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“MONEY FROM THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT A GIFT! WE PAY TAXES”. So if the allowances were kept at the old levels taxes would have to be raised even higher. Maybe it would be better to get rid of them entirely and save the administrative costs. At the very least, benefits should have an income test. As I pointed out in a previous post, the child allowances are given to ALL mothers who have Israeli resident status even if they are multi-millionaires.
Life in Israel is expensive but people seem to have many luxuries. Someone (such as myself) who does not have a cell phone is regarded with wonder. Computers are also nearly universal – even in the Chareidi community despite all of the rulings. Cars are common as are foreign vacations with some travel agents even offering “glatt kosher” trips (before the recent troubles I expected to see ads for Pesach seders in Egypt in addition to the ones in Europe and on cruises). How do they do it? They work – and very often both parents work. Those who do not want to work or want to work in a not very renumerative field (as do most Chareidim who work at something) have an obligation to first forego luxuries – including the expensive and annoying cell phones – before asking for public assistance.
First of all, the allowances go to all mothers regardless of family income. As for Herzog, he is a socialist and the socialists have always used government (= taxpayers’) money as bribes to stay in power and retain control over people. This is why the flip side is always that they reserve the good jobs for the party faithful (anashim/unzer menschen). Being self-supporting means being free.
Shraga,
1. I know about what I wrote regarding the Chareidi (and those National Religious who have been influenced by Chareidi Socialism) first-hand.
2. I saw the amounts of the cuts.The amounts per family are small. However, over all recipients (every mother who has the legal status of an Israeli resident regardless of income) the saving come to approximately NIS 2.7 billion approx.$750 million). If this small amount is so critical to you, why not cut out non-essentials, such as an Internet connection? If you and your family have cell phones you can cancel them too. They are every expensive and are often a nuisance.In addition, you might take a second job, your wife might work, etc.
YM, Yesh Atid since when is living on handouts the Tora way? On the contrary, Chazal call this “bread of shame”. The Tora way is to find people jobs. Tzedaka is for people who cannot work.
The cuts were part of a general need to cut the government budget and move responsibility to civil society. I have found that one of the problems these programs cause, besides (without regard to your individual case) encouraging people not to work, is that people shirk their duties to their fellows. They develop an attitude that “the state will take care of him” and so long as he is meeting his basic needs he does not need to be helped to find a decent job (many of which are filled by word of mouth, through connections, etc.). On the contrary, he, in the view of many, should be happy that he can more or less get along without having to work. This is especially true in the Chareidi community where there is an ideology that all men should learn full-time whether or not they are suited for it (or for what is available at their ages and subject to the restrictions of the laws covering various benefits).
Perhaps you should thank MK Lipman (and this without knowing what input he had and whether or not he was able to lower the cuts). The cuts may compel the powers who think they are in your community to do something.
Popa,giving a harsh sentence to someone for calling the prosecution anti-Semitic is certainly improper. However, people are people. Statements such as this alienate them and cause them to look unfavorably on the defendant.Not to mention that they may be more stringent davka to show that they cannot be cowed.
Eclipse,
The tzaddik was the Ashkenazi Rashash (Rav Shlomo Shtrassen of Vilna). He lent money to the man who returned it while he (the Rashash) was learning. The Rashash put it in his gemara, turned the page and forgot it. When he was going over his ledger he noticed that the loan was not marked “paid” so he took the man to a din Tora but dropped it when the borrower declared his willingness to swear as he did not want to cause him to take a “false” oath. Of course, everyone believed the Rashash and the man had to leave town. When he went back to the daf he saw the money and remembered. This shows that one must always get a receipt, even from a big talmid chacham.
Regarding the subject of this thread, Wendy Runge committed fraud. The sentence was excessive but not because she is Jewish. In recent years, white-collar defendants in general have received Draconian sentences, even for victimless crimes such as violating some obscure regulation. This is a pendulum swing due to major scandals in which peole who caused great economic harm received at the most a few years in “Club Fed”. Now the pendulum seems to be swinging back as everyone is aware of the injustice as well as social and economic costs of overcriminalization and oversentencing. Hopefully a middle ground will be found.
Toi, on the contrary, Rambam says (Hilchot Melachim 10:4) that Mashiach will fight Hashem’s wars. In other words, there will be an army and it will go all the way.
