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The fake maven:
I was including both actually. I haven’t finished shoresh mitzvas hatefilla (its really long for those who are unaware I mean like 50+ pages) but have started a few times.As I wrote (just didn’t use the terms mimale and sovev) our appreciation of Hashem on a kochos level only reaches to atzilus ie mimale. However emuna which derives from chaya and is not one of the eser kochos hanefesh, relates to sovev, which is makif but still related to mimale, otherwise wouldn’t even be makif.
We can relate even to atzmus through the koach of mesiras nefesh, where we cannot separate ourselves from Hashem which shows we are one, but I didn’t detail that above.
In any case, I’ll admit I have not yet learned the hemshechim of the Rebbe Rashab. I would love to do that sometime. Please quote where you felt I misunderstood / am wrong, and prove it by writing up how the Rebbe Rashab contradicts what I said, (as I did with derech mitzvosecha instead of simply saying go look it up yourself.)
It does seem you may have misread my posts. I would love to be corrected if I’m wrong. Thanks.
I think how this is even hinted at all, is because in the phrase “Ma rabu maasecha Hashem, kulam bchochma asisa ” hiskalta could have replaced asisa, as by kulam we are anyway referencing the maasecha, and it would fit better linguisticly
DY I know there is the pshat of the posuk. Note I used the word hint. However, chachmei hakabala have seen this posuk also expresses a deeper truth which is as noted above- that the hekesh(conjugation?) of chochma to asiya denotes that to Hashem, the loftiest chochma is equal to physical action…
Post 5:
In case anyone was wondering, women usually care about practical things and I am not an exception. Why is all of this very clear to me?
Because we were learning in class about Hashem and how all the Sefiros etc are only applicable to the world of atzilus. After that, any description is a limitation. At some point, perhaps above kesser, Even saying He is unlimited is a limitation – He cannot be limited…
Thinking about this I got very upset. I realized that based on this, all the davening and personal relationship, appreciation for hashgacha protis and personal miracles etc, are all limited to a superficial (relatively speaking) and that means that I can only relate to Hashem on a superficial level, but we can’t be intimate on a core level. That got me really upset and I burst into tears. Eventually, thinking about it, I realized that that’s where emuna comes in, and that’s how we relate to Hashem on a higher more intimate level as well. At that. I calmed down.
By hp a few days later. I learned this idea in derech mitzvosecha when the Tzemach Tzedek was discussing the difference between the mitzvos of yedias and Emunas Hashem as explained above
Part 4:
Something else that has been brought up in this thread is if Hashem isn’t defined by chessed etc how do we matter to His essence which isn’t defined by giving etc whether it is for Him or for us?This question really at its core expresses: how much does Hashem really care for us and to what point do we really matter? If it’s a matter of giving, it would seem that at His essence He could care less about us, but once He lowers Himself to deal with the world, at that point (from atzilus onwards, ie from the point of the created sefiros) then what we do matters.
There is a posuk that expresses how our actions, whether mitzvos or aveiros, only reach so far. “V’im tzodakta, ma titen Lo?” Like at some point, who cares?
Kind of like the principal who sternly lectures the talmid for coming late and compliments the one who comes on time. This is very important for the talmids development : if the principal would show that in essence he could care less, or even more confusingly, one day yell at the Talmid for coming late, and the next day reward him for it, this would be very bad for the talmids development. So the principal has to show that it matters. However, at his core, the principal could really care less. He has loftier concerns on his mind.
But this would mean that all our hard work in Avodas Hashem, all our sacrifices, and really our very existence, only matter to a certain point, but at His core, he could care less cvs.
Luckily this is not the case. Hashem chose, with His Ultimate bechira chofshis, that He desires to care about us. And that we matter, all the way up. Our being matters. Because He chose so.
He chose with His bechira that He’s gonna get the ultimate enjoyment out of our victories and ultimate victory over evil. As the medrash says, “Nisave Lo Hkbh liyos Lo Yisbarech dira bitachtonim.
He chose us down here. Not the angels or all the higher spiritual realms. But us down here, that’s what matters.
