Forum Replies Created
My apologies. When I said I “speak for the Lakewood woman” I meant that among Lakewood women, there is a significant number who would agree with me. I did not mean that all Lakewood women would agree with me. And that’s ok. I just don’t like Joseph’s sweeping assumptions that ignore reality.
Yes I am a frum woman.
And Jospeh, you can thank Betty Freidan and Gloria Steinem for allowing something like Lakewood to ever exist. (I never read Gloria Stienem and only ever read some snipptes from Betty Freidan, so you cannot say I got this “tainted hashkafa” from them.)
Joseph, please dont miss the point. It’s not about you being the “frum” hashkafa and me being the “feminist apikorus”. It’s about making you aware that you have no idea what you talking about with your grand assupmtions about what makes women happy and how they think. And yes, I speak for the Lakewood wife too. When it comes to this, I’m pretty sure I know better than you.
“Talk to the women of the 60s and 70s, how career turned out to be a bust.”
Hahaha. I know you didn’t speak to any of them, because then you would suddenly be surprised to see how wrong your are.
“Many that gave up child bearing years for career and they hate their careers and wish they had more children.”
Maybe, maybe not. I know women who had few children because of their career and today are perfectly happy with their decision. I know women who juggle large families and a career and are happy with that decision. And I know MANY women who devoted their lives solely to raising children and today regret not having a career.
“Our grandmothers had enormous respect for their fathers and husbands. Not so the women of this generation or even the last generation.”
Koheles: 7:10: (I’ll skip the hebrew-I’m sure you know this pasuk) “Don’t say the days before us were better than today, because not from wisdom are you asking this…”
We know that women were forced to tolerate many abuses from men in the past and were not always able to do anything about it-that’s a historical fact… so does that for you translate into respect?? Besides, respect is something to be earned, not something you get automatically because you are male. If you or the men in your life are feeling disrespected, then earn that respect instead of trying to keep putting women “in their place”.
“Our grandmothers had enormous respect for their fathers and husbands. Not so the women of this generation or even the last generation. If someone doesn’t think that feeds into divorce and confusion among the youth, then they aren’t thinking.”
So you think people are getting divorced because women don’t respect men?
“It does not value family, love, community – all the stuff women are good at.”
Family? Ok, you want women to raise the children. Love? I can tell you aren’t married. That’s 50/50 the man and woman. Community? What?? You want women to remain at home raising children. Not being community leaders. Not going to shul all the time. Not being part of any communal organization or chas v’shalom speaking in front of men. Nor having careers where they are leaders because it will “erode their natural sensitivities and softness”.
“It glamorizes career, when most people hate their jobs.”
Really? I don’t know what kind of people you hang around. But most of my friends like their job/career.
Jospeh, you need a serious reality check.
I am not going to argue with you on the halachic/hashkafic plane because we have different frames of reference and it’s a waste of time.
But for heaven’s sake, stop saying all these things as if you know. You are just parroting things you are reading without ever stopping to see if they reflect reality.
Sit down with some women and speak to them. Hear them and listen to what they have to say. If you do this with an open mind, you will find that much of what you are saying in not true. Your image of “the happy housewife” is often a woman on anti-depressants who would do well with a job to lift her out of the repitition housekeeping often entails. You will find that in the 21st century, a women doesn’t necessarily have to choose between a career and family. You will find that the children of homes where the mother did not work are not necessarily better off. You will find women with high-powered careers who have large families and nurse their babies (it’s not thaaaat limiting). Maybe you don’t speak to women and that’s fine. But then stop speaking about them as if you know anything on the matter.
The comtemporary women is a train wreck? Care to explain what that means? Do you know any “comtemporary women”?
I’m not sure why I am wasting my time on this, after all, you ARE Jospeh. But I encourage you to critically analyze the things you read (not sure if your hashkafa allows for that but whatever) and see if they match with reality.
I retract. Girl not talking on the dates is not a red flag. It is a MAJOR red flag, IMO.
On three of the four dates the girl said nothing? Red flag.