Likud (what a misnomer), success is that Abu Mazen walks out and the world wakes up. They do not want peace except on condition that we all pack up and leave.
Why are you supporting unrepentant anti-Semitic countries? Visit EY and do many mitzvot.
If the rabbanim would try to rein them in they would have to hide. The Atra Kadisha hooligans stoned Rav Eliashiv when he reached a compromise with the government on alleged Jewish graves in Pisgat Zeev. Imagine what they would do to someone of lesser stature.
At one time men in Israel did not use deodorant. When the first American bachur came to Ponevich and was seen to use deodorant some of the Israelis complaied to Rav Cahaneman that he was over on lo tilbash. Rav Cahaneman said “halavai that all of the bachurs would use it”.
Doniel, he is referring specifically about Selichot and the Yamim Noraim. He adds that any Jewish man is kosher so long as as he is acceptable to the congregation unlike what you wrote. BTW, there are also a few more lechatchila qualifications such as great in Tora and deeds and at least thirty.It would seem that a talmid chacham who is not married would be preferable to an am ha’aretz who is.
Doniel,
1. I did not find such a Rema. Please cite it’s location.
2. Actually, one who does not have children, irregardles of his marital staus, is ineligible to sit on capital cases, as is one who is extremely old (Rambam Hilchot Sanhedrin 3:2).
Akuperma,
You are partially correct and partially incorrect.
Originally professional litigators were unknown (although contract writing was an honorable profession – this was one of the original meanings of “sofer”). It was also considered wrong to give legal advice to a non-relative or even a relative in the case of a talmid chacham (Ketubot 85b-86a) as this would be to another person’s detriment. Being that in the anarchic situation that followed in the wake of the Roman persecutions many people were afraid to sue strongmen people were allowed to sell their claims to other strongmen. Eventually the rabbanim reluctantly allowed people to be represented by litigators. This was due to the fact that many people lacked halachic knowledge or were tongue-tied when speaking before dayanim. Today litigators, known as “toanim” or “toanim rabbani’im”, and appear in battei din of all streams.
As for general halachic advice, when everyone knew the level of knowledge of their fellows there was indeed no reason for a special certification (although originally Mosaic semicha was required to be a judge and apparently there was also some type of certification in Bavel as most Amoraim are referred to a “rav”). Later the increased impersonal and mobile nature of society as well as the desire to honor people who attained a certain degree of knowledge led to the bestowing of titles such as “moreinu”, “chaver” and “rav”. In the US there are also income tax distinctions that flow from a person being considered “clergy”.
Who cares? Those who follow, or at least respect, the designator of the title.
Katan, I think it is more correct to be the rav of an Orthodox shul that attracts people who are in danger or prospective BTs.As for justifying liberal Orthodoxy, eilu v’eilu. If it is within halachically justifiable bounds it is allowed in that community. One could similarly ask and answer how stringent Orthodoxy is allowed. In the tefilla upon entering the bet midrash we ask Hashem to save us from pronouncing tamei tahor and from pronouncing tahor tamei.
Doniel, Rav Soloveichik allowed some of his talmidim to be rabbis of Conservative temples if he felt that they could improve the situation. A liberal Orthodox rabbi may be just what some people need to stay or become shomer Shabbat, kashrut etc.
Akuperma,
1. You don’t seem to understand Hebrew. It’s ???”? It seems that a title is very important. Nobody complaims about “????? ????” and I imagine that nobody would claim about “pastoral counselor”.
2. Nobody wants to close down yeshivot. If you haven’t noticed, the Dati Leumi sector also has yeshivot. People want those who aren’t learning to do something productive for both the country and themselves. This will also benefit the yeshivot and the general Chareidi community as it will remove the burden of supporting them, get them off the streets and create a pool of financial contributors. The latter is especially important as the economic situation is drying up sources from abroad.
Pixelate, that is an exaggrration. While that is not the normative haalcha there are a few (mainly Sephardic) poskim who agree. Rav Ovadia says not to make an issue of it if one sees a community where it is done. In any case, when I asked a rav the question on the virtual floor he told me “min haShamayim”. However, there are poskim who rely on the AS. It’s a matter of mesoret.
