CS

Neville if someone said Chabad is outstanding in its insularity and zionism and you pointed out that’s not true based on your experiences with various lubavitchers and what they’ve told you of their shittas, I wouldn’t accuse you of hating Chabad.

Same here. I think the Satmar are proud of their anti zionism and I personally think it’s a good thing that provides balance and is necessary so the irreligious idf top brass and government etc dont force anti Torah laws or exposure in the army etc.

I personally admire them for their chessed and have said so before. They really excel on frum chessed services and its very beautiful. Just because I point out that the girls have no clue of any Chassidus as a philosophy in Avodas Hashem, doesn’t mean I hate them cvs.

Neville : where did you see me attacking Satmar? I have nothing against them. Like I said I have Satmar friends

BTW np I think allot of progress has been made on understanding both sides – I know for one I understand the “velt” much better than I did from the beginning of the first thread. And I see some concepts have been cleared up such as what we mean by tzadik etc. I do think there still is some confusion and misunderstanding yet to be dispelled, and I hope you would agree with me.

5ish I’m sorry I don’t understand your post. Can you reword it again?

Oh yeah just to clarify one more thing they definitely knew their political shittos. I mean the Satmar family I stayed by in in meah shearim had a whole newspaper which was berating the tzionim. The girls also told me about an offshoot of Satmar that they think is crazy and how they add one more layer of clothing for every birthday (or so the joke goes they said.) they also definitely held of going to tishen and giving kvittlach. That doesn’t negate anything I’ve said. rso was saying that he takes offence to the use of the term chagas because they all have Toras Hachassidus just like we do m whereas my experience has shown me that chagas was a very applicable term – they hold of chassidishe hanhogos etc but don’t have a unique shitta of step by step Avodas Hashem like the Tanya for example.

Oh yeah I should tell you the was one exception (although not a contemporary Rebbe) the breslovers I’ve spoken to study their Rebbes teachings, view him as a tzadik, and I’ve seen signs in Israel claiming he’s moshiach too. (Although the breslovers I spoke to personally didn’t mention that)

Don’t get me wrong TT. Now that you’re hear already and you’ve roused a storm by the way you speak, we all expect you to answer the questions fully… Don’t disappear now…

Yr
“The problem is that cuckoo thought has penetrated chabad so much so that no one feels like standing up and saying something about. ”

Na the problem is all those people know good and well that their fellow chassidim have what to rely on even if they don’t hold that way (of course I don’t expect you to understand but fellow lubavitchers know what i mean). Chabad Rabbonim and mashpiim have no problem speaking their mind on right and wrong.

TT: the shmuel munkes story was your justification for your non ahavas yisrael ways but the truth is its not a good one. Because there the Alter Rebbe had just been saved from am almost death sentence and libel which was committed by the misnagdim who all supported it. So we can understand how he couldn’t help himself. Here you find many regular yidden whose “hisnagdus” is mostly due to ignorance (of classic sources on moshiach and Geula, of the Halachos on how to treat a Rebbe etc etc) and most of them are not even misnagdim in any way at all, just fellow frum yidden. So you’re comments are really wrong. Anyhow I think you know what i think by now…

As far as syags comment I should add if I’m saying I agree that I hope you are similarly “sickened to your stomach” when people make such type of comments about all lubavitchers and even our Rebbe. Otherwise it’s just playing partisan in a way I can sympathize with. Somehow I haven’t seem that reaction here at all…

Rso I would love to get to know more chassidishe yidden. In seminary I loved visiting meah shearim. I visited various tishen there to get more exposure to their world. I spent shabbos several times by a Satmar family there. I also know Satmar chassidim in williamsburg as well as heimishe yidden. I also taught some chassidishe yidden in high school. Unfortunately the only ones I personally know or have met have been chassidish in name only as far as learning Chassidus or viewing their Rebbe as we do, goes. They were as fascinated by me as I was by them and we definitely had some interesting conversations. But none of the type you assure me is out there if I can just get out of my “brainwashed” self. I’m still open to it of course. I love getting to know all segments of klal Yisrael. Just haven’t found other chassidim yet like those of which you speak who study their own Rebbe’s Chassidus and view their Rebbe like we do ours.

Rso I don’t see chagas any more derogatory than Poilish (used to differentiate Chabad from others based on original Location.). In fact I used Chagas after you did earlier in the thread.

Samthenylic something I do know oisgeputzen di knepplach does not mean we are free of sin. It means on a world wide scale we are ready for the Geula. And more than that in the topic I don’t know. Maybe sechel can ask around in his Yeshiva and get back to you although like I said it’s not purely a lubavitch thing. In the Gras times, people would fast monthly… I never hear of it today. I’ll get back to you if i find out more on the topic.

Btw I learned more last night on the topic of regular people and their struggles vs tzaddikim and their struggles. Corresponding to Yaakov and Yisrael. If that wasn’t as clear before and sounds interesting, I’ll be happy to write it up

Here’s an example:

1) Name Rav Y. Shusterman
2) location (right forgot that): Beverly Hills LA
3) Title: Rav and shliach
4) claim to fame / Description: Unusual as combines both being a well known and respected Rav as well as a shliach himself. Aka the shluchims Rav as shluchim call him from all over the world with varied halachic and hashkafic questions. Known for blunt, to the point answers.
5) Illustrative Anecdote: a couple who asked him to sort out their sholom bayis issues were voicing their complaints with each other. After hearing them out he told them their problem is that they’re on the maturity level of five year olds. They took this and the rest of his (more detailed) advice to heart, and it saved their marriage (they were both strong personalities and hadnt listened to more subtle types.)

