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Stam:
1) Stop pretending, the government didnt reveal anything an independent journalist exposed the fraud that is Wakefield. Yet in spite of the evidence you still say “supposdely” refuted. Wheras when it comes to the “medical establishment” based on no evidence whatsoever you claim they are all lying for finacial gain. You have such firm convictions based on all the “research” youve done, yet the best you can determine regarding wakefield is “supposedly debunked” in the face of the overwhelming evidence against him. I’m sorry that makes you a supporter of his
2)”Autism is only one piece of pie. Again, i do not know enough to comment on any one study. I want to know the whole picture and that can only be done with the large scale study with all sides involved as i and others have suggested.”
Ok so lets focus on that one piece. Several large scale studies that you have sugested have been done and I provided them above. If you cant admit that there is no link between vaccines and Autism (just that one piece) in spite of my providing you with studies you demanded. Please do’nt claim to be “”honest enough to entertain the other side”” Not only that, you arent even honest enought o entertain your own side, since youd be moving the goal post you yourself set up!
3) nothing is impossible. Besides you have the terms confused. It is the unvaccinated who are uninformed, and are in fact being punished! So conceivable or not it is happening.
4) I am very irritated.
a. because you claimed that with a study you would change your mind. I provided several studies.
b. You are putting lives at risk.
and c. you pretend to be informed but you dont know the aleph beis of study design. Earlier you didnt know what statistical power is, you made a demand for a study that is impossible, you dont understand the fundamentals of a RCT. Which is fine of course, just dont pretend you researched a subject you know so demonstrably little about
OWL
you left of the rest of the quote so I well go that route. The only link they found was anaphalxis.
“can you help us to understand why autism has gone from 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 100 during the vaccination era? “
a. I cant
b. can you help us to understand why autism has gone from 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 100 during the computer era?
can you help us to understand why autism has gone from 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 100 during the cell phone era?
can you help us to understand why autism has gone from 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 100 during the internet era?
Can you help us understand How vaccines cause Autism?
Can you help us understand why in spite of several studies proving that there is no link (let alone a causal one) people still cling to this?
As pointed out Hashem doesnt have emoions. We attribute our emotions to Him in order to relate/understand. We percieve Hashem as being Angry etc. In which case I dont get the question if you percieve something coming from Hashem (and everything does) as being humurous then Hashem has a sense of Humor.
Heres a (not great) example. I’m sure all know the classic joke of the Reform Rabbi who goes golfing on Yom Kippur and gets a hole-in-one. The Malachim ask God How can you allow this when the Rabbi is desecrating the holiest day. God replies: Who can he tell.
Now whether or not the joke is funny, is it kefira? Since it is attribuing an emotion to H”KBH?
More to the point though. Suppose the story was real, namely the reform Rabbi is golfing on Y”K and gets a hole-in-one. The Rabbi “gets” the joke and is annoyed at his hole-in-one since he cant tell anybody. and views it that way as if Hashem is “playing a prank” on him. Is that view kefira?
stam
I would like to point out some dishonesty in your post, in attempt to show you how youve been blinded:
you say : “What can i tell you my friend? I just don’t trust the govt. and medical establishment since there is so much money involved. “
(as an aside don’t trust them blindly nowhere did I say vaccinate because the governent says so or the medical establsihement says so,)
You say you suspect them becasue of finacial biases. Fair enough. Yet you also accept Wakefield, although he had finacial biases too! (keep in mind the government doesnt make money on vaccines. They SPEND both on development and administration (medicare/medicaid)) This is not being “honest enough to entertain the other side”
you raised a series of points above. I responded to each and every one.
Here is another example. Earlier you said you would agree if a study involving “1000 people” could be done. Granted I could not provide any showing that there were NO risks associated with vaccines (nor did I claim that to be the case). Yet I did provide SEVERAL studies showing just that, with regard to Autism. You chose to ignore them. this is not being ” honest enough to entertain the other side”
“I say to both of you, spend ten hours online reading the other side with an open mind.” I have (sadly)
finally:
“but i wonder if He will punish someone who makes an uninformed one!”
