Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Jewish thinker
I provided a source thats better and just as believable than any your going to get.
At what point are you going to get the hint that there may not be a source?
LF
which post do you mean, my posts to you are after his?
You keep saying he should be more familiar with our sources, which source do you mean?
Earlier you said chanukha presents are an innovation. I am wondering you how old do you think Shlissel Chalah is?
Dor Hamidbar? Bayis Rishon? Taanaim? Amoraim? Gaonim? Rishonim?
mw13
Why wouldnt a work of fiction be a legitimate source? A novel written in say Victorian england is a great source regarding how they spoke, lived dressed, and baked bread (if mentioned in the novel). Read Moby Dick (dont really it is long and incredibly boring), it is a great source of information on 19th century whaling and whaling towns.
regarding your second paragraph:
“How was the shape of the cross made? Either with a bone of a pig or with a cross shaped key. There is no parallel to the Schlissel Challah here whatsoever.”
Really No parallel? “OR WITH A CROSS SHAPED KEY” No parallel at all?
LF
with time Chanuka presents will be mentioned in Seforim.
It is already in (Emes L’Yaakov).
you say presents is an innovation. How old do you think Shlissel Chalah is?
Dor Hamidbar? Bayis Rishon? Taanaim? Amoraim? Gaonim? Rishonim? If yes to any of these, how do you account for the fact that it isnt mentioned in any of the thousands upon thousands of pages we b”H have recording literally everything we need to know about yahadus including how to run our lives from the dawn to dusk all year round throughout our lives?
DY
I didnt understand LF that way though you may be right. The bottom line is that just because an action exists, doenst inherently make it muttar Since “everything has its origins in the Torah” There is a concept of copying Goyim, minhagim are borrowed. As the saying goes “Vi es kristelt zich azoy yidelt zich” This is only natural in golus. It is admirable of Great Gedolim to give reasons to existing practices, they arent historians, they see an action among Yidden so they give it reasons.
Lets take a (hopefully) non-contrevertial example, given the upcoming Yom Tov. Eating milchings has many reasons given Do you think that once upon a time Chazal sat around thinking that “Shavuos doesnt have any food atached to it, lets come up with something” Someone else replied “Well Moshe Rabbeinu was on Har Sinai fr 40 days, cna anybody think of a food equaling 40?” “Yes! chalav equals 40, lets eat milchigs on Shavuos”
Isnt it obvious that this minhag (not mentioned in Gemara, or Early Rishonim) developed over time with reasons added by Gedolei Olam later? Otherwise how would you account for the variety of reasons given?
Is this controversial?
There is no reason to think that while reasons are given to Shlissel Chalah these reasons were added later to an existing Custom. In fact I’m willing to bet the original sources are clear on this. They give a reason to an ALREADY EXISTING minhag, The Oheiv Yisroel (or whomever first mentions it) doesnt say LEts start a new minhag, he gives a reason for an existing minhag. He wasnt a historian, he had much more important things to do, then research the development of the minhag.
LF
“I (in all my haughtiness) did not find so, I did not find such a Gra, I (again, in all my haughtiness) rely on Mesorah; as my fathers and Rabbis did, so do I. They believed and taught me to believe in Hashem, His Torah, His Mitzvohs and His Torah greats. No one is going to tell me following Minhag Yisroel Torah is chukas hagoy. “
I whole heartedly agree!!!. I plan to make Shlisel chalah As I Have every year, and my parents and Grandparents made. This in no way changes anything I wrote above.
I do have a related question but I think it deserves a new thread. Stay tuned
Lf
Everything has its origins in the Torah? Chanukah time there was a discussion regarding the min hag of giving Chanukah gifts, clearly a minhag borrowed from goyim (the discussion was wether this neccesarily made it assur) do you believe this too Automaticly has a source in the torah, after all it is included in everything. Others pointed out the minhag of trees in shul on shavuos, something the gra felt was assur as it is borrowed from goyim. Too bad he didn’t know where to look chas
There is such a thing as adopting goyish minhagim. If you can’t find an early source for it, (and I sincerly hope you do since unlike most people doing it today it actually is a family minhag of mine). It is reasonable to conclude that it is a recent innovation and given the similar earlier custom among goyim. It is reasonable to conclude that we adopted it from them.