This is not usual shyness. Effectively, he went on one date with her. And then got engaged.
I would be very concerned about the personality of someone who doesn’t speak on the first three dates. Is she perhaps selectively mute?
Also, it’s great that the parents get along, but that’s like 10% of the shidduch, and that’s being generous. What about the other 90%? Shared goals, attraction, liking the other’s peronality, communication, ability to navigate disagreements…?
It seems like he doesn’t know much about her at all. Why get engaged like that?
“Kol kevudah bas melech penima”
Pshat – it is saying that the glory/worth of a woman is in her internal characteristics, not her external beauty. Meaning, don’t get too caught up with a woman’s externals, it’s within her character that her essence is. It’s the same for men, but generally, externals count more in how women are viewed.
Why does the most simple explanation escape people?
Ummmm… A jew who cares…have you not noticed the financial crisis that is happening now in Israel, mainly in the sector where men learn in kollel? They are NOT managing.
Enough of these miracle-promises. People need to choose their lifestlye based on facts and reality.
FFBBT613 – What does your husband plan on doing after a few years of learning in kollel?
I agree that parents should have minimal shaychus in a shidduch. And yes, I agree with oomis that the current shidduch system infantalizes young men and women who are presumably ready to get married.
As for external apprearances, I know many beautiful, thin girls who cannot get dates because boys’ mothers asphyxiate their own sons by “deciding” what their sons need.
Young men – take control of your life and handle your own shidduchim.
Also, it wouldn’t hurt for everyone to understand that shidduchim works in our world in a way that’s analogous to how it works in the secular world. Think, “mate value”, attraction, etc… This is just a reality. So in the secular world a young man with a high-paying job has a high mate value and in the frum world a serious learner has a high mate value. So it’s different things that contribute to mate value, but the concept is the same.
It’s important to understand this so that you don’t fall into the trap of thinking that “frum people are above this”.
And as for attraction – the COUPLE needs to find eachother attractive. What the boys mother thinks is irrelevant.December 10, 2014 1:06 am at 1:06 am in reply to: Why Can't Women Get Modern Smicha and Become Rabbis? #1071742
“The emergence of women taking on men’s roles en masse is a very new and somewhat isolated phenomenon. It is of no coincidence that the push to have women take on men’s roles in our Orthodox Jewish culture happened at the exact particular time and place in history as the former. Our culture is particularly porous to out environment these days, and this is an obvious side effect.”
Why do you think this is a bad thing? You speak about this as if it is some sort of poison. Any new situation that emerges that isn’t spelled out black and white somewhere in the gemara or what not presents such a monstrous threat to hashkafa… and the gut reaction is to fight without even thinking about what you’re fighting.December 10, 2014 1:01 am at 1:01 am in reply to: Why Can't Women Get Modern Smicha and Become Rabbis? #1071741
“Curiosity: That picture looks awfully like it was taken in Eretz Mitzrayim, circa our slave age.”
Except that women today are happy to have more opportunity and contribute to society at large. Don’t make us out to be “nebach”s.
Just keep in mind that there are many couples out there who do not have good shalom bayis that are married to each other, and you wouldn’t necessarily know about it. How is that any better than someone who has divorced parents?
Not that you shouldn’t weigh divorced parents, but bear in mind that just because the parents are married – doesn’t mean they’re happily married.
I always wanted to be a doctor. But that’s not a profession for a frum girl, especially a really shtark one. Everyone told me instead to do PT, OT, ST, and of course – PA. They said PA would be perfect! Less school, you do the same things as a dcotor, and you have more time for family – my imaginary family because I wasn’t even married at the time. But l’chalchila, it would be best would be if I didn’t even go to college. Going to college would taint my neshama in certain ways, and my children just won’t be the same. And maybe I wouldn’t get as good of a zivug because my ruchniyus would definitely take a blow – even – of I didn’t see it.
How vulnerable we are in our youth. Not that there is anything wrong with any of the professions above, but if you davka want to be a doctor, those won’t cut it.
