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I know a rav who stopped the davening whenever someone talked. They realized that the more they talked the later they would get out.
The problems are in part hevelei Mashiach and part the fault of frum Jews who do not make aliya, become citizens and vote.
I heard that Rav Scheinberg said that today the koach of tuma is so strong that eevn a yeshiva bachur who goes OTD can be consdidered a tinok shenishba. Rav Kook compared the spirit of the times to an evil temptress (Sanhedrin 26b Tosafot d”h hechashud) in a letter to a rav whose sons became Communists.The Chazon Ish was also of the opinion that today’s non-observant Jews are tinokot shenishbu and this is also the opinion of Rav Asher Weiss.
Brisker, you can find it in the fifth section.
E-O-M, what about not pushing away kerovim? Maybe we can have special halfway-house shuls where people talk and there is a chazan to make them think that they are in a shul. However, IMHO (based on experience0 peopel are attracted to Judaism because they are looking for Judaism. They already have places to talk. If you want to read contemporary articles on this problem just google “talking in shul”.
Rav Asher Weiss says that something which is not mentioned by Rambam, the Tur or the Shulchan Aruch (and the 3 Oaths are not) is not halacha pesuka.Moreover, Rav Chaim Vital says that they were only for 1,000 years and Rav Meir Simcha says that the San Remo Conference repealed them. Moreover, the other nations violated their end of the bargain on many occasions.
Brisker, yes it would be better if they daven at home or even not at all. Zero is more than a negative number.
The Mishna Berura says (124:27) that shul police should be appointed to preevnt this. The Kaf HaChaim says (124:37) that they should be given many punishments and embarrassed in public (apparently because they are endangering the community – the Tosafot Yom Tov blamed the Chmielnitzky massacres on this). It would seem that the same would go fore those who bring small children who are incapable of being quiet (see Mishna Berura 97:3 and Kaf HaChaim 97:13 in the name of the Shela HaKadosh that this is a triple aveira: chillul kedushat bet haknesset, gezel tefilla and negative chinuch).
Health,
1. In case you haven’t noticed, the Islamists have fantasies of re-establishing the Caliphate and either converting or killing all “infidels”. In fact, they are already slaughtering Notzrim in countries under their control.
2.According to Ramban there is a Tora obligation to conquer and settle EY, by war if necessary. As the Chafetz Chaim put it, we are all soldiers (and, as with every army, we have our Benedict Arnolds who go over to the other side).
3. Part of returning to Hashem is returning to the land He gave us and establishing a state.
4.”Kmohem Yehyu Oseyhem Kol Asher Boteyach Bohem” is going on those who have faith in other religious groups.
Imagine if all of the frum Jews of Europe had made aliya when the doors were wide open. Israel would be a completely Tora state.
In my nusach it is “Goy”. This is technically more appropriate as a general nusach as “nochri” means “foreigner” and outside Israel we are the foreigners.
Health, I am also interested in knowing what you are smoking. Because of the debts on the “Hurva” synagogue he Turks persecuted ASshkenazi olim to the extent that they had to adopt Sephardi dress (this is, in fact, the origin of the Yerushalmi robes). At the outbreak of WW1 they expelled Jews who had not taken Ottoman citizenship as they preferred their European citizenships (I wonder why). The tried to impede the Geula and lost their empire. Ditto the British.
HaKatan, and America and European countries can protect their citizens? People in the US live behind multiple locks and are afraid to go out at night. There are video cameras everywhere for security. In Europe synagogues have no outward identification and in many places one has to pass through security and show ID to enter, even on Shabbat and Yom Tov.
“Happy” in Yiddish is “fray” (pronounced like the English word). “Frei” (pronounced like “fry”) means “free” and was used by the non-observant to mean that they considered themselves free from the mitzvot.
Health, nobody is forcing them to do anything (unlike in other countries, including America, where they must teach secular subjects or not be recognized under compulsory education laws). The taxpayers will simply no longer be forced to subsidize them. If the Chareidim want to live in dire poverty they will be allowed to live in dire poverty.If they want to stand on their own feet and contribute to the country (and not just be registered as “learning”) they will be helped and encouraged.
