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Israeli Independence Day: Neturei Karta style











The picture says it all. [More photos can be viewed by clicking HERE.]

112 Responses

  1. What can you say? Do these infidels really need to try so hard to make klal yisrrael look bad? No need to supply an answer.

  2. Besides, what happened to the whole concept of NOT being allowed to add
    a day of mourning to the Jewish calender? Isn’t T’BAV MEANT FOR AL SAD DAYS??????

    These people seem to do whats good fro them!

  3. I’m not sure what this picture shows. It looks to like like a fairly normal protest against the Medinah. No palestinian flags, no keffiyas, no terrorists. Why are you lumping everything under the “Neturei Karta”. The Neturei Karta are a bunch of Arab loving Rodfim, who should be banned from our midst. These guys look like a fairly normal looking group of Satmar/Toldos Ahron chassidim protesting the continued Chillul Hashem that is the State of Israel.

    Unless there are some other pictures you are no showing us, I don’t see a problem with any of these pictures you’ve posted.

  4. The heading should read:
    Neturei Karta Proudly wearing sackcloth’s
    in thier mourning over the state of Israel.

  5. I think I finally “chapped” why the zionists don’t say tachanun on Yom Haatzamot: It says there “Shomer Israel” – Every they believe (deep inside) that the Ribbono Shel Olam is not guarding the State of Israel – therefore they omit tachanun 🙂 🙂 🙂

  6. Did anyone else notice that the sackcloth being worn in these photos require Tzitzis?

    Isn’t it an Issur D’Orisa, to wear a 4 cornered Beged without? That must trump whatever statement they are trying to make by protesting.

    (Yes, I did see that some of them had the corners rounded off, but most in the photos did not.)

  7. I fast on Yom Haatzamot like it is Tisha B’Av. The tzadikim such as the Satmar Rav, R’ Amram Blau, and the Lubavitcher Rebbe also fasted.

  8. kitzur-

    Your attemp at wit has failed you. Stick to “chapping.” BTW, are you a voting citizen of Eretz Yisrael? If not, then seems the stones you are casting are simply dispersions.


    Can you verify that please, it doesnt sound very reasonable,,,,,,

    I think that post was alluding to the fact that you write ‘the picture says its all’ it sounds a bit sarcastic,,,

  10. YW – The caption: “The picture says it all” as well as the comparison to the bunch of kooks who call themselves Neturei Karta, would leave us all the believe that you have a problem with the picture.

    I think from the comments posted, most of us had the same assumption.

    If that’s not what you meant, we would all love to hear otherwise!

    YW, on another note, keep up the great work!

  11. MD

    G’ kop,

    In all your wisdom, can you please answer my original post? Why the double standard? Isnt T’bav the ONLY day for mourning?? It sure looks like theya re sitting on the floor saying ‘kinos’ ,,,

  12. some of these clowns are better actors than others. some really look like they are sad. others look like they are bored and one fellow seems to be smiling for the camera.

    if you want to fast, go fast. if you want to mourn, go mourm — it is not a public fast and mourning day so keep it private.

    This is all just a publicity stunt

    b/t/w the caption should have included: “the demonstration was paid for (either directly or indirectly) and supported by the p.a.”

  13. nameless – Regaring your first point, you don’t get it. There is a problem adding days of mourning for historical events during our long golus. For that we have Tisha B’Av.

    To cry out in mourning and protest to a current situation (last I checked the State of Israel does still exist), has no relevance to the prior discussions.

    When the medina one day no longer exists, we will all mourn the tragedy that was, on Tisha B’Av.

    Let’s all hope that soon we will celebrate Tisha B’Av as a Yom Tov and not fast.

  14. nameless: well said!

    Gemoro Kup and Ged: I really do not understand what is the point. To me, being anti the medina, makes no sense. The medina paved the roads they were demonstrating on, provides the water and electricity they use, and created an economy that even the old yishuv benefits from. It is like demonstrating against the bricks of your own home.
    We can talk all day against the medina, but in the end of that day what is our practical allternative. There are millions of Jews in E”Y. What do we do with them? I am literally begging for an answer.

    The way I see it: There is zionism, and there is the state of Israel. Any historian who is not affiliated with religious zionism will confirm that zionism was an ideological movement meant to create a new Jew. Therefore, like the reform (and other movements) it is anti Torah. Being anti Torah, we are obligated to oppose it. The state of Israel was founded by the zionists. But it is not Zionist. It is a home. A brick can not be Jewish nor zionist. It can only be a brick. There are plenty of secular israelis who go to the army and celebrate independance day, yet are ideologically “post zionist” ( whatever that means ). Because they seperate between the state and zionism.

    I believe this is the depth behind the famous analogy of Rav Shach, when asked how he can permit accepting money from the state. He replied that when a wagon of apples flips in the market, the apples role all over, and everyone grabs them. So you can also take one. Essentially he was seperating between the neutral apples and the zionist wagon. Once the apples leave the wagon they are permitted for use.

    I am loyal to the Torah, and I therefore strongly oppose Zionism. I also live in Israel, and love my country. I love my country which provides me with free health care, security (sort of ), an airport, highways, forests, beautiful cities, Yeshivos, transportation, housing projects, economic opportunities, free education (charedi as well), etc. The list is so endless. I would have to be meshuga to demonstrate against all this.

    To all the Kanoim out there: I saw in the sefer by HaRav Yosef E. Henkin zt”l, that writes that Reb Elchonon asked the Chofetz Chaim why he is not opposing the zionists. The Chofetz Chaim asked him why should he oppose them. Reb Elchonon answered that they are rebelling against the nations. To Which the Chofetz Chaim answered that Kllal Yisroel is also a nation and we are prohibited from rebelling against her as well!

  15. Why can’t we respect their opinion,just like we were supposed to respect the opinion of those who support the medina?!

  16. Looks like they are celebrating 9Av early this year in Israel. Do not know anyone who even wears sackcloths on 9av.
    Probably after hearing the Haman decree from PM of Iran, time to dress in sackcloths. Were those from potatoes sold for Pesach at a discount in the supersol Israel store? Any shatnetz problem here.