He has already! and whats (arguably) worse He punished the informed as well as a direct result of the uninformed’s actions.
Stam Big name or small name if your doctor tells you “I know nothig about health” Its time for a new doctor
“I said even though Wakefield is discredited,”
Um no! you said quote “”Just because he was SUPPOSEDLY discredited ” (emphasis added)
“the theory stands”
why? and on what?
“There are way too many unexplained diseases that vaccines can be the culprit”
I’ve asked before and i’ll ask again. Why vaccines? Why not computer usage?
stam: 2 more points
“”I know nothing about health – i only know how to prescribe drugs!!” ” Please get a new doctor! There are plenty who do know about health.
“One thing i have learnt in my pursuit of health and that is you cannot separate the money and politics away from the health advice and medicine “
Yet you do trust wakefield? Earlier you said : “Just because he was supposedly discredited ” I assumed the “he” was wakefield. You do know his “study” was funded by lawyers looking to sue vaccine companies right? And furthermore he wasnt even opposed to vaccines. quite the opposite he was opposed to the MMR and favored a single vaccine that he secretly held the patent for!
This is the guy you trust, why the double standard?
STam:
1. Look up statistical power. Briefly say Leukemia has a prevelance of 1/2,000 comparing a group of 1,000 with vaccine vs. 1,000 without would not be expected to show a difference. If you want to include “Anything” in your study it would need to be powered to find a difference of prevelance in diseases much less prevelant than 1,000.
2. That wouldnt be randomised, a study like that would “prove” that suspicous people are less likely to develop diseases as much as it would prove unvaccinated are less likely.
3. I am not sure what you mean. Case studies wouldnt help in this case. If you mean Case controls they are looked at over years, but retroactivly. For example you take 1,000 people with Autism (cases) and “match” them to 1,000 without (controls) and you see if there is a difference in vaccination rates between the two. Which brings us to…
4. Forget the fact that he has been discredited. The very study you demand has been done. Pleas see sources above!
Can you agree to put that hoax aside? Now that several studies has been provided to you?
5. I’ll phrase my aside in the form of a direct question: Why do you think Vaccines casue problems? If it is just base don increase incidence of Autism this occured along with an increase in computer ownership, how do you know computers dont casue Autism? why vaccines?
6. “There is simply too much money involved to trust the govt. ” the government pays for vaccines they dont make money of them
Lol stam
The study you describe is impossible “taking into account EVERYTHING” That is a lot of stuff. firstly 1000 people wouldnt have enough power to detemine if there is ANY difference between the two groups so your demand doesnt really make sense. (keep in mind, we aren’t even discussing cause, this is merely looking for a corelation. )
Furthermore, a prospective Randomized controlled study would not be ethical, as it would endanger children by denying them, what ALL evidence we have indicates is life saving therapy. So the best we can do is a retrospective case control study to or a cross sectional survey. Both of these HAVE been done (some with over a million!!! people). However, again with a case control you have to know what you are looking for, you cant just look at “anything” otherwise you cant find controls for each of your cases.
From the diseases you mention, Autism, learning disabilities and leukemia have all been looked at.
Secondly, this thread is about Autism which HAS been looked at. in a study with “1000 or more people involved on each side” Can you agree to put that hoax aside? Now that several studies has been provided to you?
As an aisde maybe it is the prevelance of Personal PC’s why dont you provide a study with “20 YEARS study please taking into account EVERYTHING from autism to cancer to leukemia to learning disabilities to ear infections to sids etc. etc.. etc……1000 or more people involved on each side.”
Two more points:
“I am saying that anyone who thinks it’s 100 percent safe is a fool.” Agreed! Nothing in life is 100% safe (nor is life itself) sorry if I misled you.
“billions of dollars has already been paid for vaccine injuries. “
source please
Stam I’ll take that challenge! though forgive me if instead of one study I’ll provide several:
Increasing exposure to antibodystimulating
proteins and polysaccharides in vaccines is not
associated with risk of autism
DeStefano F, Price CS, Weintraub ES.