Part 3:
I forgot to add that these two different ways of relating to Hashem are actually two different mitzvos:Mitzva 1 is to know Hashem – this is accomplished by thinking about Hashem’s Greatness in ways we can relate to based on our experience of our own chochma chessed etc. (You can only understand our relate to something within your experience. For example you can imagine an elephant in a subway because you know what the two are even though you haven’t seen both together. However someone who has never seen either can’t imagine both together.)
We use our knowledge of Hashem, which we only know by learning about it, to create love and fear of Him, another two mitzvos. Incidentally, these mitzvos are part of the 6 constant mitzvos which apply to women as well. Hence women have an obligation to try to understand as much as possible about Hashem to be able to love and fear Him.
The other mitzva is Believing in Hashem – separate mitzvah. This relates to what we can’t understand.
Interestingly, the Tzemach Tzedek points out that the more we learn about Hashem, the more we understand, and the more we realise what there is that we can’t understand. Ie we take things that were previously in the realm of emuna and now we understand it because we learned and thought about it. So now our yedias Hashem is greater, and our Emunas Hashem jumps to the next level.
OK I’m done. Hope to see the five posts approved soon (preferably in order ;)) and looking forward to follow up 🙂
Part 2: (many times my later post gets posted before my first one.)
If we could only relate to Hashem through the mediums of chessed. Like trying to be kind as He is kind (although here too there is a vast difference as His chessed is unlimited and ours is limited, but at least it’s a defined midda we have so we can relate to the idea and also know what’s right and wrong and how to grow), chochma etc, as we do in davening, thanking Hashem for His kindness, praising Him by limited attributes that we can appreciate, and asking His help in mundane really insignificant matters that matter to us, we would have a pretty shallow relationship looking at things from a broader perspective where all the Sefiros for Hashem, are just as low as action. (Whereas by us, intellect is the loftiest expression and capacity we have, and action is the lowest, by Hashem they are both equally low as is hinted to in the posuk “kulam bchochma asisa” where chochma is described as physical action.)
Luckily we have another way of relating to Hashem that He granted us (goyim don’t have this) which is our inborn emuna which believes and relates to Hashem even where we don’t understand and can have no comprehension, where darkness is light and He can combine two extremes that make no sense together etc.
(Goyim can appreciate and relate to Hashem based on logical observation of the wonders of nature etc. which is the first level described above. The name or description Hashem goes by for this is Elokim – which is the same gematria as Hateva. The higher level that we relate to solely through emuna, Hashem uses the name Hevaya for, “Shabbos Hayom laHevaya” the idea of shabbos and miracles and only yidden relate to this.)
The Tzemach Tzedek in derech mitzvosecha addresses these subjects at length. I can write a bit up that i think may dispel a bit of the confusion and feel free to ask on whatever point of contention remains (im not really seeing any one clear question):
Hashem is One simple essence, Who expresses Himself to His creations through different mediums He created
in order for us to relate to Him. These are the ten sefiros of chochma bina daas chessed gevura tiferes etc.By using these mediums to relate to us, we in turn are able to grow spiritually as He implanted in us the same 10 soul powers. Thus we can fulfill the mitzva of “lhidamos lo” as the Rambam states, “Ma Hu rachum af ata thei rachum” etc. Hashem shows us throughout the Torah “Personal” examples of how to refine ourselves, such as visiting the sick, and seeing the situation up close before passing judgment, to quote a few examples in recent parshas.
We can also call Him rachum and chanun etc even though He, at His essence is not defined or limited by either, because it is He Himself, His essence, expressing itself through the midda of chessed or gevura etc.
Just as it’s the same light coming through glass stained windows, although you perceive it in different colours.
To be continued
Ziongate “On top of that, until bar mitzvah the child has a yetzer harah but not yetzer tov. Why?”
Because otherwise there would be no struggle… Which would defeat the purpose of our creation. The point of our being, ever since chet etz hadaas when good and bad were mixed together, is to separate the good from the bad by our everyday choices. Every time we struggle but reject the bad we expect are grappling with, it makes the world a more G-dly place.
