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WoW: The Ramban was Melamed Z’chus on a lot of Mechashvei Kitzim. But we see that his Limud Z’chus was not correct. He felt they were on the eve of the Geulah in the 13th century. And here we are, over 700 years later, still using his argument that it’s still the “eve of the Geulah”. I get that some people find Chizuk in such things. But Chazal knew how people think too and they saw enough of a possible pitfall to say very harsh things about it (see, however, Avodah Zarah 9a give or take V’tzarich Iyun). It’s a field that we should definitely avoid. We live our lives, wait and hope every day for Mashiach to come, and don’t try to guess when that will be.
RebRY: And who made you the determining factor in what’s Tznius or not? Halachah says that a woman’s hair needs to be covered. It might be a long Shietel, but it’s covered.
(As an aside, if the person is wearing stockings then there might be room to say that the knee wouldn’t need to be covered at all times, but that’s getting into very questionable territory.)
Avi K: I honestly have no idea how to determine normative Halachah in these topics. There just seems to be a range that people are willing to accept. Beyond that range, even with Rishonim that back it up, does not fall into “standard Jewish thought”. What is clear is that calling all of Ma’aseh B’reishis a Mashal does not fall in this range, even though there are Rishonim that said it first. Does this make R’ Slifkin an Apikores? I would say probably not (he does have a fair few Rishonim to rely upon), though it’s clear that several tremendous Talmidei Chachamim think it does. What it does do, according to everyone, is make his books controversial, to say the least. And your pointing out the eventual acceptance of the Rambam (and that apparently Shamayim wanted us to accept him, for however much that actually matters) in no way affects my point.
Mdd: Why do you say they were Shogeg?
WoW: No one should read books that attempt to determine the Keitz.
Oomis: R’ Ovadia actually has a T’shuvah where he says that single girls should have to cover their heads while they Daven. Not their hair, but their heads, just like a guy can’t Daven without a Kippah on. In the end he says they don’t have to, but it sounds like he thinks they really should. (The Tzitz Eliezer deals with the same issue and says they shouldn’t, but he needs a fairly Dachuk Chiddush to say that).
Repahrim: I don’t think that’s true. Source?
Golfer: See what the Abarbanel has to say about “Som Tasim Alecha Melech”.
DY: I try and explain everyone’s comments (except for Joseph’s) in nice ways.
DY: Good point.
DY: I think I made exactly that argument. It’s what I was trying to say. (Or were you saying that I did it indirectly because I made it as an explanation of Zahavasdad’s statement? If so, you’re right. But I also happen to completely agree with my explanation of his statement.)
Mdd: No question. He was supporting you by asking a rheotrical question.
There is a very, very fine line that needs to be drawn. We need to hope and expect every day for Moshiach to come tomorrow. At the same time, we can’t say for sure that it will happen. The Gemara has very harsh words for those who try and calculate when Mashiach will come. The reason is because if you say that Mashiach will come at a precise time, then if you’re wrong it causes people to lose hope or mock (look at what happened with the nutcase and the rapture last year). So saying that this is for sure the lead-up to Mashiach is bad, because if C”V Mashiach isn’t here in 5 years or 10 years, people will say, “Look, everyone said all the signs were here but he didn’t come. Either he’s never coming or he doesn’t exist.”
DY: Ad’raba. It is for the generation to choose it’s Manhigim. The Manhig or Posek Hador is not always necessarily the one who knows the most Torah. It’s the people who know incredible amounts of Torah that the people are drawn to and accept. Now, the K’lal for the most part has chosen to listen to whoever R’ Chaim tells them to listen to. But if the K’lal would feel that R’ Shteinman is too moderate (you see the Shteinman=Kook graffiti all over Meah Shearim) then people might not be drawn to him even if R’ Chaim thinks that he is who we should be listening to.
HaLeiVi: I hear that. But if the Zionists made eating important or if the had decided to make certain foods “Zionist foods” the question would be the same.
Avi: The Rambam is certainly a tremendous support to rely on. But standard Jewish thought nowadays is nowhere near as rationalistic as the Rambam is. The Rambam was too rationalistic for his own time. That’s why some burned his books. Kal V’chomer would he be on the fringe if he lived today, after us having 700 years of Kaballah being incorporated.
RebRY: That seems like a foolish attitude. If the Zionists eat would you stop eating?
DY: Don’t the Poskim say that even if it’s Parnassah it’s Assur in the 9 days?
WIY: What’s wrong with listening to music composed by a Mechalel Shabbos? You should treat his music the same as any music by any other not-Frum or not-Jewish artist. If that’s not what you listen to, fine. But it’s not Assur. It’s not necessarily even discouraged (so long as it’s appropriate, obviously).
