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Aimhaonim – clearly your family has had a most unusual and lovely zechus. But it IS a rarity, make no mistake. Don’t forget, many first pregnancies, in addition to all the other factors, are FEMALE. I am married almost 33 years and have only had three pidyonim to attend in all that time.
I think that all of us can agree that no child shold be subjected to a HUMILIATING search, but turning one’s pockets out is not the same thing as a strip search. If one is worried, he should not have anything in his pockets that might be embarrassing, especially if he knows this kind of checkup is possible.
Anuran, first of all, my Rov Emeritus, is not only a Scholar musmach with Yoreh Yoreh Yodden Yodden, but he is a secular Ph.D as well, and the lecture he gave was on the BOOK written by the linguistics scholar who posits the idea that all language derives from Hebrew (which it does). Hashem altered the language into 70(?) at the Migdal Bavel time, but there are still words that overlap in all languages that have origins in Hebrew. BTW, my Rov IS a linguist and a DIKDUK specialist.
Totally correct, I am very much pro higher education and getting prepared for a real profession. And our hishtadlus is very important in all areas, but sometimes one has to simply knwo the right people in order to get a foot in the door for a job, and all the polishing up of his resume, dressing neatly, working on his people skills, etc, will not get him that foot int he door, though it might help him a great deal to MAINTAIN a good job, once he gets it. Money will not fall out of the sky, and neither do shidduchim. If girls are davening for themselves and others, going to all singles events, but the same boys are there over and over (and they may have already dated some of them), they accept most, if not all, suggestions that are made to them,and are signed onto the frum dating websites and accepting those shidduchim, then they ARE doing their hishtadlus. Yes, some need to work on their personalities and people skills, as well as be more realistic about themselves and about the guys, but that is not true of all, and for anyone to imply that it is (author, lecturer – anyone), does a great disservice to the other girls who are doing their best. It is onaas devarim to say such things to them.
If the principal feels the need to do this, clearly there has already been a problem. Stop coddling the kids, and if you are one of the kids, don’t whine about it. Today’s kids have a lot more stuff than we ever dreamed of having. Frum or not, all students need to know that the rules WILL be enforced. As I said earlier, the Yeshivah is not a Democracy.
There is absolutely no reason why boys should have a phone on them during class hours, even if they are silent. There is always a compromise to be made that addresses the needs of the student versus the scool policy. Each boy can have a special area where his own cell phone is kept during class, and allowed access only during a break.we grew up without cell phones, and it didn’t hurt us a bit.
Kids can use phones to waste time in class, to text each other, to make drug deals (in the secular school system this is a terrible machlah), to cheat on a test, to look at stuff they shouldn’t be looking at, to check on ball game scores, etc. etc. None of these things constitutes the ever-elusive “emergency” that the boys seem to feel will arise, and if one does arise during classtime, Ch”vS, then the phone can be made available to them in a second. Kids WILL and do try to get away with anything, no matter how “good” they are.
“Many times, the right one they haven’t met is themselves. “
Great line, even if I only partly agree with the rest of your post. Guys have as much nonsense to work on as do girls. The reason people are opposed to recommending self-improvement to older singles is very simple. It is very insulting and presupposes there IS something wrong with them. If it was your daughter having someone make that observation/recommendation to her, you would feel very bad (don’t say you wouldn’t, it’s easy to say anything, unless you are really nogaya l’inyan by watching your child chalilah grow up to be single in her 30s).
All of this might be true of SOME singles, but I think it is both simplistic and unfair to put that type of emotional burden on singles as a group. Many wonderful young women, and men too, are simply not meeting the right people for them, and it has nothing to do with the need for self-improvement, but more to do with bad timing, mazel, their yichus and money or lack thereof, their connections,their physical appearance and personalities (which may or may not be able to be altered in a positive way) and (may I repeat it?) their MAZEL. I really do not get why it is so hard for some people to understand this. It seems very clear to my friends and me when we talk about young people whom we know who are not married.