Every adult knows that bad choices (often) result in instant gratification and long term suffering. Good choices may require sacrifice in the short term but bring long term happiness and satisfaction. For every mature person then, it should be a no brainer what to choose, which would mean we don’t have a choice as there is only one credible choice.
Why do we struggle then and resultantly elevate the world? Because in our youth, for the first 12-13 years, we were accustomed to living by instant gratification and desiring that which looks good on the surface. When we get introduced to a new deeper perspective as a bar / bas mitzvah, we struggle to turn that way of living around.But the purpose is the struggle (for most people. Tzaddikim are a different category.) and most people were created for the sole purpose of struggling with the bad and overcoming it on many different levels. This avoda itself gives Hashem much much nachas (see my earlier post regarding Yaakov and esav etc)
” How about gentiles, who have souls and can gain access to Olam Haba?”
Gentiles and Jews have different roles, different levels of responsibility and accountability, and correspondingly, different privileges as well.
Jews are accountable to make the world a G-dly place. We have to live up to higher standards to do that and are held accountable if we don’t. Gentiles are accountable to make the world a functional and moral society (which is a necessary prerequisite for the Jews role.)
As fit for their role, Jews were granted an immortal and G-dly soul which affects their continuum as a nation, and as
individuals. Gentiles have a soul formed in the “image of G-d” but not G-dly or immortal to the same extent as the Jewish soul.We see this physically and spiritually, already now. Physically, there are many ancient nations which are long gone, whereas the Jews, against all odds, are still around and always will be.
Spiritually, since non Jews were granted the element of free choice with regards to their 7 commands, they can earn olam haba, spiritual afterlife, as well, but not to the same extent as Jews.
With regards to the finish line as you put it, in moshiachs times, there will be nations around, and those nations will serve Hashem, as foretold in many nevuos, amongst them, “Then I will turn over to the nations a refined language to all call out in the Name of Hashem…” “And the nations will flock to it (the Holy Temple.)”
However, afaik, individual resurrection and immortality only applies to the Jews as a nation, and as individuals.
“Are you saying that everyone reaches the finish line, that every Jewish soul ultimately redeems itself?”
Yes. We have been promised Kol Yisrael yesh lahem chelek lolam haba. As for individual reincarnations and thus bodies, reason why we have incarnations is because each soul needs to fulfill all 613 commandments (except for the kings mitzvos which he performs on behalf of the nation) and thereby refine its portion in the world (divided among all Jewish souls) its soul powers and body parts (which also amount to 613.)
When this isn’t finished, the soul reincarnates into another body to continue the process. The refined aspects of the soul remain with the body that it refined them in, and that body is reincarnated with that part of the soul.
Don’t worry about remaining with an incomplete soul as all Jews are in truth one large soul (that Adam and Yaakov possessed) and any part contains all the rest ( as reflected in the body- which is a proper vessel to the soul- where every cell contains the entire dna – my note).
(See shaarei Geula yemos hamoshiach, page Reish ches tzaddik, for additional information (also fns 15 and 16) the relevant sources in shaar gagilgulim, the Zohar etc.)
Will reply after shabbos iyh
Yes avit that was great. I will add that I learned that bechira chofshis amounts to two choices Hashem provided us (we can’t create further options):
1) to ascend
2) to descend temporarily to allow for greater ascent later on.This applies both on an individual and world scale. Hashem’s plan is that the world/people will end up as a place / vessels permeated with G-dliness. The question is only which path of the two we take.
Not to mention maaser and chomesh
I wonder how much would even be left over once a winning frum family put aside funds for tuition for 8+ kids, a house and weddings… That makes it more likely that it would just be a Brocha and not ruin their lives by encouraging them to be non productive.
That’s one answer… There is another based on my understanding of what I learnt but since I can’t point it out in one neatly packaged rashi etc im hesitant to explain it if you find the other satisfactory.
Yup yup
OK I can try. My gut reaction points me to the Rashi on vayinochem Hashem al haadam asher asa” as addressing your question but I haven’t fully fleshed it out in my mind yet. Lmk if this helps.
