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Lyb
“First, According to those that are saying that kiddush you shod be Machmir with the shiur, then you should be machmir every Friday night.”
Agreed. but see below
“Second, in Shulchan aruch it only mentions a machlokes regarding the kzayis for matzah, … But nowhere does it mention to be machmir by a kos,if it is a doyraysa kos, to use the bigger shiur.”
Why would it be different? When you are unsure/have machlokes regardign shiurim by Deorisa’s me machmir and d’rabanas be meikel. Why would there be a difference between MAtzah and Ksosos?
” If your are machmir to use the biggest shiur by mitzvos in general, then be machmir by the first kis as well. If your not usually machmir in general for the bigger shiur in mitzvos than you won’t have to be machmir here.”
By defintion you never “have to be machmir” If a person wants to be machmir with some mitzvas and not others tovoi alav bracha! Why is it all or nothing? (Especialy given the aformentioned distinction between Deoraysa and Drbanan)
“If your going to want to use the Chazon Ish’s shita for the first kos, you might as well wear the long tzitzis all year round”
Wait what? Mai Inyan shmita Eitzel Har Sinai? How did you even make the conecion MAtzah to tzitizis? A person want to be machmir with a mitzva that is chaviv and comes once a week (or once a year if only PEsach he is makpid, or even once every 3.5 years if he is makpid only when the first night PEsach is Shabbos) Would you say no first get bigger Tzitzis?
Standard minhag is not to
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46448&st=&pgnum=309
I have never seen it printed in a Hagada, obviously this isnt the strongest rayah, though it certainly indicates that the “standard” minhag is not to say it. (Of course it may be printers were cheap to print it so people stopped saying it, regardless it certainly indciates that it wasnt said.)
As always if your minhag is to say it, then by all means.
Incidently i’ve looked through old hagadahs and they (almost) never have Shir Hamalos printed before benching. I’m not sure why this is. Any thoughts?
LF
I’m curious which of these do you think are chiyuv
– fire alarms in a public place
– having clearly marked and accessable exits in public place
– wearing seatbelts while driving
– putting a locked fence around your pool
– Looking before your cross the sreet
Thanks
Jewish Thinker
I gave you a very detailed account
Mesorah 123
I heard from R’ Michel Shurkin (on multiple occasions)that there is double schar for drinking chalav stam: keeping kosher and listening to the psak of a gadol
Another question:- Do we chant Sholom Aleichem & Eshes Chayil this Friday evening prior to Kiddush on 1st cup?
No
We want to start the seder right away kidei di kleiner kinder zullen nisht einshlufin
I think there should be a new rule men fregt nisht kein kasha oif ah minhag, similar to a kasha oif ah maiseh. Minhagim rarely make sense we do it becuase our parents did it.
So why do those who dont eat gebrokts eat it the ladt day?
Because thats the minhag.
(Incidently, some only eat gebrokts the last day when the following year is a leap year)
Sam2 As far as I’m aware, the standard minhag among non-gebrokts eaters (present company included) is not to use charoses for korech.
As for viewing those who eat gebrokts as “less frum” Please switch every mention of black-hats in this thread http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/black-hat-2 to “not eating gebrokts” and the EXACT same conversation can be had regarding Gebrokts vs non-gebrokts (which is viewed as a chasidish lmisnaged divide)
Friday night Kiddush is Deorysa Source: Shemos 20:8 with Gemara
Arba Kossos is derabanan.
when unsure regarding shiur (or most things for that matter) by deoraysa we are machmir and by derbanan meikel. Hence the bigger shiur for the Deoraisa first kos/Kiddush on Friday night
Jewish Thinker
what kind of Mekor are you looking for?
suppose I told you The story occured Tuesday afternoon February 28 1978 or 21 Adar I 5738. He had justy finished giving a shiur on Atzutz Nakuv, when he asked for a coffee. ONe of the younger bachurim jumped at the oppurtunity and ran off to prepare it. Shortly after having the coffee the Rosh Yeshiva felt unwell and vomited. This was very unusual and created a big tumul. At first soem suspected the milk as it had been sitting out all day, but others drank the milk and were fine. This was really starnge. It was then that the mistake was realized. This young bachur and never prepared the Rosh Yeshiva’s coffee before and was understandibly nervous at the task at hand. He didnt double check the milk and accidently used a private bottle of instea don the Yeshiva’s cholov Yisroel milk. The end
Is that the mekor you had in mind?
now it is even online so it has to be true. And is will be enshrined for all eternity so this silly mekor for for an even sillier story will be preserved for generations to come.