  17. I learned that the reason for wearing ‘sak’, a garment of goat’s hair, is to be m’tza’er oneself as an impetus to teshuva. Goat’s hair is very uncomfortable. What connection does this have to donning burlap capes for a media event?

  18. Never judge a book by its cover. These “Hasidic” people are certainly the lowest of the lowest. They are an example of what happens when people become too extreme. I am sure there is a special place reserved in Gehenom for all of them. The only reason why they get so much attention is due to rampant Anti-Semitism throughout the World. Jew haters love plastering these losers on the front page. What we must learn from all of this is that extremism is dangerous, and should be avoided. Follow the suggestion of the Rambam and take the middle road.

    Edited by Site Moderation Panel

  19. why do their signs have arabic words on them?
    they are hoping channel 7 in teheran shows their protest and their good friends back home can read what the signs say

  20. R’ Amram Blau would be rolling in his grave if he saw what the NEW N.K. has destroyed a belief that many in the Orthodox Jewish World hold dear. R’ Blau stood for conviction, and wouldn’t take money from the Medina or terrorists such as Arafat, Nassralla, or the Hitler of Iran. The NEW N.K. incomes come from these terrorist leaders, and “AL PI Halacha, They are Chayiv Misa”, according to a great ANTI-ZIONIST RABBI in New York.

  21. These are the people who help that menuval Iranian Hitler deny the holocaust. Now they are mourning that the state of israel exists.

    Whether or not they are right or wrong in this case is not even an issue.

  22. Mr. Fox what happened to your self-righteous calls to love the sinner but hate the sin. Is that reserved only for people who say things about apikorsim? Maybe only when the people saying it disagree with you? Or maybe it’s only for when it is only a figment of your imagination. You too urbmase.

  23. Ich bin a naar, please help.

    Does everyone here agree that NK is over the top? I would hope so.

    Will everyone here agree on zionism vs. anti-zionism before moshiach comes? No chance.

    Now. If these are indeed NK, then let’s all pile on. They’ve crossed all lines of normalcy and decency and goodness. I’m under the impression that they are in chairem. I’ve been told that we can be m’chaven for them in v’lamalshinim. If these are Satmar or other kosher anti-Zionists who are against the medina, then let’s be respectful of the other side of the story (if it’s the other side for you). Moshe Fox, do you permit hatred and ill speech towards the anti-Zionist in your home/shul/life? I don’t expect you to agree, but name calling? Again, if these Jews are NK, I’m with you. But if not . . .

    If you do answer this and these are NK, please let me know if you think it mutar to speak ill of Satmar and other anti-Zionists? I look forward to your response.

    As an aside, I once put it to a Chabad bochur that according to the Rebbe’s teachings it should be incumbant upon Lubavichers to respect/love those who were against Chabad. Those Jews from all of those yeshivas believe that Chabad has crossed a line of legitimate orthodoxy and that it is mutar (perhaps even a mitzvah) to speak badly of their movement. They believe that it is Torah. He was confused. He didn’t get it. It got me a complaint from his boss (the shaliach himself) who claimed that I said that it is mutar to speak lashon hara about Chabad. I admit to wondering, but I said no such thing.

  24. Bamkac
    YOUR doing a ‘wriggling out routin,e’ .I asked you to please post some proof that the Lubavitcher Rebbe fasted on yom HAATZMAUOT,,,,,,if you dont have it, retract what you say,,,,,

    Moshe Fox,

    I am surprised to see you here, I would think it would be beneath your diginity to give these ”know nothings’ ANY recognition whatsoever!

    This whole thing is jsut laughable in any case, The oictures, the fact that they are on the PA’s payroll, the banner etc. etc;

  25. nameless: The Lubavitch Rebbes since the advent of zionism have traditionally been BIG znti-zionists. Look at their writings.

    I think I finally figured out why YW has so many NK/Zionist issue posts. It gets the most attention, gets the most heat, gets the most posts, and brings the most advertising dollars!

  26. Well then read the other comments. Fox’x allsusion to the colours of the banner. the fact that they just happened to be on P.A’s payroll. The different expressions on their faces when you view the pictures…. .I think you should laugh too!!!


    why do you give these guys so much coverage? they’re a tiny minority numbering at most a few hundred. giving them free publicity gives the impression to NK & the world that they are a significant group in the jewish community. nk is for nk & nk only.

    I and i’m sure many of your other readeres will agree, do not want to read about them anymore. they make their events for the sole reason to gather attenion. If we don’t give them attention, they will hopefully cease their NK activities. exception to the rule would be in the event that everyone else is covering, we don’t wan’t out of loop.

  28. Chaim Yankle
    I noticed right away it was missing tzitzis.
    But since when are non-jews mechuyav in tzitzis?! it isn`t one of the sheva mitzvos bnei noach.
    ( not that these shkotzim keep the 7 mitzvos of bnei noasch since one of them is shfichas domim. if Helping the enemies is enough to call them a rodef than they do shfichas domim. I guess instead they go by the covenet of omar.)

  29. I wrote something that didn’t get posted. Since I didn’t offend anyone, I’ll guess it’s because I questioned whether or not these are the n.k. Dearest editor, could you (or anyone) please verify that these are the real McCoy’s (no offense meant to the McCoy’s).

    I’d also like to see less of n.k., but at least we get a topic that all Jews with brains and/or hearts agree on. You really do have to be brainless, heartless, and come to think of it, soulless to be supportive of these guys.

    But is it them?

  30. I may not support the views of the current israeli government, but these people are a walking chillul H’shem.
    the Ribono Shel Olam is saving a special hot place for these people.

  31. These NK guys are, I believe, very misguided in their actions, though they are very much entitled to their opinion on Zionism.

    In other words, to be misabeil on the medina is incorrect lihalacha, and on their own “second 9 Av” is, in my limited knowledge, incorrect.

    Their sentiment behind it is, however, reasonable, if not a bit exaggerated. Zionism has caused enormous tzara for Klal Yisrael and, certainly according to NK poskim, has prolonged our Galus. That’s pretty bad news and seems to put the day in a similar realm as a 9 Av. Again, it’s wrong, but understand the point they’re making.

