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I agree with DY, but I would leave out a word.
PAA: I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. If a truly Tzanua woman who is Yarei Hashem wants to put on Teffilin in the privacy of her own home and without publicizing it, she has enough support for that before this R’ Chaim. And the Mekoros Assering still Asser. It’s a P’shat, but it won’t change anything in any direction in this discussion.
Charlie: Minhagim can make things Assur. Of course they can. Minhag is a powerful Halachic tool and consideration.
Also, your second paragraph is in theory not incorrect. However, it takes incredibly broad shoulders to say that we can go like Rishonim against the Psak Hamekubal in Shulchan Aruch and Achronim. Shoulders far, far broader than anyone who has supported this issue has.
PAA: Everyone agrees that according to the Maskana of the Gemara and most Rishonim women can wear Tefillin. The objection is based on the Minhag quoted in the Rama that developed either during or after the time of the Gemara. MiDina DiGemara it’s Muttar. But the very strong Minhag is to be Oser. That is what these people (let’s call them neo-Conservatives) are missing. It’s not Halachic because they think they can ignore the Halachic process and re-read the Sugya against the Rama and all the Achronim.
Softwords: That’s not a good answer for Michal because it assumes Darshinan Taama Dikra. We’re not Doresh Taama Dikra like that.
There was a Jew on the plane? Is he married? If so, we need to do everything possible to help find the plane. His wife truly is an Agunah.
Softwords: It would be nice of all of these things that you are saying have some sort of Makor… anywhere.
I have had several NCSY-type people who have since been Chozer Bitshuvah (and become very “Yeshivish”) if they are obligated to tell potential spouses about past dalliances with the opposite gender. I was told (by several major Poskim with whom I discussed the issue) that it is Assur to divulge such information as it would be an Issur Chamur of Lashon Hara (as it is often very easy to find out or obvious who the person was with).
Softwords: Pretty much everyone agrees to that. Let’s see what happens if anyone proposes cutting off all financial support to Chareidi Yeshivos. It won’t end well.
And who gets to determine which “Gedolim” are angel-like instead of people? That’s ridiculous. Rabbonim have to be Domeh to a Malach in that they do their utmost to achieve the best a human possibly can. They have to be free from Aveirah (I feel like that’s Rashi’s Lashon).
No one has ever thought that Kollel was a bad thing. There were always people who would spend their lives learning and teaching. The Taana is against mass Kollel.
I have heard that from R’ Metzger, R’ Yonah Amar, and a Rabbi whose name I blank on, but he gives inspirational Kabbalah-type Shiurim all over Israel. I can never remember his name. It’s like R’ Ari Cohen or something. Also, a group of Avreichim in Beitar once said something similar when asking me to try and get them copies of his Seforim with different covers.
Chas V’shalom. This is insane. Mods, we let stupid coffee room posters determine who is a Gadol and who isn’t? And based on what? Said Rav’s Psak on a certain issue? It is well-accepted by many in the Chareidi world that no one has a greater Iyun in all of Rishonim than R’ Aharon Lichtenstein. This is, frankly, obscene. To denigrate (and yes, Mr. Joe Shmoe from the internet trying to tell R’ Aharon who he is M’shubad to is a gross insult) one of the leading Torah scholars of our generation is disgusting. Say you disagree. Say you have your own Gedolim. But don’t try to belittle someone who’s pinky toe you’ll never even dream of reaching.
This thread needs spoilers tags.
GAW and Akuperma: That’s a second issue. The country has a right to make these demands. What they should do when the Chareidim refuse is a separate issue. Hopefully some middle ground will be reached. How to deal with conscientious objectors is an issue the state will have to deal with after. But they do have a right to make this law.
And Akuperma: If they want to be conscientious objectors to the state existing, a perfectly logical and fair response would be to put them in their own area (let’s say Meah Shearim), cut off all economic support, and allow them to run their own country. Something tells me that wouldn’t go over very well. So they can call themselves conscientious objectors, but as long as they take money and use the infrastructure, Israel can demand that they be part of the country.