HaKatan, you are spouting nonsense. A long list of gedolim (Rav Kook, Rav Soloveichik, Rav Kasher,etc., etc.) supported Zionism. Other gedolim may have opposed certain Zionists but any alleged statements calling Zionism per se heresy or avoda zara are extremely exaggerated and in some cases outright forgeries – in fact, there is a whole book put out by Mossad HaRav Kook called “Forged Letters Against Zionism”.
I would also mandate Science and Citizenship. A modern country simply cannot afford such a large number of people who are in a permanent state of dependency. On ther hand, I would also mandate that secular schools teach Gemara and Jewish Thought. What sanctions should be applied to those who refuse is another question. Perhaps it would be sufficient to deny welfare benefits to those who did not meet the minimum requirements as they caused their situation willfully.,
Daniel,
1. Rav Moshe does not call them kofrim (actually it would be kofrot). He says that certain beliefs are kefira.
2. He also says that a woamn may be president of a synagogue board and, in fact, an observant woman is preferable to a non-observant man.
I think it’s mainly a response to the feminist movement as well as non-Orthodox movements. I personally do not understand how a rabbi whose contract must be re-approved periodically and whose son does not inherit his postion (see Rav Shaul Yisrael, “Amud HaYemini” 12:5) is said to hold a ????. There is a title “yoetzet halacha”, which is pretty much the same thing, and is issued by the Israeli Chief Rabbinate and accepted by mainstream MO shuls in the US. While the yoetzet si generally limited to questions of taharat hamishpacha and other women’s issues, there are also liitation to various types of semicha. Only “Yadin, Yadin” allows one to be a dayan. “Yoreh, Yoreh” is a general license to pasken. YU also has a title “Rav uManhig” for men who want to teach limudei kodesh as it is considered pas nisht for such a teacher to be “a Mr.”. It also gives a designation “chaver”, which basically means that he is a learned baal bayit.
Yitz,
I did some further research and Rambam seems to say explicitly (Guide 3;40) that the government may execute people according to circumstantial evidence. This is also Rabbi Bleich’s interpretation (“Contemporary Halachic Problems” v. 2 p.365). On page 362 he also quotes Rav Tzvi Hirsch Chajes (Torat Nevi’im ch. 7) as saying that the government may even execute people according to estimation and that this appears to also be the view of the Chatam Sofer (Responsa Orech Chaim 208). He also quotes Rav Chajes as saying that rebels may even be executed for minor infractions as I previously posted to prevent a breakdown of law and order. This is his slippery slope.
As for injustices, how would you feel if c”v a loved one was murdered and the killer was set free because of lack of certainty such as the absence of witnesses (such as the case of Shimon ben Shatach and the man who chased his fellow into a ruin and came out with a bloody sword)?
Machiach Poem
Machiach Poem
The Arrival of Mashiach
To All of ‘Us’ From One of ‘Them’
‘Twas the night of the geulah,
and in every single shteibel,
sounds of Torah could be heard
coming from every kind of Yeidel.
This one in English,
some in Hebrew, some in Yiddish,
some saying pshat,
and some saying a chiddush.
And up in shamayim
The Aibishter decreed,
“The time has now come
for My children to be freed.
Rouse the Mashiach
from his Heavenly th,
have him get his chariot
and head down to Earth.”
The Mashiach got dressed,
and with a heart full of glee
went down to the Earth, and entered
the first shteibel he did see.
“I’m the Mashiach,
Hashem has heard your plea,
our geulah has come,
it is time to go free!”
They all looked up
from their learning,
this was quite a surprise.
And they looked at him carefully
with piercing sharp eyes.
He’s not the Mashiach!”
said one with a grin.
“Just look at his hat,
at the pinches and brim!”
“That’s right!” cried another
with a grimace and a frown,
“Whoever heard of Mashiach
with a brim that is down?!”
“Well,” thought Mashiach,
“If that is the rule,
I’ll turn my brim up
before I got to the next shul!”