If it is a school rule, and this just my opinion – of COURSE it is proper. If there is reason to suspect that bochurim are not complying with the rule, then the principal is within his rights IMO. And I am the one who generally feels that at times there are too many rules being imposed on our kids. Nevertheless, if you send your child to a school that specifies the rule of no cellphones, they have a right to enforce that rule. What if he thought the kids were smoking pot? Wouldn’t you agree he would have the right to randomly check on them by asking them to empty their pockets or whatever else he wanted to check (lockers, book bags, etc.)? A Yeshivah, we tend to forget, is NOT a Democracy.
I do feel, though that there should be some availability for a bochur to have a cell phone (but perhaps give it to the Rebbie at the start of the day, so the boy doesn’t have it on him, to text or for other shtuss, but it is available in an emergency. The old line, “Well if the parents need to reach the student they can always call the school,” doesn’t work. Most schools have voicemail menus that take forever to navigate. In an emergency Chalilah, it could waste very precious time. There is surely a way to compromise.
This is a very interesting topic. Thank you, littleeema, for your contribution to this lesson. BTW, you had nothing to be embarrassed about – apparently many of us were taught the same thing.
OK, Yoshi, B”H the procedure went smoothly. Halevai veiter, as they say, and may she back home with her mommy and daddy with her health and strength restored completely, ASAP.
I have read too MANY articles of this type, and they all say the same thing. So unless the writer of the Binah article was unusually insightful, and unless there is a way to verify that (s)he actually spoke to the singles whose ostensible observations are noted, and unless the number of singles who were interviewed is large enough so that the “evidence” is not skewed in a particular direction, I am leery of accepting it at face value. Remember that information can be manipulated to “support” almost any particular bias.
“I never heard about a pidyon being required for a second child if the first was by C-section.
Correct. Although it is a machlokes in the Gemora if the firstborn son was delivered via Caesarean section if the second child (assuming its a son and is born naturally) requires a pidyon. We pasken not.”
Thank you, Joseph. I guess I learned it incorrectly. It only serves to underscore how RARE a pidyon haben is.
“Bechor peter rechem” means the first child (and only if that child is male)exiting through natural, non-surgical means through the womb. If there was a miscarriage, then THAT child was the bechor (According to everything I always learned), though in most cases people do not know if the blighted pregnancy was a male or female. A pidyon is not required for a c-section first-born male. In the case of a V-BAC male infant, I believe it is required.
“Oomis Von Shlepp – OMgosh – didn’t we go to Bais Yaakov together??? AAAAIIIIEEEEEEE!!!! I can’t believe I found you!!!!!!!!!!!”
LOL!!!! (sorry, but nope)
Whenever I read an article of this type (i.e. singles who fail to work through their issues, which are holding them back from shidduchim), I always wonder, how many older singles WROTE these articles? Some probably-married author sits in his or her seat and decides what the “real problem” is. Nice.
I believe the problem is that we have made our own shidduch crisis, and by the time some of our children (who have not yet found the right one) realize that the presently accepted process is NOT working for them, their window of opportunity (age-wise) has narrowed considerably. NOW they have to completely re-think their ideology of what constitutes a good shidduch, and recognize that at age 30 + in the FRUM world, an appropriate shidduch might possibly be someone who was married and divorced or widowed, with or without children, maybe not “the look” they were always thinking they wanted, and possibly very different from what they always envisioned Prince Charming or Super-Model to be. We tend to get more realistic in what attracts us, as we get a little older.
When I was a young dater, I didn’t even want to HEAR of a guy who could not sing. I come from a family of chazzonim, and our shabbos table was always filled with harmonious zmiros. We sang together all the time at home and jokingly referred to ourselves as the Von Shlepp Family singers (for anyone who does not watch tv or movies, that is a pun on the Von Trapp Family who were made famous in the movie “The Sound of Music”). After many years of searching for my own personal “Shloime Dachs” (well in those years it was more like “The Rabbis’ Sons”), I ended up marrying a phenomenal guy who is tone deaf! Had I not adjusted my thinking when I realized he loved music but couldn’t carry a tune in a basket, I would have lost out on the greatest gifts of my life – my husband, children, and grandchildren, kinehora. I was only 26 when that realization hit me. It takes some people longer.
