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By having a driver’s license and ready availability to a car in the driveway, the reality is the woman will more readily and more frequently be going for a spin around town even if it isn’t an appropriate reason for her to be shpatziring outside
The words in bold were NOT
according to the Shulchan Aruch, Rambam, etc.
Your misrepresentation of Torah is very harmful, upsetting, serious
Also, I do think there are jobs that are better for men and jobs that are better for women (with the exceptions always present in behavioral sciences of course)just as there are jobs that are better for people with ADHD, better for people with poor people skills, better for people with no conscience, better for people with small families…
Just a few days ago I had this “men get paid more” discussion with someone who told me it has not been true for years. I know that it isn’t true at my job but don’t know if it is still true elsewhere.
Oh, I was only talking about Judaism…
I’m glad to hear you say that because life experiences usually prove that in regard to behavior sciences there is no such thing as definitive. From your posting it sounded to me like you would feel the need to ignore your impressions for the sake of the “written word”. I have seen psychologists do this and it drives me nuts. They will diagnose certain children with autism or other things based on the checklists even when life evidence gives them pause.
So can they negate the checklist? No, but they can use the discrepancies to look further into what is before them and possibly start storing up their own data base of exceptions. Those exceptions are also people.
Feminism doesn’t want women to have priority over men. Feminism just wants a level playing field for everyone.
I always found that funny because I never found a playing field that needed leveling. Perhaps women are feeling they want mans jobs and not having them makes them un-leveled. But decades ago I was taught about certain halachos that women do that only she herself would know if it was done correctly. And she, without supervision, is responsible for the neshamos of her thousands of offspring. Men’s mitzvos are generally more tzibur oriented and I am not sure they have any that carry that high level of trust. You can say all the kaddesh-es you want, I would rather be trusted.
jf – I think he was answering me. He used the term “wiring” which, in my experience, has always referred to the brain (different terms are used for other systems)and he was clarifying to me that he did not mean it in that way.
I have no interest in this back and forth, I find studies boring and only read them when needed so can I ask you an on topic but personal-feeling, as opposed to research-based-facts question?
Say you have a study, such as the ones you quote, or studies about children with downs syndrome or studies about hyperactivity – any study with that same level of definitive fact studies. Let’s say you have read that the studies are very firm on specific traits, but that you have worked with these individuals by the hundreds and don’t really see the same pattern or don’t see it as more than a 75%. I’m curious how you, as an individual, approaches that reality. Again, this isn’t to bring out my earlier point, it is because I am genuinely curious to know how you would approach it.
However there are certain parts of their brain which are different the same is of each and every person with a mistaken belief or delusion.
And it must be so for if there would be nothing different in the wiring they would not think differently.
no way!
not all thoughts/disorders/mental illnesses are appearant on the brain. Thinking differently is not about “wiring”. Some disorders have been known to show up in the wiring of the brain, such as Autism and I think ADHD(may be misremembering that one) but some people’s perceptions are emotional and even if it shows up in their bloodwork, it isn’t gonna show up in their MRI or EEG.
And by the way (not really sure which of the two sides this supports), the suicidal depression that transgender experience has proven to exist equally after the surgeries. The suicide rate did not go down in those who were able to realize their dream.
But regardless, according to the Tzitz Eliezer, once a person has the surgery, they are now considered the gender that they switched to, not the gender they were born as.
you talk about before and after the surgery but i don’t think it is clear that having the surgery is permissible. And that was heard from someone who had it.
Whether or not it is a longing, it is a nisayon. My close friend has a longing/craving/drive for something that is incessant but not permissible. There are ways to address that within the confines of halacha. Without taking the “poor me, I’m stuck because Gd dealt me a bad hand” path.
Rabbi Wallerstein discusses the eruv rav being footsteps. He gives the sources and reasoning. I don’t think it was his idea personally.
i don’t care how many people are doing that, you should never recommend such a thing to anyone
i didnt get the impression she was speaking of supply and demand. If she was that would be great.
We pay $50-$60 per hour for a Rebbe, less for an adult non-rebbe.
Remember, we’re talking about limudei kodesh, not high-level physics or mathematics.
