CS

Neville you got it on target. Some of our boys serving as bochurim shluchim in yeshivos and thus are role models for the bochurim will prefer the not tucked in shirt to convey that bochurim should not obsess with their appearance. The vast majority of the men do tuck in as it looks more mesudar. I guess they tuck.in for dates and after marriage. Of course there are bochurim who come from home where being mesudar in all areas is stressed so they will tuck in
and there are married men who don’t, mainly fiery Israelis. It’s not an obsession either way but there is a message there…

I guess another way this tone was set was the Rebbe wearing a tie but strongly encouraging his chassidim not to. Same idea behind.

Another note:admittedly, I haven’t learned mesilas yesharim insid, but that being said, I think you find the Rashi discouraging because you’re coverging two different levels together:

Meaning, (if I guess the context correctly), the mesilas yesharim is saying to focus on the pleasures and rewards of next world and make that the focus of our lives so we don’t get carried away by the temporary pleasures of this world and lose track of our mission and then be overwhelmingly embarrassed upstairs…

However that is helpful baby steps in Avodas Hashem because as pirkei avos says we shouldn’t be like those who serve the Master for reward but like those who don’t do it for reward.

Ie.this is a helpful train of thought when we are struggling with an immediate temptation so we don’t fall for it. But the end goal is not to be self servants focused on our own rewards but Hashem’s servants who ask ourselves what does He want from me? And internalise His desire for a G-dly world, as our own, and work to get there to do it for Him out of love and awe. When the focus isn’t on
self service, but on Hashem service, then the Rashi won’t be depressing

Another note: the Rashi may be referring to whoever enters gan Eden right away, which are those who don’t need to be scrubbed clean first in gehennom. The majority of us don’t fall into the truly righteous category and have some cleaning up to do before we can bask and enjoy the Shechina. However, if you are a frum Jew and do your best with the fall here and there, then the clean up isn’t so massive (the gemara gives a time limit I just forget if it’s 3, 9 or 12 months) and then you are free to enjoy the good you have created forever without the nasty reminder of the other stuff…

I think this is why Joseph cannot answer our question with any concrete example of what he means by subservient today: because all he likes to do is bring sources that show the husband is the head of the home, which we all agree with but then uses insulting language and insinuating that are not real or twisted out of context.

For example (here’s one source I’ll fully address aside from the Rambam one I addressed already ) he brings how Sara calls her husband master.
Yet he very well knows (unless he was just cherry picking sources and is ignorant of the rest of beraishis) that in beraishis 18:3 Avraham calls the three men he wants to invite as guests his masters. So this shows it was just a common expression of respect back then but would sound demeaning and degrading today.

So Joseph you want to know what the Torah is telling us? There should be mutual respect. Sara addressed her husband in a respectful manner by addressing him as if he was higher than her (just like he did with the Arab guests) and he, in another example, pitched her tent first. He converted the men, she, the women.

No one has an issue with this. We just don’t like when you twist your sources as you attempted to do above by just quoting Sara addressing Avraham as master and leaving it at that to imply that a woman is a status below a man and should be treated as such. As you do with all your sources.

OK I’ll do one more.

“As far as listening, Bava Metzia 59a says a husband who listens to his wife on matters of religion/ruchniyos issues will end up in gehenom”

True. The Torah also says to Avraham “whatever Sarah says, listen to her.”

I’m sure you knew that. It’s famous because it centers on the discussion of whether to send away yishmael and is simple chumash not an obscure gemara.
How do both make sense?

Simple. To me at least. (The Rebbe said the last part so I didn’t make it up but it’s also logical sense.)

Since the woman’s role is centered around the materialistic down to earth needs of her family, she tends to focus on that. So she will be pushing her husband towards materiality, to make more money say, instead of to learn more

So generally, the gemara was giving the good advice that a husband should be a head in spiritual matters of the home and not follow his wifes guidance.

But if she is a woman like Sara (and this is how all Jewish women will be by moshiachs times, the Rebbe adds which is why it is written in kabbala on the posuk of aishes chayil ateres baala, and nikeiva tosoveiv gever) then she will be able to see things on a loftier spiritual plane (with regards to
ruach hakodesh as rashi comments on that episode) and her husband should listen to her.

So it depends. Reading the memoirs of gluckel of hameln showed me this prototype of Jewish women. Simple emuna but very materialistic.

However today from what I see it seems to be the norm for many homes that the wives encourage the husbands to learn more, go to Minyan etc. especially with the education girls receive today which they didn’t have back then. It’s not just now, there have always been great women who led their husbands spiritually in the right direction. Sara and Avraham with yishmael. Rivkah with the brochos. Rachel and Rabbi Akiva. Etc.