    Consorting with the reshaim is, in my humble opinion, mischaber larasha, and also incorrect. But, again, their point is reasonable – Zionism is no less immune to having done dirty deeds than is any country and, by showing solidarity with Israel’s enemies, they are acknowledging that, regardless of how wrong the tactic may be.

    May Hashem redeem us all bikarov bimheira viyameinu, Amein.

  32. Hey Editor,

    What’s the deal? I know that you have the power of delete, but I’m truly just trying to substantiate that these are nk. I’m not the only one to ask in this thread. It’s a crucial question. If it’s so obvious fill us in. Please. Really.

    As was obvious from my two deleted comments (or will it be three now), I don’t pretend that these lunies are real. But I’ll defend (along with a bunch of my comrades here) the right of Satmar or Rav Kookniks to protest against the medina. This doesn’t show anything that a good ol’ anti-Zionist would be bothered by.

    I am not sophisticated when it comes to Israeli icons. Does the black flag give them away? Do you know some of them from previous outings? It would be quicker for you to respond (and nicer) than to delete my question for the third time. I don’t care if you need to insult me in doing this. If it makes you happy, call me some name and then tell me . . . please. . .


  33. urbmase, yes I am a citizen of Israel (born & raised there), and IY”H my family is making aliyah in just a few short months.

  34. does bet shemesh have a street sweeper? Now is the time to bring it out and clean up the garbage in the street, carry it away, & dump it in the arab neighborhood. We’ll see how well they dispose of these great friends of theirs.

  35. “shmeel Says:

    April 25th, 2007 at 3:48 pm
    Why can’t we respect their opinion,just like we were supposed to respect the opinion of those who support the medina?! ”

    Shmeel: Their “opinion” — which they have crossed the globe and trumpeted to the 4 (goyishe) corners of the earth — is that the murderous, kidnapping, blood-thirsty palestinians and their world islamic cronies are correct in denying the Jews the right to live in eretz yisroel. The yishmaeli sharatzim hate us so much they celebrate — and they become tzaddikim in their communities — when they seek out and murder or — better — massacre Jews ANYWHERE in the world. Even when they murder Goyim they’re geonim if they say they’re doing it because of the jews. If they murder them in subways — they get told by the mayors and other dignitaries that it’s too bad the Jews have made a glorious, flowering landscape in ha’aretz (b’ezras Hashem) while the decrepit Palestinians are still suffering in their cinder-block desert 60 years later and it’s all the Jews’ fault. And these so-called chassidish clowns are doing what???? And you are wondering, duh, why can’t we “just respect their opinion”?

    The answer to your question is: because they are even more insane than their hate-poisoned arabic chums. They are flattering the king’s executioner. It would be like a bunch of Jews snivelling up to Hitler & Co. because, really, he had some good points about Jews, but, hey, Herr Fuhrer, WE”RE not like those Jews. We’re on YOUR side!”

    Opinions are not the problem. Most of the readers of this website do not support the mehaleich or the views of the Israeli gov’t. We HATE the fact that the name of Hashem is so absent from their hearts and minds of the people who are supposed to be leading the medina there. Nonetheless, we love Yidden, we love ha’aretz — it’s the place Hashem gave to us as a nachala, and no one has ever cried for the land/worked the land/died for the land as we have. This is how the Aibishter made the briah, and how He made us. And these media stooges get WAY too much coverage, Way too much blogging, too, because of people like you who don’t have the guts to take a stand against the enemies of innocent Jews and their sheker and just say “get lost.”

    sheker and

  36. Qodush;

    The Lubavitcher Rebbe never wanted to go to Israel because he felt that once he is there he SHOULD NOT RETURN BACK TO CH’L…..

    AGAIN……evidence that he fasted please…….

  37. To Gemoro Kup and Ged, I posted a question to you earlier. I am really interested in your answer. Do you think you will have the chance to give me one? I would really appreciate it.

    Matzaman, Bamkac, and Flatbush Boby: Feel free to answer it as well.

  38. “al Kamtza bar Kamtza charva beis ha mikdash”; the reason for the destruction of the first beis ha mikdash was sinas chinam, baseless hatred. The seforim kedoshim say that ahavas yisroel is mainly a mitzvah which we are commanded to keep with those who are different from us, in minhagim, personality,etc. Those who are exactly like us, even though we are also commanded to have ahavas yisroel towards them as well, this is not the ikar mitvah.

    On this yom ha atzmaaut in beit shemesh there was an interesting contrast. On the one hand, Ha Gaon ha Rav Yehoshua Rosenberger shlita of the Badatz was speaking at a kinus (in the area where this picture was taken) about all the problems of the medina and how we have to do teshuva: exactly at the same moment on the other side of town in rama alef (the more american community) there were fireworks.

    My Rebbe’s father z”tl used to sit in aveilus on yom haatmaut not because of the creation of the medina, but because of all of the brachos levatala from yidden who were saying hallel. He also didn’t do this publicly, because of the potential for Chillul Hashem.

    I really don’t think we have much to celebrate in the modern secular israeli state of Ehud Olmert. The country is on the verge of a war with Syria, Hizbullah, and maybe even Iran. Hundreds of thousands of Russian goyim were allowed in to the country. On the other hand we do gain many benefits from the Israeli government.

    So a little aveilus about the secular zionist nightmare is not such a bad thing for a yid, however we learn from my Rebbe’s father that we should do it in private……….

  39. כִּי אֵין לָבוֹא אֶל-שַׁעַר הַמֶּלֶךְ, בִּלְבוּשׁ שָׂק
    It’s wrong to wear sackcloth in the King’s Palace…

  40. e lov hai yoma koma ‘yosi bishuk’ ikka: well said to all zionist sympathisers yw is not the place for you. btw maybe we should have hak. the germans for what they did to yiddishkeit in europe. through their actions and later on their compensation money was built a homeland and safety net to destroy judaism. mi kiamcha yisroel .these people are making sure we dont all get sucked in to this moshiach sheker r’l

  41. ahbeetobe or NOT tobee:

    ‘to all Zionist Sympathisers yw is not the place for you’

    I dont think you’ve been keeping up with YW lately. Yom Hashoa, Yom Hazikoron, Yom Haatzmaout and this anti NK propaganda have all been posted here. There have been diverse comments and opinions which were all allowed the freedom to express.

