The Ted Riley, Natan Levy, Lakewood Fiasco Continues

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natan levy.jpg(MP3, & Documets Can Be Found Below) The shocking story which YWN broke last week, regarding an individual who was living as a religious Jew in the heart of Lakewood, NJ and currently detained by Federal Authorities, is getting bigger by the day.

Besides for the many ‘rumors’ which are being spread around, it is now being reported that Mr. Ted Riley Floyd (AKA: Natan Levi) is actually a “Ger Tzedek”. As a matter-of-fact, a Rabbi Pinchas Aloof has come forward, and attested that he did in fact perform Geirus (conversions) on both Mr. and Mrs. Floyd. Although there is no doubt that this Rabbi did perform some type of conversion on them, it seems highly questionable as to how Kosher the conversion is.

On Monday evening, Rabbi Aloof appeared on the Zev Brenner Radio Show in New York, and publicly stated that he studied with the Floyd’s for two years – at his Congregation Ahavat Achim in Wichita, Kansas – prior to doing the conversions. Excerpts of this interview can be heard by clicking HERE. The rabbi stated that Mr. Floyd – who went by the name Natan Levi told him in the year 2000, that he wanted to become Jewish, with the idea that he was going to go on “Aliya” to Israel. Rabbi Aloof claims that he told Mr. Floyd that being that he was making Aliya to Israel, it would be best to do the conversion in the Holy Land. Mr. Floyd claimed that he was in contact with Israeli Consulate in Kansas City, and for whatever reasons he needed to do the conversion in the United States; to which Rabbi Aloof agreed.

The conversion was then done “Mikva Al Pi Din, Bais Din” etc. Shortly after, (in 2002), the Floyd family disappeared, leaving the Rabbi and his congregation to believe that they were in Israel – up until hearing the recent news that Mr. Floyd was detained by the authorities.

Rabbi Aloof said that what is very confusing is that, if the Floyd’s already had legitimate Geirus performed on them, why didn’t they just show the papers upon their arrival in Lakewood?

When asked what type of congregation it was, Rabbi Aloof says that his congregation is an “Orthodox Shul dating back to 1902, with a Shul, and a Mikva, etc. The years go by, and the Mechitza is removed, men sit on one side, women sit on the other side, and mixed seating is allowed in the center – as I’ve found in many Orthodox Shuls. That’s Golus. This is where we live today”, Rabbi Aloof told Zev Brenner.

“What puzzles me, is that if he’s in trouble in his hometown, why wouldn’t he contact the Rabbi”? Zev Brenner asked. “Maybe he knows that I retired, although he might be in contact with the Shul – which I’ll inquire about”.

“Do you know where he got the name Levy from, and did you give him the name Avraham ben Ahraham”, the Rabbi was asked. “I do not have the papers with me, and it’s going back a few years, but I believe the name given to Mr Floyd was Natan ben Avraham Avinu”, he answered. When asked how about the fact that he’s been claiming to be a Levy in Shul for the past few years, the Rabbi sounded shocked. “No way. As we know, a convert comes in as a Yisroel!”

The radio host then took a phone call from a “Yosef in Brooklyn”, who asked the following questions to the Rabbi:

Yosef in Brooklyn: “Were you once the Rabbi at Congregation Anshei Shalom in Delray-Beach Florida?”

Rabbi Aloof: “Yes I was. Going back maybe 20 years ago”.

Yosef in Brooklyn: “Did Mr. Floyd have a Bris Mila?”

Rabbi Aloof: “I believe he was already circumcised, and all we did was a ‘Hatofas Dam Bris’ on him”.

Yosef in Brooklyn: “Who were these other Rabbonim involved? You said that you had a Bais Din perform the Geirus on Mr. Floyd, who were these Rabbis?”

Rabbi Aloof: “They were members of the congregation. ‘People Yodeiya Sefer’.

Yosef in Brooklyn: “Can you give us the names of the people”?

Rabbi Aloof: “These are two people – elders of the congregation, whom we rely on.”

Yosef in Brooklyn: “I’m sitting here in Brooklyn, and it’s hard to imagine that this is a real Geirus, because he didn’t seem too sincere to me. This was done with ulterior motives possibly, and that would invalidate the entire Geirus. I’ve also noticed (from doing research on-line) that you have been the Rabbi in Conservative Shuls, which makes the whole thing very suspect to me that, since they are known to try and bring in members…..”

Rabbi Aloof: “Someone once asked me, what kind of Rabbi are you? My answer to him was: I am an Orthodox Rabbi that has to serve in a Conservative Congregation with Reformed members. And this is what we are faced with today. Not in Brooklyn, but in the ‘real-world’.

In his application to the wonderful “Partners In Torah” organization. Mr Floyd/Levy wrote that he grew up at Chabad in Bakersfield”. After doing some research, YWN learned that Chabad in Bakersfield was opened in 2002 [Click HERE to see Lubavitch.com on Bakersfield, CA].

As is obvious from reading & listening to the above interview and the court documents (which can be seen by clicking HERE), it is obvious that this man does not seem to be a “Ger Tzedek” according to Orthodox standards. Regarding a possible Geirus which was done ‘Lichumra’ on Mrs. Floyd in Lakewood in the past few years, YWN has been told by credible sources that the Rov which did the conversion is not sure if it is Kosher – since this evidence is all coming out now. YWN is currently working on gathering additional photos, and other documents questioning this mans motives. What is also troubling is that Mr. Floyd still remains in custody – for crimes unknown. It is still possible, that further evidence will come along stating the contrary to what was concluded from the above information. If that does happen, you can be sure that YWN will cover the story accurately – as we have been until now.

It must be noted that the Sephardic community in Lakewood where Mr Levy/Floyd was a member, was never aware that he was possibly a Ger. All the community knew was that he was a Baal Teshuva – as was evident from the Partners In Torah documents. Never in their wildest dreams did they expect to end up with this fiasco on their hands.

[Please keep in mind that this federal investigation continues, and the point of this posting is just to give the reader an insight into the various pieces of information gathered by YWN.]




105 COMMENTS

  1. One of the Lakewood posters who claimed to know him, posted previously that he had said he was descended from marranos so he didn’t need giyur.
    The guy was obviously running from a dark past. I voye to posul the geirus. Funny thing will really be if in the end it comes out that he was in the witness protection program and that was he was really a Jew, masquerading as a goy, in order to convert and hide his Jew status as part of the WPP. April fools.