The Rashi discusses an apikores who came to one of our chachamim and asked/ stated that this posuk proves that Hashem is unaware of the future. Otherwise why would He mourn what man did? He could have prevented it from the beginning.
The chacham answered, have you ever had a baby boy? He said yes. “So, what did you do?” “I celebrated and partied with everyone.” “Wait a second didn’t you know he will die someday? Why celebrate?” “Right now its a joyful event so we rejoice, at a time of mourning we mourn.” “So same with Hashem. He doesn’t not create people because of the future crimes they’ll commit. He knows, but takes things one step at a time.”
Your question to me is a form of the bechira question just in the opposite way it is usually asked. Ie. If Hashem foresees everything why doesn’t He mix in with our free choice by stopping it from the beginning?
In any case I can attempt to go deeper than this, lmk if this is satisfactory.
Rebyid23, (doingmybest)
No that’s not the point at all. At least my point. Its definitely easier to have a real deep relationship with Hashem when one is poor as you need to cry to Him to provide you with your needs. No one wants to be in that position. It’s a position people are placed in. The ideal is not to have to rely on such circumstances to remember Hashem constantly. I’ve had to go through some of this recently (I was told that when I reach a higher spiritual level than it won’t be this way) so it’s been on my mind…In laskerns defense, I think he really is on point. Your question is really a form of the bechira chofshis question. And the other thing also answered your question. There are other answers but this was one and I don’t think he deserved you yelling at home when he was trying to be helpful.
@neville he certainly isn’t says the female lubavitcher!
Hmm maybe rethink what you’re looking to keep up with, there is a chasidishe saying that works for me in this regard : the reason we have two eyes is one to look down and one to look up.
How so? In physical matters we should look at those who have less than us and praise and thank Hashem for giving us more. In spiritual matters we should look up at others who are holding at a higher level than we are and strive to be like them, and not be satisfied with our current spiritual state.
When things are this way, its all good and we’re happy. The problems start when people reverse them (admittedly that’s the norm which is why the teaching exists…)
Yeah Joseph, your second comment was true. I find it easier to be poor personally, but I don’t like relying on crutches. Maybe soon I’ll reach the level where I can be rich. And Joseph your first comment made me laugh. Good one.
Avik: it is possible especially as I was not there personally although the people came home saying the above. I don’t generally defend murderers or their ilk so I have no problem being proven wrong :). In any case I just thought it was an interesting note and perspective to introduce to the discussion
Joseph and avik: to be of the caliber of pinchas one would have to be a normal (healthy emotionally) person who usually abhors violence and in this one case his tremendous yiras shomayim would not allow him to countenance an outrageous chillul Hashem, so he went against his normally peaceful nature to defend Hashem’s honour. I don’t think anyone would classify shlissel as such as he had been in jail just before, aside from questions on his mental health.
However an act of pinchas denotes an act that would normally be abhorrent but in this specific case is justified to the the extreme circumstances : in this case having an unashamedly proud immoral parade in the heart of the holy city.
Avik he was not referring to thus instance rather by the stabbing at the immoral parade in the heart of the holy city. Sorry I thought that was obvious. Glad I clarified.
Joseph, I appreciate the compliment but I have not been attacked. I think the reason is that people find it unacceptable when they sense someone is out to look for the bad in other communities or enjoy violence and are eager to use Torah to condone extremism, cause conflict or strife, violence or judgment when in truth the ways of Torah are peaceful. In truth we are meant to overlook individual faults of others and focus on where we need to grow so that Hashem will look at klal Yisrael in the same light.
However sometimes urgent situations arise which may necessitate extreme actions, even cause conflict by taking a stand against what is popular and what the community pretends is fine when it isn’t.
Since there are such legitimate situations which are not ideal, people get all the more upset when people who just enjoy violence and conflict try to guise their own character flaw by finding a source in Torah to condone it.