Gamnait Absolutly fantastic question!
The answer is it is a risk/(cost)/benefit analysis, like everything in life. Wearing seatbelts has zero cost, minimal risk and tremendous benefit. Without question not wearing one while driving is putting yourseldf in sakana (even though they didnt exist in chazals time(!)).
For someone prone to allergies not carriyn around an epi pen is s sakana (it has minimal cost/minimal risk and tremendous benefit) HOWEVER for everybody to carry an epi pen has Tremendous cost/ moderate risk/ and Miniaml Benefit thus it is not reccomended.
As for AED’s in those predisposed to arythmia they get an implantable device it has moderate cost/moderate risk/tremondous benefit. For the public, who are not at risk AT THIS POINT it has Tremendous cost/Moderate risk/ and moderate-minimal benefit.
As for smoke detecotrs well the cost is miniaml risk is zero and benefit, well last week’s event should be a wake up.
hope this helps
(note: my stratifying of risk/cost/benefit is complete quess work, I’d be happy to reevaluate any of them)
DY Not me thats for sure. (Although it depends what you mean by “downplaying”)
In your opinion, Which is more obvious and which should be done first?
To all those who said there HAS to be a deeper reason and it cant just be about smoke detectors, or that having smoke detectors should be obvious.
I count at least 2 posters who STILL downplay the need for smoke detectors. (LF and YYBC) Any others?
Thanks comlink. Misogyny was a bit strong, male chauvinism is much better
A maamin, (and others who agree)
Earlier you quote this beshem Rabbi Wallerstien “If Hashem wanted to teach us about smoke detectors and hot plates, Hwe could’ve taken 1 child, we would’ve all been shocked as well, BUT here it was SEVEN KARBONOS!! “
I would like to bring Little Froggie’s last post to your atention, regarding the need for having smoke detectors “We are bidden to be ???? ??????. How far that ??????? goes.. that’s open for discussion.”
It seems Rabbi Wallesrtiens’ assessment was incorrec. Even with 7 korbanos rch”l not everybody got the message. A message that several posters described as “obvious”
Joseph
I dont think non-profit means what you think it means
Jewish Thinker
It was about 5-6 years ago on Purim, in his apartment
Joe
I am so sorry to break this to you but hospitals are mercantile purposes as well. Granted they may be more chashuv than beans but so is wine.
“I don’t think anybody would object to naming a shul or yeshiva after a godol. “
Dont be so sure it is a very big often strange planet. I didtn think anybody would object to naming a wine after a Rishon who was (beleived to have been) a wine-merchant
Jewish Thinker
My family is. Ive asked him before he said he doubted it was true.
I heard from R” Nota Greenblatt that in Memphis R’ Moshe drank cholov stam “and at least in the next 6 hours or so didnt throw up, ich veis nisht vos hut geshen nuch dem”
Bary
No it is less clear. Now your topic has absolutly nothing to do with the OP. (Though still an interesting discussion perhaps, one that I agree with)
Lets back up.
The OP was about differences between groups. I’ll quote:”why wont people go out with guys who don’t wear hats? can’t someone be religious without it? why does this define a person?”
I replied that the hat has come to serve as a self-chosen identifier of belonging to a certain “camp” There are differnces betwen these camps. It is childish to ignore these difernces and assume a Satmarer who never stepped outside Kiryas Joel can build a succesful home with a Modern Orthodox Girl who would like to make Kiddush Friday nights after a day spent farming her kibbutz. Both can be wonderful people yirei Shomayim, etc etc. But singing kumbaya and saying dont judge them based on dress is silly, and helps nobody.
Keep in mind wearing a hat or not, is not in born. If a person comes over to you with a name-tag on their chest that syas” Nice o mett you I am modern-orthodox” There is nothing wrong with assuming they are modern orthodox. This isnt judging. We are not talking about assuming they would sell trief meat (is that really what you thought?) we are talking about assuming someone with a “I am modern orthodox tag” is modern orthodox. A kipa seruga is a modern orthodox. Ditto for a black hat.
I am not sure how your comemnt fits in. I reread your second post It doesnt disagree with anything I said.
