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This would depend on whose car it was. If someone was doing you a favor to take you and your husband home, as you described. I would hesitate to tell someone when I am NOT in my own car what to do. That being said, if I really was nauseous, I would have spoken up. I am sure the lady would not have wanted you to be throwing up all over her and her sandwich.
I know this is going to be regarded as a nit-picky post, but the word Tznius, means “MODESTY,” not modestLY, and is constantly being misused by people. What they mean to say is not that something is or is not Tznius, but that it is or is not TzniusDIG. It is not tzniusdig to wear short skirts, or lime green dresses (and WHY is that, exactly??), or sleeveless dresses, or Hawaiian shirts (if you are a man). I don’t know who the first person was who doesn’t know basic rules of good grammar and made a noun into an adjective, but using the expression it is not “Tznius” to describe one’s clothing or actions, is like saying it is “voch” to discuss business on Shabbos, when what you really mean to say is it is vochedig. Sorry to be so picky and petty, but this really has always bothered me that people continue to speak poorly.
He did not murder that girl. What he did was worse. he ALLOWED her to die a terrifying death. I think that it was ascertained that she lived for a sufficient amount of time, that had he called for help immediately, she could have survived drowning, because she did not drown right away. His delay was what caused her death. I am not sure one can be prosecuted for delaying in helping someone. He clearly DID show a reckless and depraved indifference to life, and he was covering himself. While I definitely feel bad for Mary Jo Kopechnie, she knew what she was getting into when she went with Teddy. Monica Lewinsky was really lucky that ALL she got was a stained dress. Somehow, women associated illicitly with Kennedy men seem to end up dead.
Well-said, TVT. I also agree with Gritz that chivalry is not a new liberal way of thinking. Kovod should be shown to all people. A man is commanded to give more kovod to his wife than to himself. How can he knwo the proper way to do that if he has no good manners before he gets married? It doesn’t change with time.
Kalla b’lo bracha asura lebaala kenida (kesubos). Also any unmarried woman is assumed to be a nida which is an erva d’oraisa. Note that yichud is prohibited and has the severity of yichud d’oraisa due to her being a nida.
My personal irritation is when I am engaged in a conversation with someone who is CONSTANTLY checking her e-mail or text messages, while I am speaking, or even while she herself is speaking! It’s the same way I would feel if I were trying to talk to my husband and he had his nose buried in the newspaper (he does NOT do that when we are speaking to each other).
“Perhaps oomis1105 can be kind enough to the unlettered among us & cite a source for the contention that R’ Yossi was specifically known for his opinion on the conduct between man and woman?”
I can’t cite a source, because I do not learn Gemarah. I was telling over something I was taught in Yeshivah, while learning Pikei Avos. I was taught that a Rov in Pirkei Avos Perek Aleph Mishnah 5, (whose name is Rabbi Yosi Ben Yochanan,and described as an Ish Yerushalayim) taught, “V’al tarbeh sicha im isha,” don’t converse excessively with a woman. My teacher THEN recounted the story with Beruriah, whom I was told gave mussar to that Rabbi for talking excessively to her when ansking for directions. I, by the way, am NOT the person who said it was R’ Yosi HaGlili. I did not mention any name but Beruriah’s. If I mis-posted any part of the story, I apologize, but it is how it was presented to me in Yeshivah that the person to whom she was giving mussar was well-knwon for having personal views about brevity of speech with a woman.
Matisyohu28, you have totally missed the point of my entire post. I wrote an entire reply to you, but then thought better of it and deleted it.I cannot undo that type of thinking, especially when you find pesukim and divrei chazal to (in your mind) back you up. There are some very decent non-Jews in this world, and Boruch Ha-Shem many of them saved Jewish lives during the Holocaust, at great risk to themselves. Some of them did so (as per their own explanations) because their Jewish neighbor had always been so nice to them.
“Look at it this way. This site is purportedly kosher. And look what kind of non-Torahdik ideas are propagated here, all in the name of Judaism.
If this place is this bad, what place could be good?”
And yet, nonetheless here you are, reading and posting on this site in SPITE of that!
I respectfully disagree with blue shirt insofar as the opinion that texting is no worse or better than any other form of communication. It is first and foremost preventing people from actually having a real conversation with each other. Moreover,they are losing their spelling skills. It is annoying to have to try to decipher the actual written words of people who are used to texting. OMG, that is JMO.