Not every single has that epiphany when they are in their late 20s, and even in their 30s. But it is a far cry to trying to help someone expand his/her way of thinking, to making them feel guilty for something that has MANY components and causes, and not just some “issues” that some, but not all, of them might have.
Haifagirl, is that the case (and I honestly do NOT know), or is it possible that the parties involved never thought to ask a shailah about it at all, and just assumed they had to make a pidyon? Yeshivah guys – please check this out for us and let us know.
Jothar, what about the BOYS working on THEIR issues?????
Just lucky, I guess…
a. German luxury car for the plutonian underworld.
Hades Mercedes?
Rawtz ka’tzvi, gibbor k’ari. Naftali was the swift runner who was likened to a tzvi.
“For that one I’m afraid you get raked over the coals ;)! “
Coal Yisrael Chaverim – – they would never do that to me.
It is very rare these days to see an actual pidyon habein.Not only is the father’s lineage (Kohein or Levi) importasnt, but if the MOTHER is a BAS Kohein or Bas Levi, the parents are also exempt. My understanding also is that the male baby has to be the first child to emerge from the womb (through a normal birth process), so if there was a previous pregnancy (male or female) that was delivered via c-section, I believe (learned gentleman please correct me if I am mistaken) that if the second child is male and is delivered normally, he requires a pidyon. If there was a miscarriage in the first pregnancy, there is no requirement for a pidyon on the next baby born if it is male, since a pregnancy has already exited the womb previously, even though it was not viable.
Could Shila, if it is a boy’s name, be like Shayaleh?
we can’t have a Lemechel, and certainly not an Onan nowadays. I still am working on why people don’t like to call someone a Chaim Yankel, which seem like perfectly nice names to me. And to me the name of a distant female relative “Boitzeh” is still the number one that I have never heard again.
“jphone – he named his grill George too! “
He had boys AND grills?????
I agree fully that parental opinion should be valued – when the parent’s opinion does not carry a hidden agenda of the parent’s own vicarious wishes versus what the adult child wants and needs. Involvement is the not the same as interference. How many mothers of boys have refused a shidduch without even mentioning it to their sons, for the most STUPID of reasons (dress size was a 6, the girl’s mother didn’t have a choshuv profession outside the home, and the best one, the very intelligent one that someone said to me after grilling me for half an hour about a lovely girl – “but I hear she’s short, and I don’t want short grandchildren” — honestly if that’s a problem, why waste my time talking about her)?
And nowadays, it is not really so easy to walk away from a bad job, which is way better than having NO job. I would not normally feel that a bad marriage is better than no marriage, though. Nothing in our present world is ideal, and we have to remember that when our kids are in the parsha. Nobody said it would be easy…
recipe(s) is the correct spelling.
“Doba ” probably derives from Tova
Nimrod – it’s weird how calling someone a nimrod is really an insult in the English vernacular. Like calling him a jerk. Maybe that’s because the original Nimrod was really stupid to think he could build a high tower in order to go to war with Hashem.
“At the same time my daughter doesnt want to handle any of this on her own..it just confuses her.and some shadchanim are so overbearing…
And yes, I had to deal with my own ‘dirty work’
Its a new world…. “
You and your daughter should always do what works well for you (and may she find her right zivug soon, B”EH). Not referring to your daughter, but if a girl cannot handle any of this on her own and gets confused by the process, then how will she ever be able to make decisions about how to raise her children, what advice to listen to from her parents, friends, in-laws, etc.? There will always be overbearing people in her life, so overbearing shadchanim are good experience for her to learn to assert herself.
You’re right – it IS a new world which is harkening back to the OLD world, a world which is the result of people who seem to have stopped taking responsibility for thinking, for doing, and for the consequences of their actions. Whether it is in religious observance or social interaction (and there is much overlap), ultimately we have to be responsible human beings who do not give our lives over to someone else to live them for us. If a girl wanted to apply for a job or ask for a raise at work, would she ask her Mommy to do it for her?