Are you starting a new conversation?
I came across an interesing mareh makom. See Tiferes Yisroel to Avos 3:14
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=37946&st=&pgnum=347
where he says That Jenner (the father of modern vaccines) is one of the chasidei umos Haolam, and recieving olam haba for saving ens of thousands from death and disease
Barry
Hanistarim L’Hashem Elokeinu. We cant tell what is internal. People decide to wear or not wear a black hat knowing full well which gruor they are therby self-identifying with. There is nothing wrong with judging people as belonging to a group that they self-identify wih.
Of course we should eb careful to be openminded enough to reevaluate once you get to know people.
Your example had nothing to do with a black hat, its not like if he wore a kipa seruga and sold treif chickens people woud have expected it. (I hope)
Barry
“The Israeli’s aren’t letting anything. Israel was going to attack, but Obama prevented it by exposing parts of the plan, like where Israel was to refuel and also prohibited Israel from flying over Iraqi territory when the U.S. has control of it.”
Was the source for this nonsense the Torah codes too?
Incidently i have a project for You Torah code friend. Could you please ask him to predict who will win the next US election. It can be narrowed down to say 20 names or so, Should take a matter of minutes to run. And if my understanding of the idea behjind the Torah Codes is correct. One and only one name should pop up (They love finding names after the fact which is complete giberish, before the fact would be ssemi-interesting.)
Also “he will be so bad for us, that it will lead to Moshiach.”
did it say how long after?
“If Rav Pam was a bean seller he wouldn’t have been Rav Pam. “
That sounds like a lack of kavod to me! I beleive Rav Pam could have been a bean seller and Rav PAm. Shame on you for knocking a Gadol B’yisroel.
At any rate Rashi was (believed by some historians to have been) a wine merchant and Rahi at the same time. Which is why your examples above where nonsensical
Also
Do you think calling a hospital Maimonides or ???? ????? ???”? is wrong?
DY taking lessons and learning mussar is always a good thing.
but this idea of needing “reasons” for every tragedy, and searching for “deep” understandings. Makes me uncomfortable. Moshe Rabeinu couldnt understand Tzadik Vera Lo. If only he had access to Rabbi Wallerstien’s Zohar he could just open it and find out!
The one certain thing to take from this tragedy is to check smoke detectors. period. If you are inspired to improve in other ways as well. Ma Toiv uma naim
Joseph
“And do you for even a moment think that Rav Pam’s descendants would dare permit his name to be used on a commercial food product (even if there was some relevancy between the food and Rav Pam)”
If Rav Pam was a bean seller. I think they would sell them.
Do you think Rabbi Reisman is opposed to Reisman’s cookies? (I know this is a terrible example, but yours are much worse)
Do you think calling a hospital Maimonides or ???? ????? ???”? is wrong?
(Scared,
joseph said not to buy it)
DY and Sam2
“The question is where the cut-off is. And I honestly have no idea where to put it.”
Those where my exact thoughts. Imagine the following scenario. (not at all related to the one that happened)
A family goes to sleep leaving a blech on the highest flame right next to a bunch of towels there are bottles of turpentine and propane all over the place (They are repainting the house and planning a camping trip at the same time). There are no smoke detectors.
Over night tragedy strikes and r”chl the house burns down with the family in it. Obviously a terrible tragedy, though perhaps avoidable.
Is this a sign from Hashem? Of course it is a tragedy. and of course we should always do Teshuva.
But I think in this case you would agree with Sam2’s
“Don’t try to say the reason is X. Don’t say if you want to get smoke detectors [and not leave flammable substances lying around] then you missed the point. Don’t pander to the crowd who think that the purpose of Emunah is to be able to understand every tiny detail of life that happens. And stop pretending a Rabbi’s job is to be able to answer them.”
Would you disagree in that case?
No but they aren’t alive and they don’t have any descendents who can claim ownership of their name.
If Rav Pam’s descendants allowed it I would certainly be ok with buying it. (Though again, it would be a very strange name)
Joseph relevant or not it is nonsensical. At any rate:
Would you purchase a bottle of Rav Belsky Orange Juice*?
Assuming it was kosher and tasty. Absolutely
Would you find that brand name objectionable?
Assuming he allows it, no why would I?
joseph obviously.