Little Froggie. I dont follow.
You mentioned “Torah, Mishna, Talmud, Rambam, Shulchan Aruch, Rishonim, …, “
In which of those is shlissel chalah found?
(I left off Achronim since that is where it is in fact first found)
Dy.
Debunked? Really? not merely raised questions or provided a possible limud zechus, but debunked?
147 any book is a sefer.
Where do you draw the line t seforim to the best of my knowledge seforin have been written in 2015 too?
Leib is mentioned in seforim though not in tenach/mishna/gemara.
What year heralded the closing of Jewish names in your opinion and why then
Also nobody in tenach/mishna/gemara had the names chaim, pesach ,yomtov ilan etc. Are these then not jewish names?
Akuperma
The churban also happned in the past I hope you still cry over “spilled milk”.
You mentioned hitler. To the best of my knowledge he wasnt jewish.
But I think we are going in circles as you are repeating the same nonsense over and over.
Let me get this straight as I understand you, in your opinion the rampant intermarriage and assimilation taking place in America is a good thing, or at the least not wirth crying over
Is this in fact your view?
Joseph
what is your minhag?
147
All the more reason why reminders are important.
147
Has it ever struck you as strange that there is rabbinic literature what to do if one forgot tot make an eruv( relying on he Rav, Making on first day Yom Tov with a Tenai) Yet there is nothing about forgetting a seder.
Do you really think they are same?
147 What are you talking about? So in your opinion the following arent Jewish names?
Names that are Hebrew words that nobody in Tenach had eg: Chaim, Pesach, Yom Tov, Aryeh, Tzvi, Dov, Ilan etc
Names of Tanaim and Amaraim that arent in Tenach: Yochanan, Yanai, Abaye Rava, Huna, Akiva, etc
And of course names that we adoptied from goyim Alexander, Hyrkanus etc
?
Jewish Names are simply names used by Jews if enough Jews name their kid “Lemon Juice” at a certain point it too will become a Jewish name (I don’t know how long it would take) All the more so, if the name is something identifiably Jewish like a yiddish equivalant of an existing Hebrew name then the process is much faster.
Akuperma
“In America, most Jews gave up on mitsvos and assimilated into the general population. After a few generations, they are clearly goyim who have some Jewish ancestors”
There is nothing “Lucky” about this. This is a terrible tragedy, and it is troubling that you cant see this.
“They cease to be anti-semites.”
do you really need me to list anti-semites who do not have Jewish ancestors?
DY
It was a poorly worded way of pointing out that every chumra comes with a kula.
(A rebbi of mine often told the joke of the newly married brisker who told his wife the day before a taanis not to forget to prepare him breakfast, On the morning of the fast he finds two settings set for breakfast he tells her “No No you need to fast, didn’t I tell you when we got married that my brisker chumros are only for me)
Normative halacha allows for eid echad neeman bissurim and assuming chezkas kashrus in frum people.
The people Joseph knows are perhaps being machmir in kashrus but in so doing are being veeeery meikel regarding the din of eid echad neeman, and giving people chezkas kashrus.
akuperma
“Lucky” ?
How twisted does your sinah have to be that assimilation is now called “Lucky”
We aren’t lucky that “they assimilate further they will no longer see themselves as at all connected to Judaism, and like most Americans, will leave us alone” It is a tragedy!
The Israelis are the lucky ones! Since they have less to assimilate into.
Shame on you
catch yourself
“I know there is some sort of morbid fascination and curiosity,”
So you do understand!
Joseph are those people open orthodox? To be so meikel regarding giving people neemanus and chezkas kashrus. I love kulos as much as the next guy. But being meikel to the point of not eating by anyone ever? That is far too lenient
chevra we are watching history in the making!
