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Sephardim dressing up as Poles aristocrats in 17th century is surely to the glory of the revived Polish state … or, in other words, somewhat absurd.
The way it works – Sephardim are mostly for blending in reasonably. They dressed like Arabs among Arabs … So, now they are surrounded by Litvish-dressed people in B’nei Braq and Leikwud – so they assimilate into this community. If they were to really have the same shitot as Ashkenazim about maintaining their traditions in every aspect – they would walk around in colorful turbans.
There is a story about Chofetz Chaim brought as a character witness for an Yid in the Polish or Litvish court. The attorney first introduced the Rav to the judge by quoting some of the stories about him… The judge asked – are you sure these stories actually happened? Attorney responded – no, but for some reason nobody tells such stories about you and me …
Disclaimer: I do not know whether this story is true.
bump
It would be even better if bochurim have educated opinions about who and what they are voting for.
Rav Moshe wrote that voting is showing hakaras hatov. What exactly did he mean? I presume not only that non-Jews check that Jewish towns voted (that would be Hillul Hashem issue) and not simply to “fund our yeshivos” (that would be “self interest”) but actually knowing what is good for the country and voting accordingly.
Make sure to ask them to find time and place to say mincha there.
How about people being meikel in learning when they are involved in helping klal, or meikel in raising family when they are involved in learning.
Generally, if you are trying to achieve an extreme result in certain area, you need to sacrifice a lot in others. So, the question in advance is whether you are the person to be meikel in something, especially if it is at smoeone else’s expense. for example, at some point R Ovadia Yosef’s wife was feeding the baby under the table so that he does not interrupt his learning in their room. I am pretty sure if I tried to emulate the Chacham in this, I would be learning outdoors.
Avira > That’s not unexpected at all – increasing too much too fast is just k’balo kach palto
right, but I thought I was already taking this into account and included that in the question, but the Rav suggested slowing down even further.
Avram,a good point that this person is not likely to be rattled, or even reading this. The reason I suggested that he might have second thoughts is because he respects Torah and he is reading here many people who claim to know Torah well and they are so adamant in their worship of chumros. So, he gets cognitive dissonance.
Some things are not predicatble. Biden had a behira to be a centrist or not. He achieved a position he was pining for so many years and he is old enough to know better. The first sign that he is not choosing well was when he came out and said that Trump did not leave him any vaccines. It went down from there.
Dov, a good example. I once had a chance to ask R Gans @ Mattesdorf about how much effort I should do to increase learning, and he responded, unexpectedly – m’at m’at…
Syag > right. that 30 minute drive for cholov yisroel will cause one less surgery.
I am not sure why this is farfetched. There are many people whose life is filled with responsibilities and mitzvos. Adding one more would require subtracting another one.
I simply responded to your claim of a mesorah that destroys the traditional y/z partnership. And, again, I understand the social need you mention, but it doesn’t change the ideal. Whatever you read in Mishna berurah, it’s author ran a store and traveled around selling his books, after personally marking up each copy after he checked that it was bound correctly. It is not that difficult to support yourself in our times, those who are able to should take this chumra upon themselves. Now we are back on topic
What if it is hard for me to be meikel?!
seriously, you need to define what is “an effort”. For many people, it is psychologically easy to be “like everyone around them”. They also feel accomplished by focusing on chumros, so this all sounds like nedarim and caveats above apply.
And also – how balanced is the person in all aspects of his life. Let’s say someone is a moser nefesh to be a surgeon, saving lives daily after an early minyan, then learns with a chevrusa, then learns with his children, helps them study towards a profession, spends quality time with his wife and delivers food and nachas to his elderly parents. At this point, he wonders – based on reading YWN – whether he is “frum” enough and wonders whether he needs to spend an extra 30 minutes of drive to pick up chalav isroel yogurt and milk, so that he will either learn less, has one less surgery, or disregard either the wife or one of the kids. What would be your advice?
My mesorah, going back to Rambam, says that Y will only get schar if hashgaha made him unable to earn his own living. Otherwise, the whole reward goes to Z. Otherwise, it is not logical to spuriously decide that one does not want to support himself.
Avira > my rosh yeshiva says bshem the gaon that Y/Z having the same schar only applies if the Z tried his best to bea Y, but hashgocha led him to have to work. Otherwise it’s not logical
Right, whatever was logical for centuries, now is not based on your personal mesorah. Were you in charge of Gan Eden, would you know expel those Zevuluns that got there before this psak?