Second, and on a truly serious note, more car accidents have been caused in recent times by people texting each other while driving, than I would like to count. It should be outlawed and SEVERELY fined, if one is caught texting while driving. It is as dangerous as drinking and driving (and if you don’t believe that, you are naive), even worse than talking on a cellphone while driving, because one’s attention is diverted from the road. Anything that impairs your ability to focus on driving, means you are a danger to yourself and everyone around you.
You still can’t compliment your date even though she’s your kallah because she’s still an ervah to you.
1) Shok b’isha erva
2) Kol b”isha erva
2) Sei’ar b’ish erva
This is the first time I have ever heard my life that being a kallah is an erva.
I haven’t read this book, so I cannot intelligently comment on it, but having said that, anyone can write a book about anything, including a rabbi. Could someone please educate me as to the makor for a kallah being erva(not just the totally correct idea that a chosson and kallah have to be extra careful not to get caught up in hormones and emotions, which could lead them to be nichshal, but an actual makor that says the kallah is erva).
To answer a previous poster:
The halacha does not change. So if there were times in Jewish history (as there most assuredly were) that NO one davened with a big brimmed hat, or a black suit jacket and white shirt, or maybe even wore no sox with their sandals,and it was “kosher” then to do so, and people were not ostracized for not wearing Yeshivish levush, then perhaps those who hold that this levush is the only proper attire, might consider accepting that other people who dress differently might still be properly attired, as well. But I doubt that will happen, because some people are always so sure they are right, they are unable to even consider a different and perhaps just as valid possibility.
“oomis1105 is misquoting the gemara in eruvin 42b, it does not say that Bruria’s claim was that R’ Yossi haGlili was hypocritical but rather that the Chazal say not to speak excessively with women. It is true for everyone”
I don’t believe I used the expression “hypocritical,” that was your word. I said she CHIDED him, she gave him mussar, and that is exactly what she did. The mussar in and of itself was specifically because he was KNOWN for his stance on not speaking too much with women. Had it been another Rov asking for directions, I do not believe her response would have been the same.
This, however, is a digression from the original point that I was making, which was that specific rabbanim have personal hashkafos and biases (to which they are most certainly entitled, without question), but sometimes those personal hashkafos and NOT the metzius of the halacha cause them to express certain ideas that are not well-received. It is a foolish chosson indeed, who does not compliment the woman to whom he is engaged, and most especially so, if he is doing that because a rov wrote a sefer telling him to act that way. It is human nature to want to hear sincere compliments from the person who loves you. It’s good for one’s self-esteem, and and it shows that the other person appreciates you, or notices the pains you might have taken to look nice, make a nice meal, raise great children, etc. If one has not learned how to do this before getting married, he will not spontaneously be doing it afterward, either. The whole point of dating, besides the obvious inyan of finding one’s future spouse, is to teach our young people how to interrelate with someone of the opposite sex. How to be mannerly, how to talk nicely (and mean what one says), how to make the other person feel special, and how to learn what is important to oneself – these are all aspects of dating. Giving and graciously receiving a SINCERE compliment is an important social skill. Just my opinion.
“In Rav Folks book on engagement it is not proper to compliment one another, so why do u think it is acceptable on a date?”
I would not presume to speak for Rav Folks (?) or any other rav. But the fact that he personally feels it is not proper, does not make it the absolute halacha. Many rabbanim bring their own personal biases to their interpretation of what is proper. There was a rav who was extremely makpid not to speak to women too much. One day he met (I believe it was ) Bruriah the wife of Rabbi Meir, and asked her how to get to a certain town. He actually said “What road should a person take in order to get to Lyddah(I think that was the name)?” She immediately chided him, reminding him that he preaches that it is assur to speak too much to women, and that he SHOULD have been more brief and said, “By which to Lyddah?”
The point is, not everything said by a particular rov who comes from a mindset built on his own life experiences, is necessarily the halacha. It may be, or it may be his own specific hashkafa. Anyone who believes that an engaged chosson and kallah should not compliment each other, is possibly a person who never believes in giving compliments, period. There are plenty of people who are emotionally withdrawn and unaffectionate in that way, and it breaks up a lot of marriages.
If you have a pool table in your own home, you have control over who is playing with it. In a pool hall, you have people who are probably not wever going to be on your invitation list, coming in , smoking, drinking, cursing, etc. and our kids do not need to see this.