On another thread I predicted that in a few decades. All sorts of reasons for this heilege minhag vasikin would be given.
I was wrong!
I heard from Rav Shlesinger in monsey a reason for this minhag (I dont remebmer it) This minhag is taking off faster than expected!
Feel free to give your opwn reason
Heres’s mine:
Ke’eileh is a roshei teives for the four pesukim of geulah in MEgilas esther:
Kuf- ki mordechai hayehudei
Alef – ish yehudi
Lamed – layehudim
Heh – Umordechai hayehudi (It starts with a vav which is only one letter away so its ok)
147
1) Ken zayn the minhag is/was not to wash mayim achronim at the seder. Rationales for minhagim are easy to make up: since mayim achronim is primarily for melech sedomis causing harm, on leil shimurim there is no concern
2) Youll note I never said it was the strongest rayah
3) I’m not sure how long the “minhag” of wetting fingers for mayim achronim is, but while I’m sure there are people who actually wash their hands IVe never actually seen it.
4) Not being included in the simanim is not the same as not being in the haggadah. Dont you find it strange that (almost?) every hggadah has kiddush printed incuding Vayechulu yet rarely (if ever) does it have Sholom aleicehm?
Jewish thinker
One time he drank water outside the sukkah and vomited. I’d be happy to share the details of this story if yu’d like
Akuperma
Granted I never learnt hilchos Para Aduma. Although we did read it recently, so the recipe is still in my head. The only things I recall needing are (See beggining parshas chukas):
1) Para Aduma
2) A kohein
3) Etz Erez
4) Eizov
5) tolas shani
6) Mayim chayim
7) Some kindling to burn the cow
Thats it! (granted some are easier said than done)
Where does the beis hamikdash fit in? (I dont think you need old para aduma ashes either, but that does ring a bell, Beis hamikdash i’ve never heard of needing)
do you have a source?
Akuperma
You havent really answered my question. Why does para aduma need beis hamikdash? Where did you get this idea from?
(the often cited problem is it needs a Kohein, which is a real halacha, its in passuk and brought in Rambam, and elegedly kohanim today are only a safek/chezkas kohein)
akuperma
why does a para aduma need the beis hamikdosh?
Never mind. I found it!
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=21194&pgnum=504
(I love google)
yekke2
Where have you seen this letter? I would love to see it.
I had always heard it was of the brain
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/chazon-ish-and-neurosurgery
Lyb
“First, According to those that are saying that kiddush you shod be Machmir with the shiur, then you should be machmir every Friday night.”
Agreed. but see below
“Second, in Shulchan aruch it only mentions a machlokes regarding the kzayis for matzah, … But nowhere does it mention to be machmir by a kos,if it is a doyraysa kos, to use the bigger shiur.”
Why would it be different? When you are unsure/have machlokes regardign shiurim by Deorisa’s me machmir and d’rabanas be meikel. Why would there be a difference between MAtzah and Ksosos?
” If your are machmir to use the biggest shiur by mitzvos in general, then be machmir by the first kis as well. If your not usually machmir in general for the bigger shiur in mitzvos than you won’t have to be machmir here.”
By defintion you never “have to be machmir” If a person wants to be machmir with some mitzvas and not others tovoi alav bracha! Why is it all or nothing? (Especialy given the aformentioned distinction between Deoraysa and Drbanan)
“If your going to want to use the Chazon Ish’s shita for the first kos, you might as well wear the long tzitzis all year round”
Wait what? Mai Inyan shmita Eitzel Har Sinai? How did you even make the conecion MAtzah to tzitizis? A person want to be machmir with a mitzva that is chaviv and comes once a week (or once a year if only PEsach he is makpid, or even once every 3.5 years if he is makpid only when the first night PEsach is Shabbos) Would you say no first get bigger Tzitzis?
