an exaggeration. I was responding to the theory that it was proactively prevented at the top from happening. That is a lie. It was attempted from the very top. And it failed because of lack of interest. As Lakewood grows there is more diversity. And there could be a really solid mesivta with a serious secular education. There always were lower level options that had English Studies.
In sum, none of this violence is because of learning only yeshivos. Unless these boys were sent to solid places instead of easier ones. But I doubt it. Because almost all these boys were struggling to stay in line while still in Middle School.
Dear Avira,
That blurb from the Gaon is from the least authenticated of his writings. Your point about influence may be a valid one. But that is not this discussion. The Gaon himself studied all kinds of wisdom. There is no fear of being influenced from the truth. The only question is if the student is ready to handle it. But if he sees the wisdom in say, chemistry, what is the danger of outside influence?
I have a feeling this will be a long discussion. So keep it light. We can always yell later.
Dear Avira,
If you only have random (especially online) contested interactions with any self-sustaining community, your only going to come across those that are looking for an argument. I’ve glimpsed Chabad from the inside. It’s not radically different than anything else. Disclaimer: I don’t think I have seen too many kinds of communities to begin with.
Okay Sam, I’ll take a look.
1) Sefer Tehillim probably got it’s form in the times of Chizkeya or Ezra. But you wanted to know when was Assaf.
2) according to our reckoning. Dovid was less than 3000 years ago.
3) Psalm 79 unfortunately is often applicable.
4) The ninth of of was made ‘a day of tears’ 3500 years ago.
5) I have no reaction at all to your silly 911 wordplays.
6) Numbers aren’t really easier on a rotary phone. It was more about memorizing it in those days.
7) There couldn’t be a 111 code to switchboard.
8) You only know of three tragedies that occurred on tisha b’av?!?
9) There is nothing straight about these messages. It looks like missionary material.
And the more I think about it, the more I want to know if your legit.
Dear Ben,
I’m not sure why you care so much what Avira thinks about such an obscure topic.
What an amazing self troll!!!
The OP tried to point out that it does not mean an obligation to go learn חכמת הגוים. Yet, the binary question of is it a permission or an obligation leads to an opposite truth. By admitting that even if it is only a permission it is because the wisdom of it is still factual, than it no longer matters. Since factual wisdom is it’s own obligation. If you see the wisdom in something, that in itself obligates you to follow it. As opposed to ignoring the wisdom and doing some foolish alternative.
In sum, the OP demonstrated the fallacy of believing that one could get through what they are doing (Random example: excelling at deep analytical thought in any random field of study. Ummmm let’s pick one randomly. Say, all the different tosofos in one sugya. Or shagas aryeh. OR even bircas shmuel.) while ignoring the wisdom of what it is and how it works.
Dear Always,
What you are talking about is only a sliver of the national or international leadership. Many (maybe even most) of the big halachic controversies came from an individual with an agenda that kept on pushing until he got acceptance among a large amount of the poskim.
PS Didn’t Rav Soloveitchik write about this? Something like that halacha is not a democratic process, and therefore it has completely different safeguards that get corrupted by a preference for outside influence.
Actually, there is a secular curriculum in a few Lakewood mesivtas. It was never banned or decided. One of the best yeshivos in Lakewood used to have a good English program. They stopped because the parent body didn’t care for it. It’s expensive to hire teachers. If the community isn’t pushing for it, it’s not going to really work. But to be fair, most of the volience is from kids who barely made it to their bar mitzva. A real high school diploma won’t solve anything here.
Now I’m left wondering who is more irked by the enigma of The Heinteger Zatzal, Avira or Ben?
You both could just move on and worry about him/Him a bit less.
Great Job, Beeble!
This should be habitually bumped for the next year.
It’s challenging to push for enough nuance to learn new things in an open forum. But it is an open test of the fallacy of many positions on popular topics. for example; The Shidduch Crisis.
Speaking of, you started a thread trying to blame it on Brisk. And you stuck to it even when I called you out. If you want to talk against Brisk, that’s okay. However, to have thought provoking threads, there needs to be more thoughts brought in. If you just get provoked because I disagreed with you, that doesn’t help the content of the CR.
Sophistry is synonymous with magic.
Platonic Aristocracy.
I never got upset about your post. The way you sum up Jewish Leadership, especially in regards to the implications of standard practice, is completely untrue. Maybe it’s just that you have a bad way with words. But it’s not at all democratic.