Avira > how many baalei batim have a total Y/Z relationship? Most, do not.
True, I am also not aware of people paring up this way in our times. It is mostly some provide funding, and some take. There are lots of people who provide for multiple learners – some names are on the buildings, others are not.
First Rashi on Bereishis came up in another thread – that we can use an argument that Hashem gave us EY when arguing with goyim. This is written around the time of two major religions fighting for the right to own EY in first crusade, so this was quote a political statement! Did he not expect goyim to respond with the reference to the oaths?!
RebE, I am not sure what is the context of people looking down at Talmidei Chachamim. We have lots of maamarim chazal that I see as definitions of a Talmid Chacham: merabim shalom b’olam, do not rebuke him in the morning for the aveira in the evening, etc.
I don’t think that people who are living these definitions are looked down upon in our communities, unless we are talking about some other societies, but then how would a pasuk interpretation affect them? Maybe the Rav’s idea is similar to Rashi quoting (his father?) R Yitzhak on Bereshis that we can point to the Chumash that EY was meant for us. How is that going to convince non-Jews? one explanation: it is there to strengthen ourselves and then we will be able to convince. Maybe same here this is to strengthen Talmidei Chachamim themselves.
Tangental, but Chanad Fredrike Rebbe quotes a mill owner in 17th century who would run after a peasant to return several perutot saying that mabul was because of stealing pess than perutah, he does not want to be worse than that. I am quoting this story rather than the midrash itself to emphasize that this is how tzadikim used to understand this. Maybe it was in generations where other issues did not apply.
This is also discussed in Nedarim. Many people use chumros in the way of nedarim, taking upon themselves obligations that may not be necessary, even if they are praiseworthy. The goal of such nedarim is to motivate or protect themselves. As gemora says here, you can say “I am taking neder like reshayim” but not “like tzadikim” because the first ones like doing nedarim.
Note that I am talking here about yehidim. The question whether a community in our times does better with more chumros is a separate issue, and I am meikel here allowing more chumros 🙂
Agree with a lot of posters here:
Fair statement about people being meikel because they simply disregard halakha and also about being meikel with chochma often helps.Totally disagree that someone who learns whole life gets in a better olam habo. For example, Issachar/Zevulun partnership means that both get the same one, as far as I know. So, anyone who works and support the other one (either directly or pays full, or close to, tuition at Jewish schools thus supporting both those who teach and who do not pay much) should get a share of each person they support. I don’t know hw olam habo maths work, but this can add up to a bigger share.
But biggest issue is – meikel/machmir in what? If the Yoshon Reuven above is also a baal chesed, tzedokah, davens w/ kavana, etc, this is one thing, but if he is not a good husbanf, father, neighbor, co-worker – then not.
the classical requirement is to divide your time in 3: mikra, mishna, talmud. Later empahsized Gemora more as one needs to finish all 3 and the latter is more important. This is all good, modern world indeed requires more Talmud (in a wider sense – ability to reason about mitzvos, not simply learn pesukim (mikra) and known halakha as in “mishna”). Still, this later statement does not fully negate Nach … so, say, if you are doing 7+ years of daf yomi, you should either do full Tanach and Mishna before that, or finish them in the same 7 years, even if takes you 10 minutes a day.
Had gadya?
My favorite explanation is that the question is not on R Shimon but on R Akiva – how is he giving an answer that the expert on esim does not? Because he saw integrity of R Shimon worthy comparison w/ Hashem.
RebE > The IDF killed a terrorist who was slaughtering a cow for his own wedding in broad daylight.
this is better, but still ambiguous: what was in board daylight – IDF, slaughter, wedding. If the wedding was planned in board daylight, then the other events might have happened at narrow moonlight. Also, not clear why the breadth of the daylight is relevant to the two slaughters animals.
> yiddishe shochtim used to schecht animals for the Arabs
this happened in other places, where Yidden and Muslims lived together, especially if both groups were subjugated to a third party. I believe it works for Sunnis but not Shia. The joint business works this way: each shechts their own, but the Jews schecht more so that their remainders can go to Muslims.