If a school does NOT want to get involved it can only be for the same reason that they refuse to acknowledge a drug problem in the school. They don’t want to admit there are problems in THEIR school.
I have a nice story to tell, with a middah k’neged middah ending, as well as a Kiddush Ha-Shem. My husband an I were coming home from Brooklyn to the Rockaway/Five Towns area, it was late that night and we were exhausted. We were driving through the Rockaways, and while in Arverne, we were honked by some black ladies who were lost. They were trying to get to Queens via the Van Wyck Espressway, and had gone totally out of their way and had no idea where they were. We tried to explain how to get there, but they were just befuddled, so tired as we were, we told them to follow us, and we drove all the way to the approach to the Van Wyck. The women could not have been more appreciative, and with my husband wearing a yarmulke, it was obvious we were religious Jews.
Fast forward a few weeks – my husband took my son to a long-awaited ball game at Yankee Stadium. They got out rather late, and despite having been told how to get home, they took a wrong turn and ended up in Nowheresville. They had no idea where they were, no GPS, and it was late and a creepy neighborhood somewhere in the Bronx. Finally, someone from that neck of the woods drove by and my husband honked the driver and asked for directions back towards Kennedy Airport. The man started to explain, but it wasn’t clear exactly how to get onto the right road. So the man said, “OK, just follow me, and I’ll get you to the road you need.” He drove ahead of my husband and son for about 15 minutes or so, and then showed them the signs leading to the road they needed to be on.
In both instances, neither party looked at color, or religion, or monetary reward. They each saw someone in trouble, and went a literal extras mile or miles in order to help them. the fact that my family was helped in the exact manner in which we had helped someone else, gives me great chizuk.
LOOK at what people actually think is important – not the fact that someone is in shul not missing a minyan, but the fact that he is wearing footgear that someone else does not personally feel is respectful. There are Jewish people who dress in suits and white shirts, and maybe even wear hats and $200 pairs of shoes, who never set ANY foot in a shul, much less a foot wearing crocs. And we wonder why Moshiach isn’t here yet…
Guys should ALWAYS walk the girl to her door. It is simple good manners and a safety issue as well, for many young women. Bowling is fun, can be a real ice-breaker (especially the horrid way I bowl, which was always good for a few laughs), but I think in general,with few exceptions, a pool hall is not the best place for a frum couple to go. Many of them are known hangouts where a great deal of drinking is going on, as well as inappropriate language and smoking. there are better places to go.
The issue of sharing food is a dicey one, since it is considered so intimate an action, that it is a hilchos niddah issue. I do think that if a specific dish is ordered at dinner, such as a pupu platter or chummus platter, dishes which are designed to be shared, that it could be less problematic for one who is concerned about it.
As to complimenting on a date – well, there are compliments, and then there are COMPLIMENTS. Telling a date he or she “looks nice,” is not the same thing as saying, “WOW! You look HOT!” The former is a simple and thoughtful thing to say, the latter, however, is best said (if that expression is used at all) to one’s spouse, if one is so inclined, when not during a niddah time. I do get annoyed when I hear that a girl got all angry at her date for having told her she looks nice. Someone posted something liek that in The Jewish Press some time ago, and I thought the girl got all bent out of shape over nothing. She should have been appreciative of the fact that the guy realized the effort she had made to look attractive on the date. the only proper response, is a simple THANK YOU!
If the date is going really badly, I don’t think there is anything wrong with pleasing a headache, not in a nasty way, though, and asking to go home a little early. Still, if it just is a matter that it is not clicking, I think everyone should give a date a real chance. In my opinion, however, it is wrong to get a guy to spend a lot of money first and THEN decide to have a headache. My daughter has been on several dates with different fellows who were not for her for wahtever reason. She nonetheless was an interested and interesting conversationalist, a polite and friendly person, and no guy could ever say he had a bad date when he was with her, even if it was not the right shidduch for either of them.
My thoughts on this matter are that 30-40 years ago, people had much more normal lives. It was not considered normal for a young woman to look like a stick, in order to be thought attractive. The average size of a woman was 12-14, and a size 8 or 10 was considered beautiful. Tell a prospective mother-in-law that her son’s potential shidduch is a size 8 (and yes, there are some real dimwits who feel this is an appropriate question to ask), and she is already concerned that the girl is “running to fat..” or potentially going to be obese in the future.I find this preoccupation with girl’s size to be far more untzniusdig than whether or not her hair is cropped short.