Well, be”h, I will be starting medical school this August.August 12, 2014 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm in reply to: Girl I want to get engaged to wants me to change my Rabbi #1047162
“On many issues it is a posek or rav that needs to make the decision. This is an issue of aseh lecho rav and should be decided on with his rav.”
No Lior, he needs to make the decision on his own. On a matter like this, rabbonim are for consulting, not for telling you what to do.
Reb Dovid is looking for a rav to tell him what to do and I’m poiting out that HE needs to make the decision.August 12, 2014 1:26 am at 1:26 am in reply to: Girl I want to get engaged to wants me to change my Rabbi #1047140
If all else is well between the two of you and this is the only real issue, I wouldn’t think it’s wise to drop the shidduch because of it.
It depends on what kind of rav you want him to be, but if he’s involved with her, she needs to be comfortable with him. I doubt she’ll care if he is only paskening shailos about kashrus and the like, but if it’s anything more personal or hashkafic, SHE needs to feel comfortable with him.
I actually think she handled it pretty well. She is not telling you that YOU have to in any way limit your sheichus to him. She is telling you that she is not comfortable having him as her mentor.
For the record, don’t rely on anyone to make the decision for you. Not this rav. Not any other Rav. Make sure you have the spine to make your own decisions.
not that I personally mind this discussion, but for those who are “super-senstitive” to tznius, this is exactly what I meant about these discussion not being tzanua… as Sam2 tries to evade what exactly what that form of “clothing” is referring to
I think that nitpicking on what “exaaaaactly” is and is not tznius…. is not tznius.
“How does someone walk, talk, or act b’tznius?”
You don’t walk or talk b’tznius. Rather, you avoid walking or talking in a way that isn’t tznius.
“Lowering standards is certainly not a segulah to invoke rachmei Shamaim.”
Apparently, it invoked rachamei shamayim for me. Happily married to a wonderful person.
Baskah, listen to peeople like me, who have tried it with success. You won’t go off the derech. Nothing will happen. It’s not any less tznius than going on a date. You don’t need the stamp of a shadchan to make the ecnounter kosher.
“if I have a stimulating Torah thought, my wife will often be the wrong person for me to turn to for sharing”
That’s ok. When my husband has a torah chiddush I’m the first person he turns to. And vice versa as well. You can think it’s odd. And my husband has some impressive credentials i will not list here.
As per the ramabam, he was portraying a sitation that existed in his days; duh…most women were not capable of learning for whatever reasons, such as, lack of education for women in general, tremendous amount of time needed to be spent on homemaking (not necessarily child-rearing, as in those times raising children was not considered a full-time endeavor)
But today things are DIFFERENT. I’d say that the amount of women who are capable of learning is not a minority anymore.
The rambam’s words are not absolute. Listen to his tone… he is saying that we don’t teach women BECAUSE their minds are not up it. NOT because it’s some absolute principle that needs to be adhered to.
By career, I mean a creative endeaor OTHER than the home and raising children. For me to be pre-occupied with running a home, and my husband agrees, is a waste of time. And by the way, I do a fantastic job at it. We are hoping, when the family gets larger, to have full-time help that takes care of as much of the household tasks as possible, so that I have more time to focus on my career which we think is more important than washing dishes. For me, running a home is like what cleaning a room is for a teenager. It needs to be done so you have the peace of mind that you are in a clean, organized environment. Period. There is nothing so holy about it. I am not the cohen gadol in the beis hamikdoes. And in no way is it something to be glorified as an occupation.
As per raising children, that’s different than household chores. But still, raising children is something we do as part of being wholesome human beings. But it’s an equal endeavor between a man and woman. If I end up spending more time with the children for whatever reasons, its for practical reasons that I can do something better. Not because in theory we believe that women should be involved in child-rearing the majority of the time.
People may find themselves being a full-time homemaker and parent at points in their life, but I don’t see that as an ideal to strive for.
did i understand correctly?
“I believe if you look you will find one that will suit you.” Oh definitely. But that may require venturing out of certian zones.
