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Toras avigdor
“There have been these types of hat habayis terrorist incidents for years”source please.
Can you provide examples of shootings on har habayis for years?
thanks2scents
“I believe that the doctors, not the patients decide on what is an emergent procedure”
yes that is correct. shouldnt it be that way?
“once one is in the system they have to wait their turn.”
YEs if not emergent there is a delay. (again though les of a delay than those in the US without insurance) However this is to save costs.
For example Canada has less MRI machines than the the US (in 2005 5 per million people in Canada compard to 20 in the US. ) Obviously this helps keep costs down since not as many machines need to be maintained.
the flip side is fro (non-emergent ) MRI’s there is a delay.
If avoiding delay is so important then we can spend more and still have a single payer sytem the two arent mutually exclusive. Canada spends half of what we do and has better outcomes.
We can have a single payer system, spend more than Canada does to avoid dreaded delays for non-essential tests and likely still insure everybody at less the cost than we have today.“I was involved and familiar with a few cases of which the patients were flown to the US from the UK for more advanced life saving treatments.”
Likewise, I was alos involved with the revers cases. See NYT article “The Growing Popularity of Having Surgery Overseas” 8/6/13“Another lie! Why do you continue to lie?”
This one is easy to prove
You said “you’d have nothing to lose by putting the money with a third party.”
I replied “Id have nothing to gain either”
To which you said “Of course you’d have what to gain – you could tell e/o that I’m the liar here, not you!”SO as I said, aside from it being aparent from your posts that you lie.
It isnt worth sraising 2 million dollars just to prove someone else a liar. it just isnt important to me, i dont consider that a “gain” although you do, since you said it is what I would gain.
Or as I had put it “it troubles me to think that in your mind being able to tell people someone else is a liar is worth money at all let alone 2 million dollars”
🙂(Im not sure wh y the link formatted funny it has nothing to do with lakewwod it was to this post on that thread
where yo usaid to me “You admitted that you can be wrong”)“you could tell e/o that I’m the liar here”
Lol, they have access to all your posts much like I do.
and besides. to you it is really worth that much money to tell people someone else is a liar? Oy. To tll you the truth I really dont care that much. I enjoy our little back and forth, but it troubles me to think that in your mind being able to tell people someone else is a liar is worht money at all let alone 2 million dollars.
“I would have given it for free, ”
that is demonstrablly false, you had ample opportunity to do so. (See I just proved that you lie for free !)
“I would have given it for free, but your attitude till this day is unacceptable to me – eg. -“when wrong Ive admitted.””
that shouldnt be unacceptable. I get that you like Trump, but htis is actualy a terrible mida. It is important to admit when you are wrong, it shouldnt be unacceptable that Id o that.
See here where you agree that Ive admitted I can be wrong.
“I’m sure you could get at least 2 grand for it.”
what If I dont have a house?(Im going to ignore your swipe at lakewood)
2scents
“, nor is the individual entitled to decide which course of treatment they should take. all is decided by the government (unless one is willing to pay cash).”This isnt true. Ive spoken to practitioners in other countries. (although generally there is less PATIENT autonomy, and physicians make more decisions than in the US, but this isnt what you said,. and has nothing to do with goverment run healthcare as it was the same way in the US until 10-20 years ago)
As far as weight times, that was discussed already though Id offer two cavetas
1) that is for non emergent procedures
2) you said “while over here the patient usually is able to get …” that is IF he has insurance of course for those without insurance the weight itme is much longer than anybodies in Canada’s ever was…Kollelman
“As “informed consumers” we should demand this. I wish there was a list of standards (website?) as OP suggests”At first I agreed, though now Im not so sure.
There are amny machlokisism, and I think publicizing pesakim for people who dont know the detals of the issues involved can be confusing.If you go throuh a sugya or if you have a specific question then I’m fairly certain the hashgacha would be upfront with you. If you dont know then a list of their kulas/chumras might be little more than “hock”
The reason Im not so sure, is that even the learned consumer “informed consumer” as you put it, might not know that say he assumes as a given that a pilot light doesnt satisfy bishul yisroel he assumes all agree and doesnt realize that the hashgacha decided differently.
Though maybe thats his mistake for assuming.The point is, if you have a question the information is available by asking (if it isnt I agree it should be) IF you methadone a question, Im not sure the hashgacha has to volunteer all that information..
Again though if you like hock, put together a website listing all the hashgachas positions on various issues I will keep an eye out
Health
“When did you learn to be so dishonest?!?”
You think charging 2 million dollars for a fake SCOTUS case is honest?“you’d have nothing to lose by ”
Id have nothing to gain either. I love real information, alternative sCOTUS cases, not as much. and besides sadly I dont have 2 million dollars
Then you say “I know you wouldn’t” So if you know I wouldnt , why would you offer? Thats called ganeivas daas and isnt very honest either 🙁2.
” I urge you to take a remedial reading course.”