So now our beautiful and healthy girls are trying to starve themselves into a more acceptable dress size, and are setting themselves up for a lifetime of health problems, both physical and emotional. I do not really believe it is such a prevalent problem among boys,but I will accept the poster’s words at face value. If it IS a problem, it also needs to be addressed and not swept under the rug.
OldBar makes some very salient points. Yeshivahs are falling short and dropping the ball when it comes to educating children of ALL ages. How can they tell a bochur not to smoke, when their Rebbie is probably lighting up in front of them? In my children’s Yeshivahs the administrators took the plunge and courses were given each year about the dangers of alcohol, tobacco, inappropriate behavior, STDs, illicit drugs, and eating disorders, which are sadly extremely prevalent in the frum community in recent years, partly due to the fact that more and more girls think if they are not a size 2, they won’t get married, and that is because of bochurim who ONLY want a size 2 trophy wife.
We don’t address the drug issue more prominently out of fear that <“If anyone finds out, it will hurt our other children’s chances for a shidduch.” That may be so, but if something is not done, it will hurt that child’s chances to grow up and live his or her life. I know of kids in my community who have died because of drug abuse. They were not trying to kill themselves, but it still happened, nebbich. How do you think their parents feel, knowing that if they would have had a non-judgmental place to turn and better information, maybe their sons would still be alive?
“shindy, it’s very easy to block the caller ID. That’s the first thing kids do when making prank calls. “
You can also have something on your phone line that prevents people to call you with a blocked caller ID. In order to call your line they have to first dial *82 or something like that before punching in your number, or your phone line will not accept the call. Either way you win. They cannot call you at all, or they MUST identify themselves.
It could be kids, true, but it could also be some pervert who gets her jollies from this type of call. OR, it could be that you should take this at face value, and it might be a kallah who has no female she can talk to, and is therefore calling different woemn hoping to get some help. In any case, if it is simply a stupid prank, find out who it is, and threaten to call the police. We once were getting annoying calls late at night (not of this nature), and after a couple of nights of this, we answered the phone, and my late father O”H made a clicking sound on the phone and then said in a different and very gruff voice, ” OK, Mahoney, we almost got the call traced! We only need them to call one more time and we will have their address in the system! We can arrest them on the next call!” We never got another call again. I was only a teenager then, but I still remember this.
“This may end up in a chilul hashem, i dont think this should be discussed in a public forum that people can and will take it in the wrong way. This may also be considered loshon haa against the some “frum” or “jewish” people. Im not a rov but just a thought.”
It is well-intentioned people like you who prevent kids who need help from getting the help they need. YOu call informing the public about this very real problem “loshon hara”
(YOU COULD NOT BE MORE WRONG), when in fact it is a matter of pikuach nefesh. By making the frum public aware of this tragedy within our communities ALL over, we can educate the families to look for the signs of drug abuse, and help their kids. The chilul Ha-Shem is in throwing these kids away. You are actually worried peopel will take it the “wrong way?????” Is there a right way???? There is only one way – and that is the way that leads to hatzolas nefoshos. I pity anyone who refuses to acknowledge that this problem may even exist in his OWN family, chas v’sholom. NO one is immune.
The cop was clearly an antisemite piece of whitetrash
please let me know if you can help “
First, you won’t get court fees reimbursed, so forget that. If you want to fight the ticket, and try to do so by mail, mail photographs of what your license plate looks like, and what the actual view is from behind the wheel, so you may be able to get those ticket fines removed or reduced. If you choose to fight, be aware you could be compelled to attend court in the neighborhood where you received the ticket. As to the orange light, red light issue, it is your word against the cop’s. Whose do you think the court will take? Your wife can testify, but that will not get you a reprieve – she’s your wife! HOWEVER, if you have compelling evidence that the OTHER two tickets were bogus, you might be able to take a shot at convincing the court NOT that the cop is anti-Semitic white trash, but that perhaps he erred in prematurely thinking the light was red, when in fact it was still yellow/orange. Bottom line for the future – – when you are not in your own hometown, be aware that state troopers and neighborhood cops can be very territorial, and they love squashing out of towners. Don’t break the law, even a little bit (yes, I know, your wife swears it was still orange). On the chance that it turned red at the moment you passed it, don’t leave yourself open to that kind of problem in the future. Wait another two minutes for another green light.
Good luck in proving your case. BE VERY RESPECTFUL.
