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Jackk, I would be interested to hear your opinion about what is in the report, but you seem to be rehashing your opinions without reading it. Is it some sort of denial mechanism that you are protecting yourself from a cognitive dissonance?
Avira > the state being a harbinger for moshiach is baseless, but the fact that jews returned(not all of whom came b’issur – only declaring the state was totally assur) could be kibutz golios
Great, this is a meaningful step forward! So, if we see Yidden coming to EY is positive, what next should have happened? (unrealistic ideas above about charedi medinah notwithstanding).
I don’t think Yidden in EY at the time were less religious than pre-war Poland and USA, with majority non-religious. Polish state tried to establish something along the lines of historical Vaad arba artzos, and Chofetz Chaim was writing forceful letters to Polish minister, explaining that such arrangement will make Rabbis subject to control of non-religious Jewish leaders, and he did not want it, and tried to make a case that Polish medina should not want it either.
So, what kind of entity could Jews have realistically? Ask British to stay or submit to Jordan and ask them to maintain separation between charedim and chiloim? I think the system that emerged with charedi community in many aspects separate from the state is close to what could be done realistically. So, as long as there is ability to maintain religious institutions, we should have at least same respect to Medinah that Chofetz Chaim had for Medina Polin.
I am too lazy to scroll up to see what was mentioned, but last page of Sotah mentions halochos that are different for “karov l’malchus” learning hochmas yavanit by R’ Gamliel’s students, a goyishe haircut ….
Neville, some of this “public knowledge” possibly came as leaks from, or in opposition to, this investigation. Some of that was clearly new to some of the participants. Report mention one FBI agent, leaving to cry and returning to say that the info Durham showed him was withheld from him and this affected his investigation.
There is also clear information about multiple named participants in the same meeting “forgetting” what was said at the meeting – not enough to prosecute, but enough to form opinion about them. Some are still in senior positions in the government.
Jackk, yes, gov agencies that have extraordinary powers over citizens have laws and policies to keep them straight. For example, FISA applications to allow surveillance of US citizens have special forms with specific questions that need to be verified and signed by several people. In this case, it appears that some of these questions were answered based on not looking at them, some people were routinely signing them presuming others checked them out, some were given to junior people who did not understand what they were doing. The FBI agent who was found guilty put into the form the inverse of what he was told. And multiple cases, where they act because the senior leadership is asking them daily – “Nu?”, and opposite for Hillary investigation.
In one case, when agents realized that all the information about, I think, Carter Page was not supported – they AGAIN renewed fake FISA, justifying it by – let’s verify that this is all wrong and clear his name. This is totally against the rules – they are not charged with investigating someone until “proven innocent”.
One interesting conclusion is that the whole saga was started by Mrs. Ohr bringing fake info from Justice dept to her British employer, who then resold that back to US via … Mr. Ohr and then used to trigger investigation.
Note that all of this is NOT an indictment of a typical FBI agent. Most of T investigations was done by the headquarters taking over the investigation instead of regular offices – a highly irregular thing, and therefore there was no “chain of command” supervision.
I don’t want to go through everything – you would not believe me anyway, and I can mix it up. I would suggest that you do this exercise yourself – just read first 20 pages of the summary, and then scroll to some random places and tell us what you think.
@Neville, ^, Ohr Sameach, Avira, and I all seem to agree that there is no problem at the Balfour time. Ohr Sameach of course is the most significant here, not just because he is the gadol between us, but he wrote that at the time.
Now, Avira nd you seem to make a point of “making a state”. I understand your emotions here – this is a major event that you do not like. But this is a very Zionist view, pardon me. Why is a “state” shaich to anything in halocho?
Do the Oaths say anything about a state? or about establishing malchus? having elections? building a Knesset building? Waiving a flag? I think not, they are only talking about arriving to EY. Please correct me if I missed the fine print.
Computations were not that hard. After you shoot an object, trajectories follow laws of physics, there is no wind or rain to confuse in the space.
Trajectories of the planets were computed so precisely a couple of centuries ago, so that the planets that were not yet seen were predicted by the variations of the paths of the visible planets.
Gadol, maybe the father removed the seforim for the tznius of his son?! As one is allowed to hide knowledge of a maseches – a sefer with his son’s name will give away what the son learnt?!
I am, like Neville, puzzled why Yidden would care about some King, but I agree with anon Jew that it is your business, and especially your Rabanut, how to deal with the powers of your country. But there seems to be a strong recent tradition here, and everywhere, for people with little knowledge to disregard opinion of experts whether it is politics, beis din, medicine etc. This just shows how ‘modern” we are, even those of us who proclaim that they are most traditional. Would a Yid who lived in a Hungarian shtetl 700 years ago send their advice to Beis din in spain? I don’t think so, and he should not start now.
jackk > worthless investigation
did you actually read it and feel everything mentioned there is OK? FNI agents considering an investigative action against a political candidate and one warning another – she is going to be a President and she will not forget?