Journal of Pediatrics. 2013;
On-time Vaccine Receipt in the First Year Does Not Adversely Affect Neuropsychological Outcomes
Smith M and Woods C, Pediatrics. 2010;
125(6): 1134-41
Measles-Containing Vaccines and Febrile Seizures in Children Age 4 to 6 Years
Klein N, et al., Pediatrics. 2011; 129(5): 809-14
No Evidence for Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccine-Associated Inflammatory Bowel Disease or Autism in a 14-year Prospective Study
Peltola H, et al., Lancet. 1998; 351:1327-8
Mumps, Measles, and Rubella Vaccine and the Incidence of Autism Recorded by General Practitioners: A Time Trend Analysis
Kaye JA, et al., British Medical Journal. 2001; 322:460-63
MMR and autism: further evidence against a causal association
Farrington CP, et al., Vaccine. 2001; Jun 14; 19(27): 3632-5
There are more, but I do not want to overwhelm you. I’d be more than happy to discuss further any questions you may have on any of these (or other) studies you come across.
Please let me know if you would like some more
stam a deya
MAybe it was the carseat? Could it just be a coincidence that he was in a car seat?
What would you say if a result your neighbor didnt place his other kids in car seats? What if he convinced others not to put their sons in car seats?
DY my last reply was to vague for my liking here is a direct (tentative response):
Making fun of the anti-vaccine movement – should be done becasue it is not based on hosent mistake and causes harm (Although the movement includes those with tragic circumstances)
making fun of anti-vaccine individuals: if honest mistake- I think making fun is wrong
if its deliberate misleading: If harm can result absolutly make fun
If harmless, I wouldnt in tragic circumstances
Hope that helps. I am not writing this in stone though
DY
Good question.
Honestly I am not sure. If it was deliberate misleading, given the consequences that can and have resulted, I think I would make fun of the misleading and dishonesty, obviously never of the terrible situation that person is in. I dont think having judgement clouded is an excuse to threaten other lives, though again I am torn.
For some reason this is a charged topic. So lets use another (hopefully non-controversial) example. A person’s son got hit by a car shortly after davening in shul R”chl. The person is now petitioning the government to ban shuls posting on forum about all the studies proving shuls cause Car accidents etc etc needless to say this person has gone through a terrible tzar that nobody should ever go through. (note avoiding shul isnt as dangerous as avoiding vaccines) I think I would mock the Anti-shul movement, if they refused to listen to evidence and reason. Though I probably would not make fun of the specific person unless he himself was a threat to People going to shul.
Though please note I always address the actual argument.
Please see here: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/to-the-people-who-refuse-the-gift-of-vaccines#post-561090
where I asked Owl for evidence of his assertions, of course he never replied.
OWl
The causality they found is with ANAPHALAXIS ie allergic reaction.
They went on to say:
“Additionally, evidence favors rejection of five vaccine-adverse event relationships, including MMR vaccine and autism and inactivated influenza vaccine and asthma episodes. However, for the majority of cases (135 vaccine-adverse event pairs), the evidence was inadequate to accept or reject a causal relationship. Overall, the committee concludes that few health problems are caused by or clearly associated with vaccines.”
I’d like to highlight that entire paragraph, in particular the last line:
“Overall, the committee concludes that few health problems are caused by or clearly associated with vaccines”
From the VERY source you quoted!
Of course you left this out of your post.
Now the question becomes if you DELIBERTLY left off that last line. OR if it was an honest mistake. For an honest mistake, I wouldnt make fun. Now that mistake has been corrected and you know that “Overall, the committee concludes that few health problems are caused by or clearly associated with vaccines”
IF however this was an intentional misleading of the public, given the dire effects that can and have resulted from such dishonest manipulation it is VITAL that you and those like you are made fun of
DY
“That’s correlation. Is there also causation?”
Presumably (though arguably not definitively). This is because there is a understandable/viable mechanism as to how your pressing send causes your post to go up.
The problem is the shoe lobby is too strong. There is tons and tons of research out there proving that shoes cause autism but the government and shoe stores are working together to bury it. Thank you Rebyid for helping spread the word!