I find it odd that anyone sees intellectual advancement of any group as detrimental.
DY, basically, you are saying: “Well yeah, we needed to teach girls horaas shaa or what not, but now we need to deal with the negative consequences… in an ideal world, a woman wouldn’t WANT or feel the NEED to learn or aadvance herself in ways out of the home.”
“I do think its absurd to encourage women to develop intellectually for 18 years, and then to think they’ll be ok to just shut off and be satisfied with diaper-changing.”
This should not be absurd if it’s in their true nature to find fulfillment in these types of tasks.
If the thing is really a fish, it’ll like the water.
“We have opportunities to learn all the time every hour of the day there are shiurim, learning groups, every shul has a ladies Shabbos shiur. So no one can say we can’t learn or we should turn our brains off.”
Many of these shiurim, at least in my opinion, don’t count for much learning. They are inspirational talks meant to give you an emotional boost about torah or review of halachah that you can pick up on your own by reading a artscroll book. I’m glad you find them intellectually stimulating, but not everyone does.
“What was conflicting in the other thread was simple priorities were distorted (a women’s priority is her home) and that’s problematic and no Rav would endorse it.”
I did say that family and career, in my opinion, are equally important, not that one is more important than the other. Just wanted to clarify.
Furthermore, you do not know what every rav would say about people’s personal situations.
And by the way, you don’t need to be scared to refer to me. I am not insulted in the slightest.
“You can probably understand what is meant by finding a thread where an OP who is female ignores all enlightening, true responses to a misguided query, and insists on following her own faulty logic.”
Hmmmm… i wonder who you refering to.
not sure why that went through
“Rabbi Orlofsky and others I’ve heard as well have said that a woman needs to learn torah and mussar just to survive and not be drowned by tumah “in the air” nowadays “
dveykus, can u explain what he means by ‘tumah in the air nowadays’ and which type of torah-learning can serve as an antidote to this?
“stating that men and women are simply not different at all.”
In some areas, I think that is correct.
“You have not been honest”
How so? I do not understand how the topic veering off is dishonest. Would you please explain?
About the teaching: I do not teach anything I don’t believe or anything that would clash with the hashkafa of a school, so don’t worry about it so much. Of course some people on this thread wouldn’t want me teaching. Everything I’ve been saying is complete kefirah, right?
“But I suspect that you don’t really have sources.
Isuspect that your reply will be something along the line’s of I feel….So I feel….and that’s why I feel…..”
I meant that I have sources for the popular “Torah” hashkafos I am mentioning. I was not referring to anything else.
As for my own conclusions, some are based on sources. Some are not. But one thing I am sure about. The current “hashkafos” I am mentioning are not based on Torah any more than my puny own conclusions. The more I learn, the more I see how some frum hashkafos simply parrot contemporary hahkafos in a way that they lag behind. Once the hashkafa becomes part of the frum dogma, ppl use sources in ways they’ve never been used before to defend it.
For the clearest example of this that is relevant to this thread read the “Feminine Mystique” by Betty Freidan and then read all the polular hashkafa for women, from Rav Pincus (ko tomar l’bais yakov), to Rav Miller, the marriage books… and hebrew ones if u’d like (Ha’ish M’kadesh – guide for the married ben torah – he says that if your wife asks you what to make for dinner and you tell her: “Whatever you want…” you’re insulting her, because she sees her entire essence as nurturing you and giving you the oppotunty to learn torah; how dare you not take interest in something so important to her?”)
If you are astute and read critically, which I’m sure you do, you will notice a pattern. The jewish hashkafos simply imitate the non-jewish ones, albeit in a way that lags behind, say 10-20 years.
The non-jewish world proclaimed in the 50’s: “If a woman pursues a career agressively and does not devote her creative energies fully to the ‘career of the home’ she will be frustrated.” Read up. They were all into the “separate” spheres of men and women and homemaking was the ultimate fulfillment a woman can achieve.This was the opinion of many sociologists, psychologists and anthropologists.