Standard minhag is not to
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46448&st=&pgnum=309
I have never seen it printed in a Hagada, obviously this isnt the strongest rayah, though it certainly indicates that the “standard” minhag is not to say it. (Of course it may be printers were cheap to print it so people stopped saying it, regardless it certainly indciates that it wasnt said.)
As always if your minhag is to say it, then by all means.
Incidently i’ve looked through old hagadahs and they (almost) never have Shir Hamalos printed before benching. I’m not sure why this is. Any thoughts?
LF
I’m curious which of these do you think are chiyuv
– fire alarms in a public place
– having clearly marked and accessable exits in public place
– wearing seatbelts while driving
– putting a locked fence around your pool
– Looking before your cross the sreet
Thanks
Jewish Thinker
I gave you a very detailed account
Mesorah 123
I heard from R’ Michel Shurkin (on multiple occasions)that there is double schar for drinking chalav stam: keeping kosher and listening to the psak of a gadol
Another question:- Do we chant Sholom Aleichem & Eshes Chayil this Friday evening prior to Kiddush on 1st cup?
No
We want to start the seder right away kidei di kleiner kinder zullen nisht einshlufin
I think there should be a new rule men fregt nisht kein kasha oif ah minhag, similar to a kasha oif ah maiseh. Minhagim rarely make sense we do it becuase our parents did it.
So why do those who dont eat gebrokts eat it the ladt day?
Because thats the minhag.
(Incidently, some only eat gebrokts the last day when the following year is a leap year)
Sam2 As far as I’m aware, the standard minhag among non-gebrokts eaters (present company included) is not to use charoses for korech.
As for viewing those who eat gebrokts as “less frum” Please switch every mention of black-hats in this thread http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/black-hat-2 to “not eating gebrokts” and the EXACT same conversation can be had regarding Gebrokts vs non-gebrokts (which is viewed as a chasidish lmisnaged divide)
Friday night Kiddush is Deorysa Source: Shemos 20:8 with Gemara
Arba Kossos is derabanan.
when unsure regarding shiur (or most things for that matter) by deoraysa we are machmir and by derbanan meikel. Hence the bigger shiur for the Deoraisa first kos/Kiddush on Friday night
Jewish Thinker
what kind of Mekor are you looking for?
suppose I told you The story occured Tuesday afternoon February 28 1978 or 21 Adar I 5738. He had justy finished giving a shiur on Atzutz Nakuv, when he asked for a coffee. ONe of the younger bachurim jumped at the oppurtunity and ran off to prepare it. Shortly after having the coffee the Rosh Yeshiva felt unwell and vomited. This was very unusual and created a big tumul. At first soem suspected the milk as it had been sitting out all day, but others drank the milk and were fine. This was really starnge. It was then that the mistake was realized. This young bachur and never prepared the Rosh Yeshiva’s coffee before and was understandibly nervous at the task at hand. He didnt double check the milk and accidently used a private bottle of instea don the Yeshiva’s cholov Yisroel milk. The end
Is that the mekor you had in mind?
now it is even online so it has to be true. And is will be enshrined for all eternity so this silly mekor for for an even sillier story will be preserved for generations to come.
Gamnait Absolutly fantastic question!
The answer is it is a risk/(cost)/benefit analysis, like everything in life. Wearing seatbelts has zero cost, minimal risk and tremendous benefit. Without question not wearing one while driving is putting yourseldf in sakana (even though they didnt exist in chazals time(!)).
For someone prone to allergies not carriyn around an epi pen is s sakana (it has minimal cost/minimal risk and tremendous benefit) HOWEVER for everybody to carry an epi pen has Tremendous cost/ moderate risk/ and Miniaml Benefit thus it is not reccomended.
As for AED’s in those predisposed to arythmia they get an implantable device it has moderate cost/moderate risk/tremondous benefit. For the public, who are not at risk AT THIS POINT it has Tremendous cost/Moderate risk/ and moderate-minimal benefit.
