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deiyezooger
“They didnt accuse anyone of being like the Taliban, all they said was its ironic that those who try to tell them how to do things accuse THEM for being Taliban.”
Exactly, as I said. They are implying that their critics are like the Taliban (or else it wouldn’t be ironic, like you said). I was careful with my Lashon to only say imply and not accuse.
It wasn’t a statement about women in general
This newspaper deliberately photoshopped both women out, admitting it was a result of their being female.
Clearly different.
again not everyone is fluent in yiddish. I think is “leshitaso” not being able to relate to other people who are different.
I think it’s ironic that in defense of how preposterous it is that they were compared to the taliban, they countered with a ridiculous counterclaim implying their critics are the taliban.
Again maybe I’m ignorant; I’m aware of honor killings in general but aside from one, exceptional case in distant memory, I don’t remember beheadings. Inaccuracies are what caused these issues in the first place people…
Actually, most articles I’ve read on the subject explain the orthodox approach/philosophy, even if they don’t agree with it.
However, even with your claim, it’s still only speech. Not forcing anybody to do anything with the threat of physical punishment.
oh gosh okay I’m back in
Deiyezooger
cute point, but when someone is holding a DISCUSSION “defending women’s rights”, it seems entirely the opposite of the Taliban’s means of going about things.
The only “standards” they are being “forced” to uphold, are basic journalistic standards of reporting a story accurately, without any “biases”.
As mentioned and agreed to by I think everyone here, the newspaper is entitled to their own standards, however, they must be more mindful of how they will be perceived ie. will more people have unfavorable views of orthodox Jews? (Whether or not it is justified or not is irrelevant)
I’m done with this
health
if they caused a misconception of how they perceive women, doesn’t that make them wrong?
The issue isn’t that it violated the first amendment, it’s how we made ourselves be perceived to the general public in an unflattering light.
dy
it’s not that people would think that there are no powerful women; it’s that they think that we are suppressing that fact, as a reflection of our views on women.
less is more…
Mod 80
I’m MO, I always help clean up…
BSD
I think you are missing my point. While I appreciate the value of modesty, I understand there are those who do not, and there those who just have a different definition of modesty than I do.
Therefore, we cannot expect people to just not be offended when dealing with a sensitive issue such as women’s rights, because we felt we had a good reason to do as we did. Not everyone appreciates our reasoning.
saying it’s a clear distinction does not make it one. My point is that it’s not so pashut… the fact that the whitehouse attached limitations most likely means that there are limitations; maybe. I was responding to your decisive claim that there is no cause for any of this backlash. It’s simply not so simple.
well what sort of further hishtadlus is available to you?
deiyezooger
really, where do you get this stuff from. Was there a copyright on the original photo? (find a source or evidence to support your claim)
Also, making fun of an individual is NOT by any stretch of the imagination the same as implying that 51% of the world’s population are second class citizens/not entitled to equal rights.
DY
fair enough, so the Washington post retracts that copyrights were infringed upon, doesn’t mean that it was legal to manipulate (see our earlier discussion relating to other sensitive materials of the whitehouse ie. classified documents, and our inability to make conclusions)
in any case, a blogger assertion quoted by a different blog is by no means a firm legal ruling on the matter.
dy and pacman
Obviously this is not so clear cut.
Again, I would challenge the first bloggers observation by asking him to explain classified documents.
deiyezooger
that’s a horse of another color. Only the gullible would believe the picture of Palin with the ak47 to be accurate and serious, however, the pic of the situation room did not seem/have intention to be like a joke/satirical in any way.
I guess we are looking at different articles because the article I looked at says no such thing. It’s by Brad Hirschfield.
I posted bits and pieces of the rest of the article where they address how it was against the terms of distribution, but the mods didn’t let it through. (Please let me know what was wrong with the post please mods, so I know not to do it again)
And “Patent Lawyer” is the generic name for Lawyers that deal with issues such as copyrights and patents.
Way to go with the straw man argument though.
I once had a non-religious person excitedly show me his tattoos that he got on his honeymoon in Israel, one of which said “Da lifnei mi atah omed”
exactly, and it’s always better to yield to the side of caution, and since neither of us are patent lawyers, and I’ll assume pac-man isn’t either, none of us are entitled to draw definitive conclusions, as pac-man has done.