So again what would be the lesson of the source you brought there? That if you are married to a wife whose values are materialistic, then don’t take her guidance in spiritual matters or that will lead you to gehennom. However even in such a situation she would have more of a say on house decorating, what house to live in etc because that’s more her domain.

@milhouse first of all nice to hear from you on here. Are you a newcomer?
Second of all thanks for providing a source that shows of a place where it seems that Jewish marriage is only the men being servile / slaves (to use Joseph terminology) aka obligated to the woman and where the woman doesn’t respond likewise. Just quoting that as reference to the roles of men and women in a Jewish marriage would of course be twisted but that’s exactly what Joseph does with his quotes on women / s obligations without context.

A source that showcases this relationship even with the areas that are the mans domain:

In a well known gemara (men can fill us in on the exact page) it discusses three questions a husband should ask his wife as
shabbos comes in. I think they are : have you separated challa? Maaser? Lit the candles?

In the ensuing discussion, one of the chachamim says that I always asked these questions in a very soft tone. Another responds of course! Otherwise I wouldn’t be listened to…

Divrei chachamim bnachas nishmain.

So even when the husband should be the master if he acts despicably, his wife will not respect him. The same is true of the reverse of course. Even though a husband is obligated to give his wife emotional support if she is cold and nasty she can’t expect that. The most either can do is file for divorce with a beis din who will examine who is at fault. But in a Jewish marriage both parties are expected to be mentchen and respect each other.

We may possibly be able to clear this up pretty quickly. Joseph what do you mean by women being subservient to their husbands that apply today (not in other centuries in different circumstances)?

@philosopher +1

Edit: So, not shoo

You’re right you didnt address it to me and honestly I’m perfectly happy to leave it to philosopher or anyone else who is willing to address. I saw he didn’t address the sources you posted so that’s why I said I can wroite up a response of needed, although im happy to leave it if people realise its just your view but not mainstream Judaism.

The reason why I constantly give my two cents about this is because I want to counteract several serious problems that can arise from these kind of posts:

1) a non Jew / not frum / traditional yid can read your post and come away with the mistaken understanding that Jewish men view and most therefore probably treat their wives and daughters and women in general like maidservants/ inferior
and not as equals.this is a chillul Hashem as it has never been the case among the Torah giants of today, nor is it Torah hashkafa.

2) a fresh baal/as teshuva / even a frum bais Yaakov maidel who never learned and isn’t able to learn, the sources you post, can come away with negative feelings towards Yiddishkeit for the same reason or negative feelings about her role in Am Yisrael if she is fooled into thinking her role is inferior.

3) a man who isn’t sufficiently learned / brought up in a frum environment can read your posts and base his hashkafa and attitude towards his wife etc. to be overcontrolling and then tell her this is Torah ( I know of a case like this -not from your posts but from the ideas within which he must have come across in some way. His wife didn’t know any better. When she eventually found out the truth they almost got divorced, and bh reconciled after he changed his behaviour.)

Shoo I really really think if after all the discussion on many threads something isn’t sitting right with you even though you see that its not mainstream hashkafa etc, you should not keep posting these kind of things, but should look up a hashkafa book on the matter which addresses all these sources and more (I can recommend one I know, I’m sure there are others).

Joseph your question/ obsession has been addressed many times on many threads. I don’t feel a need to answer again except that this is the Internet where people can think your unfortunate twisted perspective on men bashing women represents Yiddishkeit. It’s ironic that because you detest the male bashing in popular culture you constantly strive to engage in women bashing – except you try to cloak it in Torah hashkafa, which it isn’t and which the male bashing never attempts to do.
so I guess if anyone feels that they want me to address this again, I will just to clear it up.

Gutten moed everyone including Joseph. Nothing personal just don’t like seeing distortions represented as Torah. Especially where there is chillul Hashem involved.

“Chabadshlucha, I also asked about it being sung at a male-only event. (I gave some examples.) Based on your comment it appears you’d see that the same as singing shelo asani goy at a Jewish-only event”

No its different. It is advisable and admirable to keep ourselves apart from the goyim so that we can retain the extra kedusha and standards we are expected to have as Hashem’s holy nation. Therefore the song is OK even as the message is we are not goyim, as long as it is sung in appropriate settings as mentioned above.

However as explained above, men and women are two halves of one wholesome persona and unit, and as such such a song or celebration of male advantages is just weird and bad middos as it comes across as bashing the females, even if sung at a male only event.

We are meant to work together and strengthen each other, quietly thank Hashem for our unique maalos and appreciate the others strengths as well, not tout our superiority in one area or another and bash the other gender.

There is also plenty of material to make male bashing songs based on women’s maalos. But Torah isn’t there to promote gaava, egoism and destruction of others… Quite the opposite.