Now come the frum 20 or more years later, but of course everything is dressed in frum language:
The “mehus” of the “ishah” is in the home. That’s her glorified “tafkid”. If she tried to be like a man (why intellectual endeavor and achievment are masculine I don’t know) she is messing with the “briah” [she will be frustrated]… a man has his tafkid, a woman has hers… and each needs to do his own to be happy”
Do you realize this is coming straight out of American magazines of the baby-boomer generation?
The ideas correlate WAY to closely for it to be coincindence.
I’m sorry to hear about your medical condition.
I didnt mean to poke at you that you live in a bubble, and I apologize if that came across harshly. But I think that if what I am expressing seems very unique or odd or you can’t understand why I am frustrated at these hahskafos which I think are no good, then perhaps you are not in touch with how women around you feel. You dont like the word feel. Okay, think.
You think I’m an oddball and “Nah, not many women are like that.” And that I have some sort of “problem” that I can’t accept my tafkid. But the MAJORITY of women I know express similar frustrations (of course, some do so very quietly because of peer pressure)in one way or another. You have been conditioned to think that most women will be happy/fulfilled being solely homemakers because it’s their “tevah”. But it’s just not true. Just like many men would feel unfulfilled having a career at home only, many women do. We are not all that different when it comes to this.
Do you think I am complaining because I have nothing to do with my life and I want to kvetch? or rebel?
No. I am frustrated at silly ways of thinking that stymie the intellectual and creative fulfillment of women for no good reason other then being stuck in the american mindset of the baby-boomer generation. And I want to make it heard because there are thousands more like me out there. Just look for them.
It’s you next-door neighbor who regrets every day that she didn’t finish college. It’s your cousin who never went to law school because when she dated her husband, he didn’t like the idea. It’s you friend wife who gave up her dream of becoming ______________ because _______________ (fill in with a million frum reasons). Somehow, three quarters of these reasons dont apply to men. And most women don’t look back and say: “Wow, I’m so happy I gave it up…” Usually, there’s a lot of brewing resentment.
We are fortunate to live in a generation where electricity and appliances greatly reduce the time women need to spend on homemaking. Unless, of course, we teach them that making three-course suppers and seven different kugels for shabboss in more important than pursuing an intellectual/creative outlet.
Having a career doesn’t mean you can’t have a family. I know many women who combine both and I truly respect them for both endeavors. But then again, they do not make seven kugels for shabboss.
Do you think I haven’t read/listened to tziporah heller? She was my teacher btw. Reb Heller does have some good things to say.
“Yiddishkeit has by far the most respect, acknowledges the intellect, wisdom (BINAH)…”
Acknowledges binah, yes.
Respects intellect? Hmmm. Not so sure about that. Let the gemara-learners fill you in on that.
Not that I am so bothered by this; it was probably the unfortuntate state of women in those days. But to perpetuate it as a legacy and strive to stunt intellect (in ANYONE)… as some hashkafos say… I don’t understand that.
“BYM, you’ve been making pretty big statements, and not backing them up at all.”
the fact that this thread has taken off with all this give and take clearly demostrates that people know exactly what I’m talking about when I discuss popular hashkafos. Otherwise, people would be like: “huh”?
If you want sources for anything ask me and will do my best to provide them.
When I say “it seems to me” I am trying to be polite. What I really mean behind these words is: “There’s this thing we are all taught that seems absolutely ___________ to me.” Fill in the blank depending on context. If you really want, I don’t need to be polite.
And it’s not just vague recollections… it’s having read lots and lots of hashkafa books, tapes, shiurim… and teaching limudie kodesh on a high school level (and sometimes beyond) for close to a decade. I think that passes for more than gut.
Like I said, the arguments that ensue when I bring up a point make it clear that you all know what I mean; not much ambiguity.
“So why is it so hard to grasp G-d created them differently to suit different role’s?”
Because what you mean by these words:
“However just as different people working in a company all have different tasks and all must be accomplished and done well for the company to thrive, man and woman have different tasks as part of the unit they are enjoined to form together…
Man and woman are physically different.
They are emotianally different.