P4M, why do you think I am missing the boat (I wouldn’t get on a boat anyhow)? I believe strongly in the concept that Am Yisroel’s big zechus, among others, in Galus Mitzrayim was that they did not change their names. We are in Galus America here, and it would seem to me to be way harder for a Jew named Moishie or Devorah to assimilate than it is for a Mark or a Diane. In any case, I have a strong love for Loshon Kodesh, and feel that it is the right thing for my children to be named for the Hebrew names of those long-gone relatives even when said relatives were referred to by their secluar names), and in a case where the name was Yiddish, we translated it into the exact Hebrew (Faigeh to Tzipporah, for example).
RE: the name Moshe being Egyptian – while that is true to some extent, the fact is that he was named thus by Bat Par’o, because (and I quote) “min hamayim misheeseehu,” which clearly is said in Hebrew. “Moshe” itself is the present tense active form of the word. In Egyptian, his name might not have been sounding exactly like Moshe, but if it did, she still named him through the Hebrew language.
When did we get Moderator 104??????????
HI, 105!
I am so enjoying these. I also love those puzzles where you see a picture of a word or letters written out in a weird way, and tyou have to figure out what the picture is saying. Like ( c c c c ) would be 4 seasons ( 4 c’s in)
P4M, it was actually for that reason that my husband and I only gave Jewish names to our children. Their English names ARE their Jewish names (i.e. Moshe, Rivkah, etc.) .
5) Well-dressed Eminem (dapper rapper)
6) Vessel that sails around a castle (moat float)
8) Where Napolitano seems to be (Rome home)
10) How Donald gets water (duck suck?)
12) Place to stay in the Old City (Kotel hotel)
17) Collection of pictures of Lady Solti (valerie gallery)
Posted 8 minutes ago #
ICOT, where ARE you getting these from? THANK YOU so much for finally giving my demented, rapidly disintegrating brain cells a chance for some real exercise! (Try to avoid the sports references, though. I am not too learned in that area).
“Nathalie “
YEP! Most people are unaware of that. “Natale” means “The Birth.” It specifically refers to “his” birth, which is why the name came into usage by christians.
Naming for a relative is powerful, but it is far better to name in Loshon Kodesh, IMO.
When a name has very specific goyishe implications, it is no kovod to the person for whom the child is named, especially if the deceased was named that name through innocent lack of awareness of its implications.
MAYAN- DVASH — in my household we LOVE Elmo. I never thought of it as Jewish name. Now I must get a kippah for my granddaughter’s favorite little friend.
I wanted to add something to my post – the ONLY reason that people are now allowing shadhchanim to be the third party to say yes or no to another date (or even the very FIRST date being arranged by them), is that we have allowed the system to evolve in this direction in recent years. As I said in another post, thirty years ago people arranged their own dating schedules, even if shadchanim arranged for a couple to meet. After giving the boy the girl’s number, the shadchan backed out (except to be told yes or no to a future date),but the boy still either called or didn’t call the girl, and she accepted or declined.
Some of us have allowed ourselves to be convinced that the method of the shadchan doing all the legwork, is somehow more religiously and socially proper than encouraging our young people to be the adults that they are supposed to be (if they are ready to be getting married, that is). If something works for you, fine, it does not hurt me for you to do things your way. But, the danger lies in starting to believe that this is the RIGHT and only way to do things.
My kids and their friends are (with a few exceptions)not Yeshivish, they are more MO very machmir. Even THEIR chevra have been convinced into thinking that if someone is setting them up, they should not even listen to someone else who also has a shidduch in mind. Mind you, they haven’t even been asked out by the first person yet. It is not even where the boy might even yet know about the girl. But in their circle of friends, it is not “done” any other way. They COMPLETELY finish with one shidduch (from the concept of the point of someone making an initial suggestion about someone, to the actual decision to decline a second date), before they even want to hear about someone else. I think that is foolish, because it wastes time that might be spent actually meeting someone else who might be more readily available and more quickly actually meet the person to whom they are suggsted. My opinion (and it will never change), the early bird gets…. and our kids should listen to all suggestions for shidduchim, and not wait around for someone to give the go ahead at their end, before agreeing to a date with someone else in the interim.