    You got it all wrong. I think if you will re read the comments, its clear that the average are ‘middle of the road’. Whatever the case, YW is the place for EVERY PROUD JEW; THANKS YW FOR BEING SO TOLERANT AND FAIR!

  42. mdlevine (not the doctor),

    It wasn’t a complaint. For whatever reason, our beloved editor put my posts on hold. There were many that went up as mine stayed in the ether. Could be that there was some techno-hyper-internet reason. It’s funny though that others were going up and then mine mystically appeared after my “complaint.”

    But back to my question:


    Moshe Fox,

    You said that you’d respond if there wasn’t a personal attack. I don’t believe that I have attacked you. Would you please respond to my question. (It got posted out of order – you may have missed it.) Is it permitted in your home/shul/world to speak disparagingly of Satmar Chasidim and others who think Zionism to be bad for the Jews. Please note that I distinguish between Satmar and, l’havdil, neturai karta. I would join you in exposing these brethren who are in great need of tshuva.

    When the line of rishus is crossed, as all seem to agree has happened with n.k., then we not only can, but must stop sympathizing with them. There would be many ideas that we would agree with even nazis, y’mach sh’mam. They held that one should treat their mother nicely, and they were fond of beauty. I also hold of treating mother nicely and I am fond of beauty, but they are the worst of demons.

    N.K. is rotten. We don’t need to recognize what they do right anymore. They forfeited their right to respect.

    Torah purists, forgive me as I quote a non-Jewish source. Steven Covey talks about having a center in one’s life. He shtait that it should be a principle center (a wise way of pleasing all religiously/spiritually people without getting specific), but acknowledges that that people get caught in all sorts of other centers: friend, family, money, ego, etc.

    N.K. has become enemy centered. All of life rotates for them around the evil of the medina. Not only have they lost sight of the good for which we can thank Hashem, they have lost sight of everything. If it’s not about anti-Zionism, they’ll turn it that way. They have clung to “my enemies’ enemy is my friend” with such deveikus that they don’t see what a cesspool they’ve climbed into. That’s my understanding of the “logic” behind it.

    Rishus can sometimes be understood. There is a sefara. It’s just krum and it ignores the complexities of life. Somewhere along the line, they lost sight. It’s evil. May Hashem help them to wake up and do teshuva!

  43. esrog – In regards to your posted question, let me give you two answers based on two approaches. Using the Satmar Ruv’s approach (which by the way is the shitah of those in the picture), besides the obvious problem with Zionoists and Zionism, there is the inherent problem with having a Medinah before Mashiach comes. As I’m sure you know this is based on the gemora of the “Sholosh Shavuos”. So according to this approach your question doesn’t get off the ground, as the state in and of itself is against the will of the Ribono shel Olam.

    If you disagree with this shitah (which from your post I presume you do), unfortunately your understanding of post-zionism is somewhat flawed. What zionism has created is the “Post-Zionist” jew that has virtually no connection with anything Jewish, and feels no need for it. Zionism was meant to chas v’shalom replace Yiddishkeit. It has created a society that feels no need for either.

    The bottom line is the current State of Israel by and large is devoid of Yiddishkeit, even more so now than even 30 years ago. In the past, most stores and restaurants were to some degree kosher. All shopping centers were closed on Shabbos, etc. Now, as you well know, that is unfortunately no longer the case.

    I do agree with you that the infrastructure created during the last 60 years is truly remarkable, but if you look at the whole picture you have to judge would Klal Yisroel have been better off had the Zionist state no been created? I think the answer is: Yes!

    In the spirit of Lag B’Omer, I’m sure you know the story that got R’ Shimon bar Yochai in trouble with the Romans. He was asked the same question that you ask, didn’t the Romans do good by the unbelievable infrastructure that hey have built. To which R’ Shimon answered their only Kavanah was for sin. I think the same applies here.

  44. they mourn the state of israel, and yet they live there..

    they curse the tzahal, and when they go to kever rochel and meoras hamachpeloh (just to mention a few) they go with tzahal protection…

    and to all those places ( KEVARIM INC. ) where you can’t get to because of the arabs, if the tzahal wouldn’t be standing there with there guns to keep the arabs away they wouldn’t even go there….


  45. I just received an update from a friend of mine from the area where this protest was held. He knows many of the people in the picture and says almost all of them belong to a certain group within Breslov that happens to be Anti-Zionist (that lives in Ramat Beit Shemesh). They are not Neturai Karta.

  46. gemorakop
    it’s the “arba shevuos” (4 sworn statements), it is pure aggadata, which can never be used for halacha or psak, can be attributed to hashkafa if desired.
    Many midrashim (not near sefarim presently), state that moshaich will arrive after the produce of harei yehuda blossoms (can only happen when people sow & harvest)in abudance and a majority of the tzibur hayehudi has returned to eretz yisroel. There are evidently 2 halachic shitos on the subject.

  47. Actually, the Gemara in Ksubos has 6 Shavuos (2 sets of 3). The pesukim in Shir Hashirim quoted only say 4 times the words, “Hishbati Eschem Bnos Yerushalayim”. Check out the Satmar Rav, zt’l’, R’ Yoel’s sefer “Al Hageulah V’al Hatemura”. I believe that he is more qualified to say what halachic inferences can and can not be drawn from which gemaros.

    If you want to darshan, how about the Daf Yomi one day last week, which discussed the 18 klalos that Yeshaya hanavi said about klal Yisrael, and he was not satisfied until he said “Nearim yirhavu b’zkainim” which the gemara darshans “eilu bnai adam hamenu’arim min hamitzvos” people who are empty from mitzvos will speak against zkainim in torah issues. This Daf was on the very day that Yeshiva World put up a post about Olmert speaking against R Mordechai Eliyahu, exactly as the gemara said.