I am a mom who feels that my work in caring for my family is very holy. Having said that, considering WHO it is (for the most part) who is home with the children, helping them with their homework, studying with them for their tests in limudei kodesh, those mothers had BETTER know their chumash and navi. Most fathers are NOT as involved with their children in this regard, whether because of work hours or hours spent in the Beis Medrash after work. It is a really good thing that the mothers are well-educated, so that at least one parent is helping them.
We paid for our Rosh Hashana seats, and when my son came to sit down, found it occupied by someone who did NOT pay for it (we have a seating chart, and the person was not even supposed to be in that row). My son made no comment, found himself another seat, by checking the chart for availability, and made certain to come early enough the next day to sit in his paid-for seat. The other person came back the next day and sat somewhere else when he saw the seat was already occupied.
Any frum Jew who says there is NO drug problem in the frum community, either has blinders on or is in serious denial. Before we talk about illicit drugs, there is a huge problem with the abuse of such drugs as nicotine and alcohol. There are too many Yeshivah boys who smoke and drink. Now on to the illegal drugs – it would be genuine naivete to deny that the frum community has its share of pot smokers and pill poppers, as well as harder stuff. I tragically know of young people in my community who have died because of their drug abuse. And it isn’t just in the “modern” Yeshivahs. It is ACROSS THE BOARD. It is our dirty laundry, and unfortunately, it is getting aired more and more often nowadays.
To all those who gave this young woman chizuk – yasher Koach. You are compassionate and caring Jews. To the ones here who criticized her without even having seen her (so they are really in absolutely no position to judge whether or not she dresses b’tznius, assuming they were right to be judging anyone, to begin with), I say that you are the type of people who actually end up being marchik instead of mekareiv. Your elitism, rather than being inclusionary, is misguided and misplaced. I sometimes wonder what haKadosh Boruch Hu is thinking when He hears this woman cry at night. I cannot presume to speak for Him, but I am thinking that it is possible He might be none too pleased at the onaas devarim that some people are committing, which is probably far more serious than her code of dress issues.
Jo-Jo what you are noting is unfortuately prevalent everywhere, from the most modern Orthodox Shuls, to the most chareidi of Yeshivah or Chassidic minyanim. Children, in general, are being brought up without being taught simple good manners, with a sense of entitlement (like their parents before them). They run around in Shul, disturbing people who are davening, without any control. When an adult admonishes them, they make faces, speak disrespectfully, and go on with whatever they were doing. Had I done such things, my parents would have been embarrassed and taken appropriate steps to correct my behavior. But they never had to, because they taught me how to behave, and showed me by their own example of good behavior in or out of shul. that is not happening today, all too often. Although I do somewhat question the wisdom of bedavka going to sit down at a table clearly populated by 10-12 boys (was it a Bar-Mitzvah? were there any other seats available?), still, the boys were out of line to speak disrespectfully to you.
Sometimes I feel we should go over to the parents of such boys (though not at someone’s simcha), and mention to them very casually, what happened. They may be unaware (many parents make themselves “nisht vissendik” about these things.
I am pretty sure there was a time in Jewish history when no one wore jackets, suits, ties, and Borsalinos. As to the Crocs, instead of focusing on the (in your opinion) “inappropriateness” of the footgear, whouldn’t it be better to focus on the fact that the person is davening regularly altogether? For the record, when my husband had foot surgery, he was thrilled to be able to walk to shul on Shabbos to daven with a minyan at all, and so what if he was wearing slippers and (OH MY GOSH) NO SOX on that foot, because he could not put anything on the foot for a week. Should he have not davened with a minyan, if he was always makpid not to miss it? Sometimes people are so caught up in minutiae, that they forget the larger picture, which is avodas Ha-Shem, and not what type of shoe one is wearing.
Our Tzelem Elokim is our Neshoma. Ha-Shem has no corporeal form, so our concept of average, whioh is referring to a corporeal aspect, is not applicable. Ha-Shem gives each of us specific talents, abilities, challenges, and a tafkid or purpose in life. Perhaps it is the purpose of one person to be a healer, another to be a gadol hador, another to create beautiful music or art, another to teach, etc. Perhaps it is the tafkid of one to be average or less than average, in order to teach us certain middos of hwo to relate to each other in spite of our differences. If we were all brilliant and talented, there would be no concept of average, or rather THAT would become the average.