DY: I’m not saying that joining the army is more important than learning. I’m not saying that it does more than learning. I’m saying that any community, whether a neighborhood, city, state, or entire country, has a right to impose certain expectations on its members. A neighborhood can strongly request that you join the block watch and take care of your lawn. A city can force you to pay taxes and follow normal building codes and such. A state can force you to show up for jury duty. And a country, if it determines that it is necessary, can obligate you to perform some form of national service, be it army, volunteering, or anything else. So while learning might be infinitely more important than any of these, I do believe that the country, as a community that comprises far more than just Chareidim, has a right to make demands of them. And if the country determines that Limud HaTorah is not enough, then the country has the right to make that determination, whether or not they are correct.
Interjection: Well, at some point most people, no matter how much they love Torah, have to leave the Beis Midrash to support a family. But that aside, the law isn’t (and never will) force everyone to join the army/service. They’re asking for a certain number. These people who can’t live without a day of learning will still be able to learn anyway.
Once again, if I commit a crime and then run to the Beis Midrash and they come to arrest me, am I being jailed for learning? No, I’m being jailed for the theft/assault/whatever I committed. They might have to drag me out of the Beis Midrash to get me, but I’m not being jailed for learning. Same thing here. People would be jailed for having violated the law (not completing service). Not for learning.
PBA: If that were true, I would agree. I think we all agree that there are people out there who hate Torah. That doesn’t mean that is what this law is doing though.
Torah: Not being comparable doesn’t mean that there need to be exceptions made in every instance. You can appreciate learning Torah and still say that one is obligated to fulfill their duty as a citizen (by doing some form of army or Sheirut L’umi) because that’s an obligation of living in a country and nothing, not even learning Torah, can exempt you from that.
I was thinking of responding to just interjection, but decided not to. Now that Torah repeated it, I’ll make a point I made in an earlier thread.
No one is being jailed for learning Torah. That is rabble-rousing rhetoric. They are (potentially) being jailed for not joining the army. There is a huge difference. Yes, they happen to be learning while not in the army. But the jailing isn’t for learning. It isn’t illegal to learn Torah. The government will still be supporting tens of thousands in Kollel. It would just be illegal to not go to the army, no matter what you are doing instead-learning Torah included.
Someone at the Jewish Press got fired over publishing that, apparently.
DY: Even by Chassidim, there is a much, much higher societal stigma against getting a job in Israel than America.
Hakatan: Then why do so many Chareidim above the working age still not work? Every day there are new statements supposedly in the name of the Gedolim that getting a job is Assur and poison for Yiddishkeit and that you have to just learn and trust the money will come from somewhere. I have no problem with staying in Kollel and learning as long as it can be afforded. But the claim that the only reason they don’t work is because of the army law just doesn’t stand up to basic logic.
Softwords: That was a strong rant that was both irrelevant and misguided. To start, I find it unlikely that you would claim R’ Kook and R’ Soloveitchik as “Chareidim” in any other context, whatever that means. Similarly, there was no distinction between “Chareidi” and “Dati L’umi” in the time of the Netziv so going back that far gains you nothing.
Secondly, nowhere did he claim that no one should learn. He didn’t say that we need to stop Torah. He said that people should spend a few months-years in the army. That isn’t stopping Torah. That’s having a (small) part of your life that stops you from being able to learn.
And your claim that “Bnei Torah” (which is quite an insulting term used in contrast to his son) “put their lives on the line” is false and foolish. Who says they get anything for choosing to be destitute? Who says such a thing is even Muttar? If I suddenly decided to eat only 200 calories a day, that wouldn’t make me a Tzaddik. It would make me anorexic. So your claim that they are sacrificing their lives for Yiddishkeit isn’t Muchrach at all. They are sacrificing something, certainly. But the burden of proof that it is for the sake of the continuation of Yiddishkeit is on you.
DY and PBA: I spoke to several elderly Balabatim in my community, R’ Schachter, R’ Yankelewitz, R’ Hartman (from Ramat Beit Shemesh), R’ Sheinberg ZT”L, R’ Neuwirth ZT”L and others. Kullam K’echad say that, while there were certainly people who got very, very drunk, the overall Mehalach while they were young was nothing like it is in Yeshivos today.
DY: Just because there is a legitimate Shittah for something does not mean it should be Paskened by. A strong majority of major Poskim from the last 150 years have said to use the Rama’s Eitzah and not to get totally drunk. Why is that Halachic process ignored here?