I didn’t mean that Roshei Yeshivos run the velt. They do not even think they are Rebbes. I’m trying to tell you that halachic issues are passed around to those that are competent on the issue, without regard for their popularity. If many Jews decide to follow the opinion of one who doesn’t know anything about the discussion, it does not make his opinion anymore valid than an online comment.
Dear Always,
No contradiction.
One can pasken shailos even if “nobody listens to him” as in the example I gave. The controversy was that he was incorrect. Not that he couldn’t give such a psak.
The fellow I was referring to, is not known personally by almost anyone that asks. Including most people who have his private phone number. [For all they know he beats his wife.] He is an in instant response that is very valuable to many halachic decisions.
The point is that it never was banned. Even today.
Dear Gadol,
I don’t have any idea how many do. The problem is that most parents don’t care what level education their boys get.
Dear Avram,
I feel the movement as a whole is misguided. It produces a lot of of very public messaging. The main practical purpose of all their media is avoiding technology. There should be more about what is good discipline. Especially when it comes to using our free time.
Dear Avram,
About bachurim getting into trouble after giving up their phones. Their yeshiva went all in on the no phone holiness. They left some boys with an unfilled void.
“follow his advice on mussar”
Advice on mussar doesn’t sound right, so I don’t know what you mean.
For any truth seeker, Einstein’s essays are very enlightening. People get annoyed because he wasn’t controversial on these topics. It won’t help those that just want to win debates.
Dear Are,
Please keep anti-Semitic/flat earth fodder off of TYW.
“he was very open in his denial of Hashem’s mastery over the Universe”
I disagree with this interpretation.
Dear Menachem,
A hirur teshuvah does not a tzaddik make. The gemara is aware that he may call himself a tzaddik gamur. (But see tosafos.)
Dear Common,
So know you know that Einstein believed in the existence of God. And you post was agnostic by asserting that he didn’t.
High school secular studies is still not forbidden in Lakewood. There isn’t a market for it. And I don’t think it’s what this issue is about.
Dear Sam,
That sounds like some missionaries for Messianic Judaism.
“I presume YWN has a hidden list of Torah credentials that they do not allow to offend”
Armchair hypothesis right there.
Dear Always,
It’s not one bit democratic. It’s a Platonic Aristocracy.
Someone who is capable of answering shailos may do so even if nobody listens to him. Like, חליצה על ידי שליח. This nistar is a quick thinker who knows certain complex sugyos in his sleep. Certain conflicting topics are ran by him by some very big name poskim.
Dear Ben,
Maybe you should consider if your proofs proof anything to a different perspective. All you found is some sources that don’t explicitly contradict the possibility that mashiach will come from the dead.
Dear Some,
No difference. Whatever you consider unknowledgeable assimilated Jews, he would fall into that category.
Dear Common,
Einstein wasn’t agnostic. Your post is.
To be more blunt, the police are involved.
Dear Leiby,
The police have limited options. You know that.
Not really. The problem is that their standards are unclear. If they were just lenient, it would be used when there is nothing better available.
I did. The next sentence.
Dear Avram,
I’m having a hard time getting my point across. I know former alcoholics who moved on to a new job in a new field who are excelling at what they do. I know three people who kicked their drug habit and became solid full time learners. I know a few kids who gave up their phones and now spend their days looking for drugs, alcohol, or trouble. . But that is not really my point.
I have come across a whole bunch of people who think it is terribly important for me to get rid of my smartphone without knowing what I do with my time. When I confront them with what do they do all day, their answer boils down to not having a smartphone. They will openly say, a yeshiva bachur who barely learns but doesn’t have a phone, is better than a serious masmid that has the internet in his pocket.
My point is that the anti smartphone movement is misguided.
meaning, you’ll save my site data from Google. Nice to see you as well.
Dear Ben,
My vote would never coronate any king. It’s a ridiculous sevara. Have you seen it anywhere?
Dear Avira,
Not just not looking down. But genuine care and interest.
Dear Always,
What do you say about serious global halachic questions that are decided by an unkown talmid chochom sitting in kollel for twenty five years? Just to give you the picture, the people sitting around him do not know that he answers questions from all over the globe. And even his wife and kids are barely aware of it. He is never invited to any asifa and is not asked for brachos. Oh, and nobody ever takes his picture. His suit and hat are older than me.
Neither. We are going to pretend it was someone else’s fault and wait for them to take responsibility.
Dear Besalel,
That was my point. Except that it would be three generations behind. There is a lot of these elements even in non hassidic circles. Modern thought is rough.
Ha! Nice to see your screenname again.