Choppy: I was Zoche to speak to him shortly several times after Davening and discuss Halachic issues with him (and by “discuss” I mean I would ask a Shaila and he would answer and I would sometimes ask a Kashya on his answer which he would quickly and easily explain; except for once when I felt his answer was unsatisfactory and that he hadn’t completely understood my Kashya (my Hebrew wassn’t so great) but I was too timid to try and ask again-Lo Habayshan Lamed).
Toi: He’s being an anti-Joseph. Maybe we should just let the two (i.e. 200) of them bash each other over the heads in their own thread somewhere.
WIY: Are you sure? I would think that towels are more like underwear, which is Muttar to wear freshly laundered (but not Muttar to wash) during the nine days.
Zahavasdad’s point was that all of history has been a wake up call for us. This year is too, but no more so than any other year.
Margol: Interesting link. Thank you. But the symbol is much older than that. We have Egyptian hexagrams dating back about 3000 years at least.
Shlishi: That whole controversy aside, this particular article of his is quite enlightening. He may have published borderline Shittos that we clearly don’t hold by in the past, but he himself is certainly not an Apikores (he is certainly not more of a rationalist than the Rambam was).
557: That was my nice way of saying exactly what you said. That’s what I meant.
Choppy and Akuperma: The “Jewish Star” was a symbol used by many Frum Jews long before the Zionist Congress made it their official symbol. I once noticed that in one of Rabbi Wein’s history books (I forget which one) there is a picture of a Cheder. In the Cheder there is a Magen David embroidered into the cover on one of the tables.
Takah: I don’t think that’s correct. Tishah B’av earns a Leining in its own right, not just because it’s a fast day. You should have been allowed an Aliyah at Shacharis, but not at Minchah, I would think.
That sounds like a nice Limud Z’chus for what we know was a pagan symbol before Matan Torah and for a symbol that first shows up in a Karaite Kaballah Sefer and somehow found its way into mainstream Judaism.
Choppy: People quote R’ Chaim as saying that Davening with a hat trumps T’fillah B’tzibbur. Even according to the quote in the OP, how do you know the main thing that beats T’fillah B’tzibbur there isn’t the jacket?
DY: R’ Chaim is misquoted from the source at the beginning of this thread. What if one had a jacket but no hat? There is no Hechrech from here how R’ Chaim would Pasken.
Shlishi: He still has Haskamos from R’ Shmuel Kamenetzky. The Gedolim who put one (maybe two) of his books in Cherem (I won’t say who) never even saw what he says in them because they don’t speak English. He was never given a chance to discuss or explain what he wrote. For all we know, the Gedolim who put him in Cherem were entirely lied to about what he published or were told something vague like “He says Chazal is wrong”, which isn’t what he says at all. And just because I disagree with something doesn’t make it an “untruth”, unless you respect my opinion that much. 🙂
We will all be eating on the ninth and B’ezras Hashem the tenth as well this year.
(Eating on Tishah B’av is no joking matter, by the way. I once had to tell someone to eat on Tishah B’av. I received a phone call from someone whose husband was very pale and almost fainted. None of the doctors she called understood the situation and why he couldn’t eat. None of the Poskim I usually call for such issues answered their phone within the first five minutes of me receiving the call. With the woman getting frantic and her husband becoming incoherent on a hot day, I was forced to tell her to make him drink. It is the single hardest P’sak I’ve ever had to give (I’ve told people on a few separate occasions to be Mechallel Shabbos but those were unquestionable Pikuach Nefesh cases so I had no issue whatsoever running to a phone or telling someone to run to a phone to call 911). I was physically ill from telling someone to drink and I couldn’t even learn over things just to make sure I did the right thing. I had no appetite whatsoever for the next day and decided to fast Yud as well in case I was wrong (I did drink a lot of water Leil Yud though). So no, eating on Tishah B’av is no joking matter at all. At least not to me.
Yekke: I was reading through some of Joseph’s claims on pages 8-9. Wow, there is so much to respond to those but no real purpose. Just for you, though, see the Aruch Hashulchan on Bedikas Chametz by women. See also the Ritva in Kesubos on Ein Eisha Me’iza Paneha for proof that social/societal/even emotional assumptions from Chazal’s time can change. (Granted, though, it is much, much tougher to say that Lehakel than Lehachmir like in his case.)
HaLeiVi: I think R’ Schachter once quoted a Ramban (possibly by the Gemara in Chulin of Treifa Chaya or not) that says they never argue in Metzius.
