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lgbg,
A question about your newly married friend: who sewed her husband’s shirts before he was married?
Regarding the teaching of life skills, I think all men and women should know how to cook basic meals, wash clothes, iron, and perform basic mending tasks. These tasks should be taught at home but can also be learned from a book.
I personally think that women should know TaNaCh, since all of the Hashkafah & Mussar come from it (I also think some men should perhaps know TaNaCh better, but that’s another issue). I also agree with cantoresq that since women today have a higher-level secular education than in previous generations, it’s appropriate that their religious education is also on a higher level, so that they can really appreciate what Judaism is about.
Matisyohu28,
Thanks for clarifying your point. I had not understood “kol k’vodah…” as applying to me in the literal sense, because it seems to me that given the way our communities and lifestyles are structured, staying inside all the time with younger children would mean compromising their education, health, safety, mental well-being, etc. for the reasons I detailed above. I understood the phrase more in the sense Think BIG explained, as describing how a woman should conduct herself when she is outside.
Taking my children where they need to go & supervising them while they play is one of the ways I care for them, which I consider one of my primary tasks at this time. None of the grocery stores near me take telephone orders; some take internet orders, but sometimes shopping in-store is the only way to get the items I need. Taking my children out on errands allows me to model appropriate behavior in public places, which is an important part of their chinuch.
That’s an interesting idea. I’d want to make sure that they’ve had training to prepare them for this first though.
How would the idea of women spending most of their time indoors apply practically today? Many women who do not work outside the home are responsible for some/ most/ all of the shopping; errand-running; transportation of children to & from school, camp, playdates, and other activities; and bringing children to various medical/ dental appointments. How would a woman, particularly a mother with young children, fulfill these responsibilities without leaving the home? Also, how could a woman take her children outside to play or to the park or zoo is she is unable to go outside, especially if she doesn’t have a backyard?
Some of these services are available. There are services that deliver groceries or dry-cleaning. And some children are provided with bus services (although ideally this would need to be door-to-door service so the mother doesn’t need to go outside to wait for/ with her children, since she obviously can’t leave them unattended). But these services are limited & often expensive.
I’d particularly like to hear Matisyohu28’s opinion on this.
Pashuteh Yid,
You wrote:
“In the real world, it is very easy to tell when you are dealing with an obnoxious neighbor. In the chareidi world, obnoxious behavior is easy to masquerade as frumkeit. I personally can’t tell the difference. Maybe the other’s here who have ruach hakodesh can.”
I don’t believe that this behavior is typical in the chareidi world. People are more likely to notice these egregious examples because the behavior is so obnoxious. It’s possible that other people reacted neutrally or positively to seeing the children care for the kittens, but that the children didn’t notice this as much. At least, speaking for myself, I would remember being called a “goy” because I’m caring for a kitten more than I’d notice being praised for it.
I also think that a positive upbringing from a parent like Bowzer would be more than sufficient to counteract negative comments from ignorant neighbors with respect to keeping children on the derech. Of course there are some parents who are unable to provide this positive upbringing, or who are treating their own children in this manner, but that is a different issue.
To know the difference between obnoxious behavior & frumkeit, consult a trusted Rav. Even if this knowledge won’t affect the critic, it will be invaluable for yourself & those you love.
Why does one need to believe this story about in order to understand the importance of not being jealous of others? I, like several other posters, believe that it’s likely that the Rebbetzin was somehow mistaken in her information (although I don’t believe she is C”V trying to mislead anyone), but the fact that this story can’t be verified by outside sources doesn’t negate the importance of this particular midah.
I do agree with Bowzer & Pashuteh Yid that when we confuse religion & culture, & behave as though certain things we don’t do are wrong (as opposed to things we just happen not to do), then we are also guilty of disenfranchising Jews who end up being excluded. I happen not to own a cat or dog (mostly because at this time in my life I feel that my young children k”ah are sufficient responsibility for me), but I’d never dream of telling someone else that it’s wrong to own one.
Leib5,
I agree with your post. It reminds me of a commentary I learned from the Hagada on the words (in English): “If Hashem would not have taken us out of Egypt, we, our children, and our children’s children would still be enslaved there.” One explanation I learned (and I know this isn’t the only one) is that surely at some point we would have been freed by some “natural” means; however, had we been freed through the action of another Egyptian king, or through the king of another nation, we would have felt indebted to that individual & resented by the Egyptians. In that sense we would still be enslaved, since we would not be completely free from that experience. Instead we were freed through miracles, so that we owe nothing to a flawed person or nation, & immediately taken out of there. What a chessed this is!
Think BIG:
Do you mean to say that you would never use any medication/ medical procedure/ medical research that’s been tested on animals, or non-Jews? After all, if an animal or a non-Jew (I’m not equating the two, obviously) are so different from you, anything tested on them wouldn’t work for someone on your level of existence. Or would you never use anything invented by someone who isn’t Jewish?
Actually I think it would be more correct to say that certain natural laws apply to every category of existence. For example, gravity affects all existence, including domeim. Every living creature, including Tzomeach, needs some form of food & water. Similarly, Chai, M’daber, and Yisroel all have certain natural drives. And obviously M’daber & Yisroel are similar in many ways too: all people have a capacity for intellect & morality that’s non-existent in animals. The difference is that Yisroel has another spritual dimension that M’daber lacks.
