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“So where is all the money going? Huge student loans? Parental support? Had DWI and huge auto insurance bill? Lawsuit?”
WOW!! have you NO social boundaries?! Wow! I can’t even believe the mods let that thru! do you often take people who are down and out and kick their teeth in? Wow!
DSY – i am somewhat surprised that you got the responses you did. maybe it is my oot naivete but i never heard of a yeshiva saying not to apply without funds. They may tell you to apply and promise funds you dont have and make you sign forms that you agree to raise the funds that you don’t have (happens often), but it is sad if true.
On the other hand, many institutions have closed their doors in the face of boys who are a bit too weak or who need “too much support” because the schools don’t have the funds to support them and they figure that absolves them of trying.
Applications are sent in separately from financial papers. Applications should be accepted and processed and the student should be accepted before the finances are even brought up to an institution. Get paperwork together to verify the boy’s current levels, samples of his work, letters of reference from chavrusas or similar and send in some applications. You will bring up finances when you get your acceptance letter.
I know that minimum tuition here for those who cannot pay is about $3000 a year and our yeshivos don’t charge separately for dorm or food. There are options.
gavra – i am always surprised by how unaware people are of what it means to live without money. I hope you thank Gd every moment for your bliss (no sarcasm, i mean that). Your comment about a second mortgage is the exact modern day equivelent of “let them eat cake”
the less objective message about whether or not a child is deserving of an education he can’t afford is a whole other subject that i dont think we would ever really agree upon or, as you have mentioned in past threads (at least i think it was you), family planning, which i never before had heard a frum yid suggest.
“Poor Poppa obviously living in a matriarchal family.”
what other kind is there?
its probably safe but dont expect your luggage to come with you.
what does not liking the way someone speaks to others have anything to do with liking someone?
anything else before i leave work for the day? my kids are waiting for someone to make them supper.
you and gavra, are you serious?
I tricked you by only showing the part of the sentence that supported the statement? What college classes did you say you attended?
Follow this please:
I claimed you said lawyers get jobs they don’t like.
you said you didn’t say that
I cut and pasted the statement – LEAVING OUT THE NON RELEVANT PARTS SO THEY WOULDN”T BE DISTRACTING!!!!!
the debt had ZERO to do with the conversation/exchange.
and 100k in real estate is pretty common as a salary working under the people who did the investing. No capital needed, just has to be a field of interest.
There is no need for you to be rude to me and showing some more respect wouldn’t hurt.
Hey buddy, you get what you give. If I see people being respectful, I try to say something, if I see people being condescending, biting, hurtful, or mocking I say something. If you would like respect on this forum I would be happy to give it when I see it is warranted.
And like you said (but deleted as you realized how immature it sounded) Back at ya!
when someone tells you something and your response is – ‘oh yeah? you too!’ that kind of speaks for itself.
here are some of the things I imagined you said:
its much better to teach yourself online or go to a code learning bootcamp which is much shorter than college.
Yet another reason not to go to traditional college for those things.
And if you do go to college to become a lawyer without having extremely wealthy and generous parents you have a 100% chance of using up 7 years of your life……..and a good chance you wont get a good job or wont like your job.
zd- you are correct that people need to know the whole story and it does sound like the OP may not have done a lot of research on running, owning, buying or working in a business. The extra stuff you said though, about bitachon and learning is part of many discussions, but not this one. I heard more of an impulsive, unresearched attitude, nothing about Hashem majically providing (which he does, but that’s a different discussion)
newbee your condescending comments and attitude are really annoying. You make all these unrealistic baseless statements about what goes on in college, and law school leading to a job you won’t like and how useless degrees are, and then talk of buying a business or franchise as if all it takes is a ton of money and no education is needed. Someone is talking to you from real live experience, there is no need to be rude.
oomis – exactly!!!
🙂
oh joseph, had to catch my breath after that one. still laughing.
besides many other ironies in your point, do you realize that the chances of falling in an open sidewalk basement entrance in the first place are probably close to nil in frum OOT cities.
“And if you do go to college to become a lawyer without having extremely wealthy and generous parents you have a 100% chance of using up 7 years of your life learning about non-Torah related subjects and graduating with hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt and a good chance you wont get a good job or wont like your job.”
unfortunately your comments are getting more outlandish and less reality based.
Oh don’t be ridiculous. You credited me with two points and I was specifying the one point that wasn’t mine and the reason why. It was an incorrect statement that I corrected because honesty is actually something I cherish. Not sure how you could have taken it as anything else.
Here, let me fix it :
Gavra – I think you accidentally misquoted me. In the following sentence: The “boards” and “pass rates” response was directed at Syag who brought them up – I did indeed bring up the point about the boards but I did not, in fact, bring up the point about the “pass rates” because I would not have considered it relevant. Just clarifying for the sake of retaining the integrity of the points brought forward.