    This is a KLALA of yeshaya, that happened as a result of the existence of the “Zionist entity” which gives such bnai adam hamenu’arim min hamitzvos the platform to speak like that about zkainim.

  48. The Satmar position is ridiculous. Everything that happens in the World is due to the hand of Hashem. Israel is a Jewish State because Hashem wanted it to be that way. I am sorry that their government officials and constituents are not frum enough for some people. Not accepting them isn’t going to turn them around any time soon. I thought Chasidim try to be understanding of others? For the Satmar and the more extreme members of the N.K. not to accept the Yad Hashem is enough of a reason for all other Jews to shun them. Their extremist position is cause for tremendous concern regarding their future generations who will, undoubtedly, be even more stubborn and non-accepting than their forefathers. All of this is not going to bring Moshiach any faster…

  49. Dear GemoraKup:
    Thank you for taking your time to respond.
    You attempted to give me two answers according to two shitos.
    The first Shita is according to The Satmar rav Zt”l. This school of thought asserts that even if the Chofetz Chaim is the prime minister, the medina is nevertheless Treif, because its’ very existence is prohibited. I am in no position to contradict the great and holy Satmar Rav. ( Nevertheless most Gedolim disagreed and he was a Daas Yochid. We therefore don’t accept his shita for the same reason we don’t accept the shita of the great and holy Rav Kook. Also see the Ohr Sameach on that Gemoro. )

    However my question remains the same. According to their Shita, what is the practical allternative. What do we do with the millions of Jews in E”Y.
    It would be irresponsible to claim that because the zionists brought those Jews in the first place, it is there problem. The demonstrators obviously prayed that the state doesn’t live till 60. So what is there allternative?

    Please kindly share with me their vision. If it were up to them and Chas Vesholom Moshiac will not……., what would they do?

    I will discuss the second shita later Be’ezras Hashem.

  50. So now, dear friends (and editor), if R.R. is correct and this is not a picture of n.k., we need a new thread. Let’s make sure that we understand this. All who post here seem to agree that n.k. stands for not kosher. Fine. Good. Let’s give them the verbal abuse that they well deserve.


    Let’s back off a second here. If it’s a Charedi group showing their view of a medina that they believe to be against the ratzon Hashem, this thread becomes a brutal manifestation of ugly abuses railed against kosher Jews innocent of these harsh words. Shame on us!

    We clearly have a major disagreement here on the state of the state, but let’s get this clear. Some of us aren’t as learned as some of us. Some of us aren’t as sophisticated as some of us. (By the way, I’m putting myself in the latter of both of those statements.) Not every Jew with a long coat and peyes deserves to be lumped with Neturai Karta. It is horrendous to do so.

    Moshe Fox, do you agree that it is wrong to lump all anti-zionists together with the neturai karta? By the way, could you explain to me what makes one a zionist? Serious question. Where do you differ from a non-zionist? Above and beyond the name calling that many anti-zionist posters here partake in? Where are the differences?

    Miracles in establishing the state? Check.
    Mitzvah to be in Eretz Yisroel according to many/most? Check.
    Holy Land? Check.

    I’m serious and not trying to provoke you. What are the real bottom line differences? Is it only about whether or not to say tachanun or hallel?



  53. outoftown wrote:

    “gemorakop–take a chill, and open a blog to express your profound thoughts”

    gemorakop- I agree regarding the profound thoughts, minus the sarcasm. Please continue to post, and hopefully outoftown will learn to speak more respecfully.

    Kol Hakovod! My thoughts exactly! You cant spit on the hand that feeds you!

    Actually my comment was deleted and I though it wa

  55. …sorry. I thought it was quite appropriate. All I said that everything is in Hashem’s’ hands. When the Israeli army is victorious its because thats what Hashem wants. Although the Medina has faults, there must be abrocho there somewhere. After All, they have a dynamic, powerfularmy. IT IS ALL BIYDEI SHOMAYIM….

  56. Gemoro Kup,

    With your permission, I’ll continue.

    The second Shita you mensioned is that of the Aguda. The problem is not the very existence of the state, but rather its’ secular nature. We are happy that the state exists, but are dissapointed by how it looks. So we do our best to change it. We have representitives in the legislation, and are very involved in kiruv, etc. This shita, addapted by the vast majority of our leaders, is quite different than that of the first shita. No one here mournes over its’ existance.
    Through out history, the existence of Jewish kingdoms were never justified by their observance of the Shulchan Oruch. They may have been critisized for their lack of observance, but no one ever said they should not exist. Think of Achav.
    To prove my point think of Degel HaTorah Mayor Uri Lupoliansky, who is supported by Rav Elyashiv. This Year he Happily attended the national celebration of independance day. He was the guest of honor. Think about it, a charedi represantative was the prime guest at the secular zionist celebration!


    There is only a small group of Jews who think that their rebbe is Hashem, and they don’t belong to Satmar. It’s not a question of whether or not it is the Yad Hashem. It is the Yad Hashem when a bird whistles outside of my window, and it’s the Yad Hashem when Hitler rises to power. The question being debated here is whether or not the state of Israel is good for the Jews. It’s actually a fascinating debate with many repercussions and nuances. Put on a more objective mind frame, sit back and enjoy.

    The Satmar position is based on Torah. It may not be mainstream, and it may not sit well with you. However, just as no one here in their right mind would tell you that the Satmar Rav was Hashem, no one here will tell you that the Satmar Rav was anything other than a very wise and holy man.

  58. Editor: I don’t know NATAE24’s level of understanding of English Grammar, but when he writes “Satmar’s moronic position”, with the apostrophe before the s, he means lashon yochid, i.e. R’ Yoel himself. If that is the way he speaks of gedolim of that caliber, I feel that he should be stricken from this site. Many people that comment on this site, regardless of what they hold of various gedolei Yisroel, (e.g., the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rav Kook, Rav JB, or the promulgators of many other controversial shittos debated here) always speak in respectful terms about them. The only limud zechus I can think of from this comment, is that he is ignorant of grammar, and he meant the Satmars at large, in which case the apostrophe should be after the s.

