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Sushe: The Aveira we’re discussing is looking at women. A woman who’s dressed up probably isn’t looking at women. If you wanted to talk about Lifnei Iveir, you should have said so.
Yitay: I used to think like Akuperma, then I saw that Gemara and thought like you. Then I realized that the Gemara wasn’t talking about the Issur Histaklus but about the issue of V’nishmarta. The point was that these women were so exceptionally beautiful that even seeing them could be a problem.
And about your Diyuk in the Lashon, the Aramaic Shorech Istakula is closer to the Hebrew R’iyah than to Histaklus.
HaLeiVi: I once asked Rav Schachter about handshakes. He said that if she’s pretty it’s probably Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor. If she’s not, it’s probably Muttar Lechatchilah. And I was intentionally vague about it because what is considered Derech Chibah can be so different based on the time and place. (I know of a prominent Rabbi who once told kids in a co-ed high school that high-fives were fine, but those would certainly be Derech Chibah and Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor in other communities.)
HaLeiVi: There are many bigger reasons to think (hope?) that the Moreh wasn’t really written by the Rambam other than apparent contradictions. The first time I went through it I realized that if anyone today had written it he would be accepted as an Apikores by all of K’lal Yisroel.
Berlin: The Poskim never mention music because it is very recent that people can constantly have music in their homes. It’s a logical application (not extension) of the Minhag.
Chacham: No, because I won’t be there when I shave. It’s not Assur for me to shave and then go somewhere else. And shaving with most electic shavers (well, I don’t know most, but certainly mine) is Muttar according to the vast majority of Poskim.
ANONANO: When people say Rav Kook, they mean Rav Avraham Yitzchak Hakohen. Rav Tzvi Yehudah Hakohen Kook was his son, unless I’m mistaken. Either way, citing that in the name of Rav Kook is misleading and, as pointed out above, historically impossible.
HaLeiVi: Doesn’t the Gemara say that if she was pretty they wouldn’t look at her?
Intelligence is hard to judge on a forum. It could be a lot of people, though the Wolf and Popa immediately come to mind.
The most knowledgeable is without a doubt hello99, and it’s probably not even close.
Patri: His disagreement is with your assumption that the words of these Seforim are meant to be taken as an absolute truth in every case.
Yungerman: See the Nodah Bihudah O.C. 1:14, I think. I shave often (2, 3 times a week) during the year. But I always shave Friday before Shabbos. It’s a lack of Kavod Shabbos to have the scraggly startings of a beard that I will get red of as soon as possible. Kavod Shabbos is a Din D’rabannan (maybe D’Oraisa to some Rishonim). Not shaving is a Minhag. The D’rabannan wins. My only remedy would be to decide to grow a full beard and just start it now, something that I am not really wiling to do.
I don’t really have a problem with being clean-shaven every Shabbos during Sefirah. I do it every year. Just this week, I’m going to be a guest somewhere where I’ll probably be the only one clean-shaven. I don’t really mind that either, I’m just worried that some Kanoi will misread the Shulchan Aruch and attempt to embarrass me publicly for this. It’s not quite Lifnei Iveir on my part, but it’s probably not a good idea.
Wolf: See the Rambam who explicitly states that this doesn’t apply to one’s wife.
HaLeiVi: That should be a Machlokes Achronim. I don’t recall who says what (I learned this in like 4th grade), but I know there is a Machlokes Achronim about whether Kol Ishah is because it will cause you to have a Hirhur for this particular woman or because it will cause Hirhur in general for any woman.
Sushe: No one is saying that these things have no effect. We’re trying to point out that believing that such a thing always has the same tangible, absolute effect in this world is wrong, foolish, and probably a misunderstanding of Emunah.
PBA: Shaving on Friday Rosh Chodesh is mentioned B’feirush in several Achronim, though I don’t recall if they said it’s okay or specifically said it’s not.
I have the opposite problem. I hold you have to shave every Friday during Sefirah. I’m currently searching for a Heter not to shave tomorrow and can’t find anything even close.
Think: We assume that most Negiyah, and certainly all Negiyah within a relationship, is Derech Chibah V’ta’avah. Everything except for incidental contact with strangers, really.
Rabbaim: Yes, I’m aware of that Shittah. No, we don’t hold like it. At all. There’s no Mitzvah in removing Tefillin. That Shittah only works if you wear Tefillin all day (and possibly only if you hold that Layla Lav Zman T’fillin, which we don’t).