Teyereh Health,
Before you repeat yourself over and over without actually answering my questions or responding to my points, please take a second and look up the term “hocking ah cheinek”
We arent talking about agreements involving carpool, babysitting or the buying chinese tea. We are discussing the agreement made by the early Zionsits not to draft the charedim. Stop trying to evade the subject, THAT was the agreement you at first claimed lasted forever, and then when i pointed out how nonsensical that was, you then claimed in response “”I never said “agreements last forever”! Are you now talking about another agreement that isnt the topic of this thread?
Thanks dearest Health, your last point cracked me up while at the same time providing examples of your dishonesty and evading questions:
Earlier you said:
“they made an agreement. Who says they wouldn’t abide by the agreement, even though it’s 2015?” … “Do you think that the US Constitution lasts forever? The agreement from the founding leaders in Israel, called the “status-quo” is like the Constitution!” (both are verbatim from your own words)
So yes if that isnt outright saying that agreements last forever it is certainly implying such
Now you say:”I never said “agreements last forever”! Somehow you think that I implied that.”
🙂
(As an aside, if you (correctly) dont view government agreements as lasting forever, how long do they last? a year? a decade? A generation? until circumstances change? or until overruled by the legislature/court?)
I then asked you
“If the draft gets revoked and R’ S Aurbach supports voting in the next election would that be him changing his mind regarding Zionsim and now viewing the Brisker Rav as wrong?””
Please note that like most of my points pointing out how flawed your “logic” is, you simply ignored it while repeating it as if you were addressing it.
oyoyoy
I’m not sure if the “your” in your post was directed to me. But I am not saying that Yeshivas should have a mandotory nach seder. In actually dont think there is a solution. I am just pointing out a very real problem that exists in our Yeshivas with their single minded focus. Again this doesnt mean the single minded focus is wrong ch”v, it has a flaw but overall MIGHT be the only way to produce bnei Torah.
Keep in mind, once leaving Yeshiva this becomes less of a problem, since outside the daled koslei hayeshiva, people can be celebrated/appreciated for a variety of things even if they arent “cut out for learning” whether it is the baal chesed, succesful in buisness (lav davka ina financial sense, I mean in a way that helps people, though financial sense woks for some people too. ) Or even “merely” raising a nice family, most peopel can and will achieve at least one of these, giving them the sipuk they need. Yeshiva guys have just one thing. Learning, and even that is limited to one mode of learning.
Health more dishonesty. I did explain to you why you’re idea that agreements last forever is absurd, you have yet to respond to that
(“As mentioned before Agreements dont last forever especially when governments are involved. (read the Senator’s leter to Iran for a modern day example)So sorry to have to burst your uninformed bubble (again).”
You then replied with a non-sequitor about R” Shmuel Aurbach and then more non-sequitors about feeling guilty.You never replied to my point. I, of course easily responded to every unrelated point you made, but dont lose track of the original thread)
Now you are shifting gears again, but of course I will patiently explain to you how wrong you still are.
“That was my whole point! A lot of people are starting to see that the Brisker Rov was right about Zionism & Zionists.”
That was not your point!
Let me bring you up to speed since you are having trouble following your own train of thought (again)
You claimed I feel guilty that R’ S Aeurbach now sees the Brisker Rav as right.
I pointed out that this isnt a reason to feel guilty since I am not one of his followers.
You now either a. forgot what your point was or b. are changing it to a new similarly irrelevant point. one which you have been doing this entire thread.
Two other points:
a. R’ S Aurbach can hardly be called “a lot of people” Please see here: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/293145/photo-essay-admorim-and-rabbonim-voting-in-eretz-yisroel-on-election-day-2015-photos-by-jdn.html
and here:
b. If the draft gets revoked and R’ S Aurbach supports voting in the next election would that be him changing his mind regarding Zionsim and now viewing the Brisker Rav as wrong?
Catch yourself. I dont want to get caught up int he specifics of one example. bottom line is the gas case is muttar for any number of reasons, not least of which is pikuach nefesh.
I learnt in Ner Yisroel, when I last checked it was the second largest “black hat” yeshiva in america (Waterburry might be overtaking). There is no regular Halacha seder at least that is adhered too. I am not saying there should be, after all there isnt a chumash seder either, obviously that doent make it unimportant ch”v.