  59. NAETE24

    I think you should reread the posts. MOST of them, in fact are leaning towards the left,IF NOT IN THE MIDDLE!

    Certainly the majority are mocking the NK position!

  60. I respect any Aishes Chayil, but if these opinions are “left” then I don’t want anything to do with this crowd. Half of my posts on this subject matter were either deleted, editted or added after I complained. The fact remains that the N.K. and Satmar extremists shouldn’t even have their opinion aired, certainly not publicized and supported! They are a disgrace to the Jewish nation.

  61. Dear NATEA24,
    As you can probably see from my earlier comments, I find the Satmar doctrine hard to accept. However, I am shocked by the disrespect you are showing torwards the great Satmar Rav. I do not know who you are, but I can confidently assume that you are far from reaching his level of wisdom, piety, and holiness. Have you ever, ever, lost sleep over the troubles of Klal Yisroel? Do you even know who you are talking about?
    I humbly suggest you see Rashi in Rosh Hashono 17. He defines
    “apikores” as: מבזה תלמידי חכמים

  62. NATEA24: For the record, there was not ONE of your posts which were deleted, edited, or posted after you complained.

    Perhaps you would like to know that comments are not posted the second that they are submitted.

    It is an extremly time consuming process and the team tries it’s hardest to publish them as quicly as possible.


  63. NATAE

    First of all, just relax.I want to tell you whata GIANT og Giants the Satmar Rebbe was EVEN if he opposed Israel. hE WAS VERY CLOSE TO MEMBERS OF MY FAMILY AND THE TZEDDAKAH HE GAVE WAS ENORMOUS,

    I will relate an incident to you that happened not long before he died, He was a very wealthy man and gave away huge amounts of money to the poor. One of his Chassidim, a well to do man used to take advantage of the situationa and tried to grab whatever he could, the Rebbe ALWAYS GAVE HIM; Finally another chasid approached the rebbe and asked him, ‘Rebbe, why do you always give him money, he has plenty and he always comes with another sob story. Stop giving him, he doesnt need it.

    Without blinking and eye, the Rebbe answered, ‘He doesnt need it?’ Nu, BH , he doesnt need it, i am happy to know that there are less Tsuris(problems) amongst our Yidden. i WILL CONTINUE GIVING HIM’

  64. I can appreciate your positions, but in answer to your comments, yes, I do lose sleep over the troubles of Klal Yisrael. I stay up at night thinking about how you extremists have turned off so many millions from such a wonderful religion. Also, when I give tzeddakah, it is money that I earned, not that was handed over to me. Finally, one is not an “apikores” for belittling an opinion that clearly stands against the Yad Hashem.

    Editors Note to the readership: This is a person who is stating that “he is not an apikores for belittling an opinion that clearly stands against the Yad Hashem.”

    He also has commented a short while ago yelling at the editors for deleting comments etc. when that clearly was not true.

    He then started submitting comments which personally attacked The Satmar Rov ZATZAL. Naturally, those comments were deleted (and we will not mention them).

    We then sent him an email stating “COMMENTS SUCH AS THESE WILL NEVER BE POSTED. We think you ARE right! Yeshivaworld is NOT for you. Anyone who can indirectly belittle a Gadol Hador will lose their commenting rights. WE ARE SERIOUS.”

    His response: “I GUESS THE TRUTH HURTS”…..and then used a few choice words.

    I guess YW has just exposed an APIKORES.

  65. ANOTHER email from an APIKORES:

    You are also immature, biased & brainwashed, but I guess we can leave that for another day. Please remove me from your site, and do not respond, or there will be a Din Torah, and I don’t intend on using a Satmar Beit Din where all the Rabbanim can be bought for a price.

    Will this guy stop? 

  66. a din Torah??? he joined YW not the other way around. he actively went to the site read the posts and sent in posts. now he wants a din Torah if YW responds to his request to remove him from YW. such nonsense!

    my vote: send him a response email saying that he is not welcome to post anymore comments and that his name has been deleted and password have been deleted

  67. esrog – I disagree with your version of the Agudah position (to which, for the record I personally identify with). As I am sure you are aware the Agudah representatives sent a delegation to the UN in 1948 to voice their opinion AGAINST the Partition Plan. The Chazon Ish, among others, did mourn when the State was established. As a matter of fact the Chazon Ish said that the State will fall before Moshiach comes.

    The representatives that we send to the Knesset, are not to change the makeup of the State to our liking. THey are there to protect the interests of Yiddishkeit in a hostile enviorment. They are there with the shitah (which is the underlying difference between the two shitahs) that it is better to fight from the inside than from the outside.

    I think that if you truly understand the Agudah/Degel HaTorah position, it is not that different from the Satmar position. The differences are more in approach than hashkafah (though they do not agree that the Sholosh Shavuos apply, as you correctly stated).

  68. midwestern If u are lumping those 3 rabbonim together, u should add the Tzitz Eliezer,Rambam, R. Hirsh, Netziv, Seredai Aish Z”TL (just a sprinkling) for having controversial points of views on different subjects.
    Down south, we are full of Chabad shlichim, the big guns that i called said, “Nonsense. riduculous and quite nishte” about the rebbe fasting.

  69. Dont be silly! He cant call him to Din Torah, he has no case!!!!

    Is he going to charge him with deleting blashphemous comments about the Satmar Rebbe Z’L,,,????RIDICULOUS.

    Besides, if he DOES , I think the Din is that he must follow YW to the Bais din of his choice. The defedants can choose. Thats how it goes here in Europe……..

  70. 1) Please be aware, as was explained months ago on the Teheran 6 threads, that more than one group exists under the “Neturei Karta” umbrella and it is really unclear who is who these days.

    2) Regarding the Breslover issue: Years ago, there was a persistent troll all over the Net who indeed claimed to be a Breslover and espoused views similar to those of the protestors. I could not understand how he called himself Breslov, and finally I asked a mainstream Breslov friend of mine for clarification.

