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“So can we all agree that the root cause of these various problems is not lack of appreciation of the importance of adherence to Halacha or of treating people correctly, but of just not thinking things through? “
no, i dont think so at all. i think it is born of the intrinsic need to feed the ego/compensate for insecurities.
I would like to request leave this conversation without being accused of walking out. I have noticed both you and yekke, at least twice, twisting the points around a bit in the fashion of – yes, blue is correct, so we are both agreeing with blue and red, lovely – and I don’t.
I cannot decide if this is deliberate (or denial?) but i try to stick to a “policy” that if I can’t make my point understood after a few tries, it is best to call it a draw.
“The problems begin when cognitive dissonance causes rationalization, and people begin justifying their behaviour to be righteous and fool themselves into believing that this is unquestioning observance. “
exactly! yes!
although that boyfriend example is ridiculous because that person is trying to cover something he knows he wishes wasn’t true. A better example is someone who is not qualified, tactlessly giving tochacha inappropriately, possibly doing more harm than good.
(was your omission of what happens here in the CR deliberate or cognitive dissonance?)
if only
mw – yes, possibly. but i am sure that those who advocate for not being nice are doing so believing they are right, and they are the more vocal and visible ones and set a very bad example for halachik Judaism.
Like the story of Rabbi Silver in the DP camps. when a man gave up religion because he saw someone charging a days ration of bread for the use of his siddur. Rabbi Silver told him he should have looked at the line of people volunteering to do so instead. It is human nature to see the badly behaved and think them representative of the whole. which is wrong. But by the same token, people representing the learned *should* know better, shouldn’t they? Even those who hate us are expecting more from our behavior.
You are assuming the person in the presents-at-the-table scenario isn’t fully believing that this extra shtuch to the non-Jew is part of fulfilling the mitzvah. And that is the sole reason that when you call him on it, he believes you are denying the truth of the mitzvah itself.
Mazel Tov Nechomah!! Wonderful news! You should have many, many more simchos.
not quite sure we are on the same page but probably in a similar book.
Yes, I also noticed that the focused switched to the halachos and that is what i figured would happen. Its right back to the drawing board, one defending the need to be kind despite halacha, and one defending the need not to be concerned about being kind because of the halacha.
(tell me if Im explaining the right thing)
A. if you follow Torah and someone gets hurt (as in the hand shaking scenario) that is too bad because there was no other way to handle it. Halacha is the priority, not how the man will feel.
B. If you follow Torah and someone gets hurt but it’s because of the way you chose to observe the halacha, and not because of the halachas inherent dictates, (the bad middos display at the table), then it isn’t okay becuase the Torah could have been observed just as strictly without the poor middos.
Now imagine B has already ocurred:
You have some people saying that the bad middos are not bad middos at all because they were a part of observing the mitzvah.
you have other people who are saying that it was a gross display of bad middos EVEN THOUGH it was obligatory to not give the presents to the non-jew. These people are being mistaken for those who say that we shouldn’t make goyim (or anyone) feel bad ever regardless of halacha.
The quest for proper middos when observing halacha is often mistaken by some as a quest for kinder halachos or ‘feel good’ halachos, and that isnt always the case. I thought you were doing that.
“besides for the bad middos displayed? “
??? need there be more?
Do I disagree with any of it? I thought I said I didn’t. I disagreed with you attributing any of those thoughts to me in the places where you said, “you would probably” etc
I will try to elaborate but I think it may be too subtle (though I never would have believed so) –
In the table example with the presents. I was describing that scenario as “wrong” (loosely put). Im hearing from your response that you thought i called it wrong because people will feel bad from it and we shouldn’t hurt people’s feelings even if the Torah dictates something.
I was saying that what was wrong was thinking that because we cannot give him a gift, it makes room for us to carry out that mitzvah in ANY WAY we see fit. If we want to do it in the way i described above, well that’s just 100% fine because the Torah said not to give him gifts.