So he walked on right over
to the next shul in town,
confident to be accepted
since his brim was no longer down.
“I’m the Mashiach!” he cried
as he began to enter.
But the Jews there wanted to know first,
if he was left, right or center.
“Your clothes are so black!:
they cried out in a fright.
“You can’t be Mashiach–
you’re much too far right!
If you want to be Mashiach,
you must be properly outfitted.”
So they replaced his black hat
with a kipa that was knitted.
Wearing his new kipa,
Mashiach went out and he said,
“No difference to me
what I wear on my head.”
So he went to the next shul,
for his mission was dear.
But he was getting a bit frustrated
with the Yidden down here.
“I’m the Mashiach!” he cried,
and they all stopped to stare.
And a completed eerie stillness
filled up the air.
“You’re the Mashiach?!”
Just imagine that.
Whoever heard of Mashiach
without a black hat?!”
But I do have a hat!”
the Mashiach then said.
So he pulled it right out
and plunked it down on his head.
Then the shul started laughing,
and one said, “Where’s your kop?
You can’t have Mashiach
wit a brim that is up!
IF you want to be Mashiach
and be accepted in this town,
put some pinches in your hat,
and turn that brim down!”
Mashiach walked out and said,
“I guess my time hasn’t really come,
I’ll just have to return
to where I came from.”
So he went to his chariot,
but as he began to enter,
all sorts of Jews appeared
from the left, right, and center.
“Please wait, do not leave,
it’s all their fault!” they said.
And they pointed to each other,
and to what was on each other’s head.
Mashiach just looked sad,
and said, “YOU don’t understand.”
And then started up his chariot
to get out of this land.
“Yes, it’s very wonderful,
that all of you learn Torah.
But you seem to have forgotten,
a crucial part of our mesorah.”
“What does he mean?
What’s he talking about?”
And they all looked bewildered,
and all began to shout.
Mashiach looked back and answered,
“The first place to start,
is to shut up your mouths,
and open up your heart.
To each of you, certain Yidden
seem too frum or too frei,
but all Yidden are beloved,
in the Aisbishter’s eye.”
And on his way up he shouted,
“IF you want me to come,
try working a little harder
on some ahavas chinam.”
CYZF Toronto 1992. This may be freely reproduced an distributed under
the following conditions:
1) That it is reproduced exactly as it appears here, including the heading,
all 30 stanzas, and this note;
2) it is distributed free of charge;
3) it is not used by any organization for promotional purposes. Any
breach of these conditions shall constitute gezel and a breach of
copyright.
Yitz,
1. The Ran says (Derasha 11) that hakpada on Tora evidentiary will lead to anarchy. Therefore , it is necessary to establish a government that will enact those laws that it deems necessary to keep public order. In fact, it can even impose the death penalty for minor offenses such as not going to where he is told to go or violating house arrest if he does so out of rebellion(Rambam Hilchot Melachim 3:5).
2. It is true that felony murder is not murder under Tora law but the government certainly has the right to consider it murder (ibid Halacha 10). The example of fire, while it is only a civil liability under Tora law, is, in my opinion, apt.Damaging by fire is liek damaging with one’s own hands. The fact that it is not a capital offense if he did not intend to murder (although he may well be considered close to meizid and thus he is thrown to the mercy of the goel hadam – and there is an opinion that a government officer has the din of goel hadam).
3. I disagree with your definition of ??? ????? ????? . It is certainly not the peshat. David HaMelech had both the ger Amaleki and two brothers who admitted killing Ish Boshet summarily executed (not even a trial) on their confession alone (Shmuel Bet 4:13) despite what Rambam says in Hilchot Sanhedrin 18:6 that we do not punish people on their confessions (not even malkot) as this may be the way out for someone who wants to die to commit suicide.
4. Even under Tora standards an innocent man might be executed. Navot was, in fact, executed according to the testimony of two witnesses. Ramban says (Devarim 19:19) that if Hashem allowed it the defendant must have been liable to the death penalty for something. In the case of Gary Graham that you once cited, as a Noahide he was certainly liable to the death penalty for his various crimes. This, of course, is not our cheshbon, but it seems that the POSSIBLY innocent men executed were guilty of various crimes for which they should have received the death penalty.