I’m glad we agree
dy
because it was a government document/photo that had stipulations and limitations regarding its distribution attached to it.
Truck driver possibly? Heimish companies would probably love a frum driver they can trust. I hear it’s decent pay and he can listen to torah tapes in the car, and he wouldn’t have to deal with a goyish work environment. I think the licensing is a few thousand dollars but it’s relatively quick and cheaper than going to college.
Also maybe driving a carpool for people? To and from wherever, school etc? During the summer people may need someone to fetch their children from upstate for a simcha or something?
You should have lots of hatzlocho and hashgocho pratis
you didn’t need to put that through. or this one. just saying thanksss
hope I entertain you guys…
thanks mods
gavra
Ive heard that a system like that already exists in lakewood, where someone can date out of bein hazmanim if the girl is older than x (either 20 or 22)
But that doesn’t fix the support issue
DY
Read it again.
I wasn’t saying the picture was classified, I was comparing it to that category of documents that has special restrictions as per the government, and cannot be compared, as Pacman suggests, so readily with a standard copyright.
While true, this is a “discussion” forum and everyone can basically do what they want, I commend Wolf for pointing this out. Hopefully, people will follow this practice and we’ll see an increase in the level of intelligence and meaningfulness in the discussions and conversations that take place. And G-d willing, there will be an end to the all too common usage of gross generalizations and blanket statements by posters who never met anybody who didn’t think exactly like them.
I’m not a copyright lawyer, but I feel safe assuming the issue was two pronged.
1) What Pac-Man so kindly cut and pasted for us addresses COPYRIGHTS for U.S. Government works, such as bills and the like. This photo, as the terms of distribution stipulated, “may not be manipulated in any way”, would most likely relate closely to the category of “classified” documents, in that there are special circumstances and guidelines that must be adhered too. I doubt pac-man would claim “classified” documents are also subject to freedom of distribution and manipulation.
2) As I pointed out above and DY so kindly reiterated, when operating in a secular society, one must be mindful of the messages our actions send to the general public and what their reactions will be. Otherwise, we run the risk of having a chillul Hashem occur C”V.
Side note which is a different issue but relates here, Rav Nebenzhal of the Old City of Jerusalem holds that on an airplane one should daven in his seat instead of standing in the back of the isle as part of a minyan, since it disturbs the flight attendants and the passengers around them who may not share their enthusiasm.
msseeker
so you advocate burkas for jewish women as well? … You can’t allow your husband or any man to be exposed to the face of a woman… ?
That’s all very nice
but usually a newspaper that presents itself as such prints things (pictures, articles etc) as they actually were/are…
The paper was misleading, and didn’t even acknowledge it in the original print, thereby misrepresenting the actual situation in the “situation room”
Editing out women, especially in this society, is something that ought to be done with tact, so things like this don’t happen. It can easily be taken as a slight against Clinton and the other woman who was there, as well as women in general.
That’s a pretty big deal.
msseeker
when did a significant number of muslims decapitate women?
MSSEEKER
The JPOST article itself says they got it from a blogger, go read it.
Pacman
Apparently, considering the amount of news sources reporting the incident and the newspaper’s own apology to the Whitehouse, there WAS something wrong with it. I’m not sure where you looked to think otherwise.
BSD — “The paper is making an honest attempt to be true to journalism,”
That means that if they publish a picture, it should be a real, unedited picture, unless otherwise noted. That’s called accuracy.
Not everyone agrees that everything the “ultra orthodox” do is 100% kosher, pardon the pun. Not everyone considers religion at all, let alone those practices that go against cultural values, a “beautiful way of life.”
Wolf,
at a certain point it becomes moot… the kid doesn’t seem to be open to any answers; he wanted to vent. He’s done that, so let it go; he’s his parents’ problem.
As a 3rd party I’m telling you what I wish I was told on here sometimes when I don’t know when to just walk away without wasting any more of my time.
True, however it is at least expected to make note that the photo was doctored and there were the two women there.
HIE
how long you have been on “Yeshiva World” is irrelevant. I’m not sure why you brought that up.
What matters is the thoroughness of your life experience, of which you have none. It is not a personal attack; it’s just a fact that should be considered before you call into question the validity of Wolf’s statements.