Generally the Rebbe’s approach was not to condone extremism, conflict or violence (pinchas was a rare instance that happened once, not an everyday desert
occurrence), and the Rebbe constantly looked and empowered the good in every Jew and person although there were situations where the Rebbe had to take a strong stand against popular notions.I and the others were quite surprised when we heard of the Ravs words, because he is not an extremist who enjoys violence / machlokes at all and is a very special holy person. Precisely because it was so out of character it opened us to seeing that this may be the truth in this situation, an exception to the usual rule.
No and that’s one reason why picking up the girl on the date (especially with safety reasons involved) seems very much in line with Jewish values and not goyishe values that have crept in. (Another reason is that the man is playing the leader/ protector, also in line with Jewish values).
Avik I will freely admit that I didn’t hear it myself but heard it from someone who was there. If I remember correctly(and there was no broken telephone) what was stated was that this was an act of pinchas, not that the man himself was like pinchas. There’s a distinction.
Yeah the Rav said it was an act of pinchas in shul the week after it happened
@ mods did my post with the answer come through?
The Alter Rebbe explains it to mean (in light of the contradicting gemara) that it means he created people who have the potential to be tzaddikim (and thus are different from others from a very young age) and those who have a greater potential to be reshaim due to their stronger yetzer / affinity for wordly things which can easily lead them to be coarser people and even reshaim.
However the intention of creating these people is so that they will overcome their yetzer for Hashem in a way that is more meaningful than even a tzaddiks Avodas Hashem in a way because he doesn’t have these struggles so its not as big of a deal when he overcomes it.
(This corresponds to the yoshev ohel vs. Ish sodeh of esav and Yaakov and why Hashem gifted yitzchak and Rivkah with esav. I can elaborate if desired.)
Hashem likes two types of avoda symbolized by the maatamim Yitzchak requested: there’s sweet food = Avodas hatzaddikim and food that starts out bitter and ends up sweet like onions = Avodas baalei teshuva who transform darkness and bitterness into light and sweet by overcoming their yetzer hara.
This should answer op
Joseph why is one more goyish than the other? Both are accepted cultural norms and both aren’t the way yidden married (no dating) in the time of chazal.
Correction not perek 14. I was thinking of 13, and 13 addresses how one can view themselves as a rasha without getting depressed or apathetic (which was brought up as a question in the same perek as this one.)
Regardless the Alter Rebbe does answer this question and I’ll be happy to write it up soon
Well op is true. Baba basra perek beis if my memory doesn’t fail me says Ribbono shel Olam borosa tzaddikim borosa reshaim.
The Alter Rebbe asks on this in perek aleph : vhu tzaddik vrasha lo komar- echoing baishatalmuder (except the ignorant part because it is a gemara).
He also answers the question later on in perek 14
Although with my username CS I should clarify that this is highly unusual and is not the typical Chabad approach at all (to condone extremism in the name of kanaus). That’s why it stuck with me until today.
Unless it was justified by the admiring of perversion in our times. Was pinchas a murderer? Yes but he was chareidi. I didn’t come up with this one. The Rav was Rav Dovid Schochet of Toronto – not a regular person at all. Aside from being a Rav, he interprets dreams and the Rebbe told him to give brachos on simchas Torah. He’s predicted how the year will go then, truthfully, for people I know, in his Brocha. In other circles he would probably be a Rebbe himself. In any case since he said it I can respect that it may be the truth.
There is a well known respected Rav who called this man a pinchas. So could be he is chareidi…
“The Palistinians only had a problem with the Jews living there when the Jews started taking control of the land.”
The 1929 massacre disproves this.
“They did live there before the land was taken over and if they were given a say in how it should be divided up I truly believe that more moderate voices would prevail.”
So what happened to the partition plan in 1948
Another problem with your native American comparison : the people of NY are innocent civilians who never harmed the native Americans. The same cannot be said of the Arabs living in Israel who constantly attack and murder Jews at the first opportunity or gleefully celebrate when innocent Jews are murdered. Also there are no current native Americans living in NY so what gives them a right to kick out the civilians there who did nothing to them because their ancestors were kicked out? That is another hole. There were always Jews living in EY abd the Arabs attacked them before they even had a state (1929 chevron massacre for one)
So here’s your analogy rewritten : the people of NY constantly attack indigenous native Americans simply because they don’t want them living there. One day the native Americans rise up and expel the new Yorkers.