As for smoke detecotrs well the cost is miniaml risk is zero and benefit, well last week’s event should be a wake up.
hope this helps
(note: my stratifying of risk/cost/benefit is complete quess work, I’d be happy to reevaluate any of them)
DY Not me thats for sure. (Although it depends what you mean by “downplaying”)
In your opinion, Which is more obvious and which should be done first?
To all those who said there HAS to be a deeper reason and it cant just be about smoke detectors, or that having smoke detectors should be obvious.
I count at least 2 posters who STILL downplay the need for smoke detectors. (LF and YYBC) Any others?
Thanks comlink. Misogyny was a bit strong, male chauvinism is much better
A maamin, (and others who agree)
Earlier you quote this beshem Rabbi Wallerstien “If Hashem wanted to teach us about smoke detectors and hot plates, Hwe could’ve taken 1 child, we would’ve all been shocked as well, BUT here it was SEVEN KARBONOS!! “
I would like to bring Little Froggie’s last post to your atention, regarding the need for having smoke detectors “We are bidden to be ???? ??????. How far that ??????? goes.. that’s open for discussion.”
It seems Rabbi Wallesrtiens’ assessment was incorrec. Even with 7 korbanos rch”l not everybody got the message. A message that several posters described as “obvious”
Joseph
I dont think non-profit means what you think it means
Jewish Thinker
It was about 5-6 years ago on Purim, in his apartment
Joe
I am so sorry to break this to you but hospitals are mercantile purposes as well. Granted they may be more chashuv than beans but so is wine.
“I don’t think anybody would object to naming a shul or yeshiva after a godol. “
Dont be so sure it is a very big often strange planet. I didtn think anybody would object to naming a wine after a Rishon who was (beleived to have been) a wine-merchant
Jewish Thinker
My family is. Ive asked him before he said he doubted it was true.
I heard from R” Nota Greenblatt that in Memphis R’ Moshe drank cholov stam “and at least in the next 6 hours or so didnt throw up, ich veis nisht vos hut geshen nuch dem”
Bary
No it is less clear. Now your topic has absolutly nothing to do with the OP. (Though still an interesting discussion perhaps, one that I agree with)
Lets back up.
The OP was about differences between groups. I’ll quote:”why wont people go out with guys who don’t wear hats? can’t someone be religious without it? why does this define a person?”
I replied that the hat has come to serve as a self-chosen identifier of belonging to a certain “camp” There are differnces betwen these camps. It is childish to ignore these difernces and assume a Satmarer who never stepped outside Kiryas Joel can build a succesful home with a Modern Orthodox Girl who would like to make Kiddush Friday nights after a day spent farming her kibbutz. Both can be wonderful people yirei Shomayim, etc etc. But singing kumbaya and saying dont judge them based on dress is silly, and helps nobody.
Keep in mind wearing a hat or not, is not in born. If a person comes over to you with a name-tag on their chest that syas” Nice o mett you I am modern-orthodox” There is nothing wrong with assuming they are modern orthodox. This isnt judging. We are not talking about assuming they would sell trief meat (is that really what you thought?) we are talking about assuming someone with a “I am modern orthodox tag” is modern orthodox. A kipa seruga is a modern orthodox. Ditto for a black hat.
I am not sure how your comemnt fits in. I reread your second post It doesnt disagree with anything I said.
Are you starting a new conversation?
I came across an interesing mareh makom. See Tiferes Yisroel to Avos 3:14
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=37946&st=&pgnum=347
where he says That Jenner (the father of modern vaccines) is one of the chasidei umos Haolam, and recieving olam haba for saving ens of thousands from death and disease
Barry
Hanistarim L’Hashem Elokeinu. We cant tell what is internal. People decide to wear or not wear a black hat knowing full well which gruor they are therby self-identifying with. There is nothing wrong with judging people as belonging to a group that they self-identify wih.
Of course we should eb careful to be openminded enough to reevaluate once you get to know people.
Your example had nothing to do with a black hat, its not like if he wore a kipa seruga and sold treif chickens people woud have expected it. (I hope)