The bottom line is mainstream Yeshivas do not place a chashivis (or emphasis) on pactical halacha. I am not saying this is wrong or even a problem per se, but this is certainly the case.
What I do think is a problem, which is what i understood the OP as saying, is that as a result of the deemphasis of practical halacha, bekiyus, Nach and other limuddim, those who are not cut out for iyun are made to feel inadequate. Nobodody wants to feel inadaquate. Similarly those who are not cut out for learning at all, but have other kochos, be it music sports art etc are not appreciated for their strengths either. Obviously this does not mean Yeshivas should introduce Art, or music Sedorim. i am just pointing out a very real problem with no obvious solution or perhaps no solution at all.
catch yourself IF its Kli shemelochto lissur, it would be mutar to shut it litzorech gufo, to prevent foul odor.
Thank you for highligting the lack of practical halach learning in “mainstream yeshivas”, though I think that is secondary to the OP’s point
Um everybody would. It depends who he was running against.
APY The start of your last post is spot on up until here:
“but you can not say “the food that person certifies is not kosher”. The more private an individual the better chance they have at a successful defamation suit.”
This part contradicts your first few lines
In order for the court to determine whether the defendant’s saying “the food that person certifies is not kosher” is defamation or not the court would – by definition- have to get involved “in determining if the shulchan aruch and nosei keilim or lihavdil the jts handbook on kashrus is what determines kosher.” Which as you correctly start out saying, they will not do. There is zero chance of a successful defamation lawsuit much as if you sue me for saying your Eruv, or Mikvah arent kosher
Health
“The Truth hurts – doesn’t it? The Herzl Zionists were better than nowadays Zionists [- the “Religious Zionists” which are Biyet Hayehudi (NRP – Mizrachi)]! “
As explained to you it isnt the truth. You are dishonest.
“Over the fact that even R’ S. Auerbach was angry at the last gov.!”
Nope I’m not one of his followers, never was. It is no different than the Satmar’ Rav Shita. I didnt feel guilty then I dont feel guilty now.
APY it is not defamation if it is true even they were damaged by the remarks.
For example if I say John is a molester, he sues me becasue now his child care he runs in his basement is suffering. If it turns out he is a molester, I am not liable even if his business suffers. In order to determine liabilities the court will decide if my remarks were true.
Now on to kashrus
If I say Shirley’s organization is unrelaible and her “hechsher” business suffers. In order to be found liable the court would have to determine if I am right or not. However, as you correctly pointed out, “The law will not decide whose standard of kashrus is correct ” Therfore the case will get thrown out even if her business suffers since the court can not determine whose interpretation of Kashrus is correct.
This isnt limited to kashrus. If I say a mikva isnt kosher would be the same thing
Any specefic (recent) case you can cite that says anything different?
(In the old days there were laws protecting Kosher. Kosher was determined to be only by orthodox standards. Then (not anymore in NY) the opposite of what you say could occur, since I could ahve sued Shirley for claiming to be Kosher when she wasn not by orthodox standards. But this is moot today)
“Have no idea how things work over there, to me it would seem even a bit shallow that the “whole of Klal Yisroel” is mixed into these things. No? “
Shallow? Absolutely not. Events that involve/concern litterally millions of Yidden can not be called shallow
DY, people dont want to be tolerated, they want to be appreciated.
People have a variety of talents. Learning, particualry the specific type of learning that is Valued in (most) Yeshivas, is not practical for everybody. As the OP pointed out some are more cut out for Bekius or other limudim like Halacha. Some peoples kochos may not be in learning at all, they have other strengths and talents, that more often than not are not appreciated in Yeshiva or may even be shunned (like being good at sports) These people want and deserve appreciation for their strengths too.
This is a known problem with no (easy?) solution. As obviously Torah and other talents, are in different leagues.
I had an extensive discussion with a respected Adom Gadol regarding this. He was asked what the point of the Yeshiva’s Purim Shpiel was. He said the only reason he could think of was, as an opportunity to celebrate/appreciate those with talents that they don’t normally get to show off such as Writing/directing/acting.