Yes that would be great. You would expect the new Yorkers to have faced the same lynchings the NA had undergone beforehand at the hand of the new Yorkers. They are lucky to just get off with expulsion.
Also the only counterpoint you have made to the incentivized immigration plan is that no one will take them. 2 counter points to that:
A) what makes you so certain no one will take them? Has it ever been tried? Especially if they’re coming with money given to them by Israel they are good additions to poor or rich Arab countries besides for the Arab loving Sweden, Canada eu etc? It is definitely worth a try.
Besides the main reasons why the Arab countries keep them in refugee camps is to further the rage against Israel but also because economically they make allot of money off all the aid given to them. Close unrwa and all aid, give the Arabs money to emigrate and most probably they’ll sing a different tune.
B) A only applies to Arabs who pose a demographic threat but not a security risk. For the violent terrorists and their supporters, we can just expel them. They are a danger to our lives and if they are penniless wanderers for the rest of their lives – they deserve it. Their actions caused it.
Besides the Arab countries didn’t waste a second before expelling their peaceful, non terrorist, Jewish populations
as soon as the state was founded. They certainly didn’t worry to see who would take them in. Non peaceful terrorists certainly do not deserve any better.In any case i think I will now heed nevilles advice as it seems Joseph himself isn’t interested in discussion (as hasn’t responded to the points brought in response to him, just brings more sources to prove things that no halachic authority today endorses) and I mainly respond to these twisted posts to begin with to show that this is not Torah hashkafa for the sake of those people who may come across this and be misled / result in unnecessary chillul Hashem.
Joseph if you post these things just to troll and generate more posts for the coffee room please consider choosing a topic less likely to create a chillul Hashem.
Yes in that society it was dishonourable to go out unless there was an urgent cause, as it was a man’s world. In today’s society it is arguably dishonour able to make women stay inside with no good use of her time. Especially as women are expected to be seen out and about. Even if you would argue she shouldn’t be out without cause, there are many causes today that warrant her going out on a day to day basis so there’s no argument there.
Regarding Sara Imeinu that was in her home (maybe a separate tent) the equivalent today would be not walking into a mans shiur being hosted in your living room and yes tznius women stay out of mens sections etc.
“CS & laskern, you’re entirely incorrect. I have the Torah, Chazal and literally all the poskim on my side (as demonstrated and cited) whereas you only have your boich svaras on why things are or should be different and changed today than all of Jewish history from Avrohom Avinu until relatively very recently.”
Joseph firstly I referenced many other sources for what I was saying. Secondly its completely irrelevant. I can cite sources on polygamy and divorce without consent from today till tomorrow all over Torah etc. It makes not a whit of a difference since Rabbeinu Gershom made the gezeira against both. There is the basis and core values of halacha which never change but halacha very much adapts to circumstances and many times varies for different situations and people. What matters is what the masses of frum yidden do as supported by the poskim. The reasoning behind it we can discuss as I have attempted above. But the fact you can quote many sources from past times its irrelevant when the Torah authorities of today (and people with common sense who see context) don’t see it as an issue.
As a matter of fact, the Rebbe held that the feminist revolution was in essence a positive thing and is preparing is for the times of moshiach which are also known to be more feminine. (He also stressed that the current expression of the feminist revolution was misguided because it encouraged women to be like men whereas true feminism is empowering and admiring women who live and value feminine values such as family over careers etc.)
Neville apparently you didn’t understand the nuance
in what I was saying. At least I think so otherwise I don’t understand your post. I guess you’re thinking that if I admit that society is less modest/ moral today than in the time of the mechaber, then that means egalitarian society =immorality which means that Joseph is right.But it doesn’t. The same way male dominated society doesn’t equal modesty (as seen from the ancient Egyptians, babylonians, Romans etc) egalitarian society does not automatically equal immorality and immodesty.