Now I’d like too hand the floor over to….?

Or should I say by some posters attitudes on this forum. Don’t bother to approve if it’s better left not. Thanks 🙂

Me: “Rso: Imagine a goy came up to you and said do you believe “Atem kruim adam vain haakum korui adam?” Yes or no. That would not be very fair at all. Because what you mean by yes and what he understands by yes is very different.”

Rso “Not the same at all. If a goy would start a thread based on what HE believes in, I wouldn’t join it. If a Yid starts a thread that tries to distort what I believe in I would – and do and am – reply to it and try to get things straight.”

Na the equivalent to your example would be a fellow lubavitcher misrepresenting lubavitch. And yes me and sechel have objected to when we think we see that.

My example still stands.

Np
>>> they are an objective expressions of the seriousness with which other Rabbonim take his Torah. <<<

Agreed

Sechel

“I’m not sure where you are going with the “Ahavas Yisrael starts at home” thing, that doesn’t change the *fact* that a Shliach is a representative of the Rebbe, as appointed by Merkos L’Inyonei Chinuch. That’s not debatable, that’s the exact system the Rebbe established, as directed by R Hodakov, and later, by R Kotlarsky. I’m surprised that today’s PC culture of “one can identify as he wishes” seems to have gotten to some Lubavitchers in this context…”

What I mean is its easier to condemn fellow lubavitchers than try to be dan lkaf zechus. I saw a ksav yad of the Rebbe that said that “the yetzer hara saw how much were doing to bring moshiach, so he went and “layed himself on the doorstep” and sought to create machlokes in lubavitch. And r”l he succeeded.”

The expression oirois dtohu bkeilim dtikkun really captures who the Rebbe is and who we should strive to be. The Rebbe on the one hand was so normal – he could relate to everyone on their level (the video of the missionary who tried to missionize to the Rebbe by dollars, and how the Rebbe responded really brings this point home, as well as many others.) On the other hand, the Rebbe was a crazy revolutionary and said crazy things (in a context that somewhat normalised it.)

So of course you’ll have some chassidim who will tend more to the normal side and some who will tend towards the more revolutionary crazy side. I think in general the most important thing is to support each other, even if we don’t live with a certain statement, as long as we see a place for it to somehow be justified. We gotta stick together. Our post gimmel tammuz generation has done better than our parents in this regard I would think. May it continue!

Samthenylic

Its a good question but it’s everywhere not just lubavitch. Unless I’m mistaken and everyone still fasts on YK katan? I’m sure there’s am answer, not sure what it is though. Maybe someone else here would know

Coffee addict: Yeah although I’m not trying to make everyone think their derech is wrong, there are many ways of serving Hashem and am Yisraels diversity is what makes it so wonderful. Likewise with regards to myself.

Nvc 😂

Rso
“The only reason I’m telling you this is so that you won’t assume shtikah kehoda’ah if I don’t argue with CS 🙂”

😂 suppose well miss you. Although does anyone else feel this thread is getting kind of boring and the arguments are becoming mere nitpicking? Or is it just me and APY

@sechel
Of course its easy to condemn but it’s not the right thing to do to rush to condemn. Ahavas yisrael starts at home. At first I was thinking that shliach must be crazy I’ll just say he’s crazy. Then I thought wait a second. If he’s a shliach that means he devotes his life to helping all yidden. He should be schooled in ahavas yisrael by now. It’s quite out of character for a shliach to say something like that. So maybe there’s context im missing. If the context clarifies that it was a crazy statement im happy to say so. Torah teaches us not to rush to judge.

And np suits his name quite well. He is clearly not Chabad but has been real a mentch and focused on understanding what we’re saying instead of rushing to judge. I wish we were all like him. He was giving you a context where that statement could have been justifiable. No need to attack him for not rushing to attack me for not rushing to condemn a quote with no context.

Np
Good point about the Ari Zal etc. Like we said it’s not necessarily a list of must have but common pointers we see by those Torah leaders / tzaddikim

OK syag I’ll try once more.
(Np put it well as well) yes the Rebbe loved every Jew. No that doesn’t mean what you’re defining as ahavas yisrael. To understand more you can read my posts

Coffee addict
Btw I wasnt evading the mamash thing. We in lubavitch say mamash all the time and we mean its plain meaning. Even TT to show what he meant added “. Because typically we mean it in its plain sense

Yeshivish rockstar
“(A chabad shliach once told me “it’s better to be a frei yid who holds the rebbe’s moshiach than a snag who’s frum. CS, do you agree with that? Because, IMHO, that;s EXACTLY how xtianity got started.)”

That sounds quite incendiary and inflammatory. I’d love to hear the context as it makes a big difference to understanding the actual statement. Let’s take two extremes:

Extreme 1: the shliach is visiting your hometown, sees you on the street and identifies you as a “snag” as you put it, and says the above.

Extreme 2: you are visiting India and ask the local shliach to host and feed you. He does, and in the course of the meal, you tell him you think he’s an apikorus if he holds his Rebbe to be moshiach (curiously that doesn’t stop you from drinking the cholov Yisrael milk he personally milked for you, nor from munching on his wife’s cooking.) at that point he says the above.

Randomex
“Considering that no person perceived as chashuv by the non-Chabad
Orthodox world has ever done so, we’ll be in excellent company.”

I don’t agree with his statement at all. The Rebbe said no Jew will be left behind in general when moshiach comes, even the not frum..how much more so the frum. When the time comes for moshiach to finally redeem us, I’m sure Hashem will engineer it in such a way that everyone will gladly accept him