Torag613Torah, don’t be disingenuous. Given the context of trhis thread I think my intention is clear – and Hashem certainly knows it. On the other hand, according to Rambam non-Jews in EY must do national service so maybe I should include them.
I think the comparison between the different Protestant denominations and the different types of Orthodoxy is apt. The differences, at so far to my limited knowledge – it does not particularly interest me – are in nuances and shades which is also true among the different shades of Orthodoxy. In addition, Protestants move from denomination to denomination with ease depending on what is more convenient to their homes and socially appropriate for them. Similarly, all Orthodox Jews will daven in each others shuls and if someone moves to a community where there is a different type of Orthodox shul he will join it. As for assimilated Jews, I would compare them to expatriate Americans, who continue to be American citizens while being part of other countries.
Yitz,
1. There is no such thing as certainty. In any case,Rambam states (Hilchot Melachim 3:10) that the king (= government) may execute murderers without clear proof in order to fix the world according to the needs of the time.
2. In general, a Noahide is not executed for shogeg but the goel hadam may kill him (ibid 10:1). However, there are circumstances where he is close to meizid and executed (ibid). Felony murder may well be close to meizid. The case of the fire is even more severe as starting a fire is like shooting arrows. One who starts it is liable as if he did the deed with his own hands (Shulchan Aruch Choshen Mishpat 418:17). As fora Jewish criminal, the right of a court in chutz l’Aretz to punish him is dependent on whether we consider it to be a Noahide court of a court of a partnership between Jews and Noahides (see Rav Shachter’s article on tax evasion available on-line) and if we consider it to be a Noahide court if a Noahide government court may punish Jewish criminals (the main opinion seems to be yes – cf. Rabbi Bleich’s article I mentioned). There are also opinions that government officers are like the goel hadam (ibid), which would add to the heter. An Israeli court may certainly execute him if the government would decide that the times require it (Rambam Hilchot Rotzeach 2:4 – whether the times require it is a question, Rav Yisrael Rosen says yes, Rav Aviner says no).
I am davening that all the non-learners go into the army and help in the defense of the country.
Yitz, once again Rambam is referring to a bet din, not a government court. He says so explicitly (Hilchot Melachim 3:10). As for the rules pertaining to Noahide courts, I suggest that you read Rav Bleich’s comprehensive article on capital punishment in Noahide lawt in volume 2 of “Contemporary Halachic Problems”. You might also read Iggerot Moshe Choshen Mishpat 2:68. Nowhere does he limit the requirement to following Tora evidentiary rules – and he knew full well that American courts do not.
Yitz, see Hilchot Melachim 3:10 that the government can execute people without these evidentiary rules and even without clear evidence and even someone who is not liable to the death penalty such as an enemy who killed inadvertently in order to fix the world.He can even kill many in one day and leave them hanging for many days in order to instill fear and break the hand of evildoers. He can eevn execute people for minor offenses if need be (ibid Halacha 8). I refer you again to Shmuel Bet 1:10-17. As for the slippery slope argument, this is a logical fallacy. You can say that if one is allowed to kill an animal for food he will come to kill a human for fun. It simply does not hold water.
Yitz,
1. ?????? ??”? ??? ???????? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ????. ??? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??. ??? ?? ????? ?? ??????? ???????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ??????. ???? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? (?????’ ??) ???? ????? ?? ????? ?? ?? ????? ???. ???????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? .
Mitza (Lo Taaseh) 290 is that we should not reach a verdict by estiamtion even close to the truth such as where a pursuer chases someone into a house and the victim is found dying and his enemy is found over him with a bloody knife (this similar to the story of Shimon ben Shaatch in Sanhedrin 37b). The Sanhedrin shall not kill him on circmstantial evidence as there are not two witnesses who testify that they saw the killing as the Slomo HaMelech warns “do not kill one who innocent and righteous as I will not justify an evildoer” and the Mechilta says “and he pursues his fellow to kill him”.