Josh,
1. See Rambam Hilchot Melachim 5:1 and 7:7 that in a defensive war EVERYBODY goes.
2. What about all those who are registered but not learning full time (unless you count coffee makers, Internet cafes, libraries and wandering the streets).
The Mishna Berura (75:2) says that it is sufficient to cover the foreleg to the knee (he does not say if the knee is included).Of course, this also applies to when she is sitting. How much depends on the woman.
Who says that the state defines who is married? If it would be a purely private matter there would be no issue (beyond what they are doing but that is not enforceable other than in a Big Brother regime). Of course, that would also mean no government programs that differentiate between a spouse and a friend whom the person wants to be a beneficiary but that could be solved by allowing people to contractually designate anyone they please with their benefit reduced according to actuarial criteria. Similarly, a flat income tax could be enacted so that there would be no reason for a joint return. Alternately, any two people who can prove that they share a home, even if they are traditional flatmates, could designate themselves a household.
Biology, if he were random, obviously yes. However, if he was an expert in a certain secular field and he stated that a statement of Chazal in his field is incorrect I would have to say that Chazal relied on the secular experts of their time or that they were speaking allegorically or both.
Simcha, you must have great shelom bayit. BTW, there are also erev Shabbat kollelim for baalei battim.
Biology, you are correct. In fact, a certain feminist distorted yesterday’s daf which asks derisively if a chulda (rat) is a prophet. She said that it is talking about Chulda the Prophetess.However, that is only your second question, which seems rhetorical. The first question was “If someone challanges (sic) a Chazal, does that make him an apikorus?” The Maharshal challenged a Chazal and explained why he could do it.
The Chochmat Shlomo says (Sanhedrin 52b) that if there is no nafka mina l’dina it is permitted to disagree with the Gemara.
Littlefishy, Israel is not just another country. It is the representative of Am Yisrael and a refutation of the claims of other religions that Hashem c”v divorced us.Someone who actually prefers another country is over on the sin of the Spies.
To all those who love being in Galut: the Ohr Sameach said that if someone thinks that Berlin is his Yerushalayim Hashem will show him otherwise.
The problem is designating all those who are registered in yeshivot and kolelim as “tora schoalrs’. This is inflation in terminology that rivals the monetary inflations of post-WW1 Germany and post-WW2 Hungary. IMHO, the best solution would be to create militar batei midrash where participants would be required to pass exams given by the military rabbinate to prove their level of learning (when the Lakewood yeshiva had to weed out the goof-offs because of budget cuts it gave exams – ’nuff said). I would also require them to give shiurim to soldiers as part of their spiritual service.
In a letter written in Jaffa in 1905, Rav Kook responded to questions concerning evolution and the geological age of the world. He put forth four basic arguments:
1. Even to the ancients, it was well known that there were many periods that preceded our counting of nearly six thousand years for the current era. According to the Midrash (Bereishit Rabbah 3:7), “God built worlds and destroyed them,” before He created the universe as we know it. Even more astonishing, the Zohar (Vayikra 10a) states that there existed other species of human beings besides the ‘Adam’ who is mentioned in the Torah.
2. We must be careful not to regard current scientific theories as proven facts, even if they are widely accepted. Scientists are constantly raising new ideas, and all of the scientific explanations of our time may very well come to be laughed at in the future as imaginative drivel.
3. The fundamental belief of the Torah is that God created and governs the universe. The means and methods by which He acts, regardless of their complexity, are all tools of God, Whose wisdom is infinite. Sometimes we specifically mention these intermediate processes, and sometimes we simply say, ‘God formed’ or ‘God created.’
For example, the Torah writes about “the house that King Solomon built” (I Kings 6:2). The Torah does not go into the details of Solomon speaking with his advisors, who in turn instructed the architects, who gave the plans to the craftsmen, who managed and organized the actual building by the workers. It is enough to say, ‘Solomon built.’ The rest is understood, and is not important. So too, if God created life via the laws of evolution, these are details irrelevant to the Torah’s central message, namely, the ethical teaching of a world formed and governed by an involved Creator.
God limits revelations, even from the most brilliant and holiest prophets, according to the ability of that generation to absorb the information. For every idea and concept, there is significance to the hour of its disclosure. For example, if knowledge of the rotation of the Earth on its axis and around the sun had been revealed to primitive man, his courage and initiative may have been severely retarded by fear of falling. Why attempt to build tall buildings on top of an immense ball turning and whizzing through space at high velocity? Only after a certain intellectual maturity, and scientific understanding about gravity and other compensating forces, was humanity ready for this knowledge.