  2. matzahlocaol101:
    Well then, it’s a good thing that in Yiddishkeit we don’t follow the ‘vote’ to decide halachic issues. Let the rabbonim decide this man’s status and the implications for the community that he lived in.

  3. Can someone elucidate on the Geirus done by a Rov in Lakewood on the wife?

    On what basis could a geirus done k’halacha by a 100% kosher Rov (in Lakewood) be now cast in doubt?

    Were her children born after her Lakewood geirus?

  4. Raboisai, please can we use care when commenting? We do not know the facts and can not be somech on what we have to say lashon hara about people. Let us all wait and see, calmly.

    btw, I know someone who is an Orthodox Rabbi in a reform/conserv. shul, maybe its not uncommon.

  5. the question remains WHY would he do this?/ until we know we have to be don lacaf zechus 9 or maybe not if hes a goy! wow crazy stuff!

  6. Have been following this story and my feeling is that we should hold judgement till the whole story comes out. It seems like there are rabbonim that are dealing with this and it is not responsible for us to give judgement where we do not know the facts. If it turns out that they are jewish or that maybe the wife is and the husband fooled his wife for whatever reason, we will all have to answer to the ribono shel olam on the vicious accusation and loshon horo that was said about her. Also it seems like this became a fight between different web sites as one seems like they are trying to prove that she/they are yidden and the other website trying to prove that they are real goyim. I have heard that mrs. Levy is very hurt by the stories that are being said about her. It also seems that mrs. Levy went through a second geirus under the auspices of a reputible beis din. That does not mean that mr. Levy is jewish. We should let the beis din decide. Slanderous comments can only hurt.

  7. a few questions on the legitimacy of his conversion:

    he fooled everyone right at the time of his conversion even the rabbi who made his conversion,
    showing insincerity.

    the rabbi that performed his conversion was a rabbi in a conservative shul placing in doubt if he is qualified to be a hedyot for gerut.

  8. … Well I never thought in my wildest dreams I’d see him smoking a joint at 12:30 at night in the middle of our ocmplex either- at this point nothing is shocking anymore.

  9. good morning,
    wow this story is only getting better and better. with all the jokes that came out with this scandal, if he is a real jew i think we’ll all need to ask mechilah from him!!!

  10. YW wrote “Mr. Floyd still remains in custody – for crimes unknown”

    If you read the court papers you can see he was indited for “making a false statement on application for passport”, which on itself is not a big crime and didn’t require arrest, he was just notified to appear in court. It seems like the case against him got more serious after he appeared in court and for some reason confessed that he had a false identity which he took out mortgages on it. This crime is much more serious

  11. You Gotta love YWN reporting! the scope of wich you will not find with the largest reporting agencies in the world.
    I SAY YWN Editor for president!!!

  12. there is no reason a person has to advertise he is a ger tzedek. maybe he wanted to be accepted in the community. if I remember correctly there is a gemara that states one of the amoroim told a person with a mum (but not a psul) in his yicus to go to a place where he is unknown to get married. To me this looks like a personal issue that is being sensationalized by the “Jewish Blog Media” almost like lehavdil the NY Post would do when something catches their attention.

  13. #4 “Raboisai, please can we use care when commenting? We do not know the facts and can not be somech on what we have to say lashon hara about people. Let us all wait and see, calmly.”

    Now you all wake up???? If this is a case that warrants judging favorably,where was being dan lekaf zechus untill now?!? How come I did not see this post last time?

  14. Every new report sounds more strange than the one before. Reports on other news sites contradict these and then each other. The whole story sounds more strange than the actual story. Is this fiction or a bad try at story-telling? Is this an April ‘fools’ hoax?Where is his kesubah? His and her parents’? Were their birth certificates checked? Lets have some real facts,please!

  15. I don’t know Rabbi Aloof, his qualifications, or his level of observance. On the other hand, I don;t know that just the facts you’ve presented would be enough to halachically disqualify a geirus in which he was involved; this is an issue that requires poskim, not bloggers.

    Lying and making misrepresentations to Partners-in-Torah don’t mitigate a geirus. Though the implication here seems to be that they covered up being geirim because they knew their geirus was substandard, it could well be that they were afraid to admit being converts for cultural and societal reasons, and they felt they’d be more readily accepted as Baalei Teshuvah.

    In any case, casting aspersions on a legitimate giyur (which this may turn out to be) is a very serious matter.

    Mr. Floyd does not presently seem to pose any spiritual or physiscal threat to anyone. So might I suggest that we hold our pens and tongues until qualified poskim review the entire matter and determine the status of the parties.

  16. YWN is the ONLY on line frum news service. Everything else is just a blog.

    That said why are we discussing this in public. Until things are sorted out its none of our business. He may be a Jew and people may need to ask for mechila for pretty much making it impossible for him to face his friends. Let’s close this discussion and pull down the tread until we get the facts.
    I excpect only the highest standards from YWN.

  17. I THINK THIS WHOLE THING STINKS. A BLOG FIGHTING TO PRESERVE THEIR ‘INTEGRITY’AS ‘NEWS SOURCES’ (AND OF COURSE PARNASSA,) AND THE LIVES OF PERHAPS NUMEROUS ORTHODOX JEWS GETTING CAUGHT IN THE GRIND. NOTWIHTSTANDING THE FACT TAHT CBS NEWS AND OTHER SECULAR MEDIA OUTLETS FOR WHATEVER IDOTIC REASON SEEM TO CULL THEIR NEWS STORIES FROM THIS BANTER AND SPREAD THE CHILULU HASHEM FURTHER. WAKE UP PEOPLE, THIS IS PROBABLY ONE OF THE MOST WIDESPREAD ACTS OF EITHER LASHON HARA, MOTZEI SHEM RA, ONAAS DEVARIM, AND FOR SURE CHILUL HASHEM IN HUNDREDS OF YEARS. CAN ANYONE- I MEAN ANYONE RECALL A SINGEL GOOD THING THAT CAME OUT OF PUBLICIZING THIS INFORMATION? FOR THE KLAL? FOR A YACHID?

    EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT JEWISH, THE CHILUL HASHEM THAT HAS ARISEN OVERIDES ALL. I AM A FAN OF YESHIVA WORLD, BUT THIS WAS A DUMB THING TO POST. WHAT BENEFIT HAS THERE BEEN TO THE PUBLIC?

  18. ***FIRST SEDER NEWSFLASH*** 

    The Gemara in Yevomus 46b clearly says (and this is how we Pasken), that a person claiming to be a ger, must bring two eidim (witnesses) forward that can say that he is a ger.

    Until then, he has no ne’emonus, and he is a goy.

    YW, ignore these commentators. This man is a clearly a goy.

    This is not lashon hara at all. In fact he is a muchzik that he is a goy. There is no din of being dan lechaf zechus!

  19. #1- To hereinlakewood, yes there is and was toeles, As a matter of a fact, Rav Mattisyahu Solomon spoke about this last night. Perhaps you might be interested in knowing what he said. Since you are claiming to be in Lakewood, it should not be that difficult.

    The toeles is, that our children will chas veshalom not marry goyim, we wont be drinking yayin nesech in shul and a slew of other serious dioraisos.

    But that does not seem like toeles to you……

    #2- And to Art, stop corrupting the Halacha and Torah. You wrote “On the other hand, I don;t know that just the facts you’ve presented would be enough to halachically disqualify a geirus in which he was involved;”

    No sir.

    This man needs to prove his Jewishness to us with two eidim, and that everything was done al pi halacha. We don’t need to assist him. As a matter of fact, he is a 100% goy until that is done.

  20. For the entertainment value…..Assume Rabbi Aloof is an Orthodox Rabbi serving in a conservative congregation, he claims the other two dayanim were yodeia sefer from that congregation. What is their status as Dayanim. Do they davan there for their livlihood too?

  21. Until we know the true facts and all the facts we must remain quiet and not spread any shmootz. This is up to the Rabbanim not US.

  22. Such a giur would, at best, be highly questionable, so I suspect.

    Well, the bottom line is, we don’t know very much here.

    Yet, I must also note, it would be very hard for someone who is not fully committed to Yiddishkeit to keep up a chareidi life for years. He must have been serious about his being Jewish. Perhaps he was embarassed about his being a convert with a not-so-great conversion, and shame prevented him from going to a proper Lakewood beis din and asking for a prior giur (lechumra). Can we blame him for that? Maybe it’s davka the fact that we are sometimes so suspicious about gerim, that made him feel uncomfortable?

    And it could very well be that he was indeed some kind of criminal (we don’t know what – though if it’s just lying on a passport application form, that sounds pretty minor to me), and he might indeed have come to Lakewood trying to escape the authorities, then it would seem that he has indeed become sincerely interested in Yiddishkeit and he might have done quite a bit of teshuvoh on his violations of American law.

    I’m also just speculating here…

    By the way, ‘Lamdan Gomur’, according to you, a ma’aseh beis din signed by three dayonim does not have any validity? If a person shows up to you with a ma’aseh beis din signed by, let’s say, Rav Eliashiv or Rav Nissim Karelitz or Rav Moshe Feinstein, you’ll tell him he is a goy until he brings 2 eidim?

  23. I am sorry Rabbi Aloof but that is not golus. I lived in a community some 6 hours from Wichita (it was also galus!) but they had and continue to have a number of ORTHODOX shuls where there is SEPARATE seating etc.

    Dont sit there krechtzing to all who are listening that it was galus “outside of Brooklyn.” I have seen galus “outside of Brooklyn” as you kept referring to it and there is BH PLENTY of authentic FRUMKEIT out there. You Rabbi Aloof unfortunately did not find it!

  24. Still we must remember that if he is a true Ger-Tzedek we are playing with a “LAV in the Torah”. (V’Ger Lo Soneh V’lo Silchotzeno {Shemos 22:20}) We are machmir with other Issurei Derabonon we should definitely be careful here, for this is an Issur De’orayso”.

  25. To Daniel Breslauer:

    No if a person shows up with a paper from a recognized bais din we have that as “eydus” However if a person shows up and says he is a ger (mind you this guy didn’t even do that) the burden on proof is on him and either he produces a document which shows his gerious was l’halacha or 2 eidim we know to vouch for him. Since this didn’t happen he is considered a goy gmur. This are not my words but what the gemarah says yevemous 47A you can look it up. We don’t need any poskim here it is a clear halacha that any 15 year old should know. Any one commenting to the contrary is a plain “am haaratz”

  26. TO LAMDUM GOMUR: EVEN IF WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS NOT LASHON HARAH GOMUR, I THINK RAV MATISYAHU SALOMON AND TEH DAYANIM OF LAKEWOOOD WOULD BE ABLE TO GET THE MESSAGE OUT JUST AS EFFECTIVELY WITHOUT IT BEING POSTED ON FRUM BLOGS AND WITHOUT THE CHILUL HASHEM THAT OCCURED THROUGHOUT THE WORLD AND THE MASS MEDIA.

    IF IT IS INDEED LTOELLES, THE TOELLES COULD HAVE BEEN ACCOMPLISHED IN A FAR LESS CONSPICUOUS AND HARMFULL FASHION. SEE SEFER CHAFETX CHAIM ON TOELLES.

  27. to 25
    If he is a ger may be a sofeik.

    He has a chazakah of being a goy.

    We know that he is a Shakran, by calling himself a Levy and saying that he is NOT A GER.

    What are the Rabbonim from Lakewood saying about this whole mess?

  28. here is a dan l’kaf zechus that I think could really be the case- I have a lot of friends and relatives in Lakewood and they all complain about how hard it is to get their kids into school there. A family recently moved from an out of town community to lakewood and were afraid to let anyone know that they were BT because they were scared their kids wouldn’t get accepted into the school they wanted and the neighbors would be scared to let their kids play with them so they didn’t tell a soul. Maybe its an unjustifiable fear as I know some wonderful Baalei tishuva in Lakewood who did not experience these problems. Its possible that Mr. Levi had the same fears and felt he needed to hide it.I’m trying to be dan l’kaf zechus and maybe we all should. I’m not saying its right to hide info but I know people who are just so scared about their kids not getting into school. I don’t know what could be done about that but it definitely leads to people hiding info.

  29. S/O posted that Mrs. Levy/Floyed is saddened by the blogs…

    Can you elaborate, how does she know? How do you know? Do you know where she is now? Can she maybe explain the whole story? What does she say about her husband’s incarcenation?