Thus we see that Rambam is only referring to a bet din in a non-emergency proceeding (see Hilchot Sanhedrin 20:1 where he specifically says that this applies to a bet din).On the other hand, in Hilchot Sanhedrin 24:4 he says
?? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?????, ????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ????? ???
A bet din may flog one who is not liable to be flogged and kill one who is not liable to the death penalty, not to be over on Tora but to strengthen it, being they saw that people take it lightly. They should fence in and strengthen the matter as seems necessary to them? Rav Moshe (Iggerot Moshe Choshen Mishpat 2:68) extends this explicitly to a secular court.Form the story of David HaMelech and the ger Amaleki we see that the government may even execute a person on the sole basis of his confession despite what Rambam says in Hilchot Sanhedrin 18:6 (see Hilchot Melachim 3:9 with Or Sameach and Responsa Chatam Sofer Orech Chaim 208). For a wider discussion see ??? ????? ? ?? (in Hebrew) available on-line.
2. Regarding Graham, Harris County prosecutors filed an affidavit signed by the bailiff who escorted Graham from the courtroom after his death sentence, who heard him say, “Next time, I’m not going to leave any witnesses.” A prosecutor filed an affidavit stating that the bailiff related the comment to him within minutes of the time it was allegedly made.
Harris County District Attorney Johnny Holmes noted that Graham’s case was reviewed 35 times by the courts and that his conviction was never overturned. The Supreme Court rejected Graham’s appeal in May.
3.Prosecutors have been disbarred for misconduct.The general (but not absolute) immunity is necessary as otherwise nobody would want to be a prosecutor (as in Illinois nobody wanted to be a gyneclogist until the law was changed). Chazal also discuss various immunities that were given for this purpose. A cynic would say that their misconduct is balanced by defense misconduct.
4. I also went to law school and took law courses in HS and college.
One of the alternatives was a time-clock system. A quota system would estimate how many can reasonably be thought to be actually learning full-time and eliminate the possibility of foishtick. However, it seems that some compromise law will be enacted. According to the Arutz Sheva English website “Defense Minister Moshe Ya”alon has instructed the Perry Committee to prepare legislation that stating yeshiva students will receive an extra stipend for IDF enlistment, without setting an actual limit for the number of draft exemptions to be allocated to those who prefer to continue their studies. ‘An exemption limit like 1,800 prodigies, with forced enlistment for everyone else as proposed by Yesh Atid will only promote animosity and segregation. Haredim are already enlisting without coercion, so better to wait and see how the situation develops in the future, without provocations in the present’ explained Ya’alon”.
Yitz,
1. Rambam is talking about a bet din sitting as a regular (non-emergency) court. It does not apply to the secular authorities or a bet din using emergency powers. I refer you to my previous posts, which included references to Mishna Tora and the example of David HaMelech having the ger Amaleki summarily executed on his confession alone – which is inadmissible in a regular bet din proceeding.
2. The question of prosecutorial misconduct is a technical question, not a philosophical question – which is the topic of this thread. It certainly must be addressed in a manner that will root it out (as well as defense misconduct). I find it extremely strange that Bush refused to grant a new trial – and that the decision was his and not that of a court. I also find it extremely strange that the many appellate options, both to state and Federal courts, available were not used. On the Federal level (and I assume that the Boston Marathon case inspired this thread) the precautions are greater.The protocols for approving pursuit of the death penalty are quite rigorous (they appear on-line in the DOJ publication “The Federal Death Penalty System)and include the appointment of an experienced death penalty defender to the defense team IF the request for pursuing the death penalty is approved.
Akuperma, Rambam says (Hilchot Melachim 7:4)that in a milchemet mitzva (and there is general agreement that all of Israel’s wars gave been milchamot mitzva and that there is, in fact, a continuous milchemet mitzva – see there 5:1 and Ramban Sefer HaMitzvot Mitzvot that Rambam “forgot”) all go out to the army and that strong, aggressive military police are appointed to patrol with iron cutting implements which they may use to cut off the forelegs of deserters. Rav Tzvi Yehuda did say that those who learn only need go if the Minister of Defense decides that it is necessary but nobody is saying that those who really learn all day long should be drafted, only those who do not – and certainly those who are registered in yeshivot and kollelim but in reality either waste time or work in the underground economy.