Pot meet kettle, in the past week alone so far you have misread a letter printed in the voice of lakewood, a k innumerbale posters comments, and a article on hasagas gevul thatYOU cited.“I pointed out that you distorted the SA by truncating the halacha”
Yet another example of your poor reading
Here is how I cited the halacha “חַיָּבִים בֵּית דִּין לְהַעֲמִיד מְמֻנִּים עַל הַשְּׁעָרִים שֶׁלֹּא יַרְוִיחַ כָּל אֶחָד מַה שֶּׁיִּרְצֶה, שֶׁאֵין לוֹ לָאָדָם לְהַרְוִיחַ בַּדְּבָרִים שֶׁיֵּשׁ בָּהֶם חַיֵּי נֶפֶשׁ Choshen mishpat 231:20”
you then claimed I truncated it “You truncated the halacha in the SA. It says “necessary for life”” which of course I wrote. (“שֶׁיֵּשׁ בָּהֶם חַיֵּי נֶפֶשׁ”)
At any rate Water is necessary for life, so if you maintain that IT doesnt apply to water you are arguing on the shulchan aruch.“I pointed out that today everything has substitutes ”
Yes you pointed this out but
a. IT simply isnt true. (as I told you)
and more importantly
b. It still doesnt dispute my main point that the Torah opposes pure free market capitalism, as it puts limits on profiteering on (at the minimum) things that are necessary for life .” I also pointed out that free competition would keep prices down. ”
Yes you did, though it isnt relevent to our discussion,. We arent discussing which system is better. Rathter what the Torah supports and opposes3. “Be pious with your own money, not with others’”
Mazel tov.
the source you cite says that people should avoid competing with their neighbor even if not assur. One of the fundementals of capitalism is that competition benefits society.4.
There isnt, because the US isnt a pure free market system whether (though not nearly to the extent the toah does) see RY’s comment above.
Though I cant help but notice that you havent actually answered my question.
Here it is again
“Also earlier I mentioned the Author’s introduction “These cases often arouse much controversy, especially since the Halachah is sometimes at odds with American society’s tendency to favor unrestricted competition.”Do you disagree with his assessment?”
“Your attempt to be right, no matter what, is mind-boggling!”
Lol, Not an attempt, when Im right Im right. when wrong Ive admitted. Im not the one who made up a supreme court case that I refuse to name, nor the one who said it would be copyright infiringment to cite the source for a statement Ive made, nor am I the one who said “Treatment is more of an indication than survival rate when it comes to better healthcare” (Im stil not sure what that means, treatment of what? and how do you detemrine how good a treatment is if ot survival?
“My posts are applicable to the topic.”
Kind of, and you dodge questions“It could be you just post -whatever?!?”
Im not sure which post you refer to. Id be happy to explain its relevenceThe OP was 3 pages ago
There have been many side topics.you said “As an aside you said:””The US has the best medical care,”
I asked “In what way?”
(note I didnt dispute the notion that the US has the best health care, I was just asking what that means
this was introduced as an aside, I was hoping to avoid one of our glorious nonsensical back and forths)“You didn’t read my post from the page before!”
I did but it was silly before and still is.
Though this is sillier “Treatment is more of an indication than survival rate when it comes to better healthcare!”
Why? says who?If I told you Hospital 1 has better treatment than hospital 2. The patients at hospital 2 live longer bu the treatments at hospital 1 are “better” You would rightly dismiss that assessment as nonsensical. and
you say that other countries live longer because “nutrition and excercse” even if so, that is part of “healthcare” too.
2. Just so we are clear, Are you arguing on the shulchan aruch?
3. Lol! So even among the few who hold that there is never an issur hasagus gevul (Im not familiar with all the sources most still hold there is) STILL views it as a “sign of piety” to avoid competition. I.e. an ideal that pious people should strive towards is to not compete?
Really thats your argument?Also earlier I mentioned the Author’s introduction “These cases often arouse much controversy, especially since the Halachah is sometimes at odds with American society’s tendency to favor unrestricted competition.”
Do you disagree with his assessment?
“What should a parent say when his child wants a pet like a dog or a goldfish?”
“They use it instead of a child. Instead of having any children,”
Got it! The child should have children.
thanks for sharing2. “in a free market for water competition would do the job.”
Im not sure what you mean by “would do the job” that isnt my question
My question is if I am halachicly allowed to make as much profit as I can?“The article also brings Rav Soloveichik, the Beit Efraim (C.M. 26) and the Tel Aviv Beit Din (Piskei Din Rabbaniyim 4:9-32) as disagreeing.”
It doesnt. Again, you seem to read sources you cite (thsi is at least the 4th time you have done htis)
From the Article “The Rav insisted that in America there are no restrictions on competition,” We arent talking about in America, we arent talking about today. We are talkign according to the Torah. (though at least you seem to acknowledge that even to day the vast majority of poskim disagree with you)
Of course a Dayan must understand intracacies of buisness Im not sure how that is relevant.Kolelman
” wish there was a list of standards (website?) as OP suggests. ”
start one!Health
Needless to say I dont know the specifics of your relatives case.(nor am I asking)
from the article you cite “observation only can be an alternative in an asymptomatic patient with localized disease”. On the other hand sometimes patients re too sick to tolerate chemo
At any rate “treatment” isnt necessarily a sign of better healthcare. Survival rates in US are pretty similar to Europe (~70% at 5 years).I hope your relative is doing well.