Not being boke in this, I googled a little. It seems that Ohr Sameach considered Balfour declaration sufficient for matir nedorim. I wonder whether we have statements on Oaths from other gedolim shortly from pre-state time, without being colored with later history. Any info?
Chofetz Chaim was for political separation from anti-religious Jewish groups in Poland, but I do not see him decreeing against those who went to EY (and he almost went himself, if not his wife’s sickness). Indeed, from his description it seems that anti-religious pressure among Polish Jewry was not different from EY. Seems that some here oppose Zionists more than Bundists or Communists. Not sure, why.
Neville > From his comment, it sounded like he meant the fact that Jews even lived there (pre-state) made the Oaths not apply and therefore matir’d conquering the land.
Not just some Jews lived there. I think we can’t easily use small old Yishuv as a justification for further expansion, but at some point pre-1948, there were masses of Jews in possession of Tel Aviv and multiple kibutzim without, seemingly, any violation of Oaths. I am not sure whether you disagree with this premise, or you don’t agree with using it as a starting point (Avira’s Tanna Kamma seems to disagree on the first point, but agrees on the second).
Avira > Anothet rebbe of mine held that once they’re violated, the act is done,
Ok, great, so your Rebbe (no name for this opinion!?) is looking at the same issue I was thinking about. I was trying to show that there was no violation under Turkish/British government, so it was nolad b’heter. Your rebbe seem to count from 1948, but it was not the time when masses of Yidden entered EY, it was done before. Now, maybe you can address my sevora then.
Maybe technology in general, and AI as a final point, are the ways zman Moschiach comes “naturally”. Given productivity increase in last 200 years, most people do not need to work any more and can spend their time either learning and doing mitzvos, or drinking, smoking, and killing other people.
Maybe people are complaining more because they have more time on their hands and they do not know what to do with it.I suggest reading the short 300 page Durham repo issued today.
Describes in plain terms how senior leaders at fbi misbehaved in creating Trump investigations while being afraid of Hillary because she might bear a grudge after the election. If you are a real liberal, you should be mad how these people damaged your cause by their lies.you have a point, but I wonder whether this is a healthy backlash.
Original setup was that states had jurisdiction on most things, and feds insured interoperability via commerce clause. Later, feds abused commerce clause to regulate almost everything, and states lost most of their power – and that is why everyone is obsessed with Presidential elections. a President is supposed to be someone who faithfully executes the laws … Chief Shoter, not a big deal
so, npw, states are finding how to use the legal system to get some of their power back.
n0 >So he is saying that we should continue supplying Ukraine with weapons. Were you trying to misquote or not?
right, I am pointing out that Ze is misquoting, or, more likely, reading some source that misquoted. I this misquote in Iranian news, for example. I hope Ze will clarify what her sources was, and we can learn something from that.
I guess a lesson for politicians is – speak precisely so that you can not be misquoted…
> What, then, was their reason?
I am pointing out a historical loophole in the Oaths that Yidden exploited (and maybe Hashem provided) – immigration happened under Ottoman Empire and British mandate, in a large part with their agreement. So, at that point, Arab opinions were not relevant – they were subjects. So, after Brits left, Jews and Arabs were left to their devices. At this point, Oaths are not shayach as Jews are already in the land. Would you agree to that? So, whatever wisdom was in the decisions after that, this is not about oaths. Similarly, the next waves were of refugees from Europe/Arab countries/USSR, not political movements to conquer anything (and as there was a state already, oaths may not be relevant to new arrivals anyway).
In many states, you can buy electrons from a list of companies. Sounds like, people should buy ot Sun to Fri from that Yid, but shabbos from someone else.
The question is how AI uses the data. In theory, machine learning (actual current technology behind AI marketing name) is capable of generalization and coming up with new solutions not envisioned by the developers and their data. In practice, most existing applications collect so much data that when confronted with new data point, they simply need to find a closest data point in the data they collected. Not much generalization, just old-fashioned database lookup. See, for example, a self-driving car that gets further away in the rear mirror. It seems that they are still not able to collect enough data to resolve all possible situations.
Neville> don’t say the land wasn’t conquered. Denying the Israeli War for Independence is crazier than denying the moon landing.