To be clear: I am not saying Yeshivas or Yeshivaleit SHOULD give chashivus to talents other than learning. I am just pointing out the reality of this problem, which may not have a (easy?) solution.
Apushitayid
“The law will not decide whose standard of kashrus is correct “
so then how can she sue me. She drags me to court she says pork is kosher, I say it isnt and her hechsher is garbage, we ask the judge to rule “The law will not decide whose standard of kashrus is correct ” and we both walk out.
The kashrus agencies say reccomended, as DY pointed out becasue you cant say anything with, say a triangle K is Treif. It may or may not be. It is simply “not recommended”
Health
guilty? over what?
“You’re trying very hard to say I’m wrong. WHY?”
Its simple. There are many different threads on a variety of topics in coffee room. I dont comment on most of them since, on most topics even if I disagree witha poster, I see how reasonable people can disagree So I dont bother. I leave it as “agree to disagree” without actually going through the motions.
The threads I comment on things that are so illogical or nutty or simply factually incorrect that I do not believe reasonable people can disagree. (Obviously there are (a few exceptions).
In fact one of the threads that first got me commenting was on a math equation. It was an elementary school level problem that involved order of operations. See here :
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-x-0
People where actually arguing! There were several answers given. Even after the correct answer was explained. There STILL where those insisting a wrong answer was correct. There is no “Agree to disagree” OR my favorite response there, “It depends on how you perceive [it]” No! the answer is 14. any other answer is simply wrong.
Or another example, which I beleive you agree on is that of vaccines. It is not a discussion where we can “agree to disagree” Blaming Autism on vaccines is simply wrong. PEriod. I’d be happy to explain ad nauseum why it is wrong. As I recall youve argued regarding vaccines too. You’e tried very hard to say others are wrong. WHY?
Is it because you’re feeling guilty??!?
I doubt it.
Back to the subject at hand. I dont think Ive ever argued (on YWN) regarding Zionism or the draft. Those or both topics about which reosanable people can disagree. However your comment:
“The Herzl Zionists agreed that Frum people don’t have to go to the army. Nowadays – the “Religious Zionists” which Biyet Hayehudi (NRP – Mizrachi) is part of the gov., passed the law forcing e/o to be drafted!”
Was so absurd for several different reasons as outlined previously, that it is not something about which reasonable people can disagree. So before completely writing you off as unreasonable, I shall point out over and over how foolsih your original statement was.
Apushitayid
“If Rabbi Shirley Temple claims it is kosher and certifies it as such, you can not claim “anything certified by rabbi temple is not kosher”, since the law will not recognize one standard over another.”
I dont follow , if they (the courts) say I cant say Shirley’s certification is non-kosher. Then they ARE recognizing one standard over another.
If I say, I’ts notkosher because she relies on R”T and I don’t hold that way (to ue an above example) for the court to rule in her favor would be recognising her standard over mine. Which you say they wont do. And I agree they shouldnt get involved in a “machlokes” whether we can rely on R”T’s shita.
To use an extreme example if she says pork chops are Kosher. In court she can claim that according to her interpretation of Kosher law pork is kosher (say she claims it is kosher if treated humane or something). I say thats nonsense and Pork, even if certified by Rabbi shirley is non-kosher. How would a court be able to rule whose interpretation of “kosher law” is correct?
Lol Health! That one cracked me up,
You lft out the first line of the story you quoted :”After much debate and endless discussion on the matter, HaGaon HaRav Shmuel Auerbach Shlita has rendered his final decision regarding elections for 20th Knesset. …” This was posted yesterday 3/16. A few days AFTER you claimed he said to boycott. You are a hilariously dishonest individual.
At any rate, this is a side matter, The main issue is whether supporting the draft now is “dishonest” You attributed this absurd view to R’ Aurbach, and have et to provide a source for it.
markblik
“but the facts are there.”
where?