DY: Don’t pull punches. I said I don’t actually think that (sort of). But the fact that it’s not an immediately illegitimate train of thought should say something scary about what Purim has become. I have spoken to numerous elderly people (Rabbonim and laymen) and every single one has told me that Purim in Europe was nothing like how we drink now. Very few, if any, got plastered the way a large majority of Yeshiva guys do now. Honestly, this sounds like a perfect case that fits the Rupture and Reconstruction theme.
PBA: That’s not true. If you do like the Mechaber many would hold that, if anything, you accomplished a Mitzvah Haba’ah Ba’Aveirah and you weren’t Yotzei anything.
Lula D’mistifina that it was Apikorsus, I would say a Davar Pashut that the reason the Chachamim over the centuries have not been Moche on drinking on Purim is a similar Cheshbon that the Catholic Church made with Carnival. I can’t say it, because I think that is K’firah, but when that’s what Purim becomes you’ve lost a Yom Tov and created a neo-Pagan holiday.
LF: Well, the Mishnah Berurah disagrees with you. He says even if you miss a T’fillah or Netilas Yadayim you shouldn’t get drunk.
And what Oomis said is absolutely correct. There are hundreds of people who can’t have their own Purim because they spend it saving many lives because people drank too much. I don’t know how they do it.
Also, walk through Meah Shearim this week and check out the Chal’lei Purim Pashgevilin.
JR: It’s not a law against Chareidim. It’s a law against everyone in the country. You have to go to the army, by law. Chareidim have a P’tur from the army of Toraso Umnaso. However, you cannot claim Toraso Umnaso (by definition) if you have another job. Chareidim have a choice. They can join the army or learn. That was the status quo since the foundation of the state. The issue now is that the state has determined that the status quo is untenable. There are too many people choosing to learn and the state can’t afford it as much anymore.
And just a technicality, but I thought a married person can work at 24?
LF: He’s talking about jousting. It’s clear. And that is even less than accidental because you know when you start that you could be damaged. So it’s K’ilu you’re consenting and saying that “I make a T’nai that I won’t charge you for any damage incurred.” It’s enough of a Chiddush that it’s spread to any damage Mitoch Simchas Purim. How much further are you trying to extend it?
Jbaldy: See the Biur Halachah on this at length. yytz is absolutely correct.
PBA: His Makor is jousting at weddings. Sometimes people do things that can cause damage Mitoch Simcha. You can be sober and dancing strong and accidentally rip someone’s shirt. That happens often enough.
PBA: The Rama (quoting from a T’shuvah about jousting at weddings) says that you are Pattur if you damage Mitoch Simchas Purim. I have heard several Poskim state (and a major Gadol once supported me when I said this) that this does not apply if one is drunk, because the Rama L’shitaso expects you not to be that drunk.
“The girl was dressed normally but the mothers skirt barely covered her knees!”
So you’re complaining that someone followed Halachah? I don’t get it.
jbaldy: Maybe it can be. I don’t think so, though. To quote a Rebbe of mine, “If you’re drunk enough that everyone sees your Pnimius, you’re not going to remember any of it anyway.” What do you gain, that everyone else can see how much of a Tzaddik you are inside? What is gained from that?
Frankly, the stories that Yeshiva Bochurim reminisce about from Purim makes me think that this is just what Goyish college students say about spring break.
I once overheard one non-Jew trying to describe to another what Purim is. He said it’s like Carnival. I was never as embarrassed in my life about anything in Yiddishkeit as when I heard that. It’s a Busha and a Cherpa that that is what people think Purim is.
I have several issues with this letter, from the tone to some of the phrases. However, I just want to point out that there is a gross logical fallacy being promoted here (and many other places).
People are saying that the government is making it a crime to learn Torah. That’s just not true. They’re still supporting tens (hundreds?) of thousands in Kollelim. They are just making it a crime to not join the army.
Imagine this analogy: a person sits and learns 24/7. He never reads his mail, never checks anything else. He just learns. One day, the IRS shows up at his door and the police arrest him for tax evasion. Did he get arrested for learning? No. He got arrested for not paying his taxes.