Was that better 🙂
i’m starting to get the picture that mik5 is one of those teens Joseph was able to influence.
and “pass rates” response was directed at Syag who brought them up.
no i didn’t, that was yours. I wouldnt have considered it relevant enough to bring up.
if it actually was a low barrier field it wouldn’t have been called insulting.
newbee- the words “along with” separate the beginning of the response (the part that responds to the above quote) from the second point that is an add on.
I said philosophy 101 and you refuted that with philosophy 101. um…okay. Personally I refrained from philosophy and sciology classes to avoid apikorsus. not sure what you were expecting or why you still think that speaks for the rest of the curriculum.
look, i agree that it is best to avoid college, but at least be straight and honest in your reasons so that people can hear you.
this is what you said and i was responding to it:
most courses have nothing to do with Atheism or communism.”
Ummm…. thats LITERALLY what we learned about when I was in college.
And i just don’t see that happening unless you took religious philosophy 101.
if you want to argue that it was useless, that is a separate point.
Syag specifically mentioned the boards….
that was one component to respond to the insult that it was a low barrier field.
…which seem to only be a formality (at least for OT)
a formality? wow. i guess letting you know you are not only uninformed but insulting a whole group of people isn’t enough to deter you from continuing that way.
“This shows great ignorance about college, most courses have nothing to do with Atheism or communism.”
Ummm…. thats LITERALLY what we learned about when I was in college.
well i find that really odd.Somewhat hard to believe actually. maybe the problem was more about your ability to chose classes carefully. i think your experience taking classes on atheism cannot realistically be stretched into that being what “colleges” are about.
now that i think about it your way, judging by how many people sit in BMG, i would have to say learning gemara all day is a no brainer as well
gaw – wow, pretty insulting comment. Just because it is murderous to get into the program and they make you work day and night to be sure you are prepared you can feel free to downgrade something you know nothing about. I wonder if that means I have to weigh out everything else you weigh in on.
zdad – “There just isnt enough work for the amount of applicants who want to get in”…you forgot to say “in NY”. there are actually other cities on the globe that don’t have that problem.
Those jobs with lower barriers to entry (… OT/PT/Speech
I’m guessing you never took those boards…
Most people going to Brooklyn College learning about why its great to be an atheist and the communist manifesto are not next in line to inherit a Rabbinic Dynasty.
there are lots of good reason’s why someone shouldn’t go to college or should be very careful where they go. but when you just make up random statements that aren’t reality based, it takes away the validity of the rest of your point.
as an aside – when my daughter chose a field that required her to go to college (with daas torah, someone very connected to the field who knows all sides) her mentor’s from seminary said that while in college she should make sure to attend one or two shiurim a week WITHOUT FAIL! You either attend a small shiur where you are seen and connected, or make a weekly appointment with a mentor/michaneches. Now, as she finishes, her menaheles (the one who gives the shiur) told me that her ability to hold to the schedule no matter what was going on was amazing and unusual. And my daughter said that if you can’t follow thru, you need to think very carefully about secular college.
But that wasn’t because of atheism or anything else, it was the influences of non-jews, the language, the stories they share etc. and this was with her being in an all girls program (by chance) and spending 3 days a week in hospitals, not classes.
College isn’t always the wrong choice, but don’t take it for granted that your strong ties can withstand a very stressful college career.
You can say that about any career. “If being a lawyer is such a good job, it will become saturated.” “If being a psychologist is such a good job, it will become saturated.” “If being a website developer is such a good job, it will become saturated.”
This is only true for the women’s fields, not the men’s and here’s why –
men’s talents are very limited so they can only go into fields they are good at. Women, on the other hand, can do anything, so if a field proves to be good for frum people, they grab it. that’s why the womens fields are all saturated (OT, Speech, nursing, ABA etc)
**snicker**
Are you disagreeing what the Halacha is based on your halachic expertise, ….. or based on your gut feelings what the Halacha on tochacha is or should be?
the more i hear this comment (in it’s many forms) the blurrier the lines between you and DY become.
****sidebar****
CT – how’s the missus?
Joseph – i don’t think you are correct that halacha allows you to actively turn off many people just to turn on one. I also don’t believe that the cold harsh nature of your posts has ever turned anyone on to anything. If you are talking about face to face talks, that isn’t even apples and oranges to this. and if you are talking about a different online forum, i can confidently tell you you are wrong.
that was not the point i was focusing on, that was the point that originated the discussion.
and once again, thank you for the reminders on a regular basis to allow others to have opinions. it is very helpful to hear it so often.
ca – that comment really gives me goosebumps. i have NO doubt you were joking, but that comment felt like an affirmation that the holocaust was a hashgocha-less cause and affect happening of nature if I ever heard one. **shudder**
this is all besides the point. the point was that Joseph can’t think that harsh, blunt comments that are hardly going to be well received by many many people are appropriate tochacha. it’s plain wrong. according to halacha there has to be a chance they will accept it and you have to know they will not be turned off by it. there is no question in anyones mind (due to past experience) that those words on a public forum were not going to be received well. that means it does NOT conform with the halachik standards for being appropriate.
we argue about somantics and he goes off to the corner licking his paws.
true, but i wasn’t commenting on whether or not the children will be okay or if a part time working mother can think of herself as raising her kids even when the baby sitter is putting in as many daytime hours. My comment was that whether or not these children need to be raised by their parents is rarely even a part of the discussion.
this is an insertion cuz i can’t not add it. then you can continue your discussion –
i truly believe everyone who can learn forever, should. I would be thrilled if my kids all chose to be sincere, honest, legit full time learners. Anyone who can’t learn, I wish they could learn part time, in big slots. This is what I want- seperate from what is financially possible.