    Apparently there is a splinter group of Breslovers, mostly newbies with issues, that follows a rabbi whose name I won’t post due to LH issues, but whose writings are an attempt to claim that had Reb Nachman ZYA been alive today, he would have supported Neturei Karta and he would have protested against Zionism. Ramat Beit Shemesh is almost like Emanuel in the Shomron in that it has attracted all kinds of “interesting” types of residents, and apparently these Breslov wannabes have settled there (probably due to subsidies that were handed out when RBS was first built). Adding Prozac or Zyprexa to the water supply in certain RBS buildings would probably put an end to all of these demonstrations.

    Again, opposing Zionism is one thing. Putting on a show for sonei Yisroel, whether in Teheran or via the Associated Mess, is the worst form of sinas chinam.

    And for those of us who do oppose Zionism, the best thing to do is to just ignore 5 Iyar and the flag. If we go out of our way to mock the medina on that day, we are giving the Zionists a victory and making fools of ourselves. If, on the other hand, we believe that the day has no significance, then we must show it exactly that – no significance.

  71. Qoudush:
    The Lubavitcher Rebbe’s were never against “Zionists” they were against “Zionism.” There is a BIG difference between the two. The Chabad view is that by loving every Zionist, they will have an impact and grab one Zionist at a time away from Zionism and into Chassidism, as opposed to other who hate Zionists, but have through their hatred not caused even 1 person to leave Zionism, if anything the opposite, people do things now lihachois to irk on anti-Zionists.
    Limoshol, as a bochur in Yeshiva in Yerushalayim, I would watch cars drive on the street where people would throw rocks on Shabbos. On more than one occasion, I watched cars with teenagers in them go around and around and around just having (as much) fun (as those throwing the rocks). At time I asked an eltere Lubavitcher Chosid why the Rebbe was not encouraging people to demonstrate and throw rocks etc. His answer: We will get 100 times more people to stop riding cars on Shabbos by inviting them in for cake and tea then they will get by screaming “Shabbos.” I believe the same is true about these anti yom haatzmaut demonstrations.

  72. I am surprised that no one mentioned the fact that it says on the sign
    “Zionists are not Jews.” If you disagree with a group iz ayn zach, uber avek tzunemen yenems chelek in Elokey Yisroel, ven hut men gihert aza zach???
    Most of us here agree that Zionism is not the right way, but does that make someone a non-Jew?? Whether these people are Breslov, Satmar or N.K does not matter, the mokor of their protests cant be kedusha, if they are making outrageous statements like those which are contrary to halacha.

  73. When one asserts that all positions of Gedolim are ipso facto Halacha or is intolerant of dispute or rewrites history to better conform with idealized views of previous generations, you are on a slippery slope that rarely ends well. Gedolim can make signiifcant errors, few pages of the talmud record no disputes in either Halacha or Machashava, and accurate knowledge of “Maasai Avot” is critical to preserving our mimetic traditions and heritage.

    But there are limits that are often difficult to draw. Fortunately, despite a few that have lost their way, the neturai Karta are not evil and, at the other extreme, Olmert’s crticism of certain recent rabbinic starements, may have a strong basis in Halacha.

    This is hardly the forum for intelligent debate, but the nuanced positions of Gedolim on the Medinah run the gamut from R. Goren to R. Teitelbaum, Zichronum LeVeracha, with many shittot in between. In a few hundred years Klal Yisroel may evolve a more unified position. Until then, diversity should be encouraged, it has been critical to our success.

  74. The worst part is that the signs are also in Arabic. That’s where the cutoff between kanoius (we shouldn’t all be Pinchos HaKohein but one or two in every generation are often needed) and complete mishegoss lies – in trying to somehow impress Arab sonei yisroel, who are probably laughing at these fools’ stupidity when they see the Arabic signs (and that’s assuming the Arabic language on the signs is not as full of mistakes as the “ideology” behind them).

  75. Excellent reader for the intellecually curious on this subject.
    “Messianism, Zionism, and Jewish Religious Radicalism” – Aviezer Ravitzky
    explores with marmikomos all shitos from radical anti-zionism to messianic zionism with a chapter on the Impact of the Three Oaths in Jewish History.

  76. Moshe Fox,

    Thank you for your thoughtful and respectful response. Why I picked on you was for two reasons. 1) You and I had had a bit of a bitter back and forth and I didn’t want it to stay there and 2) I sensed that you were an intelligent and well informed person and I wanted to hear what you had to say – I like to learn.

    It confirmed what I suspected. You and your ilk have much more in common with me and mine than most people realize. When we get past the politics and the fringe within both “camps,” the difference comes down to very little. I’d rather have that out in the open. I don’t want to debate you either. I’d lose.

    Of course I agree that it’s wrong to lump together secular Zionists with religious Zionists. I realize that for intelligent discourse we sometimes need labels, but they are so very dangerous.

    There are certainly similarities between Satmar and N.K., but I heard it said about the Satmar Rav that he was once asked if he’d shake hands with Arafat and he responded, “Of course not. He has Jewish blood on his hands.” They see the medina as an afront to the geula. If you saw it that way, you’d hate it too.

    I used to defend N.K.’s shita (as I now defend Satmar). It’s not mine, but I think the far right has an important voice in K’lal Yisroel. Neturei Karta, or if it’s true that there are divisions within them than the ones who sit with Holocaust deniers (we know the list of their evils) have crossed the line. Their behavior is horrendous. I would not welcome a member of that particular group in my home. I wouldn’t drink their wine.

    I do believe that there is room to disagree with the Satmar Rav, but I don’t believe that you or I can do it on our own. You need to have daas Torah. I am aware that there are voices of Daas Torah that disagree. My point is only that just as an achron will almost never be cholek on a rishon, but he can paskin against a rishon based on other rishonim, so too, I don’t think that you (no disrepect intended) can be cholek on the Rebbe, but yes with daas Torah, of course you can disagree?

    As to what makes one a Zionist, I think most here would qualify as the utilitarian – to whit the majority spoke out recently for the great necessity for hakaras hatov towards Hashem’s allowing the medina. The second definition is where things get more dakusdik. What does it mean to be a part of the geulah? Isn’t everything a part of the geulah? Those aren’t questions that I’m posing, rather they are rhetorical and there are many more where they come from.