They are different.”
DOES NOT match with reality. You are delegating roles to men and women based on something that does not match with the reality that EXISTS (outside of the bubble you know).
why is that so hard to understand?
have no fear, i’m not stuck in any rut and am well on a path I want to be. Thankfully, my husband is supportive, yes, supportive of me (in the same way I am supportive of him in his endeavors).
I just want everyone to stop feeding girls and women that if they don’t devote themselves completely to being an akeres bayis, they will be frustrated and end up unhappy. That is a lie. And that if you have a job it’s some auxilliary thing to help your husband or whatever – chas vesholom it should be an outlet for intellectul/creative energy.
“a person who sits and learns but never teaches torah or good middos to anyone else is valueless” is apikorsus and is obviously unsupported by the gemaras you referenced.”
Well, he proabably didn’t mean valueless. But it has less value than someone who teaches/writes/uses the Torah to affect others positively. One who learns alone, for himself, affects himseld, and maybe the circle of people around him indirectly. One who conciously makes an effort to affect others accomplishes much more.
And please don’t give me the whole thing about how “torah l’shma” (without the express purpose of becoming a rav, teacher etc…) is worth more than torah done with a purpose. I know you might think this is true, but we’re not here to rack up bonus points in some metaphysical level we cannot understand and see. And the sources about this kind of “torah lshma” being the most valuable are in a minority and some are quite tenuous.
“It seems to me that a woman’s ultimate accomplishment/purpose is the same as a man’s ultimate accomplishment/purpose.”
Thank you. I’ve been waiting anxiously to FINALLY hear someone say that. (“Adam” may refer to mankind, not a man. And mankind includes men and women.)
“bais yaakov maidel who puts down cleaning ladies”
I am the basic cleaning lady in my house. I don’t look down at them. I just think that that you shouldn’t encourage masses of people that being a housekeeper is ideal. (i.e. being a cleaning lady, baker, cook etc… is ideal – you should STRIVE to become that because it is the ultimate, as opposed to saying it has value.)
“Of course there are times, exceptions not even close to the amount that are bandied about now-a-days that one spouse failed in thier duties due to an inability to conquer or change thier middos in what ever respect and therfore a divorce was needed.”
How many unecessary divorces do you know of?
Of all the divorces I know, from close up, every single one was necessary and done after a long time of trying to work things out.
“Rabbi Miller often said that 99% of divorces were avoidable and unnecessary.”
I think this is an exaggeration.
Just wondering, are you married? (u do not need to share if you are uncomfortable) Because most married people would agree that not being married is a lot better than being in a marriage you hate. Unless there are children involved in which case the picture is very different.
“People talk about divorce as if it’s a bad thing because it is.
Some time’s it’s needed sadly.
It’s still a tragedy.
Sometimed operations are needed to remove a foot.
It is done to save a life.
It’s still a tragedy.”
Not in every case is it such a tragedy.
People who divorce because their spouse is abusive or something as bad as that, well, that’s like removing a cancer, not a limb. And they are very happy to be divorced.
Your cutting off a limb analogy is when things are not as bad as that and the couple still divorces.
“What we do from a “ruchniyus” perspective is what matters.”
A career is a tremendous outlet for ruchniyus. Probably the biggest one after learning torah.
“If someone feels ‘stuck’ in a certain lifestyle, that is their perception and not the reality because if they truly believed a different life was more appealing, they would follow it or else they are a wimp. There is no reason to feel bad for someone who lives in a community that you don’t respect, because if that person is living a certain life, most likely it is indicative of their beliefs. Bottom line is, you should not live in a community that you feel is offensive to you.
Have no fear. I am not stuck in a place I don’t like. But since I grew up with these hashkafos (more from my education than from my family), I still like to sort them out and hear what other people have to say. Also, it serves as a way for me to verify if people really DO think a certain way or if it is my biased perception. Sadly, I find that most of the time, yes, certain people think a certain way.