“The science community has already proved a connection between viruses & cancer.”
Should read SOME cancers.
WTP correctl described Cancer. SOME of these distruptions of cell division are triggered by viruses.
As Health pointed out EBV, (burkits lymphoma) HPV (cervical cancer Vaccine available!), HBV/HCV (HCC) among many others. This doesnt mean Cancer is a virus of course. Just that some cases of certain cancers are known to be triggered by viruses.
OF ocurse there are hundreds of other triggers identified cigarette somoke being one of the more well known ones.
To the best of my knowledge no fungus has been identified as causing any form of cancer, though it is certainly possible.
In no way is cancer a fungus (nor a virus)“I’m glad he thinks cancer is so easy to treat. ”
He doesnt. He just knows people are desperate and will often do anything at the hopes for a cure. He is more than happy to take their money. Sadly he isnt alone. Dr. Burzynski comes to mind. Similiry many Rabbonim have criticized organazations that sell “rare oppurtunities” for yeshuos preying on the same fear.
Kollelman
“there is no free market.”
nor can there be. People dont decide to have heart attacks. and when they do happen they cant go bargain hunting.“An individual almost never has the ability to negotiate”
Its far worse than that. Say a hospital wants $100 for an Xray. The insurance with their bargaining power says ok we will give you $70 take it or lose our patients. The hospital then raises the bill to $150 The insurance company says ok we will give you $100 (which is what the hospital wanted.) Hospital is happy they get what they want , insurance company is happy since they are gettign a bargain
The ones who realy lose are individuals without insurance who are now stuck with a bill for $150 that is more than the hospital even wants.Insurance for childbirth doesnt realy make sense. Try gettign car insurance and telling the insurance company yo plan on having a car accident r”l every year or few years.
Similarly for preexisting conditions, some of which people are born with. trying buying homeowner’s insurance once a home is on fire1. Im sorry I dont see how that follows, it seems that time, and patents expiring lowered the price.
Again though Im not disputing that free enterprise (generally) lowers prices.2. “You cannot.”
correct according to the torah I cannot charge wahtever I want
So Although it is my water I am limited by halacha as to how much profit I can Im glad we agree on this oneRegarding the ribbis case, Im not sure what your answer was. The correct answer is NO you cannot LEND me money with the plan of charging interest. (you cna invest in my pizza store but that wasnt my question)
Regarding hasagas gevul, I’ mot sure why you think it is cut and dry. The article you cite says this “R’ Moshe rules in accordance with the Chatam Sofer that one may not open a business if it will destroy someone else’s livelihood. …, he claims, taking away one’s ability to afford as much as the average person in his socioeconomic class constitutes destroying his livelihood.”
Yet another example of the Torah opposing pure free markets.did you even read the article you sent?
The introduction says EXACTLY what I have been saying “the Halachah is sometimes at odds with American society’s tendency to favor unrestricted competition. ”
Did you bring the article to support my position?
Ok so you agree on onaas maamon and hasagas gevul.
Im so glad we settled this. So the torah opposes pure free market capitalism.Kollelman
You contradict yourself therby identifying a big part of the problem
You say “allow the free market to work. ” yet you correctly identify “A doctor’s visit with a blood test should not cost $500+. The prices are all fake,…. Ask a hospital “how much is this procedure?”, and they will not know.”
How can a free market work if you arent told the price ahead of time?(though this line “it’s mostly due to lack of competition” is nonsense. Google how many hospitals are in NYC.
The reality is healthcare doesnt follow ordinary economic prinicples. IF a car is broken down you can shop around for the best mechnic, if a heart is “broken down” you can exactly ask the ambulance how much they will charge or direct the ambulance to the cheaper hospital.Avi
1. I dont want to get caught up on your calculator example, not on the most efficient way to keep prices down, since that isnt what we are discussing.
Yet I still dont get your example, NYC 45 years ago opposed free enterprise?“Yes, the Halacha recognizes reality.”
Simple question:
IF I have the only water in town, according to halacha can I charge whatever I want (read: that the free market would allow) for it? YES or NO
This is the point we are discussing.If I want to open a pizza store can you LEND (not invest) me capital and then I will return the loan plus interest? YES or NO (please dont mention investing in my pizza store (ie heter iska), while certainly related that isnt my question I specifically want a loan like I can get from my bank on the corner, I heard someone mention “The issur of ribbit is also mostly as inapplicable today”)
IF I have the only pizza store in town, according to halacha can you open a competing pizza store across the street that targets the same customers? YES or NO
2. “Pills cost much more in the US because of crony capitalism.”
Ah, so some government regulation is necessary. Ok agreed!
(though again, this is not really what we were discussing just a side issue, that I am glad we agree on)“At this point he‘ll sign anything that will replace Obamacare.”
Got it! So you were using the term “thought process” veeeeeeeeeeery loosely, fair enough.
“The US has the best medical care,…In treatment.”
My sincerest apologies. for some reason I thought you had a real reason I’m not sure what I was thinking.