  30. Is there really any תועלת from shmoozing and being מבטל תןרה for this sad story. We know nothing. It’s all speculation. We are either being מוציא שם רע or מבטל תורה. So let’s just do what we have to do LEARN DAVEN and be a gutte yid.
    Are we all what we proclaim ourselves to be? Are we some of us not אחד בפה ואחד בלב? The רבש”ע is sending us a message here. Let’s all stop the charade and be real and אמת. Not judging others and curbing the לשון הרע. The קנאות should start in your heart before you can spew forth about others. Yes the משגיח can say what he needs to in order to bring the public under control, but who are we to talk? Are we on that מדריגה to slander, to speculate?
    חזק ונתחזק!!
    מי שאמר לעולמו די יאמר לצרותינו די
    יה”ר שתזכו לקבל פני משיח צדקינו בב”א

  31. Mr Levi passed himself off as a levy. All geyrim come in as yisroels. If he did not know then he should have asked.Since when does yidiskite stand on shame or embaressment. As a ger there are alot of things he wouldn’t know and the thing to do would be ask….
    Lakewood schools are not as hard to get into as they once were. There are many new small schools for the younger grades and there are even new high schools,so the schooling situation is not a reason why mr levi should have lied. Seems to me he got alot of help in everything from money to schooling to mortagages. he had more help then many other people of need.
    Mr levi also said he was jewish of middle eastern extraction. How did he then become a mid western goy? or vice versa? WAKE UP PEOPLE.

  32. To hereinlakewood:
    What are you talking about?
    There is no – I repeat no – lashon harah on a goy, no “ldan lechaf zechus”!
    What chilul hashem is there in exposing a fraud and a phony? There are great ramifications in being a ger can he marry a kohen?

    That is my belief why he “made” himself into a levi so that his kids would be able to marry kohanim.

    This lying fake was a goy, stop with all this nonsense. Lets stop with this misplaced rachmanus. What about rachmanos for all the people he conned? The Rabbis in Lakewood had no idea this was even going on. With we believe this Rabbi Aloof he started his lying charade in 2000 and it was all premeditated.

    We have to run out of town these charlatans who are coming to corrupt us not feel sorry for them.

  33. I’m guessing this guy figured the best way to hide out would be to assume a Jewish identity, and duped Partners-in-Torah and this “Conservadox Rabbi” into giving him enough information so he could move into a Jewish community and be able to blend in. People simply chalked up his “weirdnesses” to him not knowing things b/c he was a ger/Ba’al teshuva. Perhaps he (or his wife) had lived adjacent to a jewish community in the past and knew enough to pretend so they could dupe P.I.T/”Rabbi” into believing they were genuine.

    Either way, we – the Jewish community in general and our mosdos – were used for illegal purposes without us even knowing about it.

    I do wonder what this guy was running from. I assume we shall find out.

  34. Living in lakewood I think that most people would side with “hereinlakewood” and with “art”. Contrary to popular belief most people are not interested in the hock and would rather leave such earth shattering issues to be dealt by the rabbonim. Having people comment on a website about someone’s claim to be jewish or not is totally wrong. As I wrote before Mrs. Levy is hurt by every slanderous comment said about her. I think that “lamdan gamur” is one of those lakewood hockers that are looking for something to do. GO BACK TO THE BEIS MEDRASH AND LEARN THE HALOCHOS PERTAINING TO “BEIN ADAM LECHAVEIRO” ETC.
    Even if it turns out that they are not jewish, I believe that mrs. Levy will go through a third geirus to clear her name. The people that know her, say that she is sincere about her yiddishkeit, a yiddishe momma who wants to see her children grow up to be ehrliche yiddin. Yes, she may have made some mistakes but that does not “pasel” her. Regarding Mr. Levy, I don’t know, there are a lot of unanswered questions and until the beis din will be able to reach him and interrogate him we won’t know the real story. Women are usually going to just do what the husband tells them to, especially a women who did not have a jewish background and she may have been coerced into this marriage and just doing the things that she has allegedly did. Ask her neighbors, people were very close to her and appreciated the advances that she made in yiddishkeit. Put yourself in her position, she gave up everything her childhood, friends, hometown and family to come and live in the worlds largest torah community. Let us not be fast to judge and “al todin es chaveircha ad shetagia lemekomo” can also apply to a guy and especially over here where it is possible that she is a jew.

  35. I just reveiwed the court documents (provided by YW) It seems that the real Netaniel Levi lived in Ca. It all could fit in to say that his grandparents were jewish in Bakersfield,Ca. like he told Partners in Torah (see above), he was jewish and ba’al tshuva as he told Lakewood, and he got access to the name from his grandfather through family info. Maybe when he strayed from his roots he got the nam eFloyed, therefore when he ‘converted’ he chose Levi, like his paternal grandfather, and so was oleh Levi as a true Levi. He might have wanted to convert to do teshuva, not knowing thatit isn’t neccesary.

    As far as the other ‘proofs’ the goverment has against the guy, they seem like minor discrepencys of fraud: value in his house, income, debt (inter di tisch, hecher di tisch) situations, big deal, but enough to be held without bail. ):

    Lets wait and see how this will play out…

  36. Lamdan Gamur, your lomdus has gotten to you. According to your theory we should expose all “heimishe” con artist that mislead and steal and con people on a daily basis. How many dis honest frum business people are there out there, should we too publicize their where abouts and personal information? Or because they are heimish they are given a pass?

  37. To yachtzel,

    She is reading the different websites that are commenting on this. She is with family members and I have personally been in touch with her. She is cooperating with the rabbonim in lakewood and no, she does not have an explaination for all the things that her husband allegedly did. She is in the dark almost as much as we are. Yes, she has made some mistakes in her life, but I believe that she is not totally at fault.

  38. just so happens to be that the school his daughter was in would not have accepted her as the syrian minhag is not to accept geirim no matter what, and the school she was in was makpid on that.

  39. Why are there so many “guest poskim” here?

    The talk of two eidim here is pure nonsense. We know there was a geirus, nobody is contesting that, the only questions that could be raised are the kabolas mitzvos and the dayonim.