I cannot tell you how that line disappointed me
i’ve had the same thought about him not wanting to be president but I think it’s to take down the democrats. He just got up there to expose the clinton’s for the garbage they do that everyone ignores. once it is finally over, he’ll step down.
jfem – don’t bother. This is a common “tactic” of Joseph and one or two other posters. They add adjectives that totally shift the meaning of the argument/point and then try to back you into a wall with it. When you force the issue it gets ignored, or they disappear. But meanwhile it is very frustrating. I noticed the same thing when he added those words but was too weary to bother.
It seems you missed one bait but found another 🙂
but it’s hardly a parallel so why bring it?
oh come now. do you bring comparisons like that in on purpose or are you really hoping to trip someone up?
Including your bateling reprimand.
🙂
But don’t neglect tochacha.
I don’t, you’re just not usually very receptive
Maybe she spent an hour debating between bateling on a moderated website or bateling on a non moderated one. So you shouldn’t provide tochacha when you see her bateling on a moderated site since she could’ve done worse.
not your kind – not that kind
here popa, I’ll make it easy for you:
There is no shidduch crisis. It only exists as an excuse in the mind of those who do not wish to take responsibility for/change the way they chose/discard suggested individuals.
It’s also a substitute for something called bitachon, but nobody wants to talk about that either.
Poof – now it’s gone!
jf2 – you seem to be getting very upset and carried away about things that weren’t even part of this discussion. Gravity?
I never had any questions. You made a statement that sexual orientation is hardwired and other things aren’t. I am saying that I don’t believe either one is definitive, there are way too many cases that don’t concur. If you want to tell me that there are MANY who disagree with me, fine. I don’t doubt that. But why would you even make a statement saying that it is all that one way and period. end of story?
As an educated and highly intelligent person you are well aware that there are very, very few things in science or medicine that are definitive to that extent. You want to say it is definitive in the eyes of x, y, and z? fine. You want to say it is the accepted theory in the institute of ___, fine. But I can’t imagine you are not well aware that there are many people out there with their own studies and statistics who disagree with your statements and you are welcome to follow your leaders while I follow mine.
I am highly confused about why you are finding this so upsetting. Not only is it common for there to be conflicting beliefs in science, but I have not negated your words in any way, I only claim that there are exceptions to your rule.
i didn’t say i was “right”. I said that i would not make such a statement definitively and i also said that medical science changes their conclusions regularly over the decades (that is a fact). I also don’t believe that ALL the medical experts have said what you claim, nor do I believe you know what ALL the medical experts claim.
You seem to have disregarded what I actually wrote.
I can only act upon what I have seen and experienced and learned from local experts I work with. If you know of experts who feel differently – great. That is why I did not speak definitively, and said nobody else should either.
if your question was directed toward me – yes. I have been in the health field long enough to know that what’s written does not always match what is. And that ten years from now they, too, will change their minds about half the things they swore to this year. I only say it because I have seen too much evidence supporting it.
I don’t think you can say that definitively about either of them.
I’m not so sure there aren’t people people born with predilections to murder or shoplifting. Working with people who have addictions and others who have painfully inappropriate taivos has taught me that there are lots of people out there who are working valiantly to walk in the Torah’s path despite their challenges.
And the pride parade is only about self esteem.
CTL-I would never expect or desire you to be disrespectful. But no, blunt would give the comment validity, which would be wrong.
Maybe a better way to express it would have been, “…and as my late mother rudely phrased it…”
CT – maybe you are missing the point. That’s very nice that your mother felt a need to wear gloves when leaving the house, calling it a rag is rude, to put it nicely. too nicely.
Although I find you do emphasize your economic status quite frequently in your comments, I have never found any of them insulting as this one was.
it wasn’t the word housefrau or the chemo comment, it was everything in between…
CTLawyer – per your description it sounds like your wife does not share your social tact. That attitude is highly insulting.
(unless that last paragraph was no longer a quote from her and was your words)
thanks 🙂
well your original comment was about it being right, and I believe it isn’t.
this second post of yours is about why they would WANT to, and why it would “make sense”. Judaism doesn’t work that way. And that you would use the fact that it’s an identifier in the general population as a reason why it should “make sense” surprises me. I thought of you as someone who had a clearer picture than that. The fact that it’s “out there” has no bearing on who we ARE or how we view our places in this world. The fact that the world is using this painful reality some individuals live with as a way to hold their heads high is unfortunate, not something to join up with. and that whole end about feeling isolated from the frum community so it makes sense to join up with a group who encourage violating Torah itself? Please tell me you don’t mean that.