I know, I know for 75 zillion dollars you will elaborate what “treatment” you are referring to.
Its fine, Moichel toives.“He’s right in the way socialist medicine works.”
Except that wasnt my question.
Here it is again:You indicated that Trump has a “thought process” on health care (exact quote: “You obviously don’t understand Trump’s thought process.”) My question is what is his view? Does he view the house’s AHCA (now dead) or does he view it as mean? Or both? (ie thinks it s”fantastic” although “mean”
does he believe a universal health care system with a single payer is a good form of health care like he has stated repeatedly over the years (and as recently as MAy 17′) ?
Thanks
As an aside you said:””The US has the best medical care,”
In what way?
Avi
BTW your impressive knwoledge of “Jewish and general history and economics,” aside which system works better is not at all relevent to what the Torah supports and opposes.
Also I dont understand your calculator example. ddi your father the calcuator in a non-free enterprise society, or one that followed the Torah and now your are comparing it ot a cheaper price in a pure-free market scoiety? otherwise what does it have to do with anything?On the other hand I’l give you an example that while not relevant to our discussion (of hwo the Torah opposes pure free market capitalism), is relevant to the original discussion about health care
Augmentin is an antibiotic. one pill in the US costs 19 cents. In Belgium the very same pill costs about half a cent (you read that correctly)
Care to guess why?Of course I truncated he shulchan aruch. IT is a long book
(though i did mention seyesh bahem chayei nefesh)the discussion isnt about today vs yesterday.
The discussion is whether the Torah supports Free market capitalism.
Of severla examples I gave one of them is athe above mentioned halacha that beis din makes sure people dont overcharge (this is but one specific din in onaas maamon the very existence of which is diametricly opposed to free market capitalism).
So even if you make the bizzare argument that today everything has substitutes (I’ll tell that to the next meshulach who says he cant put bread on his table, “so what just find a substitute” maybe cake?)
my point STILL stands, as in a world with no substitutes or an item that is vital say I control all the water in town,I am limited how much profit I can make.
Halachicly this limit isnt determined by the free market but by halacha/the torah yes or no?“Free enterprise results in lower prices.”
could be. Sadly the Torah doesnt feel that way.“The issur of ribbit is also mostly as inapplicable today as carrying on Shabbat. ”
I’m sorry bt that sounds like kefira. There is an issur deoraysa to lend with ribis and to carry on Shabbos in a reshus harabim. IT is important to me that you know that.
If you want to thin out your shulchan aruch and get rid of these halachos so you have less to learn, ok but they apply 100% completely and always will. This is one of the ikarei emuna.Again, yes in modern societies it isnt practical to not lend with interest, . So the Rishonim (not Hile as mentionedl) came up with heter iska where it is viewed as an investment and not a loan.
however lending with ribbis is 100% assur and always will be. It is important to me that you understand that.
In other words the Torah put a limit on how I can profit from my own money,
This too is in diametric opposition to capitalism.“You obviously don’t understand Trump’s thought process”
Lol!
Please help me understand Trump’s thought process. He has described the House’s plan as both a “great plan” that would provide “fantastic healthcare” and “mean”
(or is it both)He has repeatedly stated he believes in universl healthcare
for example in his book in 2002 “We must have universal health care. Just imagine the improved quality of life for our society as a whole,” he wrote, adding: “The Canadian-style, single-payer system in which all payments for medical care are made to a single agency (as opposed to the large number of HMOs and insurance companies with their diverse rules, claim forms and deductibles) … helps Canadians live longer and healthier than Americans.””He has praised Australia’s healthcare as recently as May of this year
Is this part of his thought process as well?thanks
Avi
Interesting do you have a source for that?
Though Im curious. Which halcahos only applied then?
Issur to lend with ribis (without a heter iska which isnt lending)?
Issur hasagas gevul?
Issur of onaas maamon?
The inability ot sell land long term?
KAshrus?
Tefilin?what other halachos only apply in small closed communities?
DY
Thanks for sharing The Steipler’s letter was interesting
And as mentioned to the OP
LEarning 2 hours a day is very hard though not impossible
Davening with a minyan 3 times a day is impossible.“Is it relevant in putting yourself in that position l’chatchilah?”
The poskim (plural) Ive spoken to said no .
Though I guess it could depend on what lechatchila means is that before medical school (not knowing where he will end up practicing) or when one accepts a position in a hospital that caters t oa diverse group?Joseph
“That answers for ER doctors, but not all other doctors.”As said over and over and over. Doctors are different they have different roles and are at different levels of training, have different responsibilities etc etc.
” And non-yehudim is more relevant for doctors on Shabbos than Hatzalah since Hatzalah is mostly responding to Yidden, even granting there are exceptions, where doctors are mostly, by far, not. So it is a different shailos on this issue for doctors than Hatzalah.”
I have never hear or seen this difference spelled out practically. Yes in mindset and in the background there may be a difference. but when push comes to shove, are you aware of any source written or otherwise that says there is a difference IN PRACTICE?