Just as medical advances & scientific discoveries apply to M’daber & Yisroel apply to all of us, so too can other innovations, including parenting books (assuming that these have been checked for anti-Torah ideas).
I think that all of us agree that as Jews we do have a higher spiritual purpose; as such, we should expect more of ourselves than of the non-Jews around us, and comparisons to non-Jews are therefore irrelevant. Rather, we should all be the best we can be. After all, to follow your argument, would you bother writing about how you are superior to an animal?
NOW are you happy,
The OP never said she hates her father; she said she hates when her father spends so much time on his phone. Obviously she loves him, or she wouldn’t care to spend time with him. Personally I think it’s very mature of her (especially given that she’s 13) to vent her feelings on this forum & get some helpful advice about how to make her points in a respectful way. This allows her to express her negative feelings anonymously without offending or embarrasing her father so she can communicate with him constructively later.
I think the previous posters who suggested that she discuss this with her father in a respectful way, or bring it up at the end of a conversation, made good points in a way that Dale Carnegie would.
I’m not sure what posts by mdlevine you are referring to–neither of his posts seemed negative to me, and I’m not sure what letter you’re referring.
jphone,
By “training” Pashuteh Yid probably means training the housekeeper in how the house is organized, what tasks are expected, and to what standards the work is to be done. Cleaning a toilet requires minimal training, but folding & putting away laundry requires more.
It seems that those who don’t use cleaning help have some difficulty understanding how dependent people can become on this help, especially when someone’s had the same housekeeper working for her for some time.
To the OP: I hope you will find a better housekeeper soon; it may then be easier for you to resume a relationship with your former friend.
Chavie,
This reminds me of a story I heard from a friend named Saki:
There was onced a girl who was famous among her friends for her tznius. When her classmates would wear unsuitable clothing she would dress appropriately, and made sure to tell them how they should be dressing. Even when her classmates wore clothing that complied with her school’s dress code, she made sure to tell them if she felt their clothes were inappropriate.
Her teacher was so impressed by this behavior that she gave her a special “tznius medal” to wear on a chain (under her clothing of course). Unfortunately one day she was busy telling one of her nebach classmates that her skirt was the wrong type. As a result she missed the first bell and was running to class so she wouldn’t be late. Suddenly her “tznius medal” slipped and she tripped on it and fell down the stairs. Despite the many thousands who said tehillim for her she died.
edc,
I think I understand your answer to my first question: I believe you are saying that those who post against the Torah should be called out, even though the reason given in the g’mara which you cited as a “maar hamakom” doesn’t apply. (This is assuming that the aforementioned posters really do post against the Torah).
But you haven’t answered my second question: Why should these posters be censored? That’s not mentioned in the g’mara at all. Unless your call to censor them was just a sensational way of calling them out.
edc,
Please answer my question in the previous post: the reason given in the gemara for calling out a rasha who poses as a tzadik is so that when bad things happen to this rasha, people won’t think that Hashem C”V punishes tzadikim. So, assuming that you believe the “pro-freikeit” posters mentioned earlier are r’shaim, please explain how this reason applies to anonymous posters on a message board. Specifically, if you believe that these posters will be punished, how will other posters become aware of the punishments meted to these “pro-freikeit” posters?
Also, according to this source, r’shaim should be identified but not censored. Please explain, then, why you think that the “pro-freikeit” posters should not even be allowed to post.
edc,
According to the G’mara the purpose for identifying r’shaim is so that people will realize when they are punished that it’s because of their actions. How does this apply to posters on a forum? How do other posters know what’s happening to these so-called pro-freikeit posters, such that they’d C”V think that tzadikim are punished for no reason?
I think it’s important that people closely examine their motivations for telling other people what to do. If one is feeling superior or better than the person he is considering remonstrating with, this will come through in the tochacha & it will almost certainly not be well received. Also one should try to put himself in the other’s place & consider how he’d feel if he were on the receiving end. If he would feel offended, he probably shouldn’t give that tochacha.
I understand that doing this requires a lot of self-awareness & empathy, but I think it’s essential.
nameless and oomis,
Thank you for sharing your stories. I think the story oomis related is the “flip side” of nameless’s story. The kallah’s family in nameless’s story recognized that they weren’t perfect, and therefore were relieved to find the chassan’s family, though wonderful, wasn’t perfect either. The woman oomis spoke to, on the other hand, seems to believe her son/ family is perfect, & deserves no less than perfection. The landlord’s daughter is lucky to have avoided this situation.
yontel, I agree that being overweight is dangerous as well. However, the analogy isn’t perfect because it’s possible, and indeed, preferable, not to ever smoke, but everyone needs to eat. Therefore, it isn’t as easy to draw the line between eating and overeating (and this line can vary from person to person). Also, there’s no equivalent to secondhand smoke with respect to overeating.
That said, it is true that just as smoking causes/ exacerbates a host of other health problems, so does being overweight.
Also, it’s possible to experience health problems due to poor diet without being overweight, and obesity is not caused solely by overeating.
The problem with “overdoing” tznius–labeling certain behaviors as required when they’re not–is that doing so can deter those who would be willing to follow the halacha, but unwilling to follow chumros. Also, it can lead people to assume that other who don’t follow their chumros are wrong. This is the fundamental problem of “kol hamosif goreia”.
besalel, is driving a hummer/ escalade considered immodest only for women or for men as well? If this is acceptable for men only, please explain why, and clarify which vehicles are considered immodest for men/ women to drive.