I’d be happy to dis-spell any misconceptions, false information you have been fed
“And if you say it is only a small number of children,”
I dont
Health
“If I elaborate, will you stop trying to manipulate e/o with your Zionist Shittas?”
a. chas veshalom!
b. No where on this thread have I espoused any zionist shita. In fact zionsim can be the work of the sitrah achra combining all 50 sharei tumah in an effort to destro klal yisroel and every point I made (on this thread) would still hold true. All we are discussing on this thread is if those who support the draft now are more dishonest than the early zionists. All could be Reshaim Gemurim, that doesnt change the point at hand.
yo””Yahadut Hatorah Trying to Get Back Some of the Lost Voters (11 opinions)
[VIDEO IN EXTENDED ARTICLE] Facing a boycott at the polls from the Yerushalmi faction”
does not say he said not to vote for Gimmel.
“WHY? Because they supported the last gov., which voted in a law to draft Yeshiva Bochrim! “
Of course they oppose the draft. This isnt what we are discussing. For arguments sake, I oppose the draft too! we are discussing whether the original agreement should remains in force for all eternity and if by Now supporting the draft, the NRP are “dishonest”
Barry, Im having trouble understanting this
you say “If Ch’v, Herzog becomes Prime minister, he will capitulate to Obama and every Arab demand. It would put Eretz Yisroel in mortal danger.”
and then:
“Whatever happens, is min HaShamayim and will ultimately be for the good.”
so why ch’v to the first scenario?
Owl
“And there’s plenty of evidence that many children have had their lives destroyed that way”
Care to provide ANY evidence? Let alone “plenty”
You say ” What the good Rabbi meant is that there’s big bucks in the vaccine business.”
Question for you: How much do you think a pediatrician makes for adminisering a vaccine? Im curious to hear your guess
Health, each of your posts are more dishonest and of topic than the previous one. congrats!
“You keep on with your total nonsense!”
Care to elaborate for once?
“Why don’t you ask R’ S. Auerbach? He’s a member of Degel, but he says you can’t now vote”
source please, I suspect you made that up
“Gimmel because the Israeli gov. renegaded on their agreement on drafting Yeshiva Bochrim!”
source please, I suspect you made that up
Note: This is seperate from the previous likely made up point, though obviously related. It is only the second point that we have been discussing, The first point while interesting is only tangentially related to the subject at hand
“I hold like Brisk & Satmar,”
You do not hold like Satmar, Youd be run out of town if you were to tell anyone in Kiryas Yoel you consider the Early zionists in general and Ben Gurion in particular “honest” have you even read Vayoel Moshe?
Lol health, youve rebutted nothing.
Youve made false claims and backed them up with dishonest rambling. That doesnt coaunt as a rebuttal.
As mentuioned before Agreements dont last forever especially when governments are involved. (read the Senator’s leter to Iran for a modern day example)So sorry to have to burst your uninformed bubble (again).
Health youve said that already.
Ive pointed out why that claim is absurd for at least 3 reasons
See here: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/im-anti-zionist-now#post-559653
Health, sadly as usual your post isnt accurate.
You say “the Gedolim Only agreed to the Medina if the Frumme can’t be drafted!” Nope! The medina was made with or without the Frumme. The draft issue was only discussed after the founding to keep charedim in the ruling Labor party’s coalition where they remained through 1977 (I have to double check the date)
The Laws of the Torah never change, even if time does! (sort of true, there are parts that fall out of favor for one reason or other, but this is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.)
For arguments sake, the draft could be wrong halachicly, even Yharog Veal yaavor and your first post regarding the dishonety of NRP vs original zionists is still absurd
Health you are not telling the truth.
you now say “I claimed that you can’t call yourself religious – if you make laws that most religious Jews oppose!”
This is NOT what you claimed, nor is it what we have been discussing.
We have been discussing this silliness: “You said the religous zionists were more dishonest than the founders of the State because the religious Zionists went against an earlier agreement”
As idenitfied in the last post. Which you said was “True!”
As to who says the agreement was made forever, you said “me and most Charedim” Well we have already identified that you are not an honest individual, and I have never heard anybody else claim the agreememtn was made forver. As asked before (and ignored) do you have a source to this end, or is this more of your dishonesty?