( I believe there is a mishaneh halachos that says on a desert Island there would be a practical nafka mina though even there not all agree, and I dont think any hospital in NY counts as a desert island)
“Furthermore, many specialities mostly deal with NON-life threatening issues, including on Shabbos.”
depends on the specialty
” And even specialities that have pekuach nefesh situations on Shabbos, the Jewish doctor will often go/drive to work on Shabbos and have many Saturdays at work where he gets no pikuach nefesh patients. ”
Depends on the specialty
Again though and this was my main point to the false “facts” first presented by the poster who kept making stuff up. many frum Dcotors dont work at all on Shabbos.
“So if someone asked you for advice about medical school, in all fairness, you would need to advise that after finishing school, they may not be able to have a career unless they work on Shabbos.”
Yes.
however it is a question of priorities.
For example given the current duty hours where everybody gets one day off in 7 it isnt that hard to work with a program that otherwise might have trouble filling its spots t ogaurantee that his day off would be Saturday even if they never formally had a “shomer shabbos spot”Of course if a person doesnt match one year, he can take a year to do research and try again the following year as a more competiive applicant.
The Bottom line is for a non-competiive specialty it isnt that hard t o arrange for Shabbos. Though yes, I caution their is no gaurantee just like anything in life, (there is no gaurantee of getting a residency at all) and like in any career a hefty dose of syata d’shmaya is needed.
I never met anyone who wanted a Shomer Shabbos spot and couldnt get one. The people I know who ddidnt do shomer shabbos either:
a. were in a competitive specialty where “shomer shabbos” spots dont exist
b. Decided for whatever reason they didnt want a shabbos spot
c. Had Shomer shabbos spots available but opted for a non-shomer shabbos spot at a more prestigous institution.Joseph
“I don’t see a parallel between Hatzalah and doctors, at all.”
Look harder.
For example:
An Emergency room is specifically designed for pekuach nefesh situations. It is true that some non-emergency use of Emergency rooms are made, incorrectly. But Emergency rooms iarent advertising itself for non-emergencies. Those outside-its-scope uses take their use of Emergency rooms on their own head/achrayis. Obviously Emergency rooms can’t make a determination everytime a patient comes in whether it is an appropriate use of an Emrgency room, since they risk making a wrong call if they deny service and it turns out it really was a true emergency.(I removed the references to aino yejhudinm since according to most poskim, (though not all) that isnt relevant practically)
“Many Saturdays they might not even have any pikuach nefesh situation that whole day at their facility”
It depends both on the facility and specialty
I would estimate that, Emergency medicine, intensivists, interventional cardiologists, nephrologists, vasc surgeons, cardio thoracic surgeons, and anesthesiologists save lives every day (Im sure there are others IVe left off).
Many other specialties save lives most days. (obviously depends on thee institution)Dont generalize before labeling people as mechalelel Shabbos
This applies both those who do go to “work” on Shabbos and those who dont.DY
” When someone enters medical school, is he guaranteed that he can, if he wishes to, avoid Shabbos shifts in internship and residency?”
Guarantee is strong. There is no such guarantee. A person can decide to only accept “Shomer shabbos” positions and odds are he’ll get one in a field where these exist. But there is no gaurantee
PBA
“I’m not too big of a baal gaava to say I don’t know”
Im glad to here that! Kudos youve grown as earlier you repeated wrong assertions about a filed you knowlittle about in spite of being corrected.
PBA
“Can you repost a tldr version? Is hard to read the 5 words of tape buried in the insults.”ID be happy too:
IF you dont know what youare talking about there is no need to say anything. Not all Doctors have the same schedule and not all work on Shabbos (mutar or not)
(I have told you this no fewer than 5 times, for whatever reason though you still repeat your same falsehoods and portray yourself as some bar hachi)
Joseph
Im not sure if your question was addressed to me, but Id be happy to answer.
“To narrow the issue down, if I understand it correctly, the chillul Shabbos-doctor problem is mostly limited to their training in residency for about three years. Correct?”
not at all.Okay, partly.
The bottom line is there is a lot ov variability and the issues each face are different as well depending both on level of training and speciality.
With residency the problem is being the lowest on the totem pole. IT is the residents role todo much of the “scut work” as well as all the minutae. This is the biggest issue with Shabbos, since most if not all of these acts (paperwork, ordering non-essential medications like tylenol) are not pikuach nefesh. *
On the other hand Residency is also the easiest since there are several spots where a resident never has to go in on shabbos or Yom Tov ( there are other programs which while not guaranteeing a “Shomer shabbos spot” allow switching so the outcome is the same). I (and most of my frum collegues) had such a position I never carried a pager, phonelet alone went in on Shabbos or Yom Tov throughout residency.“Once they get their medical license and become a full fledged doctor, frum doctors can generally control their schedule. If they hang their own shingle out and open their own practice, they surely can set their own hours and days”
Yes though depends on specialty but generally coverage can be arranged on weekends (or at least half a weekend with the frum partner taking Sunday and the other one Shabbos)“. If they’re a specialist in a hospital, specialists can choose not to work weekends. (Other non-Jewish specialist can be the Saturday specialist.)”
Not always. When working for a hospital you are partly on the hospital’s schedule and most hospitals want specialists available 24/7. So it can be harder in this setting.