I don’t think this is clear. Jews came and acquired land, mostly legally. So, this did not violate oaths, I think. Opposition grew over time and got to a point of confrontation that involved nearby countries and was prevented by British Mandate. When mandate was over, confrontation started. Would you say that were Jews accepted dhimmi status in 1948, war would be avoided? Not sure, nearby countries were not that religious to be interested in that. Also, Oaths do not include a need to submit when already in EY, self-defense (including preventive) sounds pretty legit. And net waves of immigration – from post-war Europe, from Arab countries, Russian Jews – all were people escaping or after prosecution, not coming as a wall. The only people coming as a wall are American Jews, maybe.
Nechemiah – do you mean Persian king? Note the difference as at the moment Persians are somewhat better than Assyrians towards Jews
RebE, unfortunately, in the passing years, Moon completely lost the atmosphere, so the next dor haflaga would need to travel further.
space race was not completely political. Capability to send satellites is equivalent to the capability to send nuclear intercontinental missiles from which there was no protection at the time. So, that lead to MAD … and to explosion of Americans learning maths. Growth was so fast that there were no qualified teachers, of course, so US ended up with generational plague of teachers who hate maths teaching next generation to hate it.
RebE, is it a 65th anniversary of your arrival? Are you celebrating day of departure from Hungary or day of Arrival?
and I presume you meant “leaving due to Soviet occupation”, not revolution itself?
We have in Sotah ~42 that if a person has too much zevel coming out, he needs to check the status of his health and fix himself before things became worse. Similarly, B Metztya 107 talks about people being responsible for effects of cold and heat and how a healthy breakfast (bread, salt, water) has so many physical and spiritual benefits. At the same time, Sotah also says that Hashem protection is limited to people who do not have aveiros…
So, you need to read BB 116 in the context of these other sources. My suggestion is that one first checks his health, then checks his aveiros, and only then go to the chochom (not simply a talmid of one). Just for the simple reason that we, R’L, have more sick people than Chachomim, so the latter need some time to learn. Do you have a better explanation that covers all sources, not just one?
R Elchonon’s statement seem to contradict all of the sources, whether requiring refuah or going to the chochom. also, requires an explanation.
The question (not mine) was not what your name mean, but why did you choose it! Do we have something to learn from appeasement if we infuse some yeshiva enthusiasm in it?!
Earliest Chaim Berlin was named so in 1914 when Mr. Cham Berlain was already an adult, so he did not attend the yeshiva. So, most likely Mr. Cham Berlain was named after the _original_ r Chaim Berlin, son of Volozhin RY. This is also cler from the fact that Cham Berlain was a Mayor (Meir) of Birmingham, while Chaim’s brother was named Meir and also partioned his name from BerLin to Bar Ilan.
Ze truth> Reverence for words – an awareness of the wonder of words, of the mystery of words – is an essential prerequisite for prayer. By the word of G-d the world was created
Well said! Is there a source for these wise words?
fuller version of Mr. Borrell on May 8 is below. But Ze did not come up with this herself. From quick search, I see for example Iranian News reported the way Ze does. Out of curiosity, which agency did you read it from?
And everybody wants peace, yes, but for the time being, unhappily, Putin is continuing the war and Ukraine has to defend. And if we don’t support Ukraine, Ukraine will fall, in a matter of days. So, yes, I would prefer to spend this money increasing the, the well-being of the people, hospitals, schools, the cities, as the mayor is asking for. But we don’t have the choice.
…
What would be your message to Vladimir Putin?**Josep Borrell
**Well, the only message that the international community and certainly the Europeans are sending is ‘Sto
p this war. Stop this war. And stop bombing Ukraine, withdraw your troops’. I know he’s not going to do it, but every time I listen to some world leader saying I want peace. Yes, OK, if you want peace, push Russia to withdraw. Push Russia to stop the war. Don’t tell me ‘Stop supporting Ukraine’. Because if I stop supporting Ukraine, certainly the war will finish soon. But how? How the war will finish. It doesn’t matter? Yes, it matters. It is the most important thing. The war cannot just finish because Ukraine is unable to defend itself and it has to surrender. And the Russian troops will be in the Polish border and Ukraine will become a second Belarus. Do you want this kind of ending for the war? No.R Bruan has some interesting expressions:
I am not going to give an answer whether one should vaccinate or not, but I want to discuss the principle of Torah … medical questions are to be determined by doctors. You are not the barometer of truth. This principle that people should debate whether we should vaccinate or not vaccinate, and everybody has an opinion on the matter, is anathema to Torah.“You are not entitled to your opinion when it comes to medical matters!
“You are not entitled to your opinion when it comes to Torah matters!