I don’t know about you, but once learn a topic well, five years later, I may not remember every detail, but I it’s not the same as never having learned it before.
your attitude is reminiscent of an attitude I used to have, one that’s quite common of “yeah, I’ll be able to pick up all the stuff I need as I go along…jewish ppl are smart…”
Were these admissions officers doctors?
Whatever. I’m not arguing that you need every detail in the prerequsiite subjects in med school. I AM arguing that you need the prerequisites because you need a solid understanding of the sciences before you venture into modern medicine which is built on the sciences. You need a frame into which you can place all you learn in medical school. You need that foundation because you will need to make decisions based not just on random facts, but based on an understanding of how things relate to eachother.
Like learning the theory behind an equation, not just memorizing the equation and plugging in numbers. Goodness. Please don’t become a doctor with this attitude.
logician, read my post again. thats what I said.
I cannot imagine normal shalom bayis with a husband a)INSISTING on this (that HE have final control of finances), b) assuming his wife does not agree or is uncomfrotable with it and c) she is the breadwinner.
anyone married disagree?
“The woman’s career and happiness are in her home – absolutely and entirely. Her husband, her children and her home are the expressions of her personality and her free will, and they are her chief forms of serving Hashem. The modern wife with a college degree and a job in secular professions is a misfit even in a non-Jewish home. The ideas of revolt against a husband’s authority and the unrealistic dream of equal leadership in the family, lead only to unhappiness and failure, and very frequently to divorce.”
I read almost all of Rabbi Avigdor Millers books. I recognize your quote from “Awake My Glory”.
I have a lot of respect for Rav Miller in many ways, but I disagree with him on this topic, as well as his stance on evolution (I will not elaborate why here).
He also says, for those of you who are incredulous that a Torah hashkafa encourages women to be submissive to their husbands:
“There cannot be two kings… the wife is submissive…” (Awake My Glory, pg 339)
Again, I do not agree. My husband and I happily follow a different dynamic. Please do not believe that anyone who does not follow this model is doomed to a failed marriage. It’s absolute nonsense.
Rising divorce rates happening in parallel to feminism shows you that people were no longer afraid to stay in unhappy marriages. Read a little history about the topic. To say marriages were necessarily happier before feminism is a joke. It was the frustration of women trapped in marriages they did not want because of economic, social and political reasons that drove the initial wave of feminism. And with the rights they gained they finally were able to break free.
Rabbi Avigdor Miller is essentially saying that marriages were happier before feminism. Sorry, but the historical data says otherwise. Again, people staying married does not tell you if they were HAPPILY married.
“no one can successfully do both”
Yiddishe taam: Don’t stereotype based on the people that you know. I know quite a few people who do both.
“But if you are simply not comfortable with this arrangement, do some research and deal with it.”
Logician, I do know the halachah – and you should know it too. If a woman does not want to hand her earnings over to her husband she has the option of not doing so by forfeiting his chiyuv to support her.
are you serious???
how would one understand how antibiotics work without knowing molecular biology?
how would one know anything in orthopedics without understanding torque, young’s modulus, and newton’s three laws…?
how would one know anything about an MRI without understanding how moving charged particles interact with a magnetic field?
how would one know anything about radioactive tracing without understanding half-lives and radioactivity?
how would one know anything about opthamology without an understanding of optics (physics)?
how drugs work without knowing basic organic chemistry?
neurology and nervous system without knowing general chemistry? (think polarization, depalarization)
respiration (aerobic and anaerobic) without knowing general chemistry?
The am haratzus of some frum people regarding general/secular knowledge is best embarrassing and at worst absolutely pitiful.
FFG, I find it insane that we even need to justify ourselves.
“Now what would happen if the graphic artist would walk in and attempt to take over the copy writer’s job and then the copy writer would take over the sale’s manager and the sale’s manager would take over the graphic artist’s job?”
What happens, when you reapetedly see that graphic artists became graphic artists because society and upbringing told them they should be graphic artists, but when they try to do something THEY want, based on ABILITIES, like become sales managers or copy writers, they do a great job at it. What happens when what I am saying applies to 80% of the graphic artists?