    On the kabbolas mitzvos we have this guy, Yosef from Brooklyn, another guest posek, quoted above, courtesy of Zev Brenner:

    “Yosef in Brooklyn: “I’m sitting here in Brooklyn, and it’s hard to imagine that this is a real Geirus, because he didn’t seem too sincere to me. This was done with ulterior motives possibly, and that would invalidate the entire Geirus…”

    This is shtusim… we are not mekabel lechatchila but the geirus is certainly valid bedieved as long as there was kabolas mitzvos… and the halocho is that once there was a geirus EVEN IF YOU WOULD KNOW FOR CERTAIN OF AN ULTERIOR MOTIVE you have to be choshesh for the geirus until you know for certain that there was no kabolas mitzvos…

    Then there are are those here who are trying to mefakfek in the dayonim. As long as they are maaminim, shomrei torah umitzvos then the geirus is good bedieved. The fact that a person was a Rabbi in a Conservative temple doesn’t make his geirus posul id he’s a maamin and shomer torah umitzvos. If you don’t know then the geirus is a sofek.

    When the geirus is a sofek you HAVE to be choshesh for it an so you have a problem of all the issurei Torah that apply to geirim.

    Now there seem to be many who are convinced that people would fake keeping Torah uMitzvos to escape authorities etc. This is foolish. There have been millions of fugitives from justice but there is not one documented case of anyone going to such extremes of keeping Torah and Mitzvos to such an extent just to avoid capture. The idea of missionaries is similarly ludicrous as are all the other boich svoros…

    Besides for the personal legal history and present legal predicament of this couple this story IS as YWN puts it a fiasco… a fiasco created by rumor-mongering, jumping to conclusions without facts and YWN, sloppy reporting…

  40. Check out court documents posted by YW – last line of Detention-Order-3 and first line of Detention-Order-4 where ‘whatever his name is’ says if need be he can live in Kansas at his in-laws….
    Any info on his in-laws?

    PS Editor, how was Purim?

  41. Lamdan Gomur- You have a big EGO- couldn’t think of another sign in name?, but you are right! Also he might not be Jewish, even if was sincere, even if he had a kosher geiros- there are geirim in Lakewood who are normal and go by their goyishe names. From his weird behavior (eg. getting aliyos as a Levi) he might be insane- something Rabbi Aloof could not know; if he was insane before becoming a Jew it is unlikely it is a good geiros. To become a Ger you need Kabbolas Mitzvos, a “Shoytah” can’t do that because he is Putter from Mitzvos!

  42. To lamdan gomur the din of needing two eidim is only by a safek tosfos clearly says this is only where he has a chazaka of being a goy by the time he came to Lakewood he was already being shomer shabbos. Additionaly this rabbi from Kansas is giving eidus that he converted. Also you don’t need a rabbi for geirus all you need is three people shomer shabbos. And to yoseph in brooklyn even is someone does geirus against his will the shulchan oruch paskens its good.

  43. #1- To hereinlakewood, yes there is and was toeles, As a matter of a fact, Rav Mattisyahu Solomon spoke about this last night. Perhaps you might be interested in knowing what he said. Since you are claiming to be in Lakewood, it should not be that difficult.

    I am sure Rabbi Salomon is very glad yeshivaworld and the other blogs are invovled in helping him and the other Rabbonim take care of the tzibbur.

    As a matter of fact, I wonder how klal yisroel got along with making sure they dont have yaayin nesech in the house and that their kids dont play with the floyds without all this hype. I mean, especially those in israel and the UK, and of course the secular jews across america who heard the story on CBS, your right, major toelles.

  44. hereinlakewood – stop screaming Loshon HaRa and continuing to read the posts. (here we go again) If you truly believe that this is L’H as you declared, you have NO right to be reading here. reading L’H is the same as speaking and hearing it. For the rest of us, who understand that this is not L’H, we can continue to stay here and read and comment.

  45. To yosef in brooklyn,

    What’s your beef? You sounded like an interrogater last night. Who were you calling on behalf? You did not sound too smart.

  46. hereinlakewood, please grow up.

    perhaps you can tell us what the mashgiach of lakewood, harav yehuda jacobs was thinking when he went onto tv camera last week?

    if there is no toeles, then he is an oisvorf just like everyone else who says this guy is a goy.

    he obviously felt that there was a need to do what he did.

    period.
    end of story.

  47. ONE MAJOR QUESTION.

    WHO DID HIS KEDUSHIN? DOES ANYONE KNOW?
    HE NEEDS TO DO A MARRIGE ONCE AGAIN AFTER HE BECOMES A GER.

    THIS STORY IS WACKO!

    THE GUY IS CLEARLY A NON-JEW.

    HIS WIFE IS QUESTIONABLE, BUT HIM? KOLR GOY.

  48. Ive just heard from a person who knew him very well, that it is a fact that he is a goy.

    There is major evidenece which be released to the public very soon.

    all five of the lakewood guys, sticking up for the nutcase, are in for a big, fat, yummy surprise.

  49. where are the wife and kid? Kind of feel sorry for the little boy who most likely is not in school any longer and lost all his friends.

  50. I have just confirmed that when Floyd was registering his children in Yeshiva in Lakewood NJ, the principle suspected that he was a “ger”.

    When asked if he was, Mr Floyd answered “no”.

    This guy is just a pathalogical liar.

  51. Some good jews from lakewood have shipped her food. Now that we know that mrs. Levy is a possible giyores, we have a special mitzva to help her. Also, there are plenty of OU products and fruits and vegetables in the USA.

  52. To lamdan gomur it might be worth to look in shulchan oruch once in a while yoreh deah siman 268 s” yud tha halacha is only if he comes as a goy he needs eidem however if he was noheg like a yid he is neeman ayin shom, kudos to #45

  53. #55-its a 6 yr. old girl-not boy. but still the same, not in school and lost her friends. Nebach. I wonder how her mother will explain to her that they arent keeping Shabbos, kosher, etc. anymore.