” An Emergency Room doctor will probably have problems taking off on Shabbos.”
not neccesarily, since Emergency Rooms are “shift work” and it is not that hard to arrange to avoid shifts Friday night/ shabbos day. In some ways this is easier than the aforementioned specialist who is expected to be available 24/7.
On the other hand, once out of residency the Specialist, internist, ED doc can generally delegate to Residents or PA’s have them do paperwork, ordering tylenol etc and only perform acts that actually save lives then write notes after shabbos l.
So while in some ways avoiding work might be harder post-residency avoiding melacha is easier.AVi
1. “Are there no such schools?”
No there arent“2. The very strong implication was that the suicide was because of this.”
Reread the letter. IT was “after 5 years of tremendous pain”“3. She wrote that she changed some of the facts.”
Yes because they dont want her identified. If the real story is she was expelled becasue she showed up with a gun on the first day, I dont think that can be considered “changing the facts”
Its not like the real story is a Zoo didnt accept a new pet rat because it had rabies.Just replace “zoo” with “school”, “Rat” with “a girl”and “because it has Rabies ” with “because they were stuck up reshaim” and you uhave the same story.
That isnt what “some of the specifics were eliminated or altered means”4. Obviously the writer thinks that an acceptance was coming to her.
Please please please please reread the letter! I dont think we are talking about the same letter. The letter I read said she was accepted! The principal
PBA
“Here’s the bottom line.”
General rule: when you dont know what you are talkign about you dont get to decide what the “bottom line” isThe real bottom line is that you are a troll and have a sick pleasure in getting people riled up and aggravated .
“It is totally accepted that doctors do residencies and shifts that require them to treat shabbos like a regular day, ”
again that is true for some.
“even though there is zero pikuach nefesh need for them to do that.”
Im not sure why you say that.
“And while I’m sure they’re correct that it’s muttar min hadin, it is definitely wrong.”
If it is muttar it isnt wrong.…Would it be assur for a biglaw lawyer’s associate to come to their house, and show them some changes in a document, and then go execute based on his advice? I don’t know–”
If you dont know ask. It wouldnot be muttar see DY’s post” But every other profession drew a hard line around shabbos, and didn’t go looking for heterim.”
Becasue they dont deal with saving lives.“And then there are the people who agree that there is something wrong with it, but won’t discuss it. ”
who are those people?
“They won’t raise the topic themselves, and will tell anyone who raises it that they are being a hyperbola or a hypotenuse so that they can shut down the discussion”
You are being hyperbolic and obtuse. you are lying and misrepresenting facts. While I get that you think you are witty and hilarious, that doesn’t make you right.What drives those people? ”
for me just the truth.“Aside: All you arguing with the gemara are basically kofrim. ”
Note I didn’t argue on the gemara, in fact quite the opposite I offered to learn bechavrusa with you. Though sadly I have to rescind the offer, given your love of am haaratzus and lyingNC
Welcome to the party
“Popa isn’t saying doctors aren’t good people….”
Nobody claimed he was.” I think the point he’s making is that it’s a lot more intrusive in frum life than other professions. ”
Thats not just his point that is what the thread si about.“That isnt jut his point that is what the You would have a home in which Dad goes to work every Shabbos; ”
Its not every Shabbos and its not every Doctor.
“that’s a bit scary for child-raising even if it is mutar. Kids don’t understand these things so easily.”
Kids are smart. The same way kids understand that when Tatty gets off his couch flashes hic cherry lights and saves the day its allowed, Dcotor’s kids understand too.
“But, if you are young and are thinking about med school, these are things to be considered. ”
Agree completely.
“They shouldn’t just be sworn off even if someone’s uncle’s cousin’s friend DID manage to make it work.”
Except it isnt just someones uncle’s cousins friend. That was PBA’s talking and he simply doesnt know what he is talking about. IT is many many frum Doctors.
And I mean those who take no call on shabbos at all.
Though I agree it is a concern and is worth discussing. But not in some hyperbolic manner devoid of any fact.“Am I correct, or incorrect, that most frum doctors do not do a shomer shabbos residency, and do not even try to”
I honestly do not know. Most that I know have done a shomer shabbos residency (when I say most I mean 90%) though I readily admit I have access to a biased sample since I hang out in more “black hat” circles, relatively speaking of course.
I’d guess its lower in other circles, but I do not know first hand.
mentch1
I’m sorry I thought I was clear. There is no difference generally speaking.
I was explaining the perceived diference. I dont want to speak for PBA but he already answered thsi question (and Ive heard it from others) he said:
“it is way different from for example being in hatzala where you regularly do melacha on shabbos for specific pikuach nefesh situations. Doctors treat shabbos like any other day.”
He then elaborates :
“Hatzalah guys wear a radio, and go to shul, and daven, and go home, and eat a seudah (and yell at their kids and swill scotch and fall asleep on couch). Albeit perhaps also run out on a few calls. Doctors put on their work clothes, go to their regular job”The Emergency room physician who covers an ER from 7 to 7 is up before most hashkama minyanim and goes off to save lives like he does every day (on that point he is right, aside from the generalaztion as not all frum doctors go in shabbos). IT just doesnt carry the same panache as the hatzola guy who is hocking in shul on his radio and rns off sirens blazing to save the day. Sure the patient he is saving will require the help of our ED doctro friend who has been up since 6 or earlier and doesnt get to “swill scotch and fall asleep on couch” but nobody sees him. Sadly he wakes up to early and doesnt get fancy sirens.