My argument has two important steps –
1. is about taking a halacha and being true to it but carrying it out in ways that are NOT prescribed/condoned by halacha, even lichatchila (the table scenario)
2. when someone speaks out against THAT SPECIFIC aspect of the behavior mentioned in #1, people accuse them of not accepting the halacha and heirarchy, when really they are ONLY objecting to the disgusting display of poor middos and ahavas habrios, not the halacha.
There are those who DO indeed want to make the halachos ‘feel’ better and they are WRONG! But they are two very different thoughts.
yes, but that is somewhat beside the point so I didn’t elaborate. I was just trying to answer to the idea of getting a heter for something to prevent making people feel bad even.
thank you for your last post, for that was my point. im not really sure what made you think the things in the post above that were mine.
I am not wanting a heter to do something not prescribed. I try not to use heterim in general and say so when i ask shailos. i was speaking on the fault in the attitude of the doer, not foulting what the Torah wants ch”v. What the Torah wants is unwavering regardless of how it makes you feel, but there are those who think that gives free reign to impliment it in ANY fashion even if devoid of the compassion that Chazal DO expect from us.
My example about the table is that I would NOT say to find a way to give the non-jew, and i would NOT chose to not give. But I wouldn’t give it out at THAT table in THAT way with THAT delivery and tell people who disaprove that they are disagreeing with Torah. Some posters would consider that delivery just what Chazal ordered, and while you sound like you wouldn’t, it seems you are misinterpreting the distate of the attributing the behavior to Chazal, as a distate with making people feel bad even when Halachically prescribed.
Do you see what i am saying?
if that is what you walked away with then i want to publicly state that that is not at all what i was supporting. I agree with your above post and am pained by the shift that i too have seen.
i walked away with a very different message and that was about misusing the words and dictates of Chazal as a cover for elitism (actually any negative behavior) and racism that IS NOT dictated by them, spurring behaviors that our gedolim and Torah Giants never practiced or condoned.
We are given the instruction not to give gifts to non-Jews for various reasons. if everyone at the table is a yid except one co-worker and i bring gifts and distribute them to all the other workers at the same table and then turn to the other and say, “Sorry, i don’t give things to your kind” is Chazal permitting/encouraging/requesting that WHOLE scenerio? Or did I just chose on my own to carry out the ways of Chazal in that manner. And if someone objects to the way I chose to carry it out, are you saying that they are trying to put feelings over Torah morals?
because MY point to you is that a person should be checked out to make sure that they are worthy instead of just assuming that their “catagory” speaks for itself. That’s why.
what if its a bas talmid chochom who also happens to be a menuvel? or a bas talmid chochom sho also happens to have done time in jail for good reason? do you realize that the nose snubbing catagories are both flawed and never ending? How bout just looking for the right person without assuming where you will find them as opposed to where you won’t.
what about a satmar or litvish family that isnt worrying about what the neighbors think? can they marry into that family?
what about a satmar, litvish, chasidish or really frum family that worries more about what piece of Hahsem is residing inside a person than what they happen to look like, can they marry into that family? Or should we expect from your posts that they don’t have members like that. I refuse to be mekabel.
well well, now who’s saying disparaging things about large portions of klal yisroel?
are most chareidim, chasidim and israeli Jews really that hateful, divisive and k’neged Torah?
interesting view point, I never knew.
gosh newbee, i wanted to agree with you many posts ago but i was sure you wouldve been stopped from your “attacks” long ago.
You have to understand that excluding an excluder is not only not punitive, but they will probably consider it a favor.
You make good points and i pray you should always be around people who value your value of Hashem’s brios.
according to wikipedia it wasn’t named after a place in England after all:
“it was renamed in the 1880s by Edgewater developer John Lewis Cochran after Devon station on the Main Line north of Philadelphia.[2]”
pronounced:
Devon Avenue /d??v?n/
sorry Mr. JB, that would have been dih-vahn!
and I dont know why you are complaining about that when perpendicular to it is a street we call MO-ZART
Mazel Tov midwesterner and …. whoever you are
its a good question. the two families here that are sitting are sitting until Friday morning.
you have to come up with a scenerio in your head of what they intended and keep repeating it until it seems real.