Health, what about Chareidim who don’t sit and learn but are just registered?
Rambam says (Hilchot Melachim 4:10) that one of the functions of the central government is to raise Tora. Of course, if a yeshiva does not recognize the government it should not be funded – and it is hypocritical for it to take the money.
Health, so why was the Aguda atzeret cancelled for security reasons? For that matter, why does Rambam say that all go out to a milchemet mitzva?
Sam, we pasken like Rambam and the Rashbam that there is dina d’malchuta in EY (Shulchan Aruch Choshen Mishpat 369:6). According to the Chatam Sofer (Responsa Choshen Mishpat 44) even the Ran and the Rashba would agree regarding public safety and welfare laws.According to Rav Ovadia (Yechaveh Deah 5:4) and Rav Elaishiv (piskei Din Rabani’im v. 6 p. 376-381)there is dina d’malchuta dina regarding Medinat Yisrael.This is because the source is the agreement of the populace (Rambam Hilchot Gezeila v’Aveida 5:18 and Rashbam Baba Batra 54b d”h v’amar Shmuel dina d’malchuta dina).
Daniela,
1. What do you mean “The last time I know these questions being non-theoretical was in Europe during WW2”? B’h the opinion of ora is at least asked in both the US (where Orthodox Jewish groups and individuals submit amici curiae briefs that are accepted and some Supreme Court justices have quoted Chazal and poskim) and Israel (where Jewish law has official status as a source andis frequently quoted in court decisions). This obligates us to clarify these questions on a practical basis.
2. I did not write that bodies should be maimed only that it is permissible. I added that “this is a very severe step which should only be taken in an extreme situation after serious deliberation”.
3. Just as a point of information, the letter was most liely written to then NY governor Hugh Carey. Rav Moshe called him “sar hamedina” and not “hanasi”. At the time there was a move in the NYS legislature to reinstitute it which Carey vetoed. I do not recall any meausre being discussed at the Federal levl at that time.
Efshir and DY, then you would support a prosecutor and judge whose rav tells them that draft-dodgers should be jailed imprisoning someone whose rav told him to dodge the draft? Civil disobedience also implies the willingness to go to jail for one’s beliefs as did Gandhi and Martin Luther King (King wrote in “Letter from a Birmingham Jail”: “In no sense do I advocate evading or defying the law, as would the rabid segregationist. That would lead to anarchy. One who breaks an unjust law must do so openly, lovingly, and with a willingness to accept the penalty”). It then becomes a question of who is justified by the courts of public opinion and history. In some cases they won but in others they were crushed and forgotten (e.g. anti-WW1 protesters).
Daniela,
The “precise conditions” to which you refer only apply to a din Tora. The secular authorities (Rambam Hilchot Rotzeach 2:4 and Hilchot Melachim 3:6) or an official bet din acting under emergency powers (Shulchan Aruch Choshn Mishpat 2:1) may execute criminals without regard to these procedural rules (see Shemuel Bet 1:10-16).This is necessary when there is disrepect for the law in order to preserve public safety and order (Ran Derasha 11, Maharal Chiddushei Aggadot Makkot 7a). Thus, Rav Moshe rules (Iggerot Moshe Choshen Mishpat 2:68) that if someone takes murder lightly due to his cruelty or there is a general disregard for this heinous crime the authorities are obligated to institute the death penalty.Obviously this should be done as quickly as possible but not so quickly as to chance doing an injustice (Rambam Hilchot Sanhedrin 13:1).
As for maiming bodies of those executed, this is a very severe step which should only be taken in an extreme situation after serious deliberation. However, if the authorities deem necessary it would appear that it is permissible (see Shemuel Alef 18:25-27). It should be recalled that after Eichmann ym”s was executed his body was cremated and the ashes scattered over the Mediterranean Sea in order to prevent his grave from becoming a shrine for his followers.