Though your compariosns should be relevant to the subject at hand. none of your examples made any sense
For anyone looking for mekor keneged most of these see
Devarim 18:13
chulentmoma613
Im not sure I follow, but I think I understand
“Does a person always choose a hat? Is it a choice if society forces it upon him?”
In this case yes to both, the person “chooses” to comply so that his kids get in the “right” schools right shiduchim etc. (We arent talking about “everything in life” just hats)
At any rate your question was about not wearing a black hat. I have never met anyone who wanted to wear one but felt pressured not to based on the above reasons (incidentally this speaks volumes about the tolerance of different communities compared ot each other.
Are you aware of a person who does not wear a hat involuntarily? THAT is what you were discussing in the op. I’d love to explain this to you further, but just want to make sure we are discussing the same thing
Ooh ooh picke me here we go in order
No
Yes
Lots of reasons mostly sociological
Yes
Hats arent inborn. The person chooses to wear or not wear a hat.
Ive been saying it for more than 10 years. I said it as soon as saddam was overthrown Though you are right people did say I wS crazy. Consider this though the Israelis are “letting” also.
Joseph, I dont follow was R’ Moshe a chilent maker? Waa Rav Elyashiv a fishmonger? Etc…
Yosi7, i’m a step ahead. Reread post.
Scared ive reread your post a few times and am still not sure which way you are arguing.
At any rate here are a few yeshivos named after rabbonim. Feel free to add more:
Chofetz chaim
Yeshivas rabeinu chaim berlin
Yeshivas rabeinu yitzchak elchanon
Chasan sofer
Beis yosef navardak (unless yosef was a donor)
Nequuitam and yekke2
The only one who brought a “mekor” of any kind on this thread was comlink (and Joseph). I double checked. (you dont provide a mekor either). This thread is chockfull of non-mekor based misogynist views. (Obviously that doesnt necessarily make them wrong)
That said, I never said I disagree. I said that I found the juxtaposition between:
“somewhere that in the End of Days, women would be equal to men, and that this begins to happen in the world as we approach that time.”
and the next post “and ?? ????? ?? ??? ?? ?? ????? a woman, who has pretty much zero ??? ????” Funny.
Thanks Yekke2 your post (absurd as it was)cracked me up reading Comlink’s post about women becoming equal to men and then in the very next comment “and ?? ????? ?? ??? ?? ?? ????? a woman, who has pretty much zero ??? ????”
made for a funny juxtaposition
BTw are you serious? (Poe’s law)
a mamin
Do you remebr the name Avigdor KRasny A”H? I didnt
I may be naive but I dotn think anybody will forget the Sasoon family.
scared.
Its not quite the same, but similar. At any rate are you agreeing or disagreeing?
Its more similar to naming a hospital Maimonidies
Joseph
Its a bizayon to use holy names for trolling
Scared
Rashi was a winemaker (or at the very least is beleived by some historians to have been one), thus it is a very appropriate name for a wine company. (I am not sure about the others)
DY
Your last post, may have been the best thing I have read on this website. Yasher Koach
Thanks Stam. I’m looking forward
DY thanks
Avram
Sort of, though this case (as I understood it) was about a guy who wears a srugi not being allowed to daven for the amud period. Even with a hat or at by day with a Talis. Perhaps I misunderstood
DY
Say there motive was that they did “not want to send up a shaliach tzibbur whose dress clearly represents a different hashkofo than the tzibbur he is supposed to be representing”?
Also why don’t you assume this is their motive? Did Damoshe tell you this was their motive, or did you assume it in the lakewood case?
Avram that wasnt all you said, you also said this :
“Different communities and shuls will have different definitions for dressing respectfully. You may disagree with their definition, and that is fine, but they have a right to their own definitions, and they have a right for their customs to be respected. “
So what about in the no shtreimel in Teaneck scenario
DY ,Joseph and Avram
I’m curious what you would say if say in Teaneck there was a rule that a person wearing a shtreimel cant daven for the amud?
Stam I never said angry. Im merely irritated. Its annoying that refuse to answer simple direct questions. I have spent time educating you about so many points that you are so uninformed about. (Sinai? Oker harim? Dont make me laugh you dont know the aleph bais of the sugya). The least I deserve are answers to direct questions, even if you cant reply to every point.
Stam
Continuation of #2 above.