A similar scenario: Someone learns his entire life. He learns 24/7 with tremendous Hasmada. He gets up to Shamayim and the Beis Din Shel Ma’alah says he’s Chayav Kareis. He says what are you talking about. How can you give me Kareis for learning? They say back that they’re not. He gets Kareis for not bringing a Korban Pesach because he was learning instead.
I’m not fully on either side on this issue. I think the country has a right to ask the Chareidim to give back (with more than just Limud HaTorah) and I think that people who actually want to learn have a right (should they have their own means of financial support) to continue learning without pressure to stop. I also think it’s fair for the government to require some form of army service or Sheirut L’umi before someone can get a job, like any other citizen.
However, this emotional straw man frustrates me to no end. No one is going to be put in jail for learning. They (might be) put in jail for avoiding army service, which they do by learning. But no one is making learning a crime.
/rant
DY: That logical response, however, rings just a little false when there are things like yesterday’s Atzeres. If the opinion actually is that Torah protects better than anything else, why ever stop learning to gather and Daven (or protest, in other situations)? Learning should be a better defense. Or, in previous wars, when sirens went off people ran to bunkers, not staying learning.
I don’t mean this disrespectfully. I’m just saying that when push comes to shove, it seems that many, many people don’t really believe that the Torah protects them better than practicality.
About Frumkeit in the army. Yes, there are major problems. I have long since felt, though, that the more Frum people that join the more Frum the army will become, for obvious reasons.
Logician: I never said that we hold like this Meiri (presumably we don’t) or that it’s agreed-upon at all. I was just saying that your S’vara had support in Rishonim.
Golfer: I disagree. If you have an idea, present it. Someone who knows more than you can then either build off it or reject it. You have as much right to present an idea as a less-knowledgeable man does.
LF: Miut doesn’t translate to “few sins”. It translates to “fewer sins”. That’s a very important difference.
Logician: Your final paragraph is the Meiri’s S’vara why women shouldn’t learn. He says it should be Assur for everyone to learn for that reason but what can men do, they have a Chiyuv.
GAW: It’s not incorrect because an Eved is Chayav in Mitzvos. It’s incorrect because the Rambam holds that a Goy can volunteer any and every Mitzvah.
PBA: Purim is a day where things that are often considered disrespectful become okay. Don’t ask me why. It just is.
DY: He wants to know why an Eved can’t volunteer like an Eino Metzuveh V’oseh like a woman can. The simplest Chilluk is that an Eved K’na’ani is still a Goy and a Goy can’t volunteer certain Mitzvos because he would be impinging on our Bris with HKBH.
That would be incorrect, though. The simplest answer is that an Eved can volunteer to learn Torah (according to the Rambam), just like he can volunteer to do any Mitzvah according to the Rambam.
I thought the goal of a million was simple inflation. If R’ Ovadia’s funeral drew about 800,000 (by liberal estimates), then that should be the minimum to aim for for any future Kinnus.
First of all, when I say memorize I don’t mean random memorization of words with no understanding. Obviously you have to know what they mean and how to deal with basic Kashyas. But after that, I’m still not convinced that a lot of how we learn is how we were meant to.
PBA: There is a Chiyuv to know Kol HaTorah Kula by heart. Rote memorization sounds better for that than most Lomdus.
PBA: Both, maybe. People have had trouble convincing me that the Ikkar Talmud Torah is throwing everything ever in existence into Chakiros.
It is not so improper to say that most of learning is memorization. Not memorizing words that you don’t understand, but if you can memorize the Shakil V’tarya of a lot of Blatt Gemara (or memorize whole sections of Rambam, Shulchan Aruch, etc.) you end up being appreciated a lot more than the guy who can make Chakiras like R’ Chaim. In Yeshivos we enjoy and respect the mental backflips that we can do with Rishonim, but at the end of the day the Pashtan who knows Shas often receives just as, if not more, respect than the Lamdan.
It’s a B’feirush Gemara in Yevamos that we have a Havtacha from HKBH that a Mamzer that we don’t know about won’t have viable progeny (past grandkids).
GAW: The Rambam’s Shittah is a minority in Rishonim. The others make a Chiluk between Torah Shebiksav and Torah Shebaal Peh based on Nedarim… I want to say 34b.
Yes, there are (though they are rarely Mefarseim it), but your assumption is completely wrong.
See SHU”T Beis HaLeivi Siman 6, if I recall correctly.