Somebody once suggested to me that Rabbi Akiva and Rabbi Tarfon thought that they would have educated the public sufficiently that no one would commit a capital crime.As for acting naturally,Rav Kook says in “Orot” that we were given the Taryag mitzvot and non-Jews the Sheva Mitzvot (or according to some opinions also the mishpatim) because these are the natural ways of life for Jews and non-Jews. It follows that we should obey natural law as it was conveyed by Hashem.
VM,
1. At the very least person who is executed will never do it again. Even if he imprisoned he might murder. These things do happen.
2. It also gives him the opportunity for a kappara if he regrets his action.
3.I did see that there is a study that claims that the death penalty costs more than life imprisonment but I have my doubts. In the latter case the convict gets food, clothing, shelter, medical care, etc. at taxpayer expense perhaps for decades.In any case, I do not think that here we should make a bottom line decision. From what I know of the subject, game theory includes placing values on what cannot be valued in accounting, such as making a statement about the heinousness of murder and possibly preventing even one. Halachic considerations would, of course, override everything.
So far a criminal justice is concerned, there is no requirement for any government court, Jewish or non-Jewish, to conform to the standards of a sanhedrin. This was only for a time when Am Yisrael are all tzaddikim and crime is extremely rare (Maharal Chiddushei Aggadot Makkot 7a). In other times it is necessary for the government to establish its own standards in order to prevent anarchy (Ran Derasha 11 and Igerot Moshe Choshen Mishpat 2:68). This is especially true of murderers, who may be executed even where the Tora exempts them from punishment by the bet din (Rambam Hilchot Rotzeach 2:4 and Hilchot Melachim 9:14).Thus David HaMelech ordered the ger Amaleki executed on his confession alone (Shmuel Bet 1:14).This is not revenge but both for the protection of society (Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel’s response to Rabbi Akiva and Rabbi Tarfon, Mishna Makkot 2:10) and to enable the murderer to atone (by being executed).
Obviously, great care must be taken not to execute an innocent person but in a case where there is no doubt or virtually no doubt it is definitely in order.
So far as serving on a jury is concerned, in many cases they only rule on guilt or innocence and the judge decides the sentence.In any case, in view of the above I would think that it is davka a mitzva to serve on a jury in a criminal case.
I would say that if the talking is disturbing shushing is a tzorech of the tefilla.
What about the talkers (see Mishna Berura 124:27 for the seriousness of this aveira) and people who bring small children who are incapable of sitting quietly (ibid 98:3 and 28, 690:17)?
Health, here is what I posted in reply:
Member
Rav Aharon HaKohen
Tel Aviv, Eretz Yisrael
[This is because] [the Rav] [the proper way] [that is] [, the Chafetz Chaim,] and he would turn his eyes with contempt from any posters [disparaging Rav Kook -ed]).
[words which] [This is because] [And this is especially true regarding] this brilliant and pious [rav] [on this matter] and we must go out and rebuke this humiliation of the Torah, and join ourselves to the protest and great anger of the rabbis and sages of the Holy Land and the exile regarding these words of villainy. [Thus] we should not see [that which is] Holy destroyed, G-d Forbid.And may Hashem, may His Name be Blessed, remove the disgrace from the children of Israel and raise the honor of our Holy Torah. These are the words [of one] who writes with a wounded and agitated heart regarding the honor of our holy Torah which is [being] given over to disgrace.
Aharon HaKohen
If you remember, there was a suggestion that the CC said “Kook Shmook, it was Book”. It could also be that someone was talking about cooking so the CC said “kuch shmooch”.Or that he was denying that Rav Kook said something.
147, you are absolutely correct. Those who do not vote have only themselves to blame. Rav Kook and the Imrei Emmet warned about this. The pain of those things which need fixing is to get them to do teshuva on being grabbed by the Sin of the Spies (this is discussed by Rabbi Hillel Rivlin in the name of the Gra in “Kol HaTor” and Rav Teichtal in “Em HaBanim Semeicha” – so apparently the Satan in fact caused and continues to cause anti-Zionism and opposition to the State).