The same is true regarding spiritual and moral ideas. The Jewish people struggled greatly to explain the concept of Divine providence to the pagan world. This was not an easy idea to market. Of what interest should the actions of an insignificant human be to the Creator of the universe? Belief in the transcendental importance of our actions is a central principle in Judaism, and was disseminated throughout the world by her daughter religions. But if mankind had already been aware of the true dimensions of the cosmos, and the relatively tiny world that we inhabit, could this fundamental concept of Torah have had any chance in spreading? Only now, that we have greater confidence in our power and control over the forces of nature, is awareness of the grandiose scale of the universe not an impediment to these fundamental ethical values.
To summarize:
Ancient Jewish sources also refer to worlds that existed prior to the current era of six thousand years.
One should not assume that the latest scientific theories are eternal truths.
Some ideas are intentionally kept hidden, as the world may not be ready for them, either psychologically or morally.
(Gold from the Land of Israel pp. 23-25. Adapted from Igrot HaRe’iyah vol. I, pp. 105-107)
Actually, it’s questionable if he can sell it as it has not yet come into the world being that one’s portion is set when he leaves. While one can sell a devar shelo ba laolam through a shiabud guf (obligating himself to turn it over when he gets it) he wil no longer have a guf.
As Israel has a multi-party parliamentary system (unlike the two-party presidential system in the US) PMs have always had to keep coalition partners happy. Lapid’s party has enough members to bring down the government (again unlike in the US where only the extreme acts of impeachment and removal for “high crimes and misdemeanors” can bring down a president)so Netanyahu has to give him what he wants where it does not contradict his own priorities. In any case, much of Lapid’s program is Netanyahu’s so he also makes a good scapegoat.
Katan,
1. This was not a pesak but advice not to listen to a certain false messiah. He does not bring it in Mishna Tora. You cannot explain it away.
2. If it was unnecessary why were the British ym”s so intent on preventing their aliya? Obviously every additional Jew was of the utmost importance in the war.
3.Health merely reiterated old blood libels and relied on a mentally disturbed person who is in prison for violent crimes.
4.You opt to remain ignorant, and this does not change history.
5.I did not find that statement in either of his hakdamot.The closest was a modest statement that he did not come to settle a machloket among the gedolim. He also says that every setttlement in EY is a pekida of the Geula.
6. The Gemara says (Sanhedrin 98a – and see Rashi d”hmeguleh mizeh).
7.Your fantasies have been disproven, and I have tried to bring that for you. You are guilty of the sin of the spies. This was the whole thrust of Em HaBanim Semeicha and a long list of gedolim concur.
E-O-M, in Europe different professions had their own shuls. Thus a newcomer could find people who could help him find a job. If it is done after davening it is fine. Perhaps the young marrieds want to bring their babies and toddlers without being told to remove them when they create a disturbance. If so, it is fine with me that they should have their own minyanim. On the contrary, may Hashem bless and keep these minyanim – far away from mine.
Katan,
1. Then why doesn’t he mention them in Mishna Tora? Why doesn’t the Tur? Why doesn’t the Shulchan Aruch.
2. True but it was a calculated risk in time of war.
3. Several committees of inquiry, including two established by Likud governments, showed that there was no such policy. All but a few of the children were accounted for as having died. The tehran children were, in fact, saved form Soviet shmad.
4. You can make up whatever you want.
5. On the contrary, Zionism is a beracha on both a spiritual and physical level. Rav Soloveichik said that if not for the establishment of the State the Jews would have converted out in the national depression following the Holocaust (which could have been averted if not for anti-Zionism, as Rav Teichtal writes in Em HaBanim Semeicha – he equates it with the Sin of the Spies).
6. This is specifically said to be a sign of the Geula. There are none so blind as those who will not see.
7. The Three Oaths have not been binding for a long time, if they have ever been. I have proven this conclusively many times. I refer you to my previous posts on the subject.
Katan,
1. Rambam says that they are ??? ???. Moreover, he does not bring them in Mishna Tora. The Tor and Shulchan Aruch also do not bring them. They are not halacha.