The Goq
It may or it may not, There is no way any of us can possibly know. It is completly up to the owner. They can extend till you step out of the store, all day, all month or every year on that same date as long as it isnt a Wednesday. You have to ask him/her.
The Goq
You have to ask the restaurant owner, he may not necessarily check ywn coffee room.
I’m curious what he says, please let us know
Health
i didnt follow your response to my first point.
I’ll bring you up to speed since I think you may have gotten lost:
You said the religous zionists were more dishonest than the founders of the State because the religious Zionists went against an earlier agreement
Among Several absurdities in the above, i pointed out that agreements dont neccesarily last forever.
You then brought up the U.S. Constitiution, and said somehtin along the lines of, why would we follow it if agreements do’nt last.
among Severla absurdities in THAT comparison, I pointed out that the U.S. Constituon has in fact been changed (“ammended”) 27 times.
To which you replied “It can’t be changed, just amended. Do you know the difference?”
I asked you for definitions instead you supplied synonyms. I provided definition any of which apply equally to the Constitution and any agreement regarding draft.
After that you lost me.
As to your other points:
“The terms were forever, even though it wasn’t enforceable!”
a. Says who?
b. Even agreements made forever can be changed in ways. See The U.S constitution, for example.
instead of replying to my next point you said “You’re playing lawyer again! The agreement is valid because they wrote the law that way –
exempting Charadim.”
a. Of course I’m playing lawyer, Arent we discussing a law?
b. They wrote the law that way then wrote it another way. Laws much like constitutions change (see above).
“I didn’t say early Zionists were Tzadikim. In previous generations people were generally honest. They kept their word.”
Beseder so Ben Gurion was honest I can live with that.
Lol Health, I think you made up that definition. source?
Here is what Webster’s says
” Amend:
to change some of the words and often the meaning of (a law, document, etc.)
: to change and improve (something, such as a mistake or bad situation)”
Both of these can easily apply to any “Agreement” you say was made. Even if you believe it WAS binding and enforceable, which obviously it was neither, who knows the terms? What if I said it was made for one generation, there is no way to disprove my made up contention which is why verbal agreements are worthless.
As an aside, easy on the Am haratzos, with out a kinyan a verbal agreement is halachicly worthless and unenforcable. Of course there is an inyan of Lo yachel divaro, but a. Ben Gurion is dead, there is no reason to uphold HIS divaro. and b. I dont think he cares.
Oh as to your third silly point that early Zionists were honest, Peres is still alive and he supports the draft too!
Health
Agreements not in writing are worthless.
I do not know the difference between ammend and change. Please enligten me.
I find it surprising that you consider Ben Gurion honest. But ok we can let that one go, I can live with it.
My Response is the same as that of ywn, the vast majority of frum Jews and for that matter the general pulblic:
meh
ROB
You are making less and less sense.
A. The U.S. constitution is in writing
B. It has been amendended 27 times to date! Sure it cant just be changed wily nily, there is a legislative process. But just becasue an “agreement” was made 200 years ago or even 60 years ago. Does not make it binding for all enternity. As relaities change things change
C. “Previous generations were honest, no matter what their religious belief was!” So kidnapping yaldei Teiman was honest?
ROB/ Health (that makes more sense)
“hey made an agreement. Who says they wouldn’t abide by the agreement, even though it’s 2015?”
In writing? what kind of agreement do you think was made? You think it lasts forever no matter what changes? You have a childish/imaginative view of history
“Herzl’s followers would Not renegade on their agreement, like the “so-called” -“Religious Zionists”!”
Lol! if you beleive that you are a bigger zionist than I am
Happy Purim
ROB
Was your comment supposed to make sense? With Purim so close its hard to tell.
The Herzl Zionists compromised that frum don’t need to go to the army based on realities at the time. Times change. Are you saying Ben Gurion liked the idea of Long term learning for all then ? Are you saying he would still support it now? What on Earth are you talking about?
Of course if you meant it as a Purim post apologies. Some posts are so silly it is hard to tell see Poe’s law
I’m curious if anybody knows of any Gedolim whether in America or Israel who have seen it
I only put down 10 pieces of chametz and found 11