  54. Glatkup:

    I was calling on behalf of the millions of yidden who were killed on kidush hashem by this goys relatives. If we are to believe this R’ Aloof even according to him since his members are reform jews, and he used two of those members on the beis din, so this whole process was a farce. I don’t like Rabbis in conservative and in reform shuls. For that matter R’ Moshe Feinstein zatazl hated them also you can check all his teshovous regarding these rabbis. Bringing in suspect yidden into klal yisroel to dilute our precious heritage is an unforgivable sin. This Rabbi had no experience with making gerim and should have referred him to a real beis din. There are alot of troubling things attributable to R’ Aloof on the internet that a frum orthdox person has room for grave concern. If you have issue with what I said, say it, don’t call me not very smart which is quite lacking in middos tovos. Yes I was interrogating him and that is what a real beis din does to potential converts. Do you have a problem with that halacha too? This Rabbi Aloof couldn’t give one straight answer to were he studied Israel? Baltimore? very broad statements to saying that this is an orthodox shul which obviously it isn’t. Go to their website they call it traditional come on. The conservative and reform movements have wrecked travesty upon our nation lets not treat them with kid gloves. Yes we should try to be mekarav the people because they don’t know better, but their leaders are “chotoh imechtah es harabim” “vain laham chelek lolom habah”. Lets reserve our love for real yidden whether frum or not but not for goyim and people out to destroy us.

    yosef in brooklyn

  55. Poshut Pshat and 45;

    Wrong that is if he comes and says he is a geir and is noheg like a yid we believe him and even that depends on EY or CL. We are clearly in CL if you didn’t notice. However here is a totally different case he came as an original yid now that we find out he wasn’t and he lied he has no namanus so he definitely has to bring eideim. Come on were did you learn? They don’t call me lamdan gomur for nothing!

  56. From Rabbi Eli Teitelbaum’s writtings yz”b

    Experience proves that nearly anyone can be taken for a ride, Perhaps Nach tells us the story of how the Givonim fooled all of Klal Yisroel in order to teach us this important lesson. No one is infallible!

  57. Sorry for not writing you with the proper respect, and I understand your feeling of arvus that you have for klal yisroel,but the way you came across was just despicable. Besides, how can you say that, if it turns out that she did a proper geirus in a beis din in lakewood, would you also say this to a ger, we have a mitzva of “veahafta es hager” not to remind a ger of their past. Don’t be such a “kanoii”.

  58. To comment on #53- I have seen and heard much of the proof that he is a goy, and yes, if what ive heard is made public then everyone is in for it…

  59. Lamdan Gomur,
    You have no facts, you are no posek, and you confuse the fact that you call yourself Lamdan Gomur (which is obvious to everyone) with other people calling you Lamdan Gomur (which is highly unlikely).

    But that’s not the only thing you are confused about. YWN which just may know more about the story than you wrote,

    “Although there is no doubt that this Rabbi did perform some type of conversion on them”

    If it can be proven by eidim (or any other kosher raya and birrur) that there was some type of conversion done by this Rabbi then we have to be choshesh for the geirus until we have a raya that it’s no good. There is no need at all for eidus on the kashrus of any other aspect of the geirus. All your self-congratulatory posts will not change that.

    So why don’t you speak first to a posek about this case or better still go hock about something else about which you’ll be less obviously wrong…

  60. 63- I doubt she had a geirus in lakewood- wouldn’t we know about it? That’s shouldn’t be too hard to find out. and anyways, I’m under the impression that their cover would have been blown when they got their daughter into school, since they dont accept geyrim and if she did a geyrus in lakewood, they wouldnt have dared say she was always Jewish.

  61. What is a despicable tone when talking to someone he did such a terrible thing? Who was I talking to the lady or some “Rabbi” who obviously even according to you did a terrible thing because this lady supposedly went for another gerus. Now her children are either still goyim, or if born after her supposedly new gerus a goy for a father. I ask you what did klal yisroel need this for?

  62. JUST TO ANSWER UP WHY RABBI JACOBS WAS INVOVLED WITH CBS THE MATTER IS VERY CLEAR. A HORRENDOUS STORY, WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT BE TRUE WAS LEAKED TO THE PUBLIC FOR NO REASON. CBS PICKED UP ON IT, AND CHAPED RABBI JACOBS WHO I AM ALMOST CERTAIN HAD NO INTEREST IN HAVING HIS FACE PASTERES ACROSS THE MEDIA. I ASK AGAIN- EVEN IFIT IS ALL ONE HUNDRED PERCENT TRUE, THIS COULD HAVE BEEN DEALT WITH THROUGH RABBINIC CHANNELS. NOT INTERNET BLOGS AND HOCKERS.

  63. I would love to disclose however I am not at liberty to discuss. Keep in mind, the kehila did not act hastily in the least sense. This was researched by members of the kehila since the original arrest date of feb. 21. Enough info was gathered and substantiated the claim bli shum safek of what “netan levy” really is.

  64. ok i have a bunch of problems with this story

    1) whats wrong with being a ger why did he have to say he was a BT? Arnt geyrim more choshuv?

    2)why did he claim 2 be a levy?

    3)isnt his first name supposed to avraham if he is a ger

    with this “conversion” i have a billion questions but let me start with these

    1) why couldnt he become a ger in e”y if thats were he claimed he was going? he prob couldnt get a passport they woulda found him out much faster

    2) he believes he had a bris? he should KNOW

    3) Why wont he say the 2 aidems names? sounds fishy 2 me

    4)if mr levy gave off the impresion of being such a lamden wouldnt he want a proper geyrus

    5)whyd he lie 2 partners in torah

    6) hes obvisoly not to smart be4 u lie u should make sure its somewhat correct like why did he pick Chabad in Bakersfield of all chabads to say he grew up in if it didnt start till 2002

    i have more questions but i cant think of them right now

    1 more thing

    WHAT IS MR. LEVY/FLOYD RUNNING AWAY FROM? WHAT HORRIBLE CRIMES DID HE COMMIT?

  65. lkwdman101, that’s not fair to the klal. Everyone wants to know the truth and put this all behind us. If there’s someone out there with the facts, expecially that he’s a goi, (and no problem of lashon harah) then why be so secretive?

  66. R’ yachtzel,

    I don’t think this public forum is a place for this info. Besides, I think the syrian community has an interest to bury this guy. They feel that he has caused them much harm and they as a rule do not welcome geirim into their community. The thing that they don’t realize is that by doing this they are also harming his wife who was also a victim of him. What the lakewood beis din ought to be doing is trying to verify that the wife was not in on his shinanigins (I believe that rabbi zafrani can attest that she was an “isha k’shaira” even though there are a lot of questions that need to be answered) and then decide how to deal with her.