I know a young man who agreed to a shidduch, only to find out the girl was being redt to someone (whose mother had not yet told the shadchan to go forward). Weeks went by and the girl had not yet heard from the other guy. The boy I know, was told about another girl meanwhile, and went out with her. The first girl finally heard from the shadchan, and the other boys’ mom had said no. This young lady therefore wasted several weeks of her life waiting for someone who ultimately did not even meet her, AND lost out on meeting a really good boy who was eager to meet her. Though he did not end up marrying the girl he had met at that time, he met someone else right after and DID marry her. So while one could correctly argue it was not bashert for this girl and boy to meet, who knows what might have been, or how many other boys she lost out on because she would not even consider another shidduch while waiting for the other one to come through? I have always believed in first-come, first served. Our kids cannot afford to make the shidduch process even more difficult than it already is.
YDKM – When I was in my dating years some 30 + years ago, girls had do that ALL the time. Do you honestly think we had a shadchan tell a boy we were not interested? Nobody relied on the person who set it up (if it was a set up) to do their dirty work (and that’s why it is uncomfortable – we always want someone else to do our dirty work for us). It may be uncomfortable to have to take a phone call and say, this is not going to work out (couched in a nicer way, of course), but it is part of being a mature adult. There will be MANY MANY times in life where tact and awkwardness will be intertwined, and where that young ADULT will need to face something unpleasant that has to be done (firing someone from a job, apologizing to someone whom he has hurt, owning up to a mistake he made that caused a problem for someone else), wanting to return an expensively bought item to a store), and not going out for a second date is really minor compared to those mentioned. It is good practice for the future.
If someone absolutely, positively feels incapable of having an actual phone conversation, then at the very least in response to a phone message, write a nice text message thanking him for meeting with you, but after thinking about it, that you don’t feel the relationship will move forward. Wish him well, and reiterate that it was nice meeting him. He has to be a grownup, too. Not everyone will like everyone. If they did, it would be chaos. Going through a shadchan is perhaps less of a responsibility, but it shows a lack of maturity to follow through, even when the event calls for discomfort.
If a generation ago, we were capable of taking care of our own business, why do you suppose this next generation is less capable than we?
haifa girl – THAT’S what threw me off. LBJ was the 36th pres. I kept trying to think of Baines’ gains or Johnson vontzen (?) or something else that made no sense to me. You’re right it is Nixon, the NEXT pres.
“Really? Well the name Nicole Its veryy common in my community (yes orthodox!) Maybe you should be careful how you say things. Because is NOT uncommon “
Don’t get bent out of shape. I AM careful how I say things, and meant no insult. Nicole comes from Nicholas which is the REAL name of the “sainted” jolly man in the red suit. Any Jew who knows that would not b’davka seek to name a child nicole or nicholas (would a frum parent name a son christopher or a daughter christine?) It just shows that the people who do so, really are not thinking about the name at all, or its origins. Perhaps your Orthodox community is unaware of the significance of that name. Otherwise why would anyone frum would want to call their child by a name, no matter how pretty, that is SO strongly sociated with both christianity and paganism?
If it is out of a genuine and innocent lack of awareness, then it is GOOD for it to be called to their attention. I truly did not intend to offend. My apologies.
addendum to my riddle guesses:
“14) A type of pliers in a barber shop (two sets of hyphenated words). “
Slip-joint clip-joint
1) Riki Tiki Tavi, after falling into a tub of yellowish-green paint. (chartreuse mongoose)
2) Young 19th-century general, bragging that he would easily defeat the Lakota and Cheyenne braves. (Custer Bluster)
3) Politely suppress a digestive noise. (Squelch belch)
4) An unsavory Englishman. (slimey Limey)
7) The ghosts of chickens past. (prior fryer)
12) An extraordinarily plain milk container. (spartan carton)
13) Cousteau’s footwear. (Jacques’ sox)
Itai, Eitan, Liora, Yaniv, Limor, Galit, Yaron, all the Israeli or sefardi sounding names come to mind.