    My non-Zionist approach is highly subjective and thus not worth much in a public discussion. I’m a bit of a coward and thus take the wait and see approach. I don’t live b’aretz, but I asked a shiala of an Adam Gadol who lives in Eretz Yisroel. His answer (as many answers are from anashim chashuvim) was highly practical. It was dependant upon whether or not I could afford it. Now, I’ve missed that window of opportunity because my children are much further into their education and, bli ayin hara, doing very well as frum American kids. Very few people of greatness would advise me to move now. Chaval!

    Again, thank you for your answers. Chazak u’baruch!

  77. I don’t trust that idea, so pompously posited by DrYidd, that diversity “has been critical to our success.” It has a rei’ach raa. CONFORMITY can be — and unfortunately, often is — a bad excuse for avoiding the exercise of thought and discernment, which EVERY YID NEEDS TO BE ABLE TO fulufill his/her tachlis.

    BUT “diversity”?? That’s disorder, absence of sovereignty, and a failure of unity. Like the “diversity” of the beryonim and the rabbanim, the end-of-Bayis-Sheini disjuncture of the kehuna and political leadership of the b”Y. It’s Machane Yehuda and Machane Yisroel. It’s the 10 lost tribes of Israel.

    The ideal of “diversity” for the 12 shevatim is shown to us in parashas Naso. It’s Hillel and Shammai, who married off their children to each other’s children. I seriously doubt that ANY gadol b’Yisroel has ever come out so blithely as our pontificating DrYidd and to say the psak of another internationally respected Rav or Rebbe “IS NOT DA’AS Torah” or make the claim ‘that not everything a gadol says is ipso facto halacha’. Those sentiments are dismissive of piskei halacha from renowned poskim.

    DISPUTE is not the same thing as EROSION OF STATURE, herr dr.!! And “shitot” are not disputations unless you believe internationally respected rabbanim don’t “necessarily” have chashivus.

    It’s obvious to me that focusing on, and always reminding ourselves of, our uniqueness and unity as a goi kadosh will get us to mashiach alot faster and less painfully than trying to drag down the already acknowledged Torah greats in order to put up one’s own.

  78. Well put Gemorakup.

    Of course the fact that the oilam thinks that the Aguda position is what Esrog thinks it is, and I do not think that esrog is alone in thinking this way, shows how the whole concept of daas torah has been corrupted and we live in a generation where petty politicians parade as representatives of the ‘Gedolim’ and the tzibbur is hoodwinkked into believing that this is their shita.

    l’moshol, lupolanksi going to the atzomos parade. DO you think he really asked R. Elyashiv about this? It is no kasha why then does he get general support from R Elyashiv since what is R’ Elyoshiv supposed to do? He cannot force him to behave and to cause a rift – well I think anyone can realize this might do more harm than good. Having a hardei mayor is good ‘Hatzolo’ and best not to rock the boat. This is all part of the hester ponim of ikvesa d’meshikha,

    I heard a story (do not know if it is true) about a ceetain politican (who had the chutpa to tell the story hinmself) who wanted a heter from a certain godol to start Beitar and Kiryat Sefer even though they they were in greeen line and face potential giving back/danger’/etc/

    The godol wanted to see maps to see how much Beitar was in Green line. Basiclaly the politician lied to this Godol and showed a decetful map/ . while the Godol is very smart of course – he is not a Novi. And ein l’dayan ela mah she’einav ro’os.

  79. concerning an eariler comment of refusal to go to a satmar Beis din, because the “Rabanim can be bought with money”.

    To this day, Satmar refused to be bought by zionist money!

  80. I think I am too old to leave anything of use. It took me 5 hr. to read this whole post.
    But I think that we are mixing up the two “s’s”. The “Satmir Rebbe” who was an Adom Godol and some “Satmir Chassidim” who take it a little too far. We have to remember that everywhere you look there are some crazy people but you shouldn’t mix them into the same category as the real tzadikim.

  81. Gemora Kup and SloppyJoes,

    It is amazing that comments are still being submitted.

    I agree that the Aguda is not too fond of zionism.

    I learned for a while in both American and Israeli Yeshivos. I’ve realised that the Americans are indeed very close to Satmar. In Israel (there are exceptions), the shita is different. I do not want to ellaborate on this point because it is an issue in it self.

    Concerning Mayor Lupoliansky, here in Israel we are so critical, that a politician would not dare to do something like that with out consulting his Rov. I do not know if he consulted with Rav Elyashiv specifically, and even if he did , it was probably just “Horoas Shoa”. Nevertheless I am surprised that the pachkivilim have yet to attack the maor on this matter.

    And now for some historical facts:
    The Aguda, mainly under the guidance of the Gerer Rebbe, signed the decleration of independance.
    A delegation of Yerushalmim traveled to the Chazon Ish asking him to order the poneviche yeshiva not to fly the israeli flag. He rejected their request.
    I heard from a talmid of the chazon ish (this was also printed in the mishpacha), that the chazon ish did not believe that the state would last for more than two years.

    I am by no means trying to suggest that the Aguda is pro zionism, however I am trying to point out that the aguda shita is deep, complicated, and far from black and white.

    My first question concerning the satmar allternative remains unanswered. Please rise to the challange of answering it.

  82. esrog – Just in case you are checking back for my reply, here it is.

    The Agudah position appears not to be black and white because of the various factions involved. Going back the the Kennasia Gedola in 1937, where the Polish factions supported Zionism to a degree, while they were opposed by the Litvishe factions (led by R’ Elchonon and R’ Aharon) and the Hungarian faction. These varying views exist until today. BTW, the reason that the American agudah view is more “right wing” is due to the influence of R’ Aharon, and the greater percentage of people of Hungarian backgrounds in American yeshivos. This is my opinion. (I may be biased given my own hungarian background and having learnt in Lakewood affiliated yeshivos).

    In response to your question, as to what is the practical solution, there is no easy answer. The best solution that I am aware of is to continue to daven hard for Biyas Goel Tzedek, bimhaira beyameynu.

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