You’re right. It’s entirely possible that sushe is a girl (though I think he’s said he’s a guy before). If sushe is a girl, then I apologize.
Chacham: Aww, really? You wouldn’t post them just to see if they’ll get past the mods? Even if it’s a straight quote of the Ya’avetz?
The Shulchan Aruch is a right-wing fanatic?
Csar: That would be an Issur D’oraisa of Nezek in this case. Unless you’re saying do what Avraham Avinu did with all of the things that weren’t A”Z (i.e. nothing).
Try standing up (only half-facetious here).
Chacham: The Ya’avetz also says that the Moreh Nevuchim wasn’t written by the Rambam…
What do you mean? It’s Assur to get physical pleasure from any interaction with any woman (aside from your wife) with any of the five senses. What more needs to be said?
PBA: I’ve admitted I’m wrong before in here… I think. 🙂
Sushe: Why are you checking these things? Oh, and I just asked two girls. They disagree with your claim on that M’tzius.
(Maybe we can be Dan you L’chaf Zechus that you did extensive research on this with your daughters so that you can know what the proper Halachah should be?)
Sushe: True. So what? Just because a Sefer can give us a general rule does not mean that HKBH, on the infinite scale that He has to deal with the world, will never have overriding contradictory things to judge by here. Once again, see the Gemara I quoted earlier which says this exact thing. Nothing in this world is absolutel
Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor.
Berlin: I was providing the Mekoros I was asked for earlier. The contemporary Poskim all say that this Minhag against dancing includes listening to recorded music (R’ Moshe, TZ”E, Shevet Haleivi, and others, and the common Minhag seems to be like that). Rav Moshe and the TZ”E both do say that even singing is Assur during this time. The Minhag, at least from as far as I’ve seen (and I asked around a lot after I saw those T’shuvos), is to not hold like that, possibly because of the reason I mentioned above.
Patri: Can you honestly believe that anything in this world is an absolute? What do you do with the Gemara in Kiddushin I quoted above?
Chacham: It’s Mefurash that a woman can read the Megillah for a man. Unless you want to say that means read without the Trop (which someone would have said), then it’s obvious that whatever musical inflection is involved in Leining isn’t enough to be considered Kol Ishah.
See the Pri Megadim A.A. on O.C. 551:2. That is the basic Makor for our Minhag not to listen to music. See the Sh’arim Metzuyanim B’halacha on the Kitzur 122:2 (with the Kuntros Acharon) and 126.
The Beis Yosef in O.C. 560 discusses the Halachah about music all year round. The Minhag almost everywhere is to be Meikil for “Shiros V’Sishbachos” (560:3). The Beis Yosef also mentions that to be Mezarez Bim’lachah or to remove depression is okay. The Poskim bring those two ideas down in several places.
See the Tzitz Eliezer quoted above (15:33) and the Igros Moshe that he quotes (I think O.C. 1:166 or so). But, as I said above, those two base their Issur of a capella for Sefirah off of the idea that you don’t listen to any music all year round. I didn’t see the Igros today, but I don’t think either of them mentioned the issue of being M’zarez Bim’lacha either way. Still, since neither explicitly disagrees with the Beis Yosef there is no reason to assume that they do.
Chacham: From the way the TZ”E Paskened like R’ Moshe for Sefirah I got the feeling that Os 1 was a Limud Z’chus.
Write or wrong: I would find him something religious that he can enjoy. Find some cute Chaddishe vorts about Mitzvos so he can feel and enjoy doing Mitzvos. Also, try and go easier on him with the things that aren’t as important. If he’d stop wearing black and white but would start wearing Tzitzis again instead that’s a tremendous plus. He’s still your kid. Make trade-offs. Tell him that you won’t let him hang out with friends all day but in exchange for being allowed freedom most of the day he has to do some things for you. Also, you can disapprove of what someone is doing and still love them. Show him that you support him as a person, even if you don’t support his actions.
PBA: I stand corrected.
PBA: I thought Mekomos Hamechusim was also Muttar by Ishto Niddah. They’re not? I guess I could be wrong but I thought that was Muttar from the same S’vara as Yichud is. (And no, I’m not married.)