You’ll have to take my word for it (gavra) but my responses aren’t being allowed through and I’m not sure why
How about one generation from now? I only used great great grandchildren because that was the example given by the poster… but the system is already on the brink of collapsing, what about the next generation.
And avada Hashem has enough money, the question is whether or not He will spend it.
HIE
you’re exposing yourself further as a high school student and not an adult.
It is silly to assume WolfishMusings hasnt spoken to people in other professionals as well.
Regardless, working in one profession and being in the professional world for years makes him much more qualified to be worthy of an opinion on the subject, than you, my dear boy.
Rav Schechter once said in basically these words “To have an opinion you need to be entitled to an opinion, and not everyone is entitled to an opinion…”
popa,
forgive me for saying this but if one cares about their children, then shouldn’t they care about their children’s children, and so on? Isn’t a big part of Yiddishkeit the continuation of our kind? While this in a a large part means providing for torah study, we should also bear in mind the changes to society’s normalities and their ramifications ie. if we are propagating an unsustainable system?
Nobody is saying not to support limud torah, only addressing the problem with the attitude that one can expect all of these opportunities without a little effort and sacrifice.
monsey review-
But how many kollel members are supporting other kollel members? While going into the working world is no guarantee, it is at least an attempt at becoming “self sufficient”, and offers someone the possibility of paying their bills and providing for their families and communities (quotations because everything is from Hashem–but hishtadlus is expected)
gavra at work-
yes, we can generalize and say those living in the projects are content with their situation. However, nobody outside of the projects thinks very highly of people who live in the projects, and many have much angst against them, considering them parasites and “good for nothings”. IMHO that is not a role that is fitting of Am Yisroel as it would be a CHILLUL HASHEM and not an example of being Or Lagoyim, whether or not torah study is involved.
Again, not saying to stop kollel or systems for learning torah, only to change the attitude and to emphasize the importance of planning for adequate yet sustainable alternatives.
HIE
how is your hebrew dik duk? Is it important to learn dikduk well?
Also, what is your long-term plan for supporting a family, just wondering? What kind of job do you expect to have?
Yom Ha’atzmaut is Tuesday if I’m not mistaken
Assuming this system was in place 40 years ago (not my area of expertise), the job market has changed, as has the standard/cost of living. To get a decent paying job capable of supporting a family, one needs formal schooling these days, usually grad school as well. The system also needs to support more people now, because forty years ago (here’s where the high school math comes in), which may be two generations ago for some families, society had that (x amount of children times the number of families, possibly squared) many less children/people to employ and support.
Moderator,
What did I miss? Pacman is an inappropriate name?
btw, is that allowed, like, legally (sending his info to those people/how did you know who his mashgiach is?)?
Pacman alerted us to another user who was abusing the site. That is who I was talking about.
HIE
well how is your hebrew dik duk? Is it important to learn dikduk well?
Also, what is your long-term plan for supporting a family, just wondering? What kind of job do you expect to have?
I’d really love to break down HIE’s post line by line and explain all the grammatical errors… but I have finals coming up in a week, so I think spending a few days on that would be bittul zman.
I second Walton
Definitely bring a good hiking bag. I had a Kal Gav I bought for about 135 shekel; I think it was 55 liters.
Lots of girls from Seminary were doing Yam Liyam when I was. They all did really well; except they underpacked food so I was feeding them the whole time. Undereating when on a strenuous hike is no way to lose weight…
And a towel is probably a good idea too
Anybody going should be sure they know how to read a map or they should get a tourguide
I’ve done Yam li’Yam… which is overlaps a lot (in the North)
things to bring:
sunscreen
changes of underwear and socks
things to snack on while you hike
raingear (I went pesach time two years ago… really good story if you’re interested)
stuff to start a fire and heat up water
Goldbond/babywipes
sandals
FLASHLIGHT (and flares if you want to be extra safe… all part of that story)
ace bandages/wraps
You don’t need a tent (if you’re a tiny bit adventurous- I didnt have one)
if i think of anything else I’ll let you know
In.
Zohar says it is/will bring guyva to wear them out. And that’s what my Rabbeim emphasized to me in yeshiva.