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sdd: The Gemara might be saying that one of the two reasons that people kept Yom Tov Sheni back then was because of a “Minhag”. The reason we keep it is because it’s a Din D’rabannan.
Health: If you were the PM, what would you do? Be honest. What would you do, and how would it keep people safe?
I believe the main Beis at YU says Slichos, if that’s what you’re asking.
LF and 147: It’s a Machlokes Achronim. The Lomdus is fascinating and sometimes kind of strange.
DY: Presumably a Minhag that was established not Al Pi Beis Din can be removed by a B”D. It’s unclear if this is considered establish A”P B”D. I would presume that it is. I would also presume, though, that a Minhag that is established with a particular reason in mind can become Batel (by a B”D) if the reason is Batel. I think the Rambam says like that in Hilchos Sanhedrin. And there’s a long Tosfos on this… somewhere.
This probably falls into the Machlokes Achronim referenced above, but I would presume that when we are again Mekadesh Al Pi R’iyah the Halachah goes back to anywhere that can find out in time will keep one day (which is what the Halachah is based on now, contrary to popular opinion; it’s not E”Y vs CHU”L, it’s E”Y and Aratzos HaSmuchos vs CHU”L), which will presumably be everywhere.
2 day Yom Tov is not a Minhag. It is a Din D’Rabannan. This is a very important difference.
To 4 decimal places, pi is 3.1416. That is 3.1315 to 4 decimal places.
DY: It’s clearly something he does 🙂
Joseph: There are a few hard-line Yeshivish types (not NK, but definitely those who walk out during the Tefillah LeShalom HaMedinah). There are also a few of the J Street types, but those are all in the college instead of the Yeshiva anyway.
Health: I have never once claimed/admitted to being from YU, though you have accused me of it before. And why does that mean you can’t talk about Zionism. There are plenty of anti-Zionists in YU.
Health: More Jews were killed in Israel than in Lebanon last week. Should we move there?
secret: That’s not a Tanach question.
Also, the pi thing is quoted B’shem HaGra, but I’ve never found it inside. It’s still cool though (it’s only valid to 3 decimal places, not 4, but the point stands).
DY: Eh. I don’t think “Jew” is any more offensive than “gyp/jip”, which I hear people say all the time.
DY: I agree. That being said, I have met one Rov (and he’s not crazy) who does, at least for himself.
nisht: Yes, I have been there. I’ve been there for Shabbos, too.
Joseph: Have you ever been in Kiryas Yoel after sunset on Friday night? And the (very, very) few that I know of who are concerned about this can not in any way be called “Modern Orthodox”.
DY: Yes, but it’s not predictable in this case. There isn’t an increase in terrorism every time Jews go onto HHB. Jews go up there every day. The terrorism only increases when the Beheimos doing it want it to increase. HHB is just a pretext, always.
(Very few) People don’t eat Satmar meat because of the Shabbos issue.
Not eating Chabad Shechitah is much more mainstream than not eating Chassidish Shechitah, which exists, but is very, very rare.
mw13: I was never clear on that. It could just be that many consider institutionalizing changing a Din as a violation of Mach’chish Magideha. And I don’t know if I’ve seen a Gra on that inside, but I’ve seen others mention it.
LF: Well, most “MO” people think that “Modern Orthodoxy” is about coming closer to HKBH also, so I’m glad we’re in agreement. Have a good Shabbos. 🙂
That’s Hilary’s point. They’re our enemies, who (Hilary thinks) we’ve been working with anyway to further mutual goals.
DY: February, like it always is. I don’t know if I’ll be stopping by, though.
mw13: One of the main Taanos on early Chassidim that many thought messed with Ikkarei Emunah was Aveirah Lishmah.
LF: You’re making DM’s point. It’s not a serious attack on Chassidus. He’s proving the opposite. He’s showing that just because there were legitimate attacks by legitimate Gedolei Torah on early Chassidus doesn’t change how Chassidus is accepted today. He’s implying that the same logic should be applied in the “MO” thread.
DY: If I ever meet you, I’ll mention names. I won’t say anything publicly. I don’t know how private these Rabbonim are in their Hisnagdus, but they exist.
the plumber: That’s my point.
DY: That is not true. I have met major Rabbonim who, though they don’t publicly say it, won’t have Chassidish wine or Shechitah. Some of the names might shock you, but it’s not really relevant. There are descendants and Talmidim (and descendants of Talmidim) of the Gra who still hold it Shtark. They are few, but they definitely still exist.