“A, It’s a waste of time and bittul Torah. And B, the Rebbe wrote to people many times when it came to medical matters, they should not research this matter. They should listen to the doctors and not involve their minds in their condition other than to listen to doctors’ instructions,” Rabbi Braun said.
That was years ago, before the “information superhighway,” Rabbi Braun said. Nowadays, with the “social media explosion, everybody has an opinion which they spread around all over.”
“Every one of these WhatsApp groups should be closed completely – they have nothing to contribute to this discussion,” he said. “You can’t even answer a question about v’sen tal umatar, you are going to decide about pikuach nefesh issues – issues of life and death?!”
And someone will say, I will find a doctor who agrees with my opinion…I will shop out for a rov who agrees with my opinion,” he said.
…
“Conspiracy theories about doctors and Rabbonim is apikorsis,” he said. “You are not an expert – you are not the one to decide if there should be an eruv or not, or to vaccinate or not.”“Furthermore, you have no ownership of your body to begin with. That’s another principle of Torah – nobody has ownership of their body. This whole concept of liberalism where I get to decide what I feel is right and you are taking away my rights to make choices for myself, is also not according to the Torah,” he said. “You are not to decide whether to get vaccinated or not – that is a flawed way of thinking.”
Ze, thanks for the link! for those who don’t want to go to the link: the article lists who the panel was: a son of a BD member, a SIL of a former BD member, a melamed, someone who runs a Hotline, a sofer, a Rabbi, and a chiropractor. This is not Beis din, or even individual members of BD.
The article quotes at the end an actual BD member: Rabbi Yosef Braun, member of the Bais Din of Crown Heights, issued a clear call to members of the community not to follow the “lone” opinions of doctors, rather the majority who recommend being vaccinated
So, we can restore the honor of CH BD, B’H.
RBZS, see here https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/308078/haircuts-on-the-night-of-lag-baomer.html
Rav Moshe Feinstein zt”l, however, argued against the Mshna Brurah’s position and allowed for weddings on the night of Lag BaOmer even if it did not fall out on a Thursday night. He writes that one can rely upon the lenient view – especially for one who has not yet fulfilled the Mitzvah of Pru uRvu.Asking for higher quality of baalei teshuva rather than quantity is not an answer when he have huge swaths of Yidden literally disappearing. If you think you can do better quality, go do it, rather than criticize other efforts.
I see commonality here on several subjects – do we look at a treif object (feminism/socialism/zionism) and see the worst manifestation of it, or do we try to see possible positive elements that might be motivating some of the adherents. This is nothing new – avoda zara started as an attempt to show respect to Hashem’s messengers; some religions started/ or became popular as misguided version of Jewish religion…
I think the hiluk is in timing: when Inquisition was chasing us it was not the time to ponder their Jewish roots; when commies were sending Yidden to gulag and closing schools it was not the time to discuss with them the betterment of the world … But, as I understand Lubavicher Rebbe quoted here, one can look at person’s motivations and try to find and strengthen the right things. As one (non-L, yeshivish) Rav told me, he was sometimes asked by non-religious people whether he is a “Zionist”. He did not want to sully the good part of it, so he responds: yes, as in “hamehazir shhinaso l’tzion”.
Ze, Chaim Berlin did not live in Berlin, he was born in Volozhin and niftar in Yerushalaim, being a chief Rabbi of _Moscow_ in between, so you should be ok with that!
N0, I think you are right. Modernity is plagued by ideologies, with people creating fake theories to justify what they are doing and both Z and our esteemed poster are doing a similar thing. It is not a surprise at all, in this context, that people bitterly opposing each other, have similar features. Nazis Y’Sh rose as opposition to communists Y’Sh but created a very similar movement.
Neville,
I was pointing out possible difference between Mizrachi – religious zionists, and other movements. This is in response to a poster who claims any association w/ religious zionism would be condemned by gedolim.According to a wiki, there seems to be 4 major school networks in 1920s Poland – Aguda that Chofetz Chaim presumably advocates for, tarbut, yidishist, and mizrachi. I looked further and I see multiple references against the first 2 and none so far against mizrachi. It seems also that more than half of kids went to Polish gymnasiums that are also mentioned but less, maybe this is more about girls, not sure.
In one letter, he explains what these two schools do – they sound Jewish to parents who do not pay attention, but they tell made-up stories unrelated to what Chumash says exactly, like Lavan having pity to Yaakov and not attacking him.
I am also seeing now a photo of 1919 mizrachi teachers conference and they are dressed frummer than 1950s Lakewood.
DaMoshe, amazing story! Thanks for sharing.