Having said that and made clear where I stand – the insertion here is that there are so many fights about women being breadwinners or sole supporters etc. They have turned themselves into career people instead of just “working to support the family”. The big problem that there seems to be no answer to is WHO IS RAISING THE KIDS?????
I don’t think *any* child ever should be raised by anyone other than their parents – and every time a child goes to the babysitter, it should be because that was decided to be best for THAT situation. kind of like a heter or a b’dieved. These girls are being conditioned (in the more yeshivish and modern both) to expect their children to be raised by babysitters while they choose a work schedule that fits their needs.
We argue about what the motives for working are and who is pushing it, but all these kids are being left behind.
if you need a personal explanation in order to retract calling someone a sonei yisroel, and none of my years of posting proves that already, then the problem is not with me.
ive been an onen four times, and while i do remember eating without brachos, i dont remember anything about watching movies.
flatbusher – youre joking, right? you think a bucher in chassidish levush decided the movie was okay?
I may not agree with Joseph’s form of tochacha (or most other opinions of his), or if tochacha would even have been appropriate here, but do you really think that there’s nothing wrong with watching movies in the first place?
I grew up watching movies and i can tell you there is not a movie out there that is kosher. there is kol isha, nivel peh, lack of tznius in concepts, skin and behavior and the story lines are primarily love stories. except for the one’s that are heavier on the violence. even when i watched movies, i wasn’t thinking they were “okay”, I was just thinking that i was allowed to see them. being raised with permission to do things does not make those things appropriate for you, it just means your mom won’t mind that you went.
i have friends who drink hot coffee in ceramic cups in traif retaurants. they have decided that that is something they will do. their friends don’t care, their parents don’t care. does that mean that my knowing it is asur is my narrow minded opinion?
zd, i meant regarding your post, your take on the situation and thinking that a pg movie is safe enough to actually drag that into this discussion. when someone indulges in things that they shouldn’t be, it is appropriate to be pained.
i would bet a hundred bucks that if LF didn’t give the whole detail of what he was doing at least two of you would have jumped in with, “oh yea, and what were you watching”. knee jerk response to someone else caring about a yid. if he said something wrong to the kid you could go to town on how wrong or right it was, but this post seemed to be more about how he felt about it.
zd – as someone who occasionally agrees with you, i have to say that i disagree with you more than completely.
—>speechless<—
(or biting my tongue)
joseph – let me give you a little piece of friendly advice here in the privacy of the internet —
your style of tochacha qualifies as the exception. not prone to building, and pretty known to damage. You should probably cross it off your list. That would be Hashem’s rule.
i agree that musser is not always welcome and that it can do damage when someone is looking for a reason to run. IF i was going to say something to that boy, it might have been to ask him a question or two, or three…maybe four in the fashion of the Chofetz Chaim who tried to occupy the time of those who might be using it for bad speech otherwise. He would totally catch on to what you were doing, and possibly appreciate the subtle approach, and choose on his own to reciprocate or not. But you will have done your hishtadlus and not stood al dam re’echa, so to speak.
flatbusher – i may agree with you except for the bit about live and let live. that comment applies when you tell me you like mushrooms on your pizza and i prefer garlic. when a bachur, or any yid for that matter, is sitting in front of a tv, computer, ipad, phone or otherwise filling his eyes with images that burn holes right thru his neshama and will possibly haunt him well into his marriage even if he stops cold turkey today – the response is not “let live because it doesn’t personally affect you”, the response is to cry silently for him and to say a kapital tehillim and beg Hashem to guide him to better places.
sam2 – i didn’t think i was advocating for dishonesty. i agree that you assume a most favorable scenerio, but really it is probably best to just keep your mouth shut with a big, “I really don’t know enough to think anything” hanging over your head. I dont mean you have to pretend you werent robbed, or that the soldier didn’t pull the trigger, but there are so many missing pieces and unknowns (here and elsewhere) that it upsets me to hear conclusions drawn as if they were there when it happened.
unless you were referring to something else?
jerusalem reader – thank you for that “link”. arutz sheva has the images blurred enough to be watchable and you clearly hear the medics yelling “don’t touch him” several times. you also hear him say “hu chai”- he is alive. And i didn’t see anyone tie their shoe but you do see everyone around busy with helping the wounded soldier get into the ambulance. worth listening to , not just to clarify what REALLY happened, but to witness the lengths that people go to to destroy the morale and support of the soldiers facing death daily.