2. The Patria was sunk by accident. The intent was to disable it so that the British ym”s could not send it back.
3. What you wrote about the Yemenites is nonsense.
4. I do not know of the this quote. In any case, many peopel have said many things about opposing factions. This says nothing about the movement or its function in history.
5. The oaths, if they were ver binding, were limited to a maximum of when Hashem obviates them through His hand in history. Those who do not see it are, as Rav Soloveichik termed it,”those whose eyes are shut”.
Katan,
1.Rav Chaim Vital specifically refers to our oath just before saying that :”the oath” is only for 1,000 years.
3. The answers to Rav Aviner are not answers. For example, he asks why previous generations did not try to conquer EY if it is a mitzva in our time. The answer is simple: they were anoosim. Jews did not receive military training and were barredfrom owning weapons. Thus whenever a riot broke out they had to beg or bribe the local nobleman to protect them.
4. The thesis of “Kol Dodi Dofek” is that Hashem has knocked.
Katan,
I looked up that site and his claim is simply not correct. I looked up Rav Chaim Vital’s exact statement in “Kol Kitvei HaArizal” (Rav Vidovski ed.p. 8) and he says “the time of the oath is until 1,000 years” and goes on to quote the Zohar in Vayera 4 117a in the name of Rabbi Yossi.It is clear that he is speaking about our oath.
the collective door of the Jewish people, six awakenings to call us to awaken and reach for greatness. These six knocks were the six miraculous events accompanying the establishment of
the State of Israel:
? The first knock was political; the alliance of the United States and USSR to vote for the existence of the Jewish State.
? The second was military; the victory of the tiny Jewish forces, handicapped by an arms embargo and massively outnumbered.
? The third was theological; the refutation of Notzri doctrine by demonstrating that the Jewish people will again be a vibrant player on the world stage.
? The fourth was sociological; the fact that Jews from around the world felt proud to be Jewish and free to re-engage with their Jewish identity.
? The fifth was an international change of attitude due to the birth of the State of Israel; the fact that Jews had a position of power and a homeland meant that Jewish blood could no
longer be spilt freely and without fear of retribution.
? The sixth and final knock was the influx of exiles; the return to Israel of Jews from across the
world.
HaKatan,
1, As the anti-Zionists brought them up they ansered.
2. Do you know anything about Jewish history? The Crusades (interestingly 1,000 years after the Churban), burning of Talmud in Paris, expulsions, Chmielnitzky massacres, blood libels, pogroms, Holocaust.
3. Maybe he was influenced for good. In any case, that is not an argument.
4.Who are they? The anti-Zionist forgeries were documented in “Forged Letters Against Zionism”.
5. It is not a kashia. It is a fact. Moroever, the head of the Aguda in EY, Rav Y.Y. Levin, signed the Declaration of Independence.
6. He referred to Chareidi Orthodoxy.He was right. It almost does not exist in the USand is falling apart in EY.
7. Who says that he said that about Rav Kook? Everyone agrees that he was a gaon olam, especially Rav Shlomo Zalman and Rav Eliashiv.
HaKatan and Benignunan,
1. Nmae these “early poskim” and cite the places where they make these statements. Rambam in “Iggeret Teiman” says explicitly
“derech mashal” and does not bring them in Mishna Tora.
2. The Oaths did not do a very good job of protecting us.This menas that the deal is off. Other opinions, such as Rav Chaim Vital’s, are snifim, as anyone who has learned Halacha knows.
3. If rav Soloveichik’s opinion is no raaya because he was a Zionist, the Satmar Rebbe’s and Brisker Rav’s are also not raayot as they were anti-Zionists.
4. The forgeries were committed by the anti-Zionists. They censored the Chatam Sofer’s statementr (Sukka 35a) that any work one does in EY is part of the mitzva of building hte land and forged various letters (see “Forged Letters Against Zionism”).
5. Anyone can make up terutzim regarding Rav Cahaneman flying the flag. The fact is, he flew it.
6. On the contrary, Rav Moshe allowed of flying the flag even in shul (although he did not approve of it in the shul itself – but he would have had no problem with it outside) and said that it was to show love for the state (Iggrot Moshe Orech Chaim 1:46). Rav Soloveichik said that it is kadosh.