And if you think I am making this up, then you haven’t been around enough.
“Rabbi Avigdor Miller zt’l many times said that a working woman should hand her paycheck to her husband. Besides this being the halacha he said she should acknowledge that he’s in charge even if she is working.”
If my husband insited on doing this, I would probably insist that he not support me and I keep my own earnings. I cannot imagine a couple with even decent shalom bayis living this way. The money I earn/he earns goes into a JOINT account over which we BOTH have control. And my husband does not feel slighted in any way by this.
“If a frum woman is a teacher and teaches children some Torah, or is a nurse and saves someone’s life, of course there is intrinsic value to that! No one could possibly challenge that.”
Of course. Just to add, what if she is a lawyer? Or doctor? or CEO of a large company? Or any other job that has traditionally belonged to the “man’s” sphere. A job that requires competitiveness and ambition.
Does her contribution matter as much as a man in the same position?
Just curious to hear replies.
“So yes it was an anomaly that sadly for years Klal Yisroel lacked the requisite amount of people being dedicated to the Dvar Hashem.”
I cannot believe you said this. So we finally “got it right” while most of the previous generations were living a compromised Torah lifestyle?
“If teaching kids torah was important, I wouldn’t be paying my kids rebbe 10 dollars an hour.”
The fact that rebeim get paid so little, in my opnion, does show either a lack of respect for the job or it correlates with the expertise necessary for the job. Even if it is important, it is not a highly specialized skill if the pay is so little.
A babysitter does not “raise” your children. They supervise them for prescribed amounts of time.
“The need to advertise “the exalted women” may be due to what the feministic ideology has done”
Yes. But that doesn’t change what I said. If there was real intrinsic worth to washing dishes and homemaking tasks, there would be no need to dress it up. And I’d be paying my cleaning lady more than ten dollars an hour.
Golfer: “But we Jews have survived the millennia by following the Torah, which provides us with all the ideology we need. And the role of the woman is clearly defined”
I challenge you on that one. A mass system of women supporting men is clearly NOT based on any traditional structure we have seen before in Judaism. And I have absolutely no problem with that. But I have a problem with cherry-picking and only changing those things that fit in with what the current “frum” trend is (I am purposely avoiding group names). The kollel sytem is a huge break in “mesorah” . I see no reason why other things cannot change as well. I.E. the accompishment of a woman working out of the home having instrinsic value as well, as opposed to solely being a vehicle for her husband’s learning.
For a mass kollel system to exist, we encourage girls to get good degrees and work outside the home. We need that. Never mind that this trend was approximately parallel to the Feminist movement (coincidence? some of you will say “Hashem made it happen this way so that we can have people working in kollel).
But to actually give them intrisic credit for the work – that goes “against a woman’s role”. REALLY, she’s an akeres bayis. But she “works to support her husband’s learning.” It’s not her “main” tafkid.
I would argue that family and career are equally important for both a man and woman.
health, are you a medical doctor?
“Yiddishe Tam “By nature women are “motherly” My 3 year old runs to feed her baby doll it’s bottle while I’m feeding the baby. It’s a natural instinct.”
My son did this at 2 years old as well. Only he attempted to nurse the baby. Kids mimic what they see – that has nothing to do with gender.”
Exactly. I’ve seen my nephews pushing baby carriages and try to nurse dolls as well.
“Rabbi Tatz and Rabbi Gottleib both have highly intellectual and thorough tapes on the roles of men and women. They are worth getting and listening to because they explain many things being discussed here. “
Syag l’chochma, I haven’t heard all of them, but I’ve heard enough (and read enough) to know that they’re all communicating the same premises (I’m sure there are some exceptions). Some do it with better vocabulary and some are better at disguising the supportive and passive role of women with very nice, inspirational, poetic words.
But the more you dress up, adorn, and try sell the “exalted role of the Jewish women” the more I suspect they’re afraid women won’t buy it.
Kind of like all the extra advertising you need to sell a faulty product.
Where are all the lectures about “A Man’s Tafkid in the Home”?