WolfishMusings

OK, ready now, I think I’ve got your argument. Needless to say, it has a bunch of flaws. I’ll go through them one by one.

You started with:

I’m assuming your argument here is that abiogenesis is impossible and, therefore, God must exist. I’m not so certain that that’s true. Perhaps it *is* possible for things to come into being by themselves. Can you prove that they can’t? In short, you’re making an assumption here — that the one and only way that things can come into existence is via God. You’ve not proven that assumption.

You then continue with:

I’d like to break this down further:

So we have established the world has a Creator The Holy One Of Israel.

You have established no such thing. Even if I were to grant you your previous premise (that things don’t just make themselves), you certainly haven’t proven that the Being that we worship is the being who created the world.

You then go on to:

That means He would be able and willing to communicate with us if He so wished – and He did,

This is one of the worst flaws in your argument. You are engaging in circular reasoning. How do you know that He communicated with us — because it says so in the Torah. But if you’re trying to prove Torah Min HaShamayim, you can’t use the text of the Torah as that proof.

since no-one else did, we can safely acknowledge Him as The Sole Communicator to the Jewish people

I fail to see how you’ve proven that there is only one deity. You’re just asserting it. Perhaps there are two or more.

In short, you’ve failed to prove the point. You have failed to prove that God exists. Even if I grant you that the world was created by a god, it is certainly not proven that he is still around (lower case letters used on purpose).

You’ve also failed to prove Torah MinHaShamayim. In fact, the only attempt you’ve made to prove it is from the Torah itself — an example of circular reasoning.

Furthermore, as a result, you’ve also failed to prove your premise that if everyone were to stop learning Torah that the world would be destroyed. You’ve still presented no evidence to this assertion.

That the Torah is from Heaven is just obvious because we established above that The Creator Hashem is able to and did communicate with all of us Jewish people here today and did so as we all stood at the foot of Har Sinai, at Matan Torah.

No more loitering in the Coffee room.

Proof, please?

The Wolf

The world would have ceased to exist if Torah was not being studied.

Again, where’s the proof for this? Where is the proof that the world will end if everyone stops learning Torah?

I am sorry to have to say this Wolf, many idolators are amongst those who think that the world exists without a maker.

That’s not a proof. Because an idolator believes (or doesn’t believe) something does not affect whether it’s true or false.

The additional proof is that many times the world has almost come to an end has v sholom, because of neglect of Torah study – e.g. people with real potential loitering in places like this particular thread in the Coffee Room asking or pretending to ask totally un-called for questions, inviting what comes.

Are you suggesting that asking questions in the CR is going to cause the end of the world?

I’m beginning to think that you don’t fully understand the concept of a proof, so I’ll expand upon it.

You stated that the constant study of Torah is proof that it comes from HKBH. Again, how is that proven? You state that if it were not studied, the world would cease to exist — but, again, that’s an assertion, not a proof.

You stated that the fact that the world cannot exist without HKBH is proof that the Torah is from Heaven. When asked for proof, your rejoinder was “well, idolators think….” What idolators have to say on the matter is really beside the point and is not a proof at all to your position. So, again, I ask you the same two questions…. a. please prove that the world cannot exist without HKBH and b. if you can prove a, please show how this is a proof that the Torah is from Heaven.

To guide you, allow me to give you a piece of advise one of my professors in grad school told me:

A set of facts or evidence without a position is a summary.

A position without facts or evidence is an assertion.

A position with facts and/or evidence is an argument.

Please provide a cogent *argument* to prove your points.

Thanks,

The Wolf

2) Stories like are really accurately reported, eyeroll. You are judging from the word passuled, which is a translation of something reported on an Israeli blog to assume what actually happened, rather than use seichel? You are better than that.

But you are making assumptions when there is no basis to do so. You don’t know what happened… neither do I. Hence, my statement that it depends on how it was reported.

In any event, even if you are correct, my other point remains. This should not have been done at the wedding — if the MK had a problem with any particular person or had any objections, he should have made them known to the chosson and kallah before the wedding, giving them the option to either find another witness or find another MK (if they really wanted this person as a witness).

It is not proper to make personal/political statements such as this at someone else’s wedding. If you have a non-halachic objection, take care of it beforehand.

The Wolf

It’s impossible to have been so accurate back when the gemara was written

I blogged about this two years ago. To summarize:

1. If you can count days and lunar cycles, you can come up with a pretty good estimate for the lunar period. All you have to do is note the number of days and lunar months between solar or lunar eclipses and divide. The more data points you have (i.e. the more eclipses observed), the more exact your figure for the lunar cycle will be.

2. Secondly, this is presented in the Gemara as a tradition that Rabban Gamliel received from his father that the moon’s period is not less than 29 days, 12 hours, 40 minutes and 73 chalakim. Let’s assume, for the moment, that the statement is true (which, to the best of my knowledge, it is). What does it prove? It proves that Rabban Gamliel’s father knew the period of the moon, nothing more. Even if you posit that HKBH came to Rabban Gamiliel’s ancestors and told them “The period of the moon is not less…,” all it proves is that they knew it. It certainly doesn’t prove that everything (or even anything) is in the Torah is true.