7. You are the ones who have nothing on which to stand. You are simply looking straight at the truth and saying “no, no, it can’t be”.
HaKatan, we have discussed the Three oaths before but i am willing to repeat it 400 times if necessary.
1. They are not found in any of the Codes. Not in Ramabm, bot in the Tur and not in the Shulchan Aruch.Rav Asher Weiss says that something lie that is NOT halacha pesuka.
2. Rav Chaim Vital (introduction to “Etz HaChaim” says that they were only for 1,000 years.
3. The gentiles violated their part of the bargain repeatedly (Crusades, expulsions., Chmielnitzky massacres, Holocaust).See Sota 9b-10a and Rashi10a d’h huchal shevuato shel Avimelech)that this nullifies the whole deal
4. The Ohr Sameach wrote in a letter to the JNF (to which he contributed from his own pocket) that if they ever existed the San Remo Conference repealed them.
5. Rav Soloveichik says in “Kol Dodi Dofek” that the Hashem has called and nullified them.
6. Rav Kahneman flew the Israeli flag at Ponevich every Yom HaAtzmaut so obviously he did not hold like you.
BTW, being that we are discussing Ponevich, Rav Edelstein says that one who does not vote in the Israeli elections is a poresh m’darchei tzibbur.
HaKatan, I cannot explain kefira taht not exist.If you are referring to my statement that Serving Hashem as best he can means first of all doing the mitzva of yishuv haaretz, I take extreme umbrage at your denigration of Ramban.
Health, I was referring to those frum Jews abroad who have businesses and professions. So far as those here are concerned, if they are really learning they are also contributing. If not and they are not working, not.
HaKatan, nobody denies that it is a mitzva. The only question is if it is a kum asseh. Secondly nobody Orthodox is cholek on keriat shema that a complete Jewish life is only possible in EY (you do say keriat shema, don’t you?). In fact, according to Ramban (Vayikra 18:25) mitzvot are only done in Shmutz l’Aretz (see Rambam Hilchot Tumat Met 11:1-3) to keep from getting rusty. You are taking EY out of the Tora. This is kefira!
The Aruch HaShulchan (OC 124:12) agrees with Dr. Uri.
Health & Hakatan,
Every 70,000 new olim equals a Knesset seat. With all of the current religious members this would make a very strong plurality. Not to mention the economic strength that the olim would command.
Serving Hashem as best he can means first of all doing the mitzva of yishuv haaretz. It is only here that one can live a full Jewish life – it is explicit in keriat shema. It may be true thrat some are not able at the moment but the sad fact is that most do ot even think that aliya is an option under any circumstances. Even worse, some come here under phony baloney “student” visas and thus cannot vote. In effect, they are removing themselevs from the public.
The rest of your contentions don’t even deserve further answer. They are simply the words of Spies.
I know a rav who stopped the davening whenever someone talked. They realized that the more they talked the later they would get out.
The problems are in part hevelei Mashiach and part the fault of frum Jews who do not make aliya, become citizens and vote.
I heard that Rav Scheinberg said that today the koach of tuma is so strong that eevn a yeshiva bachur who goes OTD can be consdidered a tinok shenishba. Rav Kook compared the spirit of the times to an evil temptress (Sanhedrin 26b Tosafot d”h hechashud) in a letter to a rav whose sons became Communists.The Chazon Ish was also of the opinion that today’s non-observant Jews are tinokot shenishbu and this is also the opinion of Rav Asher Weiss.
Brisker, you can find it in the fifth section.
E-O-M, what about not pushing away kerovim? Maybe we can have special halfway-house shuls where people talk and there is a chazan to make them think that they are in a shul. However, IMHO (based on experience0 peopel are attracted to Judaism because they are looking for Judaism. They already have places to talk. If you want to read contemporary articles on this problem just google “talking in shul”.
Rav Asher Weiss says that something which is not mentioned by Rambam, the Tur or the Shulchan Aruch (and the 3 Oaths are not) is not halacha pesuka.Moreover, Rav Chaim Vital says that they were only for 1,000 years and Rav Meir Simcha says that the San Remo Conference repealed them. Moreover, the other nations violated their end of the bargain on many occasions.
Brisker, yes it would be better if they daven at home or even not at all. Zero is more than a negative number.