  67. I would like to clarify something very important.

    Harav Yehuda Jacobs did not talk to CBS for any of the above mentioned reasons.

    HE WAS LEARNING IN BAIS ELIYAHU WHEN SOMEONE CAME TO TELL HIM THAT THERE IS A REPORTER IN THE BAIS MEDRASH (IN THE MIDDLE OF SECOND SEDER). HE WENT OVER TO THE REPORTER AND IN THE PROCCES OF GETTING HIM TO LEAVE THE BAIS MEDRASH THE GUY GOT A FEW WORDS ON CAMERA.

    TO ALL THOSE HERE COMMENTING AND TO THE PUBLICATION IN LAKEWOOD THAT PUT THAT PICTURE AND ERONIOUS CAPTION, YOU ARE TAKING THIS WHOLE THING OUT OF CONTEXT, AND IT IS A BIG CHUTZPA.

  68. From Social Security Death Records, there is only one Natan Levy

    NATAN LEVY Born 27 Jun 1934
    Died 29 Jul 2002 (V)
    Last residence: 79912 (El Paso, El Paso, TX)

  69. There are so many facts that we don’t know about and why do we need to wait for another 300 comments before this is closed? Every one is entitled to their opinions and people have the right to disagree. However, the back and forth name calling, and negativity is counter productive. Could we just give it a rest and could the moderator please close it down?

  70. I researched this story since a friend from Lakewood told me about it. Of course his story including 9/11 terrorists, and all other types ridiculous claims.

    I am truly shocked about how many supposedly chashuve people from Lakewood haven’t learned any laws of being l’dan kav zchus, nor seem to be familiar with the works of Chofetz Chaim.

    At this stage, there is no proof of ANYTHING! We don’t KNOW he’s a goy; we don’t KNOW his wife’s a goy; we don’t KNOW what crimes he committed. It is all surmising.

    What we do know is that there is no-one amongst us who hasn’t sinned at some stage in their lives, and most of us sin on a daily basis. Yes, this guy has made mistakes – it seems that irrespective of all else, he lived his life (both in public and private) as a Torah Yid. Do any of us know his reasoning?

    Are we allowed to judge him? Isn’t that why Lakewood has Rabbonim?

  71. #83- Mrs floyd was not welcome into our kehila as a geyores. This is part of the reason that when she called up numerous times last week to different members of our kehila including the rebbe telling them she wanted to come back- everyone told her besides for the fact that she lived a lie KNOWINGLY, and caused a huge michshol to the rabim, shes also a geyores and we have a huge takana on our wall in the shul (if anyone would like to check it out feel free) that does not allow converts into our kehila, so mimah nafshach shes out- we just had no idea she was a geyores until recently.

  72. Hello. With all the toeles that you can think of, it pays to sit tight and wait, patiently, for some real info, instead of writing negative comments now!

    Al kol rega verega she’adam chosem piv…

    Meanwhile, hi to Uncle Bob and Tzaly.

  73. #83: Because she said she was just a BT and never let it slip that she supposedly is a geyoris or maybe a goy. Her daughter would have never been accepted to that school, as they do NOT accept gerim by the Syrians.

  74. For all those posting comments about Rabbi Aloof and his statements about the conversion, his synagogue, etc:

    B”H the tide has turned – the world is becoming more yeshivish, the level of shmiras hamitzvos in America is on the rise… but we have to understand that it wasn’t always this way! Even in large cities in the Midwest and beyond, it is quite obvious that until pretty recently, “Conservadox” was the rule. For most of Rabbi Aloof’s career (I assume, since he is retired now), nobody would have a “havamina” to run a fully Orthodox, kosher mechitza and all shul in a place like Kansas. Yes, B”H there were some exceptions to this rule, but just talk to anyone aged 40+ who grew up “out-of-town”…

    In addition, the complexities surrounding geirus and who should be accepted are beyond anything one could expect. I had a job once where I was privy to the details of applicants for conversion in communities far from NY. Rabbonim all over the world are struggling to come together and resolve the issues at hand. We cannot sit here at our computers and pass judgement.

    Most importantly: We still don’t know the full story about Mr. Floyd/Levy and whether hilchos lashon hara apply to him. However, Rabbi Aloof certainly is a Yid, and we can’t say lashon hara about him!

  75. An honest question:
    WHY doesn’t the Syrian community accept gairim? I’m sure there is a good reason/mesorah, and I’d like to know more. It seems a little strange..

  76. 88, I’m over 40 so I know of other such congregations, some which saw tremendous peiros, but we’re in 2008 now. Kind of reminds me of those Japanese people allegedly found in the jungle still fighting WWII a generation later.

  77. #91:
    He is very serious.
    Tremendous gedolim of previous generations have established the ban.

    Quick trivia fact:
    what percentage of american jewish jewry intermarries?
    and what percentage of syrian sephardic american jewry intermarries? The former is about 50% the latter less than 1% baruch hashem.

  78. #89 and #91 I’d love to get into it, but I think it’s a bit off the topic which seems to be dying down as it is until further news is brought forth.

  79. pashuteh yid:

    Apparently statistics Baruch Hashem (cold hard #s which dont lie) has reduced intermarriage in our illustrious community. When you accept converts it allows people to be closer to non jews. For example lets say a guy converts, and now a nice jewish girl marries him. During one of sheva brachot one of her sisters sees one of this guys brothers who happened to show up and takes a liking to him…i dont know. Im not a geunie. All I know is american jewry is intermarrying at unfathomable rates. In our community its not like that. No one even looks at a non jew bc we have the fence of not accepting gerim even…

    Besides we dont want goyishe genes mixing with ours. How many ger tzedek do you know? I know 0. I very happily will reject the 1 or 2 you know in order that no one in my community should intermarry.

  80. Pashuteh yid,
    If you would like to know the background to why we dont accept converts it is as follows:

    When our forefathers came to america in the early to mid 1900s , the great rabbis of that generation looked around and saw a spiritual wasteland. Unfortunately many of our ashkenazi brethren had lost all sense of religion upon arriving in a corrupt and immoral society which we live in today and intermarried. The chief rabbi of our community with 100% support from all of the rabinate enacted an edict (following one in Argentina) banning conversion in our community. A convert cannot marry into our community, they cannot pray in our synagogues, they cannot be buried in the communities cemetary, they cannot have any services performed for them by the rabbis of our community. Do we hate them? not at all, we wish them the best. We just wont marry with them.