> were “trained” in the English-studies programs of our yeshivos
this is not fair. Headlines in other sources are no less misleading! I suspect that there is a special program for headline writers, as this is the main source of clickbait revenue, articles themselves are not that important.
syag > My JSS Hebrew teacher was the first professor I had at YU who addressed a class of male YU students with, ….
Syag > There is an atmosphere of acceptanceI think you misunderstand the first quote (I tracked down the original article so that others don’t have to). He is saying that this particular teacher was the _first_ one who was “accepting”, all the other ones were not, as it says just 3 line above your quote, so things are not as bad as you are afraid of (or at least were 5 years ago):
>> It’s hard to feel welcomed into a community that doesn’t want you. There needs to be a change in YU so that students can feel that they are welcome and that the community wants them to be a part of it.
Yabia, I agree in general, but more likely Ashkenazim descend from a small group of people, so their mesorah is simply is not representative of the broader tradition. Then, from times of haskala, we started relying on printed and, recently, on Roshei yeshivos to enforce uniformity at further loss of diversity of mesorahs.
Sfaradim (a loose term that usually includes everyone else) are not one mesora, they are multiple mesorahs, probably almost as different from each other as they are from Ashkenazim.
It seems to me that Rav’s concern about Nach was not about missionaries but about more prevalent Israeli schools where Nach might be read exclusively in nationalistic terms, and we do not want this in a yeshiva.
phil, we need to be more specific when protecting against the missionaries. What exactly we should point in KJ to highlight their problems?
Reb E – exactly. Thanks, I did not know how many es-ens are there… Now, I will have to double-check!
This really highlights his gadlus. In modern language his theory was 100% correct after 2600 tests and then became 99.96% correct, enough to reject…
As many noted, probably a majority of the government faction are shomer shabbat.
So, now comes the challenge – as the whole world looks with a magnifying glass at Am Isroel – will they see am kadosh venavon or will they see infighting and hillul Hashem? One of the haverei knesset is quoted as saying to a loser: “we will treat you fairly, we are not animals like you”, which is encouraging sans the comparison…
So, if davening for election results or skipping tachanun may or may not be appropriate, davening for the new government to be wise and honorable is certainly appropriate.
> how is gemara any less the word of God than chumash?
a false dichotomy? any gemora discussion presumes full knowledge of Tanach. Nobody is saying “maybe there is another pasuk about this”. All relevant psukim are quoted. There is more confusion with oral Torah, everyone knew the mishnayos, but not the other sources.
let’s continue with the daf! Nedarim defines rasha/tzaddik in the following way: how responsible is a person with his words. A rasha tends to make nedarim (to motivate himself) – high-stake promises that cause complications, such as when an animal dies, you need to find another. A tzadik does nedava – dedicating a specific animal, and if something happens with it, the nedava is gone. The best way is to take the animals to the doors of BM and do nedava right before entering. No risk of false promises.
To extrapolate, a tzaddik thinks thru all practical implications of his decisions and talks and acts accordingly. A similar business concept is called “managing risks” rather than embracing it “bravely”
(aka foolishly). So, if you organize your life and what you do for others in a right way, you are a tzaddik. How do you achieve that is immaterial – if learning tosfos brings you there, shoin. If Ben Ish Hai stories teach you common sense, tov meod.You did not notice even bigger dikduk problems in the headline:
does “his wedding” refer to the terrorist or to the cow?
or maybe, the cow is the subject who shechts terrorists – and gets eaten “for his own wedding”:
terrorist-shechting Cow, for his wedding, is eliminated.a halachic (sharia-wise) question would be – is the meat still mutar if the terrorist did not fully finish zabihing before being eliminated, or finished zabihing after being eliminating while falling on his knife.
furthermore, presuming the cow is OK, then can the bride get married same day to the terrorist’s brother not to waste the cow before aveilus starts? If yes, they need to act quickly (both marrying and eating) before IDF arrests them as accessories to terrorism and destroys the house.
I think this is addressed in Beitza 25 by R’ Akiva regarding eating from the live animal at the end of yontiff.
yungerman,
it is ok to teach alef beis after you learned alef beis (heard from R Shapiro Z’L). A corollary – do not teach alef beis before you learned it!Similarly, here the point is that only after a person realizes his own deficiencies, tries to fix them, and realizes how hard it is, he is ready to thoughtfully approach other people. Otherwise, you’ll have a silly person who did not examine his own middos pompously telling others how to live their lives.