I just tried this on a teacher who told my son that next time he decides to take a day off of school he should consider making it longer.
i’m confused, you WANT to cringe?
i agree. i always thought it was funny that people would use romaine as marror at night and then serve it in a salad the next day for lunch.
not in any way, but thanks once again for your tireless efforts
there was no question my comment was not directed at myself. Im not the one who peruses the web and then gets defensive about it.
grasping at straws…
“Linguistically your point that they are unmoderated and written by nisht frumma is your indication that they are inappropriate”
oh good, so you admit that i never said anything about having read any comments and your diversionary tactics aren’t really getting you anywhere.
I googled the first paragraph, saw the only source that showed up, and knew that disqus on a secular blog would be unmoderated comments by non-frumma yidden.
so what, exactly, was your excuse?
That’s right, that’s where i told you that there are comments underneath, a function of disqus. where’s the part that says I saw inappropriate comments? (as youve claimed twice)
before you go on with your diversions, can you please copy and paste the quote where I say I read or came across something inappropriate?
thanks
i am aware of that. it says blog on the top of the screen. maybe they just mean that if you feel like blogging about it you can click there.
why would i have read any of the comments? my point was that you are the one that brought it over. did you randomly find your browser on that page or were you surfing around? a person would have to find it in order to present it. usually a person looks for it in order to find it. If i was looking around on secular non moderated sites i would not be so quick to advertise it by presenting articles i came across.
the internet is a dangerous place.
its from a disqus – blog. and then there are lots of comments under it that were neither written by frumma yidden nor moderated. if i was browsing in places i shouldnt be, i wouldnt be so quick to let evryone know about it.
i didnt go anywhere. i stayed home and baked a schlissel challah to serve for breakfast.
i said blogoshere
we use coca cola on pesach. somehow, and i am surprised it got past us, a non pesachdik bottle got in to the case. When one of the kids found it on yontiff (they noticed the red cap as opposed to the yellow) they hid it under something somewhere. unfortunately, when making slurpees (we put coke into our ice cream maker for a chol hamoed treat) one of the kids didn’t want to believe we were out of coke and put in a search worthy of bedikas chometz. well they were very excited to find one last bottle! Fortunately, a second child noticed the cap before they made the slurpees, but unfortunately it was after they poured it into the freezing bowl.
personally, if i wanted to be a part of the secular blogosphere i wouldnt be confining myself to YWN. is there a reason you like to shlep things over from other places?
so this topic doesn’t seem to be problematic? yikes.
maybe I should post that the women are making a mezuman on some stupid gebrockts they ate after being mattir neder to be rid of their problem.
Now is it worth jumping on? Hello?
yes, hungry. I too have cases of eggs, potatoes, carrots and onions. but that doesn’t translate to food for people who don’t eat eggs. there is enough to criticize in our children’s behavior, i dont want them to think being hungry is offensive to Gd as well.
Neville – there really was no other way to read it. he said that i was reading into the comment as an attack, and the NEXT sentence was that left wingers can be quick to assume that right wingers are attacking. But i would rather drop it because its a no win. I hate nitpicking conversations and he has already stated he didnt mean it.
As for the rest of your post, we are really talking about two different things. Firstly, and i really wasnt interested in opening this can of worms you say “People on this thread have been calling a minhag silly”. well guess what? Zdad wasn’t the one who did that. it was frumnotyeshivish. zdad was off on some crazy tangent about prices and imposing costs.
and lastly, you are wrong that we all get i am defending zdad the person not the stance. and really, its not about defending him as much as being sick of the way people who claim to be(or possibly are) more learned can treat other people (not just him) who were raised with less information or don’t understand the things you spent decades learning about. even on things that are benign, the assumptions are there and the behavior is really unbecoming of people who seem to be learned (although i have my own theories about people who seem to be learned spending time online).