We see this very well in the frum community where women freely go out, but don’t have long chatty conversations with men in the street and certainly don’t attend mixed parties etc. There are mens events and women’s concerts and events, there are shabbos tables where both sit together. There is a Yeshiva I know where there is a woman’s office for the women who work there. There are women’s businesses and there are frum midwives and nurses who work
in regular hospitals. Where exactly to draw the boundaries is subject to the decisions of contemporary poskim who unilaterally agree on some things (like men not attending a womens show) and some things where they disagree (like whether to use girls voices in videos – not singing.) but egalitarian society can definitely work very well with modesty- and no one considers a woman leaving the house every day in this society, immodest000646 me and avik have already answered your questions and questioned your conclusions and facts. Repeating the same thing again doesn’t warrant a new response. The only new thing I will reiterate is that all the Arabs together – Israeli Arabs, gaza and West Bank – amount to 5.8 million (at most. They do tend to inflate their numbers for the sake of foreign aid etc so not necessarily true,) Jews number over 6.5 million. Those are the numbers as you say whether you like it or not.
And we wouldn’t have all of them living in Israel according to to the plan mentioned. And yes it is perfectly fine to expel people who would like to lynch you (which isn’t all but a significant portion). They can go live in other like minded violent Arab countries.
Although if you really have nostalgia for the past Joseph as opposed to the majority of us who are grateful for the new reality we live in, all is not lost.
You can join lev tahor or move to Iran where you may even be able to marry 3 wives. And they only leave the house in a burka. Just keep in mind before you make your choice that your wife will only wear black shapeless clothes. If that’s what you want then by all means go aheadJoseph yes since the mechaber modesty has decreased. That has to do more with the mingling of women and men and the lack of importance placed on dressing and acting modestly and yes that should change. But women being treated as human beings and as equal members of society is a good thing.
Also another way the world has changed for the better is that we now have many machines that do menial work. This has made a huge difference in everyone’s quality of life. In the mechabers time, it was normal for men to be away from home for months at a time working morning to night. For women this has made a massive difference to their workload.
Laundry machines, fridges and freezers (no need to shop everyday and cook from scratch) dishwashers save hours of time. In the past, since there was enough work to keep a woman busy at home from morning to night, it would give her a bad reputation if she was seen outside, without good reason for hours everyday.
Nowadays we also have Torah education for all boys and girls as well and women have time to become knowledgeable in Torah themselves which was mostly unthinkable throughout history.
Historically women have always been encouraged to leave the home for good reasons among them : taking / accompanying their children / husbands to and from school / beis midrash (mentioned in Rambam and gemara), working so their husbands can learn / to help out with parnassa (the maharals wife was a shopkeeper), simchos or other social events (mentioned by the Rambam as one of the needs a husband must allow his wife to leave the house for.
Just now more women are able to do more of that on a day to day basis. And women actually have time to smile at their kids as they play with them in the park.
The Rambam mentions that even if a woman can hire out all her work because her husband is wealthy she should not sit idle all day as it is bad for her character. Today when women have many hours a week they could spare from house work, there certainly is no inyan to sitting in the house staring at the wall.
Rather they take part in more of the above more often.
So tznius of course applues nowadays just the discussion is about WHERE she goes, WHO and HOW she talks to people, WHAT environment she works in etc instead of how often she leaves the house
I think any sane pertain is thrilled with these modern inventions that free up so much time to devote to better things and would not advocate returning to a time where you had to work day and night – men outside the house, women in the house just for survival.
Neville so comment about the hats. Seems like they’re all covered.
Joseph exactly the opposite. The world has changed for the better in this way. It is better that the mere presence of a woman in the street is not provocative any longer and she does not risk being kidnapped by some random noble (paroh by Sarah and onwards) etc. That was the world atmosphere that these halachos were applicable to. I hope you don’t disagree. Many things still need to change but this is one way the world has changed for the better.
In any case its not we don’t hold by halacha anymore cvs. It’s just the circumstances have changed so the halacha is different and that is why you won’t find any Rav today talking about how often the woman should leave the home.
Oh my Phil, I think you take him too seriously. Your really believed that?!