Loyal Jew: I don’t know what Rebbe cards are, but the fact is that dance for the sake of dancing and enjoyment is very difference than dancing for the sake of exercise. I could hear if you would claim that jazzercise-type things are Assur during Sefirah (zumba, taebo, etc.). I would probably be uncomfortable saying that’s Muttar, especially if the person has other exercise options. But there should be no reason whatsoever a person can’t have his music on to help him jog or bike or anything like that.
Rabbaim: What Ein Ma’avirin Al Hamitzvos applies to taking off Tefillin? And anyway, we don’t really say Ein Ma’avirin by Tefillin because we have a specific Drashah that whenever you’re wearing the Shel Rosh you need to also be wearing the Shel Yad.
Frumisrael: There are Rishonim against that idea (sort of). It’s not Bal Tosif if I refuse to eat Chametz on July 15th. It is Bal Tosif if I refuse on Motza’ei Pesach.
Chacham: He doesn’t answer PBA’s question, from what I saw. Interestingly though, he threw in two Halachos in there to show that he doesn’t hold like the Sridei Aish.
Also, his question in footnote 96 seems to be against a B’feirush Gemara.
Loyal Jew: There is a big difference between enjoyment and exercise. Enjoyment is what the Minhag is to avoid. Exercise I think is B’feirush in the Poskim that it’s Muttar to listen to music to help you exercise (I’ll look for specific Mareh Mekomos if you want me to though).
PBA: I think you’re wrong on that. The Halachah is that a man can look at a wife when she’s a Niddah. Why would singing be any different?
Toi: I’m not sure what you mean by that. I don’t believe in this right and left business anyway. I follow Halachah as brought down in the Poskim. I’m not sure why others expect differently, either “Lehakel” or “Lehachmir”.
MDG: That’s not an Issur of Kol Isha, that’s an Issur of looking/interacting with a woman in any way for inappropriate enjoyment. Afilu Etzbah K’tanah…
I thought it was a Segulah against things being stolen.
Patri: Any Sefer, just make sure to quote it. Kol Ha’omer Davar B’sheim Omro Maivei G’ulah L’olam. You wouldn’t C”V want to do the opposite.
YT: You’re right. The OP is the one who wrote it wrong.
Thanks for the correction. I changed it – YW Mod
Ahaben: You don’t. It’s your issue, not hers. Wear earplugs. (At least, if she’s not Jewish. If she is then there might be some interesting discussions.)
It’s Muttar to sleep on a Sefer? I guess if the Segulah is common maybe it’s okay if the Sefer is made A’da’ata D’kach? I dunno. It’s an interesting question.
MT: Exceptions exist in a lot of things in the Hebrew language, including pluralizing words. This is not such a case. Please, tell me, what was wrong with my P’shat in the Gemara?
ORA does take cases of a woman who refuses to accept a Get, that much I know.
Mexipal: I don’t have a Yom Kippur Machzor here with me. How is that Chata’im spelled? I’l be willing to guarantee that it has a Kamatz under the Ches and not a Patach under the Ches with a Dagesh in the Tes.
I think some of the posters in this thread are showing a fundamental flaw in their belief of how Hashem runs this world. (Not that there is any flaw in their Emunah, rather there is a logical flaw in how they apply it.) Some posters here seem to think that if a Sefer has a Segulah, it is an absolute guarantee that this will happen. This is, obviously, not true. Whenever you state an absolute, you will be wrong. (Slightly relevant anecdote: I know someone who went off the Derech because he had a friend who earned a fortune on Tishah B’av and the Gemara says that someone who does business on T”B won’t ever see a Siman Bracha with that money.)
The Gemara itself, however, acknowledges this. The Gemara (maybe Kiddushin 39b?) mentions that one of the reasons that Acher stopped believing was because he saw a kid who was doing a Mitzvah die while doing it. The Gemara then asks how that could have happened in the first place. One Tanna (Amora?) gives the answer that in a dangerous situation, a Shliach Mitzvah can be hurt. The Gemara then rejects that answer and doesn’t provide one. We have a K’lal that a Shliach Mitzvah is never hurt.
How, then, can this assurance go against reality? The point is that HKBH runs this world and has to decide what happens on an infinite scale. While it may be that, short-term, a Shliach Mitzvah is protected from harm, that’s only when all else is equal. Sometimes HKBH just has overriding concerns to take into account.
So too here. It’s silly to say that stepping on someone’s foot will determine her every decision for the rest of her life. That’s just obviously not true. What it means is that she will have much more of an inclination to be the more passive one in the relationship if someone would do this.