  81. This is what I heard about the Syrian ban on geirim.

    The Syrian community had a problem. Many young people took non-Jews to marry, and rather than intermarrying, converted the spouse to please their parents and community. This trend resulted in many insincere conversions and a general weakening of the community. In order to save the community from disappearing into intermarriage, the edict was made and teh community was saved.

    Many Syrians claim teh ban was issued to preserve their pristine community because apparently they don;t want to admit there had been a problem serious enough to require this edict. I’m repeating the info here so that nobody should look down on geirim in other communities – the edict was not because there was a problem with sincere converts, but with Syrian Jews borderline intermarrying.

  82. Lamdan Gomur: In #68 you wrote: “ow her children are either still goyim, or if born after her supposedly new gerus a goy for a father. I ask you what did klal yisroel need this for?”

    Do you know how many 100% Jews, whose fathers aren’t Jewish, you have hurt with these words. So what if their father isn’t Jewish?

    A Jew whose father isn’t Jewish is no less a Jew than you or me. How can you ask what klal yisroel needed this for? What did klal yisroel need you to be born for? You’re no more Jewish than a jew with a goy for a father, so if you can ask it about them, I can ask it about you.

    And if a Jew has a goy for a father, does that make it okay for you to hurt their feelings? I happen to know a couple of baalei teshuvah whose fathers are not Jewish, and they are very fine, kind, sincere people. One of them I know very closely, and she has told me that for her one of the biggest challenges of being frum is not the mitzvos, which come easily to her – but the cruelty of people like you. She once told me that if she hadn’t been lucky enough to learn Torah at Neve Yerushalayim, the cruelty of the people would have turned her away, and she is able to stay frum because of the love for Torah she developed at neve.

    Well, you can add yourself to the list pf people who make people like her cry in her pillow at night. Mazel tov.

  83. Fortunately, not all of us are cruel. Anyone have an idea how those of us outside Lakewood can help Netan Levi’s wife and children (and maybe Netan himself? Also, those of you who are in touch with them can tell them that there are frum people who support them and are davening for them.

  84. ONe of the reasons of the galus is to accept geirim. but as long as the ashkenazim will accept geirim , the sphardim can be yotzei with the ashkenazim or vuz vuzim

  85. An addition to #100:
    Mr.”lomdun Gomur” – Did you ever hear of “V’Ahavta Es HaGer, Ki Gairim Hayisem” – you must love the ger, since you were once gairim (in Mitzrayim)- Devarim 10:19. See what the Sefer HaChinuch says on this mitzvah!
    Rereading your post #68, “what did Klal yisroel need this for”, perhaps you meant the whole sad ma’aseh, and all its ramifications, NOT davka gairim.
    If so, you might want to express yourself more clearly. this is a very delicate subject!

  86. I just wonder….on the remote chance that there was a kosher geirus and that the Levis really intend to live as shomrei Torah umitzvos, how would they feel after reading some of the comments on this website? I wonder if it would make them change their minds and decide to drop everything.

  87. All I have details on is the concrete proof that mr floyd is in fact a goy, and if any conversion of any sort was performed on him, it was not a sincere conversion, nor did he have any sort of desire being jewish. In our kehila, this is not a debatable issue in the least sense. We were told by the rabbi’s involved Including “Ike lewis” mentioned i nthe asbury park press to keep our mouths shut until further notice.

    Regarding Mrs Levy, I know her well. she lived across the street from me for 2 years before moving. She spoke in my house once, and was very friendly with all members of our kehila. Having known she knew he was a goy all along leaves us feeling somewhat betrayed- she did in fact lie to us- but deep down, you can just tell by the way she spoke and conducted herself that she loved the lakewood life. Having been involved in this case from the very begining- I truly concur with those mentioning it is our job to judge HER lekaf zchus and do what we can to help her. I hope that bH she is able to overcome this bump i nthe road and b’H be able to continue to serve Hashem the way she was the past 3 years in Lakewood.

  88. #99
    Please refer to post #92. Apparently it wasnt only the syrians who had a problem. They were the only ones who acted and took care of it though.

  89. By the way to all those out there who want to think this criminal is a ger tzedek…a ger comes into the jewish community as a “yisrael”. Why did he pose as a “levi”. This guy is no ger tzedek. He is a goy and therefore does not have to be judged lekaf zechut. Maybe the wife as lkwdman said , but the guy definitely not.

  90. 96. pashuteh yid: Apparently statistics Baruch Hashem (cold hard #s which dont lie) has reduced intermarriage in our illustrious community. When you accept converts it allows people to be closer to non jews. For example lets say a guy converts, and now a nice jewish girl marries him. During one of sheva brachot one of her sisters sees one of this guys brothers who happened to show up and takes a liking to him…i dont know. Im not a geunie. All I know is american jewry is intermarrying at unfathomable rates. In our community its not like that. No one even looks at a non jew bc we have the fence of not accepting gerim even… Besides we dont want goyishe genes mixing with ours. How many ger tzedek do you know? I know 0. I very happily will reject the 1 or 2 you know in order that no one in my community should intermarry.
    Comment by kollelman1 — April 2, 2008 @ 1:41 pm

    The syrian jews are in America for a much shorter time. The rate of intermarriage of ashkenazi jews in the early 1900’s was probably equal to syrians now. We aren’t allowed to make a ger regret his geirus- the Torah allows it for a reason right? I’m sure the talmidei chachamim that introduced this ban were great tzadikim, but Moshe Rabeinu allowed coverts into the klal. They always did have special halochos (they lived outside the machane) but they were oleh regel just the same. Their daughters were allowed to marry any jew.

  91. As a non-Syrian who davens at Syrian shuls, I find their takana offensive, and neged Torah. That being said, there is a uniqueness in their community that allows the takanah to work. From top to bottom there is a family closeness that causes concern, even in the least observant that they do not want to be out of the community. If there is no hope that at least one could convert the shiktzah or sheigetz one is dating, then one would be less likely to go down that avenue. The son of the rabbi who runs the school where Mrs. Jane Doe sent her daughter told me “it is not because we are better, but addaraba, we are more in need of such drastic measures.”