(Also I think a perceived difference might be the clientele. Hatzolah saves mostly yidden, though some goyim “slip in” as well. A doctor is equally taking care of everybody mostly Goyim even in a Hospital like Maimonides. Im not sure if this is viewed as a difference, Joseph implied that it was. Though I dont want to put words in his mouth. and I have never heard this distiction given and I dont beleive any posek b’zman hazeh views this as a difference.)
As an side as for the OP. IT is worth noting than even if Doctor does have a heter to “work” on shabbos. PBA’s point is stil valid as there is no question that the family’s social aspects of shabbos are interupted and this is certainly importnant to consider even if no halachos are being violated.
I believe this was PBA’s original point, and it is a valid one. My only contention was the generalaztion that htis applied to “all doctors”
PBA
First of all
“and you’ll stop pretending that all do ”
I did no such thing and in fact said the opposite on more than one occasionsecondly, back up a second
this thread was about someone asking about ” who want to be doctors but live a frum life”
to that end he/she asked a few specific questions that were adressed.you then brought up Shabbos in a hilarious fashion.
I pointed out that regarding Shabbos there is a lot of variability. Though agreed it was an issue/challenge.
You then wrongly generalized “The bottom line is that if you become a doctor, you will probably no longer keep shabbos. ”
I pointed out a few more times that this wasnt always the case, though agreeing that it was a challenge. and you repeated your false information a few more times, (hilariously as always)At no point did I ever say it was never an issue or that “all doctors kept Shabbos” you created a strawman while repeating your wrong contention
And again, while you seem to be getting the bulk of your info from my uncles cousin who knew somebody, he isnt a good source of information, and sadly youve been misinformed.
mentch1
“Frum doctors are sometimes forced to take call on Shabbos, but why is this different than hatzalah? ”
It generally isnt , though it depends on a lot of specifics and the exact nature of the call. Obviously an internist who drives to manage the local urgent care treating sore throats and fevers isnt the same as hatzolah. But I dont know any frum peple who do this (though that isnt to say there are some who do it under some “doctor heter” that I am not aware of.)“Generally being on call means taking emergency calls. Why are people on this site thinking that doctors just go into work on Shabbos as if it is a regular day?”
Ive wondered the same I think it is because they dont run out in middle of Shul with sirens blazing off to save the day. IT just doesnt carry the same panache, as one poster put it “Doctors put on their work clothes, go to their regular job” saving lives * being deprived of the post life saving “yell[ing] at their kids and swill scotch and fall asleep on couch”
*Please dont mistake this for a generalization, while not all physicians save lives on a day to day basis, many do, it is this limited group that I am referring to when I say they are no different than hatzolah.
Avi
What does “unfavorable scholastic achievements” mean?”
Did she get poor grades? Yes that is what it means.” I don’t see why other parents should care.”
Exactly which is why the story is so terrible“However, her parents should have explained to her that she would not succeed in a school that demands scholastic excellence and looked for a less demanding school.”
– Reread the letter please. “She was excited to put in her best efforts”
– who said other schools were available?” What do you want?”
that Girls should have a school, and once accepted shouldn’t be thrown out to pacify others.” That she should be given good grades just to make her feel better?”
No, Im not sure where that came up in the letter or what that has to do with anything.“I went to public schools in NYC. I was accepted into a “specialized” HS but only received middling grades there.”
thats great! are you suggesting this girl go to public school? otherwise whats the relevance?
…”Some of them are now doing much better financially than me so it seems that Hashem really does decide how much parnassa each person gets.”
this isnt about parnassah, it is about getting a Jewish education
“On the other hand “unfavorable scholastic achievements” could be a euphemism for disruptiveness”
I have never heard of that euphemism before. I think stick to the pashut pshat.
” If she indeed committed suicide over this apparently she was not very stable. ”
again, please reread the story, the suicide was several years later.
This would explain the opposition of the other parents. IMHO if so they were right.
“They do not have to endanger their children”
Endanger their children? I missed that part
” because one girl’s parents miseducate her and will not seek proper help to undo the damage.”
Miseducate her?
Are you sure we are talking about the same letter?PBA
Please stop generalizing.
As you said:
“Who are all these ppl saying ridiculous stuff?You don’t get to change the facts because you have a friend who is a doctor.”
There are plenty of Shomer shabbos residencies. IF you dont know what is available and dont know the realities just ask.
And yes we all have challenges. Im not sure what the problem is with that descriptor, some are challenged by feeling the need to opine when they clearly have no clue what they are talking about. for others the challenge is being deprived of your beautiful ” yell[ing] at their kids and swill scotch and fall asleep on couch. ”
DY
This isnt Gemara it isnt neccesary to overanalyze the letter.