Ash: Ah, see, that is where our opinions will diverge. I do think we know what part of Har HaBayis the Kosel was. It was the outer retaining wall built by Herod. There is some confusion about that because some earlier Poskim (a few hundred years ago) were misinformed as to what the Kosel was, so now people think it’s a “Machlokes”. But it’s not. We know what the wall is.
Many, most prominently Chabad, hold that it’s a wall from the Beis HaMikdash because of the “Midrash” (that doesn’t appear in any pre-17th century source) that the roman general refused to destroy it to leave a Zecher for what Titus ruined and the other “Midrash” (again, also with no early source) that David HaMelech started to build the Beis HaMikdash and that this was the one wall he built so it could never be destroyed. Again, though, we know for a fact that that’s just plain not true.
PostSem: You have to be wrong. Not because you are, but because of what it implies. If the Yeshivos being on Bein HaZmanim is what caused these attacks to happen, then the Yeshivos are culpable for the blood that was spilled. I refuse to say it was their fault. Therefore, I reject your logic.
mw13: Your claim that HaKatan is the victims of most attacks here is equivalent to the media classifying the Palenstinian terrorists as victims once police officers shoot them.
Well, HaKatan’s taking an off the cuff humorous comment in the middle of a Shiur as a way to make R’ Schachter seem like a fool constitutes an ad hominem attack, and something the mods certainly shouldn’t have let through.
Franco: You clearly didn’t real all of my posts, not that it matters. There might be people who are more or less “MO” that do Issurim. That is no less an indictment on “MO” than Chareidim who do Issurim are an indictment on Chareidim.
And the award for ironic post of the year goes to…
Hakatan!
Hurling invective and ad hominem attacks does not make you right. It does, however, show that you don’t have an answer
charlie: You are wrong on Carson. It was a point about people defending themselves if they have guns, not placing culpability. You are absolutely right on Fiorina. Her attitude and demeanor are exactly like our current president’s.
Joseph and chareidimolim: I said “if” because there are a few minor assumptions that have to be made. We’re pretty sure where it was. Even if you factor in a few doubts, we can definitely still go up on 70-80% of Har HaBayis, not the 95% that some claim.
I know several people. Why do you ask?
Joseph: We kinda do. We know the measurements from the Mishnayos. If the Dome of the Rock is the Makom HaAron, then we for sure can extrapolate everything. If it isn’t, there are still parts of Har HaBayis that we know for sure are Muttar. There are just a lot fewer of them.
DY: Of course not. By your logic, though, it would be the right thing to do to stop violence against Jews. (Well, it wouldn’t because it would defeat the purpose, which is why I said locking up in the house.)
PBA: They’d miss out on the cream cheese. 99% of what he quoted and discussed were Rishonim. So if you missed the two minutes he threw in Kirkegaard, that’s fine. You certainly would understand what he’s talking about.
DY: So? Even honey can be sweeter if you add more sugar. No one would eat the cream cheese straight. It’s only when on the bagel that it has value. That’s why the Moshol is apt.
DY: That’s absurd. Your being alive (as a Jew) harms all of us here because it incites people by our existence. If you actually believed that claim, you would never leave your house (at least, not with a Kippah or Tzitzis or anything that makes you look Jewish) so no possible antisemite could know you exist.
PBA: I heard the Mashal he gave was like a bagel and cream cheese. The Torah is like the bagel. It’s the important part and what sustains you. But sometimes, if you have the other knowledge to use in conjunction with it, it tastes even sweeter. The knowledge of the natural world (and, to him, literature) was like the cream cheese.
DY: Count for a Minyan, maybe. Because we treat them as Tinokos Shnishbu. But eat by their house? Never. Not unless it’s store-bought goods with plastic Keilim. That I’ve seen.
mw13: Not quite. The Halacha-observant MO just don’t exorcise people who aren’t Halachic. But they won’t eat at their houses or whatever. It’s not who you hang out with. It’s just that you won’t kick people out of shul/school for being not Frum. The attitude is “better that they’re in shul than not” rather than “I don’t want them near me”.
