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If I’m not mistaken, they say that Bayis Sheni lasted 165 years longer than we say it did.
This is a famous urban legend. In some tellings, specific names, dates, and city/state are mentioned. It never actually happened.
Avhaben: That’s just not true. It’s Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor, not Yeihareg V’al Ya’avir. If it’s Derech Chibah for one party but not the other, at worst the non-Derech Chibah party is Lifnei Iveir.
PBA: That would be a Carmelis (unless it slopes far enough downwards, in which case things could get interesting).
Yaff: The problem with that Shittah is that it’s very hard to say because K’rias Shmah can be said in any language. Saying with a slightly different Havarah shouldn’t be any worse than saying in English. (It could be that R’ Moshe holds like the Ritva quoted in the Bi’ur Halachah in the Siman 65, but that’s also very hard to say because it’s a very minority opinion in the Rishonim.) For things that require Lashon Hakodesh, however (like Birchas Kohanim), changing Havara should be a major problem.
Csar: Interestingly, several of R’ Moshe’s concerns go away when there is no physical presence with each other. Even he might not hold that texting is D’Oraisa.
Yichusdik: It’s interesting that you mention that example. While learning with someone, I once pointed out that the technical Halachah is that it’s Assur to use a church/convent/monastery to save one’s life, even in the Holocaust. I once later heard someone say that all of those who put their kids in monasteries will have to give a Din V’cheshbon on it. I almost smacked him in the face, told him that he was Mevazeh thousands of Frum Jews and Talmidei Chachamim, that he was Chayav Nidui, and that he had to go to the camps and ask Mechilah from the remains of all of those holy Neshamos who were lost. (It’s actually a funny story what happened then. He got very scared and, just to keep himself safe, decided to tell this story to a very prominent very right-wing Rav, who he assumed would agree with his assessment. The Rav agreed with my response to the letter.)
HaLeiVi: I know of that Chidah. It’s very much a minority opinion. We assume that baseless superstition is an Issur D’Oraisa. And it doesn’t matter whatever cute reasons we can give it. The Halachah is that any superstitious action which is believed to have an effect on this world that doesn’t actually is an Issur D’Oraisa of Darchei Ha’emori. This falls under that category.
Correct. There is no Chiyuv to research every culture to make sure we didn’t borrow from them. However, where we know that something is borrowed (actually borrowed, not started independently) that’s precisely what Chukas Hagoyim is. And HolyMoe’s story is textbook Chukas Hagoyim. We straight-up borrowed an Avodah Zarah Minhag if that’s the real source for this. If that’s not Chukas Hagoyim then what is?
MCP: Whether a non-Jewish woman is inherently an Ervah is a separate Machlokes between the Rambam and Tosfos.
Patri: I think they saw a custom that a lot of people did and defended it. I don’t think the Gedolim borrowed this custom from Christianity, I think the Hamon Am did.
Itche: From what I saw, it was a Pagan/Christian idea as early as the second century CE.
Sabzi: That is the oldest reference that exists. Correct, the Minhag predates writing it. So, as I said earlier, it’s around the turn of the 19th century or a bit earlier. The Christians’ Avodah Zarah Minhag in this regard predates it by over a millennium. I don’t know why people can’t see, at the very least in this case, that it is obviously a borrowed Minhag with roots in Avodah Zarah Mamash.
Mdd: My bad, that’s the Gemara I was referring to earlier. (I’m terrible with Daf numbers; they all always get jumbled in my head. So what’s Sanhedrin 38 or 39? Is that what happened to Adam Harishon on the first day?) It’s not clear about anything because according to one Ika D’amri there it had to be a Hora’as Sha’ah L’migdar Milsa.
Avhaben: Rav Moshe says that you can’t switch from Ashkenaz to Sefard but that you can do the opposite.
Dullradiance: The difference between all of those customs and this is that those were mentioned in Jewish sources long before the pagans did it, or at least long enough ago that we can assume that our custom predated theirs. This has not been a Jewish custom for thousands of years. If it was, some Rishon, Acharon, or Kabbalistic work would have mentioned this. The custom doesn’t show up anywhere until the year 1800. The Christian custom, on the other hand (same custom, same time of year, same stated effect-Parnassah), predates that by well over a millenium. There are cases where other religions co-opted our customs. This, Rachmana Litzlan, is a case of the reverse.
Didn’t we have this thread already? It’s all of it.
Unless you’re talking about Hashgacha on Nahar Pras. The word P’ratis is with a Tes. 🙂
Squeak: I don’t know what those Rebbes knew. It’s entirely possible they didn’t study the history of every single Minhag. What I do know is that this is clearly a pagan Christian Minhag. The evidence is more than overwhelming. I know when I’m willingly taking on everyone when I’m completely outgunned. This isn’t one of those cases.
And please, by all means say what you think. There is very, very little that I take personally.