Deracheha darchei noam vchol nesovoseha *shalom*.

Not every Bracha is meant to be celebrated and sung. Some things we emphasise some we don’t although we appreciate them and even make a Bracha for them. I think a great example is the miracle of how Hashem makes our bodily functions work. We even have a Bracha for it – asher yatzar. However as of yet, no singer has decided to make this a wedding song, and there’s a reason why… Same here.

“Feminism has made us think that there are 2 kings in the home, that is a recipe for divorce. No organization has 2 ceo’s, the same goes for marriage”

Agreed. To understand how vhu yimshol bach goes together in a Torah marriage with women being referred to as his other half, or plag gufa in the Zohar, it is helpful to understand the difference between the brain and heart.

Both are equally vital and important ; a person cannot survive with missing either.

However if there is a conflict between the brain and heart, like, for example with the heart desiring a sugary treat, and the brain claiming it is not good for health, then the heart should follow the brain *because that is best for BOTH of them.*

In the Jewish home, the wife is the heart. She creates the atmosphere of the home, and imbues her family and environment with the heart of Simcha, emuna, bitachon, ahavas Hashem, Yiras Hashem, ahavas yisrael etc.

The husband is the brain of the home: he gives the spiritual guidance and direction for the family.

In a case of conflict, the husband should have the final say as he is better able to make decisions that are not influenced by emotion, but it is his achrayus to show and explain to his wife how this is for her best interests as well.

This is a Torah marriage. Not a king and slave. And not two battling kings.

A man and woman are opposites, eizer knegdo and only through their opposite inclinations and influence can healthy balance be achieved. (I can give examples on their opposite attributes and how they balance each other if desired.)

@haimy:
“Adam was created first, Hashem took his rib away and made Chava from it.”

Yes that is true and one interpretation of “tzelah” and one chazal about the creation of woman.

The other equally valid and true chazal is the one I mentioned above (which also sheds light on other pesukim).
The first one emphasises the quality of extra tznius that was invited in women more than men. The second teaches us that although the woman’s role is the receiver, and the more private role, it is equal to the mans and one is not complete without the other. They are two halves of one whole.

“Chava owes her life to Adam for sharing his rib.”

Last I checked Hashem created them both and this was the way He chose to create her. Adam did not create her, he didn’t even help.

“After Chava fed Adam from the Eta Hadaas Hashem Said “venue yimshol boch” he will rule over you.”

Yes, that is a curse not a good thing. Do you try to fulfil the verse in Torah “Vhoyisa meshuga?” It is and has been the unfortunate reality of the golus world. But we don’t need to sanction it the same we we aren’t dying to be persecuted although that is one of the curses of golus. In fact, we do and should do our best to defeat it. Jewish men throughout history have prided themselves on treating their wives with respect UNLIKE the goyim. I’m not sure where this attitude of pride in vhu yimshol bach comes from.

As chazal tell us “Isha kesheira oseh ritzon baalah”
Yes but that is unconnected to the above. He is supposed to set the spiritual standards high in the home, and in that case, she fulfils his will as a good Jewish wife. If not, with wisdom, she can oseh, recreate, his will to be more in line with Hashems.

“A wife is meant to be subservient to her husband as his eizer. He is to be treated as a king while he treats her as his queen.”

No issue with that. It’s true and has the Torah balance. He is King and she is Queen. Not he is spiritual, a potential malach, master and she is… A yente and servant. Some posts above read that way and its a distortion of Torah values.

“Feminism has made us think that there are 2 kings in the home, that is a recipe for divorce. No organization has 2 ceo’s, the same goes for marriage.

@slominer

They are distortions because a person reading it comes away with the impression that men are everything in Yiddishkeit and women are second place, merely yentas,servants or property etc. It’s not about quoting sources necessarily, it’s about the context they are quoted in.

For example I could list ten examples of women in the Torah and portray them in this way:

1) Hashem told Avraham to listen to everything Sarah says as her nevuah was greater. This was the first Jewish woman.

2) The women were the ones in whose merit we were redeemed from Mitzrayim not the men.

3) Chana is the one we learn how to daven from.

4) the men failed by chet haegel and the women stood strong.

5) the women were the first to donate to the building of the Mishkan.

6) the women all got to go into eretz Yisrael whereas that generation of men died because they chose to believe the 10 miraglims bad report while the women trusted Moshe rabbeinu.

7) Hashem told Moshe to speak to the women first regarding Matan Torah

8) the woman makes the child Jewish

9) the chachamim preferred Chulda over Yirmiyahu because, as a woman, they hoped she would be able to invoke more raisin from Hashem regarding the churban.

10) its in the merit of the women that moshiach will come.