Mammele: R’ Schachter quotes a Tshuvah by R’ Moshe, I believe (he definitely quotes someone on this), who says that those Chiyuvim were only before Mattan Torah, when those were the only things that identified us. Nowadays, we have a Torah to keep our identity. A Torah which did not give an obligation to give “Jewish” names, have distinctive clothing (though there are rules about what can be worn), or speak a certain language.
nisht and Joseph: Your argument is unfair and it doesn’t hold up. Why do I care if people incorrectly use being “Modern Orthodox” as an excuse. If I commit murder and say I did it because I’m a penguin, does that make me a penguin? Does that make all penguins murderers? It’s unfortunate that some people have confused the term “MO” with meaning “not actually Orthodox”. But that doesn’t make it true. I’m not a penguin, no matter how much I (or anyone else) claims I am.
Joseph and nisht: There are Chareidi Rabbonim who (mis)read Shulchan Aruch into thinking that you can cheat on taxes. They are few (and getting fewer), but they certainly exist.
Joseph: If you agree with my logic, then you have to stop claiming that “Modern Orthodox” people violate/don’t care about/ignore certain Halachos. if you agree to that, I will absolutely agree that no real Chareidi violates Halacha either.
DY: All of Orthodoxy is a No True Scotsman. Self-identification doesn’t make you something. It’s not a No True Scotsman argument to say that no white person can be black, as much as they want to identify as black. So they can call themselves Modern Orthodox all they want. That doesn’t make them Orthodox. And that doesn’t mean that others can smear those who actually are Orthodox just because some who call themselves “MO” aren’t actually. Just like there are those who call themselves “Chareidim” who aren’t actually Halacha-observant. That doesn’t mean that all Chareidim are. That doesn’t mean that it wouldn’t be an Issur Chamur to classify all “Chareidim” as “not-Frum” or “lax in Halacha” or whatever people want to say. Why is it any different with “MO”?
Hashemisreading: The number of self-identifying Modern Orthodox who wear pants (women) and actually keep all other Halacha is very low. It exists, and it’s a weird phenomenon (seriously, I once met a woman who won’t eat at my house because she only keeps Yoshon but wears pants), but just because they care about Yiddishkeit doesn’t mean it’s fair to qualify them as Orthodox. It’s a good thing that they’re still connected and mostly observant, even if not 100% observant, but it’s not fair to put them in the same group as those who are 100% observant.
DY: Our existence incites people to want to destroy us. It doesn’t matter what we do. There will always be an excuse and there will always be those who want our eradication. If you really want to decrease violence against Jews, you should make sure that Jews cease to exist. Otherwise, these arguments are foolish. You have fallen prey to antisemitic scapegoating techniques.
Disruption of Service
Flatbusher: A Women’s Tefillah Group, which a few (certainly not a majority) “Modern Orthodox” Shuls accept is not a “women’s Minyan”. No place that can honestly call themselves “MO” have partnership Minyanim, let alone full-fledged women’s Minyanim. People had to invent a whole new denomination just to get Partnership Minyanim to fly.
Well, I just read through Joseph’s whole Shpiel. I don’t know the history. I never lived in the 60s. But a lot of what he says there just isn’t true nowadays. You will not find Halacha-observant self-identifying Modern Orthodox people who violate Halachos (which Joseph neglects to name, aside from mixed swimming, which no one MO supports). That’s all I really need to say on the subject.
mw13: First of all, how many people do you know who go up? I know a lot.
Secondly, are you reading what you’re quoting? The Temple Mount is run by Jewish extremists? The Israeli government puts you in jail if you so much as move your lips while on Har HaBayis. Davening is illegal up there. Wearing a Tallis or Tzitzis out is illegal up there. The status quo is that the Muslims run it and the Israeli police enforce it. Their version of “returning to the status quo” is that we would cease to exist. If you give them Har HaBayis, they’ll find another excuse. Don’t buy into what antisemites say about us.
DY: Most people aren’t that politically aware. They see the idea, ask their Rabbi, if he says it’s okay, they go. It’s not about an “accepted, majority Psak” (I agree it’s a majority; I don’t agree that it’s accepted by everyone, as an aside). It’s about what their Rabbi says.
DY: That’s because the people in this thread are stupid internet commenters. For 90%+ of the Jews who go up, it’s either for inspiration or an expression of Hoda’ah to HKBH at the ability to be able to go up.
DY: I honestly never understood how going onto Har HaBayis became treated as a “Zionist/non-Zionist” issue. Why do people want to go there? Because they find inspiration and meaning in visiting the holiest place on Earth. We don’t question why people go to Meron or Kivrei Tzadikim. Kal V’chomer Har HaBayis.