Mdd: Well, not so clear anywhere in the Gemara. (Not that I know of, at least; if you have a Gemara that clearly says it, by all means please share it. And no, the Gemara in Sanhedrin around 38b is not clear like that.) But definitely B’feirush in the Shulchan Aruch.
Squeak: I don’t understand. Care to elaborate?
Sam2: Once again, it’s nice to know that you think that you can apply anything in a life-or-death Shaila. I’ll happily say that Shomer Negiyah is Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor and there are many obvious cases where I’d Pasken that way if I was literally the only person available to Pasken such a thing. I’d never have the guts to think I can Pasken a particular life-and-death case though.
I would never say no to a Bracha from Wolf.
Yoyo: I wouldn’t marry a smoker. Why can’t he stop (or at least start stopping) first? Second-hand smoke kills. Why would you put your life in danger by marrying him?
Yitay: No, PBA got it. And even more than that, because a few of the YCT guys (some of whom are actually Frum) are some of the biggest anti-Chabad out there.
Csar: So it’s nice to know that you think that your shoulders are broad enough to hold up a life-or-death Shaila.
PBA: Not the irony I was noting. But I won’t state anything more explicit here. And I think L’ma’aseh many say that Hotza’ah is Ma’aseh Shabbos. It’s a good Shaila in Lomdus though and there should be what to be Meikil on in a tremendous Sha’as Had’chak.
Csar: I said I won’t debate what’s Derech Chibah or not, because Derech Chibah is inherently very subjective. In general, we assume that almost everything is Derech Chibah. When it comes down to particulars, that is for a qualified Rav to judge in each case.
Exlakewooder: I’ll repeat what I said, but I’ll break it down and be clearer because I don’t think I said it over properly last time. At least, I could have made it easier to understand.
1) Correct. There is a Machlokes between the Rambam and Tosfos as to whether or not a Niddah is included in that category. Tosfos says no. The Rambam says yes. We Pasken like the Rambam. There is no distinction whatsoever between someone whose wife is a Niddah and someone who is with an unmarried Niddah in this regard.
2) Touching is not a Harchaka. Harchakos are not handing her/passing her things, not sharing a plate, etc. According to all Rishonim (except for one opinion quoted but not ultimately accepted by the Ramban), Negiyah with any Ervah, be it your wife who is a Niddah or any other married woman-with the exception of one’s mother (and somehow the Minhag is to be Meikil by sisters V’tzarich Iyun Bazeh)-is it’s own separate Lav. Thus, since it’s a Lav which is part of the Issur Arayos, we Pasken that it’s Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor. Thus, this is not a Harchakah, but a real Issur that applies to all Arayos. So, whether this Issur applies to one’s wife while she is a Niddah (or to any unmarried Niddah), once again goes back to our Machlokes between the Rambam and Tosfos. We Pasken like the Rambam.
PBA: Also, there is good reason to say that something carried in not an Eruv isn’t Ma’aseh Shabbos because there was no change in the Guf of the object. (I’m noting a tremendous irony here, by the way. V’ahmeivin Yavin.)
Chacham: What do you mean by Makor? for making these Challos? The earliest Jewish source for this is from the Apter Rov in at the turn of the 18th century. Christians had been doing this since around the second century. This is not a Jewish Minhag in any way, shape, or form and is without a doubt Assur Min Hatorah.
Fedup: That’s a nice Limud Z’chus at best, but we know that it’s just historically inaccurate. The Christians started shaping bread like keys (which were shaped like crosses) for the Sunday after Easter. They were doing this hundreds of years anywhere before any mention of this appears in any Jewish source ever.
Csar: I really don’t want to debate what is Derech Chibah and what isn’t. Yes, hugging is almost always Derech Chibah. In your scenario, unless the guy was dating her or something like that, it would probably fall under the tiny percentage of times when a hug is not Derech Chibah.
Writersoul: I would guess we call it Darchei Ha’emori because they were known for their superstitions. I think I saw that mentioned somewhere but I don’t really remember. It makes sense though.
I just want to clarify. I’m not against all Segulos or Minhagim based on Kabballah. Far from it. There are many Minhagim that we have whose Makor is in Kabballah. Those “Minhagim”, however, without a real Makor in Gemara or Kabballah or that we can clearly see where we borrowed it from the pagans (and this is the absolute best example) are clearly Assur Min Hatorah, no matter how many people picked up on it over the years. (And especially Bizman Hazeh, where everyone in our society loves to borrow Segulos and Chumros from each other, these types of things can spread so easily and quickly and it’s a real problem.)
Writersoul: There was an argument within the government when they created the day. The religious faction wanted to add Yom Hashoah to Asarah B’teves, which would have been a tremendous Kiddush Hashem and would have been recognized by almost everyone. Sadly, the government made the other choice. And they put it in Nissan, no less. But I think many now realize it was a mistake and if they could do it again even many of the more secular would choose Asarah B’teves.