My sister had liver issues and was told by her doctor at age 18 that her liver could not support a pregnancy. She knew that she could not marry someone who was able to have children. It was beyond painful, but she didn’t isolate herself, she made a point of finding frum people who would be mechazeik her, who were older and single, who were married and childless, and who were married mothers of huge families. She did not align herself with secular groups fighting for zero population growth. She was not her liver. She was not childlesness. she was not single and childless but also frum. We may have many identifiers, but we don’t have many identities. Who we ARE is a piece of Hashem embodied in a physical body with all that comes along with it.
writersoul – everything you say is exactly right but you cannot expect understanding from all sides. There will always be people who will prefer something doesn’t exist and accuse you of trying to water down religion or being progressive. The fact is that these people do exist. And they struggle, many of them marry and have stressful relationships with their spouses who either know or don’t. Rabbi Wallerstein asked Rabbi Gamliel about that point you mentioned- that they have no “outlet” and the answer is amazing, definitely worth catching that shiur.
I have to disagree very strongly, however, with your closing statement. Not about your feelings on it, obviously, but on being gay as an identity. I think it is wrong. 100% wrong. We are Jews with nisyonos and tafkidim and we do NOT identify AS our nisyonos. We do not identify as gambling addicts, pritzus addicts, baalei loshon Hora. We identify as Jews who were given a teva that Hashem tailor made for us that is our strength and our weakness and our job is to acquire dvaikus regardless/in spite of/because of our nisyonos. We are not our nisyonos, we are spiritual beings.
The conversation was not of note. It was more the way some of them get out of hand. I’d rather not re-read it because some of it is still painful.
Rebyidd – I did get emails, from some posters. is that discrimination or just indifference? Creepy? nah. Perhaps it’s because when Joseph didn’t post there were 30 less people in the CR…
mw13- thank you so much. Yes, that was the painful straw that broke the camel’s back.
I am shocked you noticed my absence, surprised you were able to identify the source (an amazing trait) and highly grateful and impressed that you apologized. Thank you so much, Hashem should reward your introspection, intuition and integrity with all things good!
“None of the alternative meanings that you’ve proposed…”
can you list them for me?
it remains your business for as long as you take it upon yourself to musser those who speak out and your words exist for viewing.
I read it that way and it gave me a bad feeling in my gut so i reread it and saw nothing different (i still dont see any change. people are merely explaining away the first half of the statement, not the second) I didnt bother agreeing until i saw that someone else felt the same way. he hasnt said a word about having been read wrong.
feivel – i take issue with your comment on many levels. if i believed the comment was in any way reflective of the person then i would have agreed differently. and if he said that it wasnt what he meant then i would have said i misunderstood and i retract it. you are making alot of accusations here that i supposedly did things that never even occurred to me, and i dont even know where you are coming from.
no, it was a direct response to an accusation
and you seem to have missed the fact that there was no judgement involved. Someone made a comment that sounded very much against the way we believe. the comment was called disgusting because you dont leave things like that open for others to accept. i agreed. nothing was said about the poster, about his political or religious intentions with the post or anything else. Being Dan L’zchus isnt even relevant in this situation.
so sorry buddy, picking on posters instead of posts is your MO, not mine.
i would agree with you in theory, but the impact of that type of statement in the way that it was phrased deserves that response. If it was mistated, there is the option to restate. and he has not indicated in any way that it was not what he meant so the response does, and should remain unless that happens.
i dont think that was the problem…but i will let him speak for himself should he so chose
Sam – i agree completely. i was surprised to see it got thru
Goq – you always manage to say something “uplifting”
CT – i am totally with you on not joining in the disrespect, but to actually defend her respect is a bit overdoing it. feel free to have confidence in her abiliities (tho i dont), but she is far from deserving of respect. i mean she herself didnt have enough self respect to end her marriage when her private garbage became public. if your own husband, the president of the united states can trash you and you stand there anyway, you sure arent worth much in your own eyes either.
on a side point, i think this thread is inappropriate and infantile to begin with.