I think Yechiel is not such an uncommon name.
“BP Totty, and how do the singles find out if the other is interested if the Shadchan has been asked to back out? “
Here’s a thought – and maybe it’s a bit radical for this blog – the boy calls her again within a couple of days to tell her what a great time he had and to either ask her out again then and there or ask her when it would be convenient to call to arrange for another date. If she feels likewise that she wants to see him, she agrees that she, too, had fun and eagerly says yes to the second date. If not, she tells him thank you very much for the pleasant evening they had, but she will be very busy and unavailable to go out (or whatever words she wants to use). They will have many awkward experiences to deal with in life, so this is good training for those occasions. Not every date goes well, and not every person will want to go out with the other person a second time. It is part of life. We don’t get hired for every job we want, either.
A parent of a 30 year old never married girl, who is still fielding the daughter’s shidduchim calls and turning away prospective matches without at least consulting with the daughter, clearly does NOT want that daughter to get married, no matter what the parent asserts to the contrary. For some reason, they like keeping her very emotionally dependent on them. Not very healthy for parent OR child.
Shmaryahu, Shlumiel, Shammai, Nimrod, Barak,Tzurisha(k)ai, take any name from the nesiyim. for girls, Chuldah, Machlah, Choglah, Bat-Tzion,Pirchiya, and Cheftzibah.
Kayla is a name that is coming into more common usage recently. And Tzivia has been around a long time.
Boy did I misread this thread!
Most common, any of the names of the Avos or Emahos, followed by Moshe, Dovid, Aharon, Yosef, (all the Ushpizin,I guess), Shmuel, the shevatim, etc.
First or last? Any name that originates in England or South Africa, will probably be eligible. Examples Selwyn, Hylton, etc. The MOST unusual name of an unquestionably Orthodox Jewish man who is FFB whom I know, is Noel. I also know of a frum woman whose name is Nicole. As these are both references to either the holiday or the jolly fat December guy with the reindeer, I cannot fathom what possessed the parents to give those names to Jewish children. But it is more common than one would imagine.
When we were little kids, my sibs and I would play the name game. We would take a nice Jewish name like Moshe Eliezer, and find a really outrageous secular name for it, like Montgomery Ellsworth.
“What kind of shidduch can a boxer expect?”
Well, he wouldn’t want to be boxed in to only one kind of shidduch…
My son, who DOES value our opinions, always speaks with his rebbie an extremely well-respected and admired man, to talk things over with him (while at the same time discussing those things with us, as well). He has often been surprised to discover how much his rebbie and we think alike. Go figure…
My now retired Rov gave a lecture on the book that you mentioned, and it is really fascinating. There are so many cognates in the English (and other) language(s) from Hebrew. The author posits that ALL words derive from Hebrew, which makes sense as that is the language Hashem created first. One of the most interesting words we use today is “copacetic,” and it derives from the Hebrew expression “Hakol b’seder” which was heard by American soldiers when speaking to Israeli military. The Americans asked if everything was ok, and the Israelis answered back hakol b’seder, which the Americans fractured as everything being “copacetic.”
“I would say, like HIPPA, let the kids decide who they want to allow to talk with the shadchan, even informally. I think that my kids, if older, would still value my opinion. “
There are kids who are so inexperienced, or frightened, or NOT ready to date, that they will give over their entire shidduch process to their parents and the shadchan. Yes, there are kids who need their parents’ VALUABLE input, but most kids who are already 25 or more, should be grown up about dating, and even if they go through a shadchan, should speak to the shadchan directly, and then follow through on the dating themselves, without the shadchan making the dates for them and without mommy and daddy making their decisions for them. While it is true parents have more experience, it does not mean their agenda is always what is right for their child. Parent should be involved, but unles THEY are going out on the date, the boy or girl should take achrayus for themselves. And I agree that even 25 is a bit too old for this.