The letter is prety straight forward
I’ll summarize:
”
It starts off why a young girl who couldnt get into schools (it gives the reason “due to her unfavorable scholastic achievements”)
she was then accepted
Other student’s parents complained that she was accepted.
she was rejected
and ultimately died. (the implication is suicide though this sint explicit either)Is it possible that the real reason she was rejected is she showed up with a gun the first day and started shooting? Sure! however that isnt what the letter says
The letter is pretty straightforward. Like M29 points out. dont get caught up in the details. The gist of the story is in the letter.
You say
“We can’t know how important those eliminated facts are without hearing them.”
so put that in as a caveat. :
Assuming the story is true, and assuming there isnt some gross detail that would drastically change the story then …“If there are no specifics how can anyone render an opinion?”
Im so confused. Are we talking about the same letter? The letter posted was full of specifics. Granted some were eliminated, some were changed but the story as told is quite specific. (though not necessarily true)
“Nor does it say what the background is, why the other parents would want their daughter is associating with her.”
It does: “due to her unfavorable scholastic achievements” (at the least it certainly is strongly implied)
” Why is it assumed that they were wrong?”
I think to most people having “unfavorable scholastic achievements” is not worthy of death.Yes Shabbos is a challenge faced by many physicians, more so than other professions.
however there are a wide variety of approaches to how this is handled.
Partly depending on specialtyThere are some who work (almost) every Shabbos there are others who have never had any call or done any melacha on Shabbos.
and there are many in between.I am fairly certain this was mentioned already. and I dont really think think there is much to debate on this issue (as far as the metzius)
“You didn’t mention the group that don’t carry their phone & don’t go to the hospital.”
I did
“but before you denigrate the President of the US in a public forum, you should base it on facts.”
1. Last I checked it is stilll a free country. Just like Trump was free to criticize Obama based on conspiracy theories therby dabbling in politics which led u s to today, I am free to do the same.
2. This thread was why Trump fired Comey. the reason I gave has been confirmed by donald himself, Im not sure how much more factual you can get.
3. Youre question was regarding Trump’s inner thinking. I assumed it was obvious that no person can actually know and thus you were asking me to make an educated guess. Im sorry if I in any way insinuated that any of my reasons wre based on fact (in fact some were contradictory)
4. Trump has been in the limelight pretty long. He isnt some new -comer to the public stage. The truth is Trump doesnt think far ahead. He has said this in several interviews over the years. Thus reason number 1 is likely the correct one and is (more that the others) based on fact.
RY
that is because the expert experts you mention have an agenda that people shouldnt take experts seriously““ You still didn’t answer the question! –I love the conspiracy theories! If you think Comey was on to something with regards to Russia, why would firing him solve anything?!?””
I’m sorry To make up for the lack of response I’ll offer several take your pick:
1) Trump didnt think that far ahead (does he ever). Comey was investigating so he got mad and fired him
2) He was planning to appoint his own crony who wont look into it (I’m fairly certain I said this earlier)
3) the replacement would have dropped it, but Comey forced his hand by releasing the memo thus having a special counsel appointed
4) I dont know. Trump does/says many things that are impossible for rational people to explain. this might be one of them
5) You said “The guy appointed to lead the FBI swears he doesn’t profess allegiance to Trump” maybe he is lying and did profess allegiance to Trump
6) You said “The guy appointed to lead the FBI swears he doesn’t profess allegiance to Trump” Maybe he lied to Trump and told Trump he would profess allegiance to him though he didnt mean it.“so if there is any criminality – they can find it without Comey”
yes hopefully.Kolelman
“You guys do realize that Alan Dershowitz (who is by no means a Trump supporter) clearly stated that there is no criminality here”Alan Dershowitz is not some sort of final say. (though he certainly knows more than I do) Other lawyers disagree with him. If Mueller digs up something that the senate feels is “high crimes and misdemaneor” a term that I beleive is deided on by the senate, definitely not by Alan Dershowitz Trump can be impeached and his pardoning days are over
and even if not. Many americans want to know the truth. Even if there is nothing that can be done about it
PBA
“Doctors put on their work clothes, go to their regular job. While their kids sit at home and mother yells at them.”Thats true for Some. (though exceedingly rare that it would be every week)
Others carry a phone answer emergent/urgent questions
Others carry a phone answer urgent emergent questions and occasionally go to the hospital if/wwhen their is an emergency (this is the group that is similar hatzola)still others dont even carry a phone (see DY’s post)
Thus your line “Except doctors don’t keep shabbos.” should read “some”
(as an aside Sadly though some accountants, lawyers, mechanics laundry chute sweepers and Elephant trainers also dont keep shabbos. (granted not as many as doctors ))
Ok PBA I’ll bite.
How is it different than hatzola, The Hatzola guy doesnt carry his radio for any “specific pikuach nefesh situation”? He carries it in case he gets called (and he often/always does)
“Doctors treat shabbos like any other day.”
some do some dont.“As the gemara says, they go to gehenom.”
the Gemara also says hamechane shem ra lechavero goes to gehinom, so we can learn bechavrusa.
Maybe the Rambam can give us shiur