RBZS, so you do know the answer. Witnessing Rav’s behavior is one of the major ways to learn the halakha. It is a wrong idea that learning have to be from books, it is preferred to learn it from T’Ch – unless you suspect that R Moshe was under duress, or it was a wedding of a princess, or R Moshe (H’V) is disqualified by the virtue of having a bas going to college, or a bas bito learning Gemora L’A.
For those who want to take their words back, know that the eye is watching and recording it at archive org periodically. This is not taking into account NSA and FBI … But I think this is why we cherish this anonymous forum that people can post things they are thinking about and can get honest (and more) feedback from fellow posters. On many issues, you would be reluctant to propose an idea to your IRL friends and they may be reluctant to point the contrarian views to you. So, if you end up realizing that you said something that was not accepted, you may change your opinion, or you may change how you argue your case.
We mentioned r Elchonon here who followed in footsteps of Chofetz Chaim in evaluating grim reality of 1900s … interestingly, Chofetz Chaim repeats in his letters again and again about danger of sending kids to wrong schools and a need to have at least one kosher cheder in every town. I saw him specifically naming two treif groups: yidiishistes and tarbut, cultural Hebrew school. I don’t see Mizrahi mentioned. Did I miss it?
Incidentally, his definition of a kosher school: learning chumash with Rashi without skipping any psukim. Double check whether your kids didn’t skip Dina or Tamar or Timna or gemora that doesn’t advise full time learning rashbi style
In Meron, you should follow minhagim of Rashbi, not of your shell. He didn’t listen to music from a box for sure
HaKatan,
1) Who made you and me judges over judges? the chief rabbi owes us to show us his internal teshuvos as much as the State of Israel owes us to show how their atom bomb (that they may or may not have) works.
2) I looked up who is on London B’D. Graduates of Gateshead, Ponevezh, Etz Chaim, former dayan in Lakewood and Monsey. What else matters? How do you not treat them with respect? It is very confusing.HaKatan, as mentioned above, previous UK CRs attending similar ceremonies. On your other point, if you have a T’Ch, you interpret his actions l tzad zchus as much as possible. In this case, this is more than one, and heads of the whole shomer-mitzvos community. It looks like you are triggered by the Z word for political reasons. Please review halochos of how Jews are supposed to live with each other from pre-Z times and then apply them, rationally, to our times.
HaKatan, we re not talking about Z word. We are talking about basic halocho – there is a shomer-mitzvos community in a large country; they have shuls, shoichets, cheders, gemora classes … they have a duly constituted beis din and Chief Rabbi (which US does not have, btw). They have a chazoko to deal with their king, they are not ignorami, they know how to ask shailos when they need to. That is all. You may disagree with them on any issue you want, but you have no right to dismiss them from the Jewish community. Torah is marashas kehilas Yaakov. You are worse than Yannai who made fun of an ignoramus, you are ignoring people who are more learnt than you are.
They are – UK is probably the closest partner and similar economy to US in the world. And I am talking solely about personal experiences here. There is definite effect of US on the world in politics, science, world wars, anti-communism, etc that might not have happened where it just a rich province of UK.
Reasonably non-controversial eruvim are available in EY and many “OOT” cities in US. So, it seems that the most “in townies” consist of either people, whose wives can’t walk to shul or park with a stroller on shabbos like everyone else or those who use possibly invalid eruvim? This is not worth the large selection of restaurants …
This seems to be a quote or paraphrase of R Elchonon about Z:
Nothing is asked of a Jew but national feeling. One who carries shekels and sings Hatikva is exempt from all the commandments of the Torah. Clearly, this approach is considered idolatrous in the eyes of Torah.This seems to be talking solely about anti-religious Z, not Mizrachi. Maybe, he takes on Mizrachi in some other place.
It is telling that HaKatan brings R Elchonon here. He was probably one of the most anti-Z gedolei of his generation. There were others who were more accommodating. Weird decision to cancel a Chief Rabbi of a large country because a website of the beis din that approved Rabbi’s decision has a reference to a movement that one of the gedolei disapproved 100 years ago. It is as if it is an impression of “frumkeit” if one finds someone else to denigrate, while there is no down-side of rejecting a large community of Yidden.
R Soloveichik analyzes what interactions with christians are appropriate. He absolutely forbids any interaction about theology – no disputes, discussions, finding common points, etc. When catholics were preparing to renounce their position that Jews are in error and recognize us as “older brother”, he advised against attending: it is their problem, if they want to teshuva gezunte heig, we do not want them to expect any concessions in return! At the same time, we are interested in bettering the world and should absolutely have a dialog related to solving the issues of the society, world peace, etc.