This behavior turns people away and gives the very false impression that this is how all of US right wingers believe and behave. And it’s wrong. but because it is so ingrained there are a handful of posters who are oblivious to their inappropriate attitude and behavior and are willing to deny it purely on the premise that they themselves don’t see it.
THAT is the problem. And the fact that it misrepresents Torah life and makes a sort of chilul Hashem in a way is why I can’t let it go. But it is a literal blind spot for them so now i will get comments about how Hashem really wants them to make annonymous people feel like dirt because their interpretation of the persons intent is the right one.
If the comments were REALLY and sincerely to the vitriol, then flatbusher would have been the target, not some stupid conversation about pesach food that legitimately isn’t anti religion as it is just silly.
Im really tired. i really didn’t want to bother with any of this because blindspots are blindspots. I have mine too but that’s why i work very hard to listen to the responses i get and when i hear responses that dont match my comments i run them past other people (not like minded people) for perspective.
i don’t care who agrees, i just want us to be more of what Hashem wants of us. And if you find apikorsus, and KNOW itis apikorsus and not lack of exposure, understanding, opportunity etc, then go for it. But if you are in an online forum, then explain yourself. Throw in a comment that says, “I cannot sit back and let Hashem’s Torah/minhagim/leaders be spoken about that way.”
Do you honestly think that when you stab someone for a reason that is only obvious to a smaller group of people that you aren’t causing collateral damage?
P.S. If the response to the vitriol was to defend minhagim, it would probably have gone thru even if it wasn’t cordial.
im not sure thats completely fair. kicking down a sukka? there are people who don’t eat eggs or yogurt or leben or cheese and they are legitimately hungry on Pesach. Once Pesach is over, and they have helped clean up and shlepped boxes, it s fair for them to want something to eat. It isnt a stira on Pesach. no more than eating after a fast negates the reflection done during the fast. Much of the pesach food is very expensive and very limited. unless you want to eat salami and leftover chicken 24/4 there isnt always something to eat for everyone.
In my personal experiences with people who “run out” for food,(tho I am not myself one of them) i dont hear a negative word about pesach or the yontiff or the process. its about food. hunger (in the first world sense) and wanting something to eat.
yeah, well we’ll just leave that comment to speak for itself
i dont know if any of our pizza stores were open. i think one was but that you had to order before pesach. but that may be a rumor. it does not take us more than an hour or so to put everything away and then my kids usually go to the grocery store to buy something to eat. One of my kids called me close to 2 am that he was waiting for the sushi to be brought out. Don’t know if it ever was….
since i dont eat chamets anyway it is all somewhat anti climactic for me… but i am mildly grateful that my kids are no longer “hungry”.
“We rushed to get Dunkin Donuts last night.”
you and about a million other people 🙂
” I am truly sad that Pesach is over. (I know I do not speak for the majority of women…) “
I’m with you 🙁
that phrase was you incidentally,
???
I do not know you or your positions, so I’m not going to be pigeonholing them.
i really appreciate that, and think others should take a lesson from it
and honestly, i am who i am regardless of what i am called online, but here in the CR that term is never meant as a compliment….
thats great goq! thanks!
Youre up at this hour preparing Divrei Torah? did you get promoted to rosh yeshiva or something?
except for this one common thread:
I am passionate about what I believe in, and I will defend it accordingly.
🙂
if you think that getting offended by someone calling you left-wing is being oversensitive than we are pages apart. maybe even chapters.
you are welcome to say you did not attack anyone. you are wrong to say that i did not make sure someone was being jumped on before i supposedly rushed in to tackle (I guess your not getting personal rule is wearing off)
The fact that you dont see something, does not make it not there. and there are quite a few of us “over here” who see it differently than you do. which is fine. the only thing you can speak on is what you meant, and i accept that. your perception of other’s posts is no more or less valid than mine.
how about if im NOT left wing and i just dont like seeing people jump on people?
You take offense rather easily, don’t you? Both for yourself, and for others…
aaah, back to the “mud slinging”, got it.
you havent really answered. was your point that my assumptions that you were jumping come from being left wing?