Great. 10 sources. Now you tell me: by reading these sources does that depict the correct roles of men and women in Yiddishkeit? Or its a distortion by lack of context?

To conclude

@slominer posts like @jnn above create context and are not distortions.

Posts like “only a man can reach the level of malach” on a thread that is about a Brocha, not about malachim, are, in my opinion a manipulation of sources and distortion of Torah hashkafa as it doesn’t provide the why, or the corresponding quality in women which makes her unsuitable to reach the level of malach (escape the world), but better suited than men to make the physical world G-dly.

Cont.

Some time after I was married, I was wondering if this previously held conviction of mine by dating is a real Torah approach as it seems allot of the old fashioned shtetlach may have had these kind of marriages (complete with the nagging wife and abusive if am haaretz or porush type of Talmid chacham), and I was wondering if that was just an unfortunate symptom of harder times, or if only desiring a spouse you actually connect to is a symbol of non Jewish love marriage of ideology creeping into our world. So the following story cleared this up for me.

@discoverhashem
So sorry to hear that. Now that you are married, do you want tips for a happier marriage from those of us with happy marriages? Or were you just warning the op but have it covered with yourself?

@dovidbt @knaidlach you’re most welcome. And hatzlocha in your holy work as well – were all here as Hashem’s shluchim to the planet. Ksiva Vachasima Toiva lshana toiva umesuka.

@zahavasdad @yanky1998

“Pirkey Avos says: Al Tischabeir L’Rosho! There is no such thing as achdus with people who deny the Ikkarim such as reform and conservative ‘rabbi’s’ etc. since they have removed themselves from klal Yisroel. Of course it is a Mitzvah to bring back the members of these comgregations to Judaism but their leaders are machti es horabim and off limits.”

Thought you may find it interesting to know the Rebbe made a clear distinction between the reform ‘Rabbi’ as a clergy member, and as a person.

The Rebbe simultaneously encouraged shluchim to mekarev then as individual yidden when they talk to them, or invite them over,because theyre Hashem’s child who deserves to be brought back.

However, simultaneously, we are never to give legitimacy to the false ideologies by sitting with them on a panel of clergymen, entering their temples etc.

@dovidbt

As to your second situation, the Rabbi would be unable to attend, and would convey that in a nice polite way. Would depend on the person to see where it goes from there, whether he takes it as accepted because the Rabbi is frum so it makes sense, or they get into a discussion about loving every Jew doesn’t mean condoning wrong philosophies.

And sometimes people will be upset but that’s life.

I remember a story of a lady whose husband had paid a major amount towards building the Chabad house and she walked in on shabbos and told the Rabbi that the mechitza was too high and he needs to lower it. He said he wouldn’t and she said her husband wouldn’t donate anymore and walked out in a huff.

The amazing thing about being a shliach is that although it’s really difficult building a donor base in the beginning and fundraising, at the end of the day, the Rabbi doesn’t need to answer to any board so he can stick to his principles with allot less pressure than someone who stands to be fired although he may lose donors.

Agreed

Sorry op and Dovidbt. I spent some time yesterday writing up my favorite sources and how to/I apply, and it wasn’t posted I don’t know why :(. Still hoping this can get resolved as its quite a shame it didn’t come through when to the best of my knowledge, I didn’t break any rules

“It probably wont be such a shock since if we see whoever Moshiach is fighting a physical war and leading us we will probably know who it is and be able to point out”zehu Moshiach”! But ya it would definitely be exciting ; )”

Yes or no. Dovid Hamelech fought many years before the whole klal Yisrael accepted him. Also if the wars end up being fought on a spiritual realm then that could also be a surprise factor. Either way it definitely will be exciting and I’m so sick of waiting!!

“shlucha-you still didnt answer any of the questions…”

Yeah I’m not into pointless arguing or wasting time trying to hash things out with someone who’s mind is made up on the topic to begin with…forgive me if my assessment of you is wrong. I love exchanging ideas, and information, all Torah viewpoints. I don’t like needless arguing. I’ve already contributed allot to threads that discuss this sort of thing. It’s nice to just be able to post as a person a thought that occurred to me without
Every controversial topic being brought in needlessly. As a person I comment on threads I find relevant or interesting. Those include women, moshiach and any other Torah discussion I find relevant enough to me personally to comment on.

Also I was reading the kitov book our history on how David was despised by his own family and city because his own father and brothers thought he was a mamzer so they treated him badly and then everyone else did too. It was quite a shock to the family when he was anointed let alone the country’s reaction when he became king. I guess that’s why it took him so long to establish his kingship. If there was such a shock factor when it came to just the ancestor of moshiach, imagine how it’ll be by moshiach himself.