I greatly respected R’ Shlomo Z”L. His music was incredibly beautiful, inspiring, and changed the face of Jewish music to make it truly “singable” and emotionally connected to the masses. There was a time, nevertheless, that some people found his derech of kiruv to be a little “out there.” I believe that he indiscriminately reached out to so many disenfranchised people both male and female, and was responsible for the return of many Jewish souls to the Derech Ha-Shem. He used Ahavas Yisroel, and put his money where his mouth was, in order to draw Jewish youth closer. If anyone has anything critical to say about his methods, I would love to know exactly how many lost souls THEY helped return to Torah life.
Easier than easy – pour some teriyaki sesame marinade sauce over the tuna or salmon steaks and then bake covered at 350 degrees until the fish flakes easily.
Chareidi is a very subjective concept. To a non-frum Jew, anyone who is Shomer Shabbos and appears to be kosher, may be viewed as Chareidi. In my husband’s family (he is a baal teshuvah of thirty-six years’ duration), they think that anyone who goes regularly “to temple” is “VERY Orthodox.” What I as a modern machmir person, might view as being chareidi, is a whole different kettle of fish. I think that most people who read Yeshivah World News most likely view the Chareidi Jew as the more Yeshivish or
chassidish type. It’s the kind of thing where you know one when you see one. And yes, I agree, they do not dress BETTER, just differently from how some other ALSO frum people dress. If my son wears a colored Shabbos shirt, and not only white shirts, he is no less frum than those who only wear white. He likes to wear Shabbos suits that have a subtle stripe, and maybe they are navy, grey, and only sometimes black. I will stack him up against any so-called chareidi. His Middos tovos and ability to give over a d’var Torah are such that people could do well to emulate him. My husband, who did not grow up frum at all, has more appreciation for and dedication to observing the mitzvos, than many yeshivish people in my community, especially in the area of doing chessed. This is not to say chas v’sholom that chareidi people are not baalei chessed. But sometimes some of them are not. It does not come automatically with the territory of being chareidi.
LGBG mentioned the story of Moshiach’s Hat, and it is a very telling story. People are so busy checking out the size of each other’s brims and crowns, that they look down upon the boy who comes in to daven three times a day with a minyan, with “only” a
kippah on his head. And we wonder why so many frum kids go off the derech.
“oomis – Proper tzinius dress in the summertime is the same as in the wintertime. Additionally, I think you can be very confident that our Emahos covered their legs.”
I never said they didn’t cover their legs (kindly re-read what I wrote). They apparently wore long robes or dresses to the ground(as was the style in that region of the world for most women) which do cover the legs entirely. That does not mean however, that they wore STOCKINGS or even socks. And to respond to the comment made by Head in the Sand, Michal dared to give Tochacha to THE KING (she was out of line to do so) out of the misguided concern that he was belittling the malchus. From all I have been taught in Yeshivah, she erred. And she was punished for not showing proper kovod hamelech. And I would never dream of being motzi shem ra on anyone, much less your great-grandmother! It is not for you to decide if I gave up my Olam Haba for comfort. If so chas v’sholom, I will be in very good company with some very choshuvah women, rebbetzins, baalos chesed, and oskei tzorchei tzibur, who like me do not wear socks in the heat, though we cover up otherwise. As to the grape leaves remark – please remember that Ha-Shem’s concept of human tznius originally entailed the wearing of NO clothing. The unclothed body is not inherently untzniusdig. It was the AVEIRA of Chava and Odom that changed those dynamics forever.
Instead of trying to prove to me how choshuv it is for ankles to be covered up, why can we not agree that there is a machlokess on this very subject, the Chazon Ish was machmir in his views, and the Mishnah Berurah does not necessarily agree with his sevara. I am not arguing with you, because I respect your right to follow that derech. I follow a different Rov’s opinion and ailu v’ailu divrei Elokim Chayim.
I have total respect for any woman (AND MAN) who dress b’tznius, as they understand the concept and as their rabbonim teach them. The danger lies in your deciding that your understanding or your rebbe’s/yeshivah’s understanding is the ONLY correct view, and therefore anyone who does not adhere to that view is not “frum enough.” There are people who have committed terrible chilulei Ha-Shem in their zealous attempt to bend the world to their religious observance. I am just saying that there are shivim panim l’Torah, and maybe someone else’s view is as valid as yours, though you probably do not see it that way.