Do we really know how much knowledge the Greeks and Romans garnered before the onset of the Dark Ages?

Forget the Greeks and Romans… it’s older than that. The Babylonian astronomer Naburimani calculated the synodic period of the moon several centuries before Rabban Gamliel.

The Wolf

P.S. By the way, it’s a common assumption/fallacy that the ancients (i.e. non-Jewish) astronomers/scientists couldn’t have known anything without watches, telescopes and the like. If you want to get a good idea of how much you can learn about the Earth from just a stick, stone and a rope, read Chapter 5 of Neil DeGrasse Tyson’s excellent book “Death by Black Hole.”

The Wolf

What did you get a ticket for?

Just got a cell phone ticket

… presumably for using it while driving.

The Wolf

I don’t think he said he is pasul for eidus, rather as mesader kidushin, he decided that he does not want this operson as an eid. Which as mesader kedushin seems to fall within his purview.

If that’s the way it happened, I would agree with you (although, were I the mesader kidushin, I would have investigated these things before the chuppah, rather than potentially embarrassing someone at the wedding itself — but that’s not the point we’re arguing). However, it’s reported that he disqualified him, not asked that he simply be replaced with another.

The Wolf

probably because the guy with an iphone has access to the internet…and we all know what kind of dirty things are there…so we assume this person does some bad bad aveyros…

And you have a functioning car, and we all know that a car can take you to all sorts of dirty places that you shouldn’t go to… so we assume that you’ve frequented these places.

And you have functioning hands, and we all know that property is often left around just “asking” to be taken… so we assume you’ve done some serious stealing…

And you have a knife capable of cutting through things, and we all know that a knife can be used to assault, injure or even kill people… so we assume that you have committed serious assaults and murder…

Bottom line: the means to do something does not mean we can assume that that thing has been done.

The Wolf

Search for it under “On Your Way.”

I believe it’s “onyourway” written as one word.

You are correct. My apologies for the misinformation.

The Wolf

As intelligent human beings, we should all have a pretty good reason for why we believe in Torah min hashamayim. I’m just curious – what are the personal proof(s) you have?

I have none. Every “proof” that’s been presented to me for Torah MinHashamayim has not stood up to intellectual scrutiny.

And yet, despite that, I believe. I don’t need an ironclad proof.

The Wolf

No such app is coming up…

Sorry. Search for it under “On Your Way.” The app icon is a silhouette of a man holding a book against a green field.

Edited

The Wolf

Assuming you don’t want to spend $10/month for the Artscroll Daf Yomi subscription, you can always download “U’v’lecht’cha Baderech.” It has lots of seforim (including Shas) and, best of all, is 100% free.

The Wolf

Do people expect to change other’s opinions?

No, I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind. But I enjoy hearing other people’s opinions and I enjoy debating issues.

The Wolf

Just out of curiosity, what are the halachic grounds for making this determination? Obviously, when the disqualifications were codified, Iphones did not exist. So, how were the classic disqualifications applied to apply to one who owns an Iphone?

The Wolf

Often Rashi says “makshin Ha’olam”, the world asks. Remember how your rebbi explained this?

That applies here as well.

I don’t remember. Please elucidate.

The Wolf

A school knows that it can only work together with parents. They cannot fight parents. Why would they think they can be successful or for that matter not detrimental when a parent proudly and loudly proclaims the opposite of what the school is trying to teach.

Perhaps. You may have a point here.

They weren’t accepted in local schools? Because of someone’s proudly crowing about his rishus?

By the way, I’ll thank you not to spread false rumors about me. Unless you know me, you have no way of knowing which school we applied to, if we were rejected from any and, if so, why we were rejected.

The fact of the matter is that I did not apply to any schools in Brooklyn for my kids for high school. So, unless you have evidence to the contrary (which you can’t have, because it didn’t happen), I’ll thank you not to tarnish my reputation further than it already is.

The Wolf

Don’t you think people should ask their LOR before assuming something is automatically muttar.

Within reason, of course.

With regard to the subject at hand (going into the army), yes, one should ask their LOR before joining the army. I never implied otherwise. (My objection was to the absolute categorization of it being forbidden — that does not mean that it’s automatically permitted.)

With regard to the broader issue you bring up, that only applies if one believes there might be grounds for something to be assur. When I made a chocolate cake for the first time, I didn’t go to ask my rav if it was mattur. When I first began keeping a journal, I didn’t ask my rav if it was muttar. When I first became a ba’al kriah, I didn’t ask my rav if it was muttar. And so on.

On the other hand, when you encounter areas where there are greater shades of gray, then, by all means, one should ask a LOR.

The Wolf

Can I ask you a question, why do people start every question with ”Can I ask you a question”?

Whenever anyone does that to me, I answer “You just did.”

The Wolf

You’re still within the edit window time to edit out that sig. 🙂

Not any more.

The Wolf

Wolf: That sig is probably an Issur of Ona’as D’varim, even if you were actually wronged by him in that way in the past.

Thank you.

See, I don’t mind if people take me to task on things I actually say. It’s when people attribute arguments and positions to me that I never take that bothers me — and he has done it to me — repeatedly.

Nonetheless, I will take your criticism to heart and hereby ask for his forgiveness for it.

The Wolf