Shlishi: Not that you ever will, but I highly advise that you read R’ Slifkin’s piece on the founding of Chareidi-ism (his term). It’s interesting and while I don’t believe with everything, there is a lot of Emes in there. It’s worth reading if you actually want to be honest with yourself.
Takahmamash: I don’t think it’s Chukas Hagoyim. The origin (so far as I know) has nothing to do with Avodah Zarah and Jews have done it too. It doesn’t meet either qualification to be Chukas Hagoyim according to anyone.
I would think it’s Assur (or at least not recommended) to Daven for a particular candidate to win. Similar how the Gemara relates that one shouldn’t Daven to marry a particular girl.
DY: I think I was thinking of the Gemara in Shavuos, but that Rashi works too. Thanks.
Yekke: There are other Poskim in the world who are on a level to disagree with R’ Chaim (I won’t judge who is where or anything, but we’ll just leave it at that). So yes, his statement that not everyone Paskens like R’ Chaim is valid.
Kozov: Interesting. You mean the Gemara that says that a person would normally wear a Mapores and a Kovah? I’ve never seen one Sefer or Posek bring that down, and certainly not in regards to a Chiyuv by T’filah (it’s clear in the Gemara that that was just the standard style of dress at the time), but at least it’s sort of something. Thank you.
Nechomah: I’m not saying you’re not allowed to. Just that there’s no source that anyone’s ever been able to show me that says it’s obligatory. If R’ Aharon was Makpid for it then I would love to hear someone who heard from him say why. I’ve been wondering for years now where this fairly common idea (which I think, based on everything I’ve ever seen, is a misconception) came from.
Englishman: Machlokes Chachamim and R’ Yochanan Ben Nuri about rice.
Pcoz: Because there the bread is serving no purpose of taste or to fill you up whatsoever. It’s completely Tafeil because it’s only purpose is to make the fish palatable. That’s not true with the salad.
PBA: I know far too few Israeli Chilonim to get an accurate impression, but that’s the one I have so far.
PBA: My community? I don’t quite have a community, but thank you, I think. Hopefully whatever new law they pass will not coerce the Chareidi community into doing anything they don’t want to do. If people are actually capable and learning all day it would be a shame to take them away from that. And I don’t think the average Chiloni cares if the Chareidi is Frum or not. They just care that they not throw rocks and stuff at them. Hopefully whatever new law is passed keeps the Toraso Um’naso P’tur but incentivizes doing some sort of community service for some period of time (Mada, Zaka, etc.).
Choppy: Mock me. Fine. I don’t care. You don’t need to make up something about not teaching girls Gemara. I don’t know about going to Gehinnom, but there certainly is no shortage of Poskim who say it’s Assur. All I’ve said is that many rely on the Prishah, and his Diyuk from the Lashon is fairly strong.
Mom12: That is a good point. (Well, sort of; it’s not Tumah, it’s Nekiyus, but it does necessitate washing hands. Although I’m not sure if in Israel the legs below the knees qualify as a “generally covered part of the body”. That probably depends on precisely where and when. In some places, certainly, it wouldn’t be. But I think in most places, especially bigger cities and certainly in Chareidi neighborhoods, it qualifies as a covered place.)
Take it to the Olam Shel Emes? What, HKBH can’t know that you finished Shas without it? (Actually, I feel like it might have some value in Olam Haemes. I feel like a Gemara in Bava Basra might say that.)
PBA: Is it that they don’t want people to be Frum or that they don’t want Chareidi society to exist as it is (I’m sure different MKs have different goals)? Might that make a difference? The exact wording of whatever new law comes through will tell us a lot about the government’s intent, I think.
Choppy: I seem to deny truths not to my worldview? Was that a joke? I don’t have a worldview. I just learn and try to source everything I say and think in a Gemara if I can. And the source for your statement, I believe, is “Kol Haposel B’mumo Posel”.
I could tell you the name of my reliable source for this, if you want. But I hope that the mods wouldn’t let it through. This is the internet. It’s by definition anonymous. When (if) he publishes a Sefer some day and quotes R’ Chaim on it then I’ll show you my source.
Choppy: Hat and jacket is very different than hat. How do you know that the main Hapkada there is on the hat, not the jacket? And how does that change the fact that I heard from someone very reliable who heard from his mouth that he never said it’s better to Daven with a hat Bichidus than B’tzibbur without it?
(He didn’t personally write Sh’eilas Rav, did he? It was just someone who asked him questions and recorded the answers, right? Also, that last point is very, very strange. Why would he say you need two covers? There is no source whatsoever in mainstream Halachah for that. The only source I ever found was a Chabadnik who told me he saw it in an obscure Chassidish Sefer from the 19th century. I would love to ask R’ Chaim about that if I ever get the chance.)