Instead of letting out a cry of oy nebeach, pull out a tehilim and join this holly neshama in his pain
Instead of doing either of those things, first try befriending him, being there for him, and stopping others from tormenting him. THEN take out a Sefer Tehillim and daven for the neshamos of the spoiled brats who are torturing him and making him feel worthless. Better yet, go to their parents and ask them to teach their children better middos. Maybe Moshiach will even come. Sorry for the rant, but this is a hot button issue for me. I have seen children being bullied by others, and I am proud that one of my children stood up to one such bully who was beating up on a smaller child (on the bus going home from Yeshiva). He got between the two kids, ended up with his own glasses getting broken, but stopped the attack. By the way, when I called the parents of the bully to tell them how their son came to my son’s glasses, the mother told me my son should learn to mind his own business. Small wonder that the child was such a bully.
yoshi – great post.
– how about the boys that try to open your doors when you stop at stop signs or red lights — one boy kept knocking on my window, finally, I rolled the window down and asked whose lap would he like to sit on.
It was a great post. I had a similar experience recently. A teenage boy clearly frum, knocked on my window as I was stopped at a light. He asked me for a ride into town. The ride totally was on my way and if it were an emergency I would have driven out of my way as well, and he looked familiar to me from the neighborhood, though I didn’t know him. I gave him the ride to a store five minutes or so away, but on the way I said to him that I thought he had taken a very big chance stopping a stranger and asking for a ride (I had, too, for that matter). He replied that he picks his rides very carefully. I told him ax murderers come in all sizes and appearances. Just ask the girl who survived Ted Bundy.July 8, 2008 3:00 am at 3:00 am in reply to: Out Of The Mailbag: (Taking Issue With School Administration) #627675
To Yid613: Your harsh remarks about parents being ingrates and deserving to send their children to public school, really appalled me. What on earth did any of that have to do with the fact that people are complaining that their children or spouses have worked in Yeshivahs and not been paid – or have been outright cheated of their pay? You need to re-think your position, and try to understand where your own anger is coming from.July 6, 2008 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm in reply to: Out Of The Mailbag: (Taking Issue With School Administration) #627670
While it is true that Batei Din exist, unfortunately as anyone who has been forced to take someone to Beis Din has found out, it is very hard to get satisfaction from the experience. My husband after much anguish, made the decision to take his Yeshivah employers to BD for owing him over $2,200. He had not been paid his salary in months, but being a dedicated teacher, continued to work, believing the lies he was told. Finally when he respectfully requested that he be paid the several months’ back pay, he was issued three post-dated checks. They were written against an account that had NO money in it. That was what put him in the mode of going to Beis Din.
While the BD acknowledged in their p’sak that he was totally right and owed the money, a very simple decision to reach, they had no power to compel the Yeshivah to do the right thing. The yeshivah pled poverty and “agreed” to pay him ONLY half the amount owed, over the course of the year, and he should eat the rest of it. My husband was owed more than 4 times the amount they offered, and he refused to take the money. He had no reason to trust those checks would not bounce also. He also was not letting them feel they were now off the hook, so to speak, to ease their conscience that they paid him, when in fact they were saying,”we know we owe you, but we only want to pay you half.” As I said in my other post, there is a din v’cheshbon after 120 years, and the people who did this will have to explain to Ha-Shem how they could be so dishonest as to issue three checks to someone, knowing their were absolutely worthless. My husband did his job well, in spite of not being paid. I am saddened to see history repeat itself 20 years later with my daughter being shafted in the same manner.
As to the person who has made the comment that we are motzi shem ra on these mosdos – well, that is specifically why I have not mentioned their names. But truthfully, you are castigating the wrong people here (and in doing so, are guilty yourself of a form of lashon hara), with all due respect. The ganavim, the liars, the fraudulent employees of these Mosdos – THOSE are the people to whom you ought to be directing your remarks and mussar. All any of us has done is bring to light the fact that having a certain amount of power can be corrupting,and just because a person has the title Rabbi or Principal, does not exempt that person from mitzvos bein adam l’chaveiro.