Here is some fire for the most ridiculous context of which tzadikim are more tzedek:
students of Chofetz Chaim were learning Mishna Berura and found a reference to a sefer that was not in the yeshiva. They went to the Rav’s house and asked him to loan them this sefer. Rav did not have it at home, but said someone in another town, just an hour on a train, has it. Students were stunned – Rebbe, you are quoting this sefer and you do not have it at home to learn? Yes, he said, it will cost money and gelt ist tzait and tzait is Toirah…To contrast, R Ovadia lived in a small apartment and worked there. People who were in the apartment testified that he does not own numerous books that he is quoting and is doing it frmo memory, without taking the train.
Apparently, it is not the first time, Jews are bending curriculum to make sure we are different from the opposition. We used to have 10 commandments as a central part of service, and now it is an optional personal reading. We started insisting that we focus on mitzvos v. emunah in opposition to christians … and now Nach because it was/is misused by Maskilim/Israeli public schools. It may be fine for general education, but learned people should understand better. Otherwise, as we hear here, suddenly so many books that Hashem ordered for us become “non-essential” in some minds. If Hashem meant to give us Bavli, he would have done it.
Avira, I think there are 2 things to consider on Sephardi limud:
1) (generalizing, of course) they indeed tend to go into pilpul like Ashkenazim. Many commentaries include stories. This does not make their limud lower. To the opposite, I often find them addressing the core issues rather than dealing with some complicated borderline relevant issue. This may be akin to difference between Yerushalmi and Bavli, as we discussed before: Yerushalmi is more focused (and looked down at wild Babylonians), while Babylonians developed a complicated – and useful – methodology.
2) Sephardim did not have haskala. So, when they arrived in 20th century to modern world, they encountered same isues Ashkenazim did 200 years before. Syrians in NY did not do worse than French and Germans in Europe. On the other hand, pretty soon they jumped up on Ashkenazim bandwagon of developed solutions (schools, conservative halakha, shtreimels) and went through the painful process much faster. (same as, l’havdil, Afrikans get wireless internet skipping putting phone cables Europeans did fro 100 years before).
Exercise, like learning or working, does not need to be a chore and it is fine to enjoy it.
I learned a tradition from a Polish Yid who went thru concentration camp and taught me just several shiurim when we met while traveling: Yiddishkeit can be best “proven” from Jewish history. One needs to know it then (and surrounding history too).
Yitz, Sam,
good points. Maybe he means that the person needs at least appreciate the magnitude of the task – and consider how hard it is for yourself – before taking upon the task of helping others?Avira, a good question whether such a club should be guided by experienced professionals. now, tell me how do places that do not have clubs deal with these issues? Do we have professionals to deal with various issues that arise?
Probably Bavel with Jewish community existing for ~2500 years, uncluding Naviim, Amoraim, Gaonim
Avira > mixed dancing, is something that’s also far worse than women washing clothes
We are talking about actual washing clothes in a river rather than using a washing machine, right? I am not sure you either saw or know how to do that.
J4B > Should we not suggest solutions to problems because we will always have our own problems?
a great question. I recall halochos of tochacha say something similar – one should not reproach others when they have problems in the same area. That is, OK to do that in areas you are a tzaddik. R Salanter, seems to be taking a more “holistic” approach. Besht uses a similar approach saying that one can not use permissible ways to “change his words” if he really lied at least once in his life (this is quoted on the last page of the thin book “Lying for truth” after listing all permissible ways – quoting it on the first page would have made it even thinner).
J4B, Taking gadol’s question (more) seriously – if I personally fail the way R’YS did, I’ll be fine with that.
Even more seriously: why would one disclose his failure? It got to be l’maase. That is, it should make us feel better when we fail – even he R’YS did – and continue further. Without that, we could simply turn to warmer religious activities than mussar.
a good idea to get a dashcam. Then, you’ll be able to review your behavior. Also, there are apps that record phone accelerometer. Count of times you had to break at high-g is a good predictor of your chance of getting into an accident. So, if your count increases over time or is higher than your peers, you need to change how – or where, or when, or whether – you should drive.
where are you all in a hurry? Do seconds of learning something matter to you? Are you NORAD?!
Just have YWN and NYT delivered to you in print on Sunday and learn the rest of the week