HaKatan, it is well known that some rabbanim speak in exaggerated language. Once the Satmar rebbe was upset because Rav Aharon Kotler called someone an am ha’aretz. He calmed down when someone told him “the rav says ‘am ha’aretz like the rebbe says ‘apikorus'”.
Health, you are simply falsifying history.
1.There was no stealing of babies or forcing people to abandon religion. I personally know someone whjo came from Jerba at that time and he and his family went to a religious moshav.
2.The state took in EVERYBODY
3. No, the Arabs are terrorists. They wantonly attack innocent civilians. And besides, they are wrong. This is not their land.
HaKatan,
1. It is not only incorrect that the Chafetz Chaim said “Kook schmook”, in fact, he walked out of the first Aguda convention when someone defamed Rav Kook, whom he held in very high esteem and, in fact, told to enter the rabbinate.It is true that some disagreed strongly with Rav Kook (and see Baba Meyzia 83b regarding what a rtalmid chacham can say and what an am ha’aretz can say)most esteemed him greatly. When Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach was a bachur he was a regular at Rav Kook’s seuda shelisheet and derasha and Rav Kook was his messader kiddushin. Rav Eliashiv called Rav Kook a gaon olam (and married a daughter of Rav Kook’s talmid chaver Rav Arye Levine).Rav Sonnenfeld joined him on his “teshuva tour” of the kibbutzim and moshavim and years later gave him a beracha that he should be Cohen Gadol.
2. As I have posted many times the vast majority of gedolim supported Zionism and certainly supported and continue to support the State.
3. When one of Rav Kook’s opponents saw him walking alone at night he reminded him that the Gemara says (Chullin 91a) that a talmid chacham should not do that because of the mezikin (Tosafot d”h mikan). Rav Kook replied tthat the mezikin of Yerushalayim did not consider him a talmid chacham.
Here is an interesting piece that appeared in “Daily Events” regarding how to achieve the highest for of tzedaka:
Texas has a balanced budget amendment. The recently passed 2013 budget cut both taxes and spending, and produced a record-setting $8 billion budget surplus. Congratulations to Governor Rick Perry. By contrast California is an insolvent state with a net worth of NEGATIVE $127.2 billion (according to the California State Auditor).
How about jobs? Feast your eyes on these statistics: Since 2007 one third of all jobs in America were created in Texas, and in the past decade, more jobs were created in Texas than in the other 49 states Combined.
The result is the best economy in America and the one thing Obama can NEVER make happen- robust job creation. Long live Wild West Cowboy Capitalism!.
Health,
1. You are correctt hat Rashi changes the girsa to “nogef”. It could be that a copyist said it out loud, mispronounced the gimmel (This is very common and the Mishna Berura warns against saying “yitkadal”. Similarly, Rav Soloveichik changes “kedusha” in birkat hamazon to “gedusha”, which is in line with the other adjectives describing Hashem’s hand) and then wrote what he heard himself say. However, I will wave mine and point out that one cannot bank one’s finger without moving it in some manner.
2. Ramban says in his Sefer HaMitzvot that we are obligated in our time to establish a state.Rambam says at the beginning of Hilchot Chanukka that we celebrate it because the Chashmonaim established a state.
3. If you call the early Zionists terrorists rather than freedom-fighters then you are obviously on the side of the British, who betrayed their mandate to establish a Jewish state, and the Arabs who murdered Jews – despite the Faisal-Weizman agreement in which the great-great grandfather of the present ruler of Jordan supported a Jewish state in EY.
4. The word “atrocities” is also a gross misrepresentation to the point of hotzaat shem ra. The fact of the matter is that the young, poor state took in twice the number its veteran citizens and gave them full citizenship immediately. No country does this. In the US one must wait at least five years and the Arab countries continue to keep their “brothers and sisters” who left EY in stateless refugee status.
You’re welcome again.
You’re welcome. Dr. Meir Tamari has also written several books. Position papers in Hebrew are available on the website of ???? ????? ????.Rav Yosef Yitzhak Lifshitz of the Shalem Center has also written a number of articles in English which are on-line.