When a person promises a salary and then fails to pay it, he is oveir on SO many lahvim, that one would think that a truly “frum” person would be quaking in his boots. It also breeds ill will towards these mosdos and towards frumkeit altogether, to tell someone basically that this is G-d’s Will for him to suffer. EVERYTHING is G-d’s Will, but that does not mean we should lie back and allow people to make a shamttah out of us. We also have an obligation of “hochayach tochiyach es amisecha.” If you see a wrongdoing, or are aware of it happening in the community, we have every right to speak out against that wrongdoing, especially in a public forum, where those people may see themselves in the discussion, and possibly take steps to rectify their outrageous behavior. Please do not blame the victim or his/her support group for bringing these issues to light.July 3, 2008 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm in reply to: Out Of The Mailbag: (Taking Issue With School Administration) #627654
To the parent of the daughters who were so ill-treated by their school employers: I truly empathize with you. I have watched the virtually identical scenario unfold with my own daughter this year. She worked in a well-known girls’ elementary Yeshivah in the suburbs for eighteen months and was an amazing assistant Morah in both the first and second grades. She was offered a substantially better paying job after the first year of working in this Yeshivah, in a different Yeshivah in the neighborhood, but really loved the job at the first school, its administration, the teacher with whom she was paired, and most of all, the students. Weighing all the pros and cons, she discussed this candidly with the administrator of the first school, who really wanted her back, and was assured that if she stayed, two important conditions would be met: 1) a certain minimal financial increase would be guaranteed, though she really asked for more than that but agreed to settle for a lower amount and 2) she could come in each morning after 9 AM (which was really a crucial factor in her decision), even though the school day started around 8:15. She was not only told that the increase was a done deal, but that the person in charge would even try to get a little more, which would be closer to what she originally requested. She was foregoing several thousand dollars of pay at the other school, because of these assurances.
She was asked to do the administrator “a favor” and come in at the 8 AM time (amounting to an extra working hour every day for five days each week, for which she had not agreed to work)until after Succos however, because they were short on coverage and did’nt yet have an assistant for that one hour. Needless to say, that one hour each day until after Succos, turned into ” we don’t have anyone yet,” for several months. My daughter felt bad for the adminstrator not having the coverage, as well as for the classroom teacher, so she continued to do this, because she is a responsible and caring, dedicated employee, who wanted things to run smoothly in the class. And it was only going to be for a short while, right?
Each month, as her paycheck came around, she saw that she was not being paid based on the gross salary to which she had agreed. And no, there was NO written agreement, exactly as described by the original poster. “No one has written contracts, here.” was what was told to her. As she had no problem the first year, she had no reason to expect a problem in the next one. WRONG! She came to speak to the administrator and to the bookkeeper (who had never been informed of the raise, by the way), and was told it would be straightened out. After being given a runaround for several months, and respectfully requesting that the oral contract be honored, she was told that the conversation had never taken place, and she was never told she would be paid what she agreed to be paid. Mind you, she was not even being paid for the extra HOURS each week, even based on a non-raised salary.And she never HAS been paid for those hours.
The administrator at one point acknowledged that my daughter was correct, but then did a 180 degree turnaround virtually the next day and again denied that she had ever agreed to my daughter’s terms. My daughter is an extremely honorable person (which is why she continued to work under these dishonorable circumstances),and it shook her to the core to see that someone she admired and trusted completely could be so unworthy of that trust. At best, this administrator is an incompetent fool, who cannot keep track of her own conversations (and she kept writing things down on little pieces of paper every time my daughter spoke with her, month after month). At worst, she is an outright liar and guilty of gneivas daas, because she made promises to my daughter which she had no intention of keeping, in order not to lose her as a teacher. As I said, my daughter is an outstanding teacher and beloved by both her students and the teachers whom she assists. She is a consummate pro, and never let her anger and upset prevent her from doing her job and giving it her all each day.
She eventually became so disillusioned, that after the administrator lied to her for the millionth time, she calmly got up in January and told her, that unless this was immediately straightened out once and for all, she would not be back. I am not sure the administrator believed she would go through with it, but my daughter had had enough. She was immediately snatched up by another school where she has worked until the end of the school season.
There is so much more to this story, that I cannot even put into words. Frankly I hope this administrator is reading these words and seeing herself in the story. Maybe she will even have charata and do teshuva for the anguish she put my daughter through, with her deceit and procrastination at doing what she promised to do.There is a din v’cheshbon for all of some day after 120 years, and I am sure she will “have some ‘splainin’ to do,” at that time. I urged my daughter to take the school to a Beis Din, but she did not want to bring shame to the school or to its administrator, who is well thought of in our community. Personally, I think that someone this unable to run a school honestly and/or competently should not be in such a position of authority and good standing in a community. But what do I know – I’m just someone’s mother.