PBA: While I can’t disagree with you if you want to say all of those things because YCT isn’t frum, it’s still very hard to call their wine Stam Yeinum. Unless you want to claim that it’s not that they’re not frum, it’s just that they’re all Apikorsim. That’s also tough to say, especially about the Talmidim (though it’s very easy to say about certain members of the staff).
Midwesterner: It could have been grape juice or Mevushal.
Has anyone else noticed that in this thread people are mostly judging intelligence by whether or not they agree with those posters’ outlook on life and Judaism? I found it very ironic, actually.
Exlakewooder: Touching isn’t a Harchakah. It’s a Din D’oraisa. And whether a Niddah is an Ervah or not is a Machlokes between the Rambam and Tosfos. The Shulchan Aruch Paskens like the Rambam that it is Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor.
(In the example someone gave above the girl would not be required to be killed since that wouldn’t be Derech Chibah. Also, I think if the Shaila was ever asked L’ma’aseh that many, many Poskim would be willing to be Somech on Tosfos for the person to not allow themselves to be killed.)
Chacham: Is it my fault that I don’t like it when we borrow Avodah Zarah Minhagim? This is worse than most as this one we know for sure what it means to them and that it came over to us several hundred yeas later at the very least.
That is one of the main Ta’anas that most of the Dati community have against Yom Hashoah. In fact, in many of the religious schools when they commemorate Yom Hashoah the don’t focus on that fact. I know of at least 3 dozen people who have told me that they never even knew Gevurah was in the name until they went to Eretz Yisrael.
Because the vast majority grow a great deal. If it’s not right for your kid, don’t send him/her.
The source for Schissel Challah is a Christian custom that long predates any Jewish custom of it. Making these Challos is probably, at best, an Issur D’Oraisa of Chukas Hagoyim and/or Darchei Ha’emori.
Yungerman: If you start growing a beard then you’ll look bad for a few Shabbosim, but that’s part of growing a beard so there’s no other choice. I am not growing a beard. An Avel does not shave Erev Shabbos B’soch Shloshim, but it’s very hard to say that we treat Sefirah like Shloshim. We probably treat it like Aveilus 12 Chodesh, at which the point for shaving is Ad Sheyiga’er Bo Chaveiro. Trust me, my beard’s at that point. (Not that I hold that that last point is relevant anyway as a Minhag can’t trump the D’rabannan of Kavod Shabbos.)
147: It’s only Muttar to shave on Yom Ha’atzma’ut if you say Hallel (or, at least, it should only be).
Someone once tried to explain to me how they now had an instrument which can’t be Assur on Shabbos. It basically uses some sort of magnetic frequencies and it creates music by passing your hand in the air between them. I don’t know if it’s Muttar on Shabbos, but it sounds like a really cool idea regardless.
Berlin: An echo by Shofar is not Yotzei because you are not hearing directly from a Shofar. It’s still a musical instrument. One wouldn’t be allowed to play a horn in a cave on Shabbos or Yom Tov. You’re missing the point that this Minhag to Asser it is late only because until recently everyone assumed it was Assur all year round anyway. To be Holeich Achar Hameikil here you would first need a legitimate opinion Lehakel.
Yungerman: I don’t think she’s his only option for Assur thoughts, unless she is so attractive that she actually is considered Trei Ivrei D’nahara.
Mdd: That’s not what I meant to imply, but when you put it that way it sounds bad. My point was it’s just a handshake. If he wants to think whatever he wants about a handshake that’s his problem. Someone could be the most Tznius person in the world and if a person wants to enjoy looking at her he will. We can’t and aren’t obligated to prevent Menuvalim from being Menuvalim. If a Menuval wants a handshake to be Derech Chibah, that’s not our concern. If she is attracted to him and shaking his hand is Derech Chibah for her, then it’s a problem.
Hane’elavin V’ainum Ol’vim…
Sushe: Learn the Halachos of Lifnei Iveir before you make such a statement. But yes, someone who does such a thing will have to answer for that in Shamayim. But I don’t think it’s Lifnei Iveir.
Yitay: I hear. Both P’shatim are tough for me. The only real issue is that I feel like I saw someone somewhere make that Chiluk between L’histakel and Lir’os. Otherwise I’d say it has to be like you say.
Sam4: Some interesting points in there. Are you trying to be Medayek from how he only mentions twice “Laseis Yad L’ishah”. It’d be interesting, but I don’t think that’s what he meant. The bus thing and change things are also interesting, especially because R’ Moshe and the Tzitz Eliezer both clearly say that the bus is okay.
MDD: She wouldn’t have Chibah and we don’t care what his Kavanos are.
Yeah, but if it was part of the Issur Histaklus it would have said “Afilu B’etzba…” like the Gemara does in other cases. Histaklus is Assur even when V’nishmarta isn’t an issue and V’nishmarta is an issue even where Histaklus isn’t.