In order to understand why the study you demand is impossible we need to discuss (briefly) an overview of study design.
you begin with a theory that you want to test, say Vaccines cause autism (or more accuratly are linked to autism) Or lets take a simple example you have a coin you suspect is an uneven coin.
You know want to design an experiment to determine if your coin is uneven (lets assume an even coin has a 50/50 shot of landing on heads) so you set up a “null hypothesis” That is that there is no difference between your suspicious coin and a regular coin. Our experiment will be designed to determine whether we should accept or reject the null hypothesis in favor of the “alternate hypothesis” which in this case would be that the coin is uneven.
Now obviously simply flipping the coin once and getting heads doesnt tell you to much. nor does flipping it twice even if both are heads, after all flipping an even coin twice would be expected to result in 2 heads 25% of the time This hardly proves the coin is uneven. Obviously you will have to flip your coin several times.
Now lets take it to the other extreme. Say you flip your coin 100 times and all 100 are heads. Is it impossible to have occurred by chance alone? Of course not, while admittedly suspicious it is POSSIBLE that you have an uneven coin and the unlikely occured. What to do with the hypothesis? To make it more complicated what if the split was 90 heads to 10 tails or 70 to 30 or 55 heads to 45 tails. Which of these splits are “statistically significant” proving that your coin is uneven and which are expected occurrence of chance?
To answer this question a “p value” is needed. The p value is a calculation of how likely the outcome is to occur based on chance alone. Generally a p value less than 0.05 or 5% is used. This means that in any significant study with a p value less than 5%, there is a less than 5% chance that the outcome occurred based on chance alone. By flipping a coin 100 times yielding 90 heads the p value is 0.0045 (I totally made this up, maybe charliehall can help if hes bored) this means that there is a 4.5% chance that the outcome occurred randomly which leads us to reject the null hypothesis and conclude that the coin is uneven.
So far so good?
Ok now on to your study
Stam
!. Thanks I’m looking forward. Do you have anything specific she wrote that you can recomend?
Also have you had a chance to read any of the studies I sent as per your request?
2. I explained earlier see http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/things-causing-autism-jokes#post-561945.
I will provide a seperate more detailed explanation though later this evening b”ln.
At any rate: Please dont dodge the issue. I provided several studies that meet YOUR criteria regarding Autism. Can we agree on that? If not why not?
3. how on earth can you determine if it cause harm without evaluating a study? Is your whole viewpoint based on a hunch?
4. No stress, do’nt worry Just irritated. That said you cna help by answering my simle direct questions. I have offered you the same.
I will copy paste it here so you can find it easily:
I provided several studies that meet YOUR criteria regarding Autism. Can we agree on that? If not why not?
Owl
As A follow up to last set of “Can you explain” questions here is another:
Can you explain why in underdeveloped areas with an equal vaccination rate, the Autism rate is so much lower?
(To comlpicate it further, consider the same cant be said for the other can you explain items namely: Coputers, cellphones and internet i.e. Areas with a higher prevelance of Computers etc.. have an increased incidence of autism.)
Stam, another point
“The medical people want to solve everything with drugs and vaccines “
This isnt quite true. The only thing I care about is evidence. If there is evidence that tantzing ah kezaktzke prevents polio, we would have the exact conversation just copy/replace vaccines with tantzing ah kezatzke. If there was evidence thta tantzing ah kezatzke caused (or was linked) to Autism, I would avoid tantzing. The “medical people” don’t advocate drugs/vaccines per se. It is an advocation of evidence, wherver it leads. Drugs are recomended and recalled as the evidence dicatates.
Stam
1. I have, but I’d like to broaden further. Please provide a sugestion for me to read, and if I havent read it already I bl”n will. I provided you with SEVERAL studies that you requested. Have you read any of them?
2. The study you suggest is mathematicly impossible (as explained above). Please dont dodge the issue. I provided several studies that meet YOUR criteria regarding Autism. Can we agree on that? If not why not?
3. LOl! Thanks for raising my spirits. I showed examples of where you who claim ot have researche dthe subject are woefully ignorant about the aleph bais of evaluating a study. Your response was some vagaaries about “venturing to say…”
Thank you for leaving the labeling of infomed vs uninformes to me. I provided specefic areas where you are uninformed regarding matters you claim